OK, a continuation of another thread, but here's what may be your "real" lucifer sword:


http://hiddenmysteries.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16307
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm45637.html
http://www.thequestforbibletreasures.com/B...hat_pierced.htm
http://www.sxws.com/charis/relics8.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly...-640172,00.html

The lucifer sword might be a newer legend based on this old one (or vice versa). Evidence for the so called Lucifer sword must be based on Scripture. No mention of it in the bible (obviously!!) but since Lucifer (more accurately translated as son of morning- lucifer is a latin name given by Jerome) is a throne class Cherubim (as observed in Ezekiel 28's famous double reference verses) it is feasible that he actually had a "sword" (this might be a metaphor). Why? Well for one we know that after Adam and Eve were booted from Eden, a high rank cherubim (same class as Lucifer) was placed with a SWORD of fire in Eden to guard it. We also know the Watchers taught early mankind the science of weaponry. Just my speculations. The sword of Lucifer might be less interesting a legend than that Spear in the Berghoff museum.

o.k. you lost me! are you talking about the sword Hitler was after during the war, or are you talking about the sword Satan was suppose to leave heaven with when he and the other angles were cast out into the word, or are you saying they are the same please clear up the facts this is a good thread, but the web links are a bit confusing when added to what you wrote thanks

I didn't know Hitler was after a Lucifer sword (articles have something on that?) I do know that during the night in which the Rhineleand demilitarised zone was being reoccupied, he went to the Berghoff museum and held that spear. Also he spent hours and hours researching the spear. Plus the spear is really really ancient as most of the articles show (each piece has it's own history) and it was owned by some powerful men.

Ok i'm confused ! The first thing that confuses me is why would God, Satin or an angel need a sword??? ( made by man)? Or why associate God or anything related with war?

Is this what God had planned for us? made in his image, was that War was our fate?

Also he spent hours and hours researching the spear
you don't know a great deal about Hitler do ya......lol
ever heard of the Thule society
http://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html
Satan never had a sword
he had a trident. the sign of pagan kings

I have heard of the spears, they are suppose to have Chrits blood on them.

You are right I know very little compared to many on this site . I have to say that because hitler was interested in ancient holy artifacts does not give them the criedeince they deserve.

I was trying to find out why that before man was created the" Gods" had swords?


I had to add that I know little about this and Marduk I have read for a while and would never start a debate on this topic

OK- on the question on why an angel would need a sword, well, first a sword could be something metaphorical. Yet this does not neccesarily need to be true. Like I previously said, a Cherubim guarded Eden with a SWORD after Adam and Eve were thrown out. I know what your thinking "Genesis is an allegory...." well that's not true because anybody who has read the Torah will know that physical bloodlines are discussed, along with purportedly true history. If the events related did indeed occur is another discussion entirely. Suffice to say that the authors of the NT held the Torah/OT to be literal, as did all orthodox religious leaders of the time. Now back to the issue of angels and swords. We know from Enoch that the science of weaponry was taught by an angel (Armaros) to human beings. Thus swords aren't man made objects being applied to the heavenly hosts- they are conceptions from the hosts picked up by humans. Anyone familiar with that book (Enoch) will also tell you that makeup had the same origin. As did some bits of medicine (particularly surgery), astrology,etc. Now the evidence for a real/metaphorical sword with links to some dark biblical power are very very slim. Anyway, I think that spear is much more interesting since Hitler owned it, and it's very very old. If it has the blood of christ is irrelevant (honestly think Christs blood will be on a spear...and after 2000 years? lol!) , but it's history might allude to a dark origin.

lol i should have said that babayagafamiliar who said that hitler researched the spear for hours and hours doesn't realise that he had an organisation that did it for him
All the accounts written so far have two things in common.
they were all written by men who knew about swords.
they were all written after the invention of the sword

Hitler studied the spear while in Vienna, and a poor artist. He later grabbed it after the Anschluss with Austria.

http://members.surfbest.net/argentium@surfbest.net/spear.htm

1909-first contact with spear

1938-grabs the spear.


"The Spear was confiscated by American forces on the afternoon of April 30, 1945, less than two hours before Hitler’s suicide in his underground bunker in Berlin."

Look's pretty obsessed about the spear to me

didnt even no there was sucha sword, interesting .

from your link
The Spear was introduced to DC continuity in February 1977 in Weird War Tales #50. In the DC universe the relic seized by Adolf Hitler was indeed the real Spear of Longinus. It has a history every bit as remarkable as Hitler believed and it possesses real — and exceptionally formidable — mystic powers.

The DC universe Spear is somewhat different from the various real-world relics. It is usually depicted as a short spear, perhaps four feet long, rather than a hasta. It is also intact: the spearhead was never separated from the shaft, and recent evidence suggests that the Spear cannot be damaged or destroyed by any conventional means.

It has never been revealed precisely how Hitler acquired the Spear in the DC universe. It may have been displayed in Vienna and seized in 1938, just as the Hapsburg Spear was in real life. In the eighties the supervillain called the Wizard claimed to have provided Hitler with the Spear, but the Wizard’s former villainous colleague Per Degaton maintained that the Wizard was in Tibet at that time and had nothing to do with it (America vs. The Justice Society #3 and #4). In any case, the DC universe’s Hitler did not entrust the Spear to his lackeys at Nuremberg, choosing instead to keep it with him in Berlin.

In November 1940 Nazi agents in Scotland captured three American “mystery men,” Batman, the Flash, and Green Lantern. The three heroes had been dispatched by President Franklin Roosevelt and William Stephenson, the head of British intelligence, to investigate reports of a planned German invasion of Great Britain. At a specially convened rally in Berlin hours later, Hitler prepared to unmask the three Americans and then slay them with the Spear of Destiny as a demonstration of German superiority. He was interrupted by the arrival of two more American heroes, Dr. Fate and Hourman, who quickly freed the three captives.

Enraged, Hitler called on the mystic power of the Spear. Despite the Spear’s origins as a Christian artifact, Hitler’s philosophy was a decidedly un-Christian one, influenced by Frederich Nietszche and Teutonic myth as interpreted by Wagner. As a result, most of the magical effects Hitler produced with the Spear took the form of figures from Norse mythology. His cry of rage summoned a flight of Valkyries, the sword maidens of Wotan, riding the winged horses of legend. At Hitler’s command, the valkyries attacked the American heroes, engaging them in battle high above Berlin.

Exultant at this sign of his own power and German’s dominance, Hitler ordered his commanders to begin Operation Sea Lion, the planned invasion of Great Britain, which had been scrapped months earlier as a result of poor weather in the English channel. At the same time an experimental long-range bomber was dispatched across the Atlantic to attack Washington, D.C. in hopes of killing President Roosevelt.

As the beleaguered heroes pursued the valkyries, who headed out over the ocean to escort the bomber on its way, Dr. Fate issued several mystic summons, enlisting the help of other American mystery men. Drawn to England by Fate’s magic, the Atom, Hawkman, and the Sandman joined British troops in repelling the first wave of German invaders. Just as they realized that they stood no chance against the full might of the Nazi force, they were joined by the Spectre, the recipient of Fate’s fourth summons. Growing to enormous size, the Spectre strode into the English Channel and singlehandedly laid waste to the entire German fleet, crushing ships and men like toys.

Lol good stuff
better than the real history

I have also heard that the spear was scooped by the Americans. It was said that the army the holds it would be upmost powerful but not invonrabale. Kinda sounds like the Lost ark.

Ok back to the swords why would man write about God needing a sword or even being concerned with one. It sounds like a mythylogical story to me.. Oh how many Christians read a horoscope and believe in them Ancient mytholygy. I thought it was a so called dead religion? not sure. Sorry a little off topic

Because a sword that belonged to the devil did not only have the power to kill a human but also angels and demons.

It would also have the power to (by virtue of the fact it could kill demons and angels) kill the human soul (the proverbial second death).

Legends about soul killers (or slayers) are actually very common.

They were often related to the Law of the Wheel, which basically is suggestive
of Gods plan for mankind and the ways that plan is enforced.

Often incorporated in these legends is the idea that the war in heaven has not yet been won and in reality Earth, being an aspect of heaven is just another stage in the battle, in relation to good and evil.

Any thoughts?

Well, since we are talking about the Devil, (and not any devil, Satan, the Judao-Christian devil), we are assuming he would indeed exist to carry a sword (actually a forked spear, or trident as depicted in artworks of medeival Europe as Marduk suggested).

Follow me here. If Satan exists, and has a weapon, than you must also believe the other guidelines surrounding the Satan mythos. Biblically he is said to be powerless before God. He is said to be powerless before the archangels, and he is said to be powerless before even a good Christian human being, and that a belief in Christ will repel him. He preys on the weak and foolish and a good christian has nothing to fear.

Therefore, if we are talking Satan and his "sword" and he must exist, his sword would certainly not be a "soul killer" or "angel slayer". It would look really imposing, thats all.

Keep in mind Im a Buddhist, although I know plenty of Christianity since I am the proverbial "son of a preacher man".

Actually that is not necessarily correct what yu are talking about GWH is a more contemporary assessment of God and his power and all this stuff is Old School

Meaning Wrath of God and eye for an eye and so on.

The idea that humans have souls and that these souls could have their existence threatened was is a very common ideology, especially prior to roughly 100 years ago and in respect to the masses (predominantly of course).

Within the notion of such fears was the hope of common denominators in relation to the ability to form an attack. This was for the most part a derivation of some kind to life and reality as it was understood.

So if Satan were to come to attack me I would try to steel his sword so I could kill him.

Today such words would probably raise several eyebrows, but in a world where a parent could wake up and find that some predatory animal had come in the night and eaten their baby....... Well what can I say it comes with the territory.

In essence my point


The idea of heavenly warriors, which were human and had the ability to fight evil spirits speaks for itself and one example of such demons, are what we today call diseases.

This is not to imply that my impression is that evil does not exist, but rather many of our conclusions about evil simply relate to our ignorance with respect to nature.

Any thoughts?

Just the one
SATAN DOESN'T EXIST

Marduk,what religion do you belive in or do you belive in evolution, just wondering, as for the sword i still want to know if you mean the sword the blind roman stuck in Jesus, and Hitler wanted for its suppose cult power, or are you talking about the sword of the angles, the only angle i have ever heard of with a sword is the archangle Michael,

That was a spear not a sword - The Spear of Longinus.

lol,
I'm a Pagan
allegedly

and i believe in evolution. But i'm not a darwinist
I don't believe in aliens with swords, demons with swords or angels with swords or satan with a sword because basically i'm not all that gullible.
I believe in the Truth

I think someone has been reading to much of "The Book of Swords." A fictional book that was popular years ago. It had a sword for every occasion.

Ah that explains it then
So if i read it will i believe that satan has a sword ?

This is all silly. If you wanna know the roots of Christian belief, study ALL OTHER ANCIENT RELIGIONS. They all have similar stories to explain to themselves why they were here. It helped them have purpose and explain why there were stars in the sky, why bad things happened, why there were horrid natural disasters. Religion was the collection of stories made up to help them understand their environments.

They should not be taken literally! The bible is like the after-school special of the ancient world. Learn a lesson and move on with your lives!

Satan was a product of them demonizing the Pagan gods. There is no guy in the depths of the Earth in a pit of fire with a pitch fork waiting to burn you for eternity. Nor does any being in the skies have a sword before man invented them.

PLUS the Bible was *NOT* written by GOD.... it was written by MEN, and look at our track record. People who you expect to be the most spiritually aware people often do bad things just like the rest of us. Manipulation or power, and other such things... we all know what a good number of priests have done to kids....

ALL I'm saying is this: If the Bible is to be taken literally word for word, then so are ALL OTHER RELIGIOUS WRITINGS....... that means that there are BLUE DUDES up in heaven with 6-8 arms flailing about, sitting next to Buddah and Allah and Yahweh and Goddesses and Gods and Ra, Osiris, Isis, and the Earth is sitting on the back of a turtle.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't believe in something which created all this we see around us. Just put it in the right place: ENERGY made us... we ARE energy... energy is "god".

Oh please
"and the Earth is sitting on the back of a turtle."
thats just plainly ridiculous,
everyone knows the Earth rests on the back of four giant elephants that sit on the back of a turtle.

It was book about gods that had swords made to hurt humanity and they ended up being able to kill the gods. One of the swords for example could steal a soul. There was 13 in all.

"Just put it in the right place: ENERGY made us... we ARE energy... energy is "god".

So you're talking energy SWORDS too! Like lightsabers!

The idea of Satan and Hell has been a part of our culture as a whole for as long we have existed.

Its a conclusion which suggest that evil, is personified in living form and has dominion over a place which for all intent and purposes, the opposite of heaven as it is described (within the context of major forms for religion).

There is in actuality no ancient system of belief in existence which does not acknowledge the existence of such a place existing somewhere, within the confines of reality as we understand it.

No such idea has ever been excluded in relation to the ancient past and to be clear, if life cannot be destroyed and rather changes at death. Well, then my impression is; that rather than assume that the Hell of Satan (or by whatever
name you would like to call him) cannot exist, one should reconsider that
thought and change there mind.

That God has a plan, means through free will one can deviate from it.

In fact to such an extent, that when the time comes to "face" God a person simply can not "face" him

If you cannot "face" God then a person eventually cannot be in his presence and therefore, must move away from God to perhaps to a pace where God can only barely see him.

A place that God created for that very purpose, a place that is very far away. but not as far away as heaven.

I take it your not an Atheist Marduk?

Personified evil as a concept does have its issues.

But generally speaking, the argument that evil is not unlike the rose which "smells as sweet" is simply unacceptable in contemporary society.

More so because while humans do tend to personify many things, awareness if immutable can also personify something beyond that individual immutable life.

As far as "it" being infinite or beyond infinite


Any thoughts?

Marduk what is your concept of the truth, i wish you had explained in more detail,i myself belive strongly in God, as well as Satan, but i do not belive the Bible is the best source of information, as it was written by men, also the time line does not match our own history recorders, i am sure you are not Pagan as you are to smart to worship something so dumb back on thread; there is only one sword and that would be the one Hilter wanted or better yet he had, many people do not know the SS was based on cult belives, and as for satan, who cares if he has a sword, he can't hurt you unless you let him!!!

It was a spear, not a sword.

you are right it was a spear and not a sword,thank- you for pointing that out my mistake, i should have been more clear

Christians would call my faith Pagan
personally i have another name for it
but to try to explain that would take a new thread
Paganism isn't a religion.
its a religious slur used by christians and those that know no better to describe non christians.
Jews, arabs, buddhists etc are all pagans by definition

I'm non-denominational.

What is Lucifer's Sword? Never heard of it.

It's what he violates all the nuns with
they even used to take steps to stop him from doing that
so it must be true

Violating nuns is an issue all to itself Marduk one that society needs to address.

But if that were the only problem our world had, well then evil personified it would be.

When a person decides that having more than what is needed to survive, is more important than the survival of another that, is taking a proverbial step beyond nature and "how it works."

That this type of reasoning is actually incorrect ,more advanced animals on
earth do engage in excess and defend that behavior with violence.

What is presented rather, was a philosophy offered in relation to what separated man from animals in the not to distant past.

A bottom line in relation to this is either free will exist or it does not.

If it does, not then reality as we understand it is no more really complicated reality
show and not much else.

Otherwise, the consequences of our decisions have a real effect upon anything
within the range of its ability to effect.

The more advanced we become the greater that range is and so if the decision is to do the wrong thing, from the point of view of all that exist then it can be defined as evil.

The consequence of some plan for instance, for example related to some format on how things are to end, so they can begin again.



Any thoughts?

Here's something I clipped from a website aluding to Excalibur. I thought it would provoke some discussion. It also has some very nteresting repurcusions regarding the Holy Grail if you consider the premise:

"Consider the even more famous King Arthur. Although the stories about him are numerous, contradictory and often fragmentary, they nevertheless present a man who could work miracles and whose birth involved a supernatural agency. He had a supernatural sword and his reign marked a great time of peace and prosperity for Britain; a time that eventually fell into apostasy. Incidentally, the proposed solution for this apostasy was to shift attention from the Lord Jesus Christ, to the supposed cup he drank from at the last supper: the so-called 'Holy Grail'.


Satan's fingerprints are all over King Arthur, whose last name was 'Pendragon'. Like the Hebrew 'ben' and the Aramaic 'bar' (and the Irish 'o', the Scottish 'm(a)c', the Welsh 'ap' and the Spanish 'ez'), 'pen' means 'son of': 'Pendragon' is 'the son of the dragon' (Gen.3:15; Rev.13), and the dragon was the emblem of Camelot (the Nazi SS was based upon Arthur's Camelot). Unlike Jesus' sword (Rev.19:15), which 'BREAKETH the rock in pieces' (Jer.23:29; Ephes.6:17), Arthur's sword came OUT of a rock (hence its name, 'Excalibur'), where it was placed by a supernatural woman. Unlike the bride of Christ (Ephes.5:27; 2 Cor.11 :2), Arthur's bride was adulterous, but then, so was Arthur who sired children out of wedlock (one of them incestuously). After his death, Arthur's body was taken across water (an obvious typology) to an island. A promise was made that in the future the king would return to help Britain in the hour of its direst need!"

you forgot to add the first line at the top of the page
"A Website Testifying Of God's Faithfulness In Preserving The Holy Bible Unto This Generation"
http://www.kjv-asia.com/bible_believing_mi..._antichrist.htm

Satan doesn't exist
so he can't have been King Arthur of the round table
who didn't exist either

they must of had a round table....

Why ?
what movie did you see it in ?

Lucifer;s sword was the weapon he used when he fought Gods archangle's the story goes Lucifer was jealous of God, and wanted the power for himself, he was also very upset that God loved the people of the earth so much, that he gave his son for there sins, a great war broke out in heaven, that is why the archangle Michael is always shown with a sword, he and the angles fought for God and when the war was over God cast satan and his followers out of heaven, god and satan have a deal a thousand years Satan has to prove we are not worthy, after that God will come down to claim those who believe and have not swayed, there more but you get the idea,

"A thousand years are but a day in the eyes of a lord"
that was another big con.
its like giving saddam hussein community service
Better to rule in hell/iraq than serve in heaven/america

I don't beleive in the Devil either, just ex-wives....

I'm off for a weeks holiday in Italy tomorrow Marduk, so please make sure that any alien assistance/ its in the Bible theories are supported with some good science while I'm gone. I'll be in Rome perusing the Vatican library.

Cheers.

the SWORD and SPEAR...are old toltec meanings for inherent awhereness skills.
THe warriors is armed with the sword of pwer and the spear of destiny.

Lucifer, is one of the falling "spokes" of the wheal of universe...in terms of awhereness...because...also this universe has an awhereness....

perhaps your right Marduk, but no matter what the reason the US and GB did the right thing , how many people have to die befor a mad man is stopped this is off thread; but Saddam was no different than Hitler, and befor you tell me i am crazy, my ex-husband was there and i was with child, and no i still think we did the right thing, even if !! but know its time to come home and get all our people out of iraq,they have to learn to stand on there own, we got rid of saddam and his sons and loss to many lives doing it, but i will alway believe it was right even if the goverments were lieing on why!!

I agree
you only really have to look at how the germans and french weren't interested to see how right the action was.

once again i have to agree, they only cared the about oil, not the lives of the people who were killed for the hell of it i know our country's do not always agree but at least we stand together for what is right, and do not trun our backs on those's in need.

They were also a little concerend that the munitions that they had supplied the iraqis illegally would be discovered.
and they were.
They at least should have had the common decency to make it part of a trade agreement like the americans did in the 80s when they delivered chemical and biological weapons to Saddam.

do not forget the food for oil program how many got there dirty secrets told over that, i still do not understand how russia can out smelling like a rose in all this, they have sold weapon under the table for years to iraq.

Russia
HMMMM
hey you wanna buy a second hand nuke, very cheap, cost only two pairs of levi's and a box of turnips.

if you play hard, you can get it for less, others have

I got fifty cents and a Tori Hunter bobblehead from a box of froot loops. I'll take a green one