These are three pictures of the famous stele of hammurabi
it's a black diorite stone carved with the entire law code of babylonian on the lower half and a representation of shamash and the king Hammurabi on the top
Hammurabi was known as a great lawmaker and famous for a speech he made on his accession. "I have come to rule over the black headed ones."
Hammurabi started off his life as a soldier and rose through the ranks.
The scene depicts Shamash (seated) giving Hammurabi the scroll of law. Which meant basically that he had a god given right to make it.

Question is why is he depicted as a negro on the most famous depiction of him in existence

i have attached the stele picture and a close up of the hammurabi figures nose and one of the god shamash so you have an aqualine nose for comparison.

We know 100% that Hammurabi wasn't negro. He is depicted with a normal aqualine nose in all other art from the same period

Not sure what to make of this, it seems from the pics you posted it would be hard to tell one way or another if it's a black or white older gent ..

I have a uncle with a nose just like the one in the pics you posted and he's as white as they come.

Pictures are only representations of a person's likeness done by the perspective of the artist. Perhaps the stone is done to this likeness (the nose), because Hummerabi was established as a kind man to the artist, and the artist wanted to represent him as a friend to the people, like one of them...? Is this stone black in nature?

The piece of art is monochrome; what makes you assume that he's supposed to be negro? The art isn't supposed to be perfectly proportional either, so a little nose might not be perfectly depictive of a black OR white person.

By monochrome you mean black and white. Sorry i asked the museum curator but he said under no circumsatnces was i allowed to paint it pretty colours just to make you happy

so thats why the god is depicted as caucasoid then huh
use your eyes
In all other art of the period he is depicted as having an aqualine nose same as the god's
but
The depiction of hammurabi was made to legitimise his succession.
So it may be a representation of an earlier time when shamash Gave men permission to make laws over themselves and its only depicted so that Hammurabi could claim to be just like the earlier negro king given the right.

maybe the guy was a negro dukky?but maybe he was'nt the type of negro we are used to looking at.maybe the guy had a pigment disorder,or light skin.i know plenty of black people who are just as white as i am,and all i have is a farmers tan.
i swear though,maybe he had a disease like vitilagio or something.then again,he could have been half black,with the white genes being domonant instead of the black ones!all we have are descriptions,not actually proof of his heritage!

Hammurabi was white, caucasoid of the Arab extraction.
His relatives have been D.N.A. typed.
andi can tell you from the rest of the art of the period he always has a white nose.
I pity the carver if he had messed up so badly on an item that was later to be on display at the temple to shamash.
That kind of negligence was treasonable in those days.
The colour is irrelevant as the entire stone is black by its nature
so why depict an earlier King as negro ?
who was he
any guesses

if ya want to talk,ww2,presidental history,trivia,tv or music,i'm your guy.but when it comes to history this far back,i do'nt know sh** from shinolah!
the guy still could have had a skin disorder.you said yourself if the artist would have made a mistake,they would have killed him.if he showed him as truly white,would'nt he had suffered the same fate?

I'm still waiting for you to pick up on the python joke i posted earlier.
The artist would have depicted him as he was told to depict him
the nose is shown that way because it means something
but have you ever seen an out of place nose on a carving before

Arabs and Jews are considered Semitic ,and by some,as a separate race. The US census counts semitic as white, socially they are considered non white. Captain Sunshines who walk with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea. Maybe that's why all semitic people are so brilliant and highly evolved.

Introducing you to one of my semetic friends would completly shatter you theory, but then if I introduced you to the rest it would partially repeice.
The only brilliant and highly evolved people you have to worry about are us sneaky Canadians and of course out British counter parts such as Marduk.

I have viewed various depictions of Hammurabi and perhaps this one is a little "off", but I would not go as far to assume what nationality he is nor what his skin color is.
The image I have inclosed I cropped in Photoshop from an origin image that I willing include the link to as well.
People of the same ethnicity and/or race can have varying facial features. That's one possibility. Also much of the art of the ancient world purposely "distorts" human features for either emphasis or to show that they are below the gods, i.e. not perfect.
Also, when question the small details on a piece of art, don't zoom in on it so that those who look at it are looking at something out of focus.

Original image

Maybe Hammurabi was depicted with the bulbous nose to show his raging alcoholism. Later representations went to the straighter nose after he checked into rehab, and nobody wanted the people of Mesopotamia to know that their king was having troubles with the booze.

He's got a caucasian beak. Your pics aren't very sharp. Here's a better pic of it. and a "beak zoom"!!

[attachmentid=15669]

Now here's WC Fields - white guy with bulbous nose!

Case closed!

Case closed uhuh
when the image posted is of a repro thats been recarved to lose none of the original detail
sure
whatever

institutionalised racism at work

Just your post was referring to the features carved. Who's to say what the sculptor was thinking? And you referred to him having a nose reminiscent of a different race! And that his early images were different. Maybe, like most people his features changed as he got older?

His other images from the same period show him with an aqualine nose.
But being a king doesn't work like that
in the political climate at the time any new king had to legitimise his succession by claiming the divine right to rule
thats done usually by taking the name of the previous king as happened in egypt a lot or by linking yourself to a mythological event.
You don't need to know what the sculptor was thinking
you need to know what hammurabi was thinking
and he was thinking "i have come to rule over the black headed ones"
I'm all for claiming that just because one nose looks negro it doesn't mean that the subject is. i understand how facial features can vary across races.
But. It was carved with a negroid nose when Hammurabi clearly wasn't.
So Hammurabi is claiming to be a legitimate ruler by linking himself to another king who started off as a slave and rose to power like he did.
Who is the Negro king ?
He's not mentioned in any other sumerian Text by name.
Though there's plenty of evidence
Negro's were known to the sumerians. They had slaves from many different races
A sumerian scribe wouldn't make the mistake of giving His new king the wrong nose.
Cos its hard to be a scribe when you've been fed to the crocodiles

Well, I'm convinced. *lol*

So's this guy

He looks unhappy. But it doesn't mean Hammurai was a black man. Often artists and craftsmen distort characters in their works. It proves nothing of what the model really looked like.

Thats what i'm saying AR
We know hammurabi wasn't negroid
But he claims his providence from a previous negroid king.
This wasn't an artist or a craftsmen.
It was a royal scribe
they don't distort characters.
it would be sacriligious
This Stele was made to go on display at a temple to shamash.
its isn't just a work of art
its a work of religious art.
So that'd be like saying that a scribe would just rewrite sections of the bible because they tend to distort what they can read.
I'm sure you're not saying that huh

maybe sum1 wanted to ridicule him
*shrugs*

It would have to be self parody then,
He commisioned this work himself
It was on display in the temple of Shamash (sun god/later Marduk)
It wasn't Humour R M
How many stained glass windows have you seen that "take the piss" out of God

then he was depicted to be more important than he was?

You didn't study succesion in the ancient world much did ya roswell
Thats the whole point
In laymans terms
"look at me i'm the king and i'm just as good as King bob who you all remember was a great king. which must make me a great king too.....right ??"

The image's looks white to me were do get the idea he looks black is this just your thoughts or have you heard this some where,

Using Hammurabi's helmet, his descendant, Butch (the Hammer) Hammurabi inspired players throught College Football to wear these new-fangled "hats". It eventually led to mandatory wearing of helmets throughout the sport. Of course, it sure didn't hurt that Butch made All-State from 1941 to 1943!!

Luckily Isis only you have to rely on your knowledge of the ancient world
Perhaps you'd like to tell us all what you know about Hammurabi without googling anything ?

Marduk,i have a great deal of knowledge about egypt , let us get something strait, i only asked a question, i wanted to know what other thougt about the subject, as it was a topic that i myself have been asked many times, and i find it strange that with the knowledge you have on egypt that all your post have been that of a smart ass and not a of a man who thinks with a open mind, I do not expect a intelligent reply from a man in a super hero costume, or one who still does not know that i am a girl, but i find it strange that you would feel the need to be so crud!! p.s. a really do not care about Babylonian history,but i am sure you understand Hammurabi's code of law what is it a eye for a eye

To be fair I don't know much about Hammurabi either - far too modern for me, I lose interest in world history after 3,000bce

The possible connection between Babylon and Africa though is intriguing - and, of course, there is strong evidence for earlier links between Mesopotamia and Egypt.

btw I always though Isis was just a local name for the Thames

Isn't taking artistic license with the head man's image and "off with your head" type scenario? I mean isn't the whole point of carving the image in stone supposed to be about preserving and advertising the ruler. And therefore shouldn't it look as much like him as possible so there is no mistake?Is it like transference then Marduk? He is associating himself with another ruler or did I missunderstand?

Maybe, while he was a soilder, he was the battalion heavy weight champion and got his nose flatten too many times in the boxing ring. Actually, all the photos that I have seen of any of Hammurabi's depictions show features that fall well within the parameters of the caucasoid race

Thats what I figure
He's laying claim to his right to rule by associating himself with another great ruler.
This sort of thing was the norm in sumeria
not the exception

"I do not expect a intelligent reply from a man in a super hero costume"
actually Mr Ed makes a surprising amount of sense

I wouldn't worry about the costume I would worry more about the colored in facial hair.......scary.

So we can tell the race of all people by .......their noses?

Marduk, come now. You of all people know that taking ancient artwork and micro-inspecting it is ludicrous. If he has a Negroid nose than Stitchin may be right about the backpacks and laser guns and starships and helicopters and cuisinarts and TiVos he sees all over Sumerian artwork.

Just for my own satisfaction, though...does it matter that much?

I get what you're saying Greatwhite horse but.......
If his nose was carved that way then there is a reason.
In sumerian myth the first time a man was given the right to make law it was a scorpion Man. Nobody knows anything about the scorpion men apart from this
They were a fearless elite military unit
They have never been depicted in sumerian art
They were said to spread disease and plague against their enemy (in other words annihilate)
They guarded all the great sumerian Kings and protected the seven sages on their quest to bring civilisation to the world
They were a race that was different from regular sumerians

Now bear in mind that Hammurabi who was known for his Military prowess and his love of his troops. And the fact that he was known as a lawgiver. And that he was the last official king of Sumeria and the first of babylonia.
This meant that he really needed to legitimise his reign with the people otherwise as was normal for the time he would have been ousted from power by another King. In other words he needed good P.R. in a hurry
What better way to get it than to claim descendance from the king of the scorpion men. See if he did then it may explain which unknown race the scorpion men were recruited from. And if that can be confirmed then it may well give an answer as to which race is represented by the la venta heads. And how they got there.

Personally seeing as no one has ever noticed that on the Hammurabi Stele before and nobody is cross disciplined enough to notice the mesoamerican connection then i would have thought most people would be intrigued by this thread rather than angered with it
I'ts not afrocentricity by any means
but just maybe its the truth
This is the first forum on earth thats had this information

It certainly is an interesting discussion, and I agree that no one should be angered by this. Mention ethnicity anywhere in any conversation and human beings completely stop thinking. Comprehension stops and anger/outrage/shock begins...as if we were to mention Communism in the American thirties or heresy in medeival Europe.

I immediately thought of the la venta heads as they are most definitely reproductions of helmet-clad Negroid men. This gives me much to think about if what you say is accurate. I will agree that the nose is clearly different from most other artistic works of the time...would some foolish artisan make a mistake on the King's face?

I will think on this.

If an artisan had made a mistake on the kings face do you think that mistake would have been put on display in the holiest temple in the land
Hammurabi was extremely rich.
He would have had another carved.
and
seeing as some of the laws he introduced were trade laws
he wouldn't have had to pay for the bad one

its deliberate imo

I see the connection here. But I'm far too unmotivated to do a google search right about now. So I'll just go with what I've got off the top of my head. The Scorpion people were apparently African, and those are undoubtedly Africans represented on the Toltec heads. Or whoever made those heads. Anyhow, Africans somehow made it to Pre-Columbian America. But the Sumerians, as far as I know, were never really a naval society. So what are we left with, the Phoenicians? Am I on track here?

Keep in mind I have a broad, general knowledge of things. Nothing too detailed.

The Sumerians were maybe not a naval society as you say but they did have the technology capable of making a crossing and they had it at the right time.
Their legends are full of stories about sailors and fishermen. Remember you're talking about a society that grew in between two of the largest rivers on earth

True, but river boats and sea going ships are quite a bit different. I don't know if the Sumerians could build ships that were strong enough to cross the Atlantic. I admit it's possible, but aside from the Epic of Gilgamesh I don't know of another Sumerian vessel to make it out to sea.

I could be wrong, tho.

Sumerian Cylinder seal. Ocean going reed boat circa 2500bce (note the rudder)

Kon Tiki. Thor Heyerdhals atlantic ocean crossing reed boat

reed boat. Lake titicaca,peru.
The figure in gilgamesh is called "Atrahasis" (extra wise). He was a sailor.
Then you have Adapa (craftsman) Who was a fisherman who got lost while at sea and found a strange land.
There are at least 5 sumerian kings that had the epiphet "fisherman" to signify their wisdom.
Fish made up at least 40% of the average sumerians diet.
There are countless stories about ocean voyages and strange lands.
normally populated by snakes birds and monkeys that live in forests and also temples built in the mountains and high places. These starnge lands also apparently have loads of tin mines which started the bronze age back in sumeria in approx 3800bce. A thousand years before anyone else.
sound familiar
Of course thesedays we call that strange land the underworld.
But prior to 1950 it was always ALWAYS translated as "Other World"

Alright, just because I feel like arguing right now. That looks more like a pole you'd use to steer a boat through shallow, marshy water. A sea going vessel would have a much larger, thicker rudder, which was part of the ship itself, and not held by a crew member.

As far as the Sumerian legends go, you got me, I only know the one, and even that isn't really in much detail.

Which end are you looking at.
the sitting guy is clearly holding a rudder under his arm. It is fastened to the ship behind the stern.

I'm looking at the guy at the back of the boat. He's holding what looks to me to be a long pole used for steering boats through shallow river water, not attached to anything that I can see. An ocean going ship would have a much sturdier structure than that.

Olmecs were actually black and from Egypt (Nubians) those statues were found in the Western Hemisphere there would be no reason to depict a black person unless someone had seen one.


Also there is no reason to present images of black men in a place where there were no black people. To do so because to appease the masses makes little sense as they were all Native American. Unless in fact black people actually lived in the Western hemisphere in ancient days and then making statues in their likeness makes sense.

As far as the Sumerian King he was of arabic decent perhaps mixed people from other cultures, which were either conquered by the sumerians or with which they had formal relations (diplomatic).

Same things applies to royalty today its not a big mystery.

So to claim his families DNA was caucasian well.......

name K. Lee B.
status other
age 50s

Question - Is it possible to tell the race of a person from their DNA?

No - Dr. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, says that there
is no evidence so far that would distinguish DNA from one race as opposed to
any other.
Ellen S. Mayo
=========================================================
NO! There are more individual differences between people of the same race,
than there are differences between the races. These discoveries more than
any other, should show that race is (was) just an environmental adaptation,
and that we truly are all one species

vanhoek

Source link

Lastly your Peruvian reed boat why is there so much distortion around the image of the person?

Any thoughts?

Do you even know what you're talking about
gonna claim to have sumerians in your family line next then
Prety much everything you said apart from the dna evidence is wrong
and i don't recall anyone saying d.n.a. was proof of something