This theory has been floating around my head for a bit, but I haven't had time to post it. Basically could there be another advanced race on our planet? I don't mean on land; I mean undersea! Humans have only explored 2% of the Pacific Oceans bottom; what's to say there might not be an advanced race living down there? And also maybe this race is located under the bermuda triangle, explaining all the weird happeninsg there; a crazy theory, but an interesting one at that.

Tell me what ya think

Well, the Bermuda triangle is definitely out; that area has been mapped, re-mapped, and continues to be mapped, what with all the air and sea traffic, particularly the military, that use that region for all their travel and training, including submarine.

As far as the rest of the ocean...well, it's possible, but I would say unlikely. The bottom of the deep ocean doesn't have a whole lot of resources that would be needed to support an advanced race, or even a primitive race, for that matter.

Well, the Bermuda triangle is definitely out; that area has been mapped, re-mapped, and continues to be mapped, what with all the air and sea traffic, particularly the military, that use that region for all their travel and training, including submarine.

As far as the rest of the ocean...well, it's possible, but I would say unlikely. The bottom of the deep ocean doesn't have a whole lot of resources that would be needed to support an advanced race, or even a primitive race, for that matter.

It doesn't support a society,like ours for example.A race is a different thing.

No, I was including races of anything. Advanced societies need certain things: resources, stable food supplies, sources of energy. There just aren't that many of them at the ocean depths. Everything we have seen indicates they are pretty much deserts.

No, I was including races of anything. Advanced societies need certain things: resources, stable food supplies, sources of energy. There just aren't that many of them at the ocean depths. Everything we have seen indicates they are pretty much deserts.

But does an advanced race really have to have lived in a society at one point in their history?

Mermaids

It could be possible but who is going to go down there to check, I here there are huge creatures like giant squids, and maybe Nessie like creatures down in the deep.

We also got to ask how and when would another race of humans would have adapted to life of the deep. Because its theorized all of our evolution occurred on land, it would be a far fetched idea to thing right after we evolved into some early form of homo sapien they somehow went straight to the ocean and evolved radically to adapt to sea life in the deep and continued to develope the mind and prosper to some system of civilization. not likely

Oh yes. Most definitely. See, that is what makes them advanced. Science cannot develop in isolation. It eventually reaches a basic limit and comes to a stop. It is only with societal communication that races can go beyond the basic advances of tribal organizations.

Oh yes. Most definitely. See, that is what makes them advanced. Science cannot develop in isolation. It eventually reaches a basic limit and comes to a stop. It is only with societal communication that races can go beyond the basic advances of tribal organizations

You mean a race can't evolve into more intelligent beings without communication?
If so,is communication only possible in a society?

I don't mean humans developed into a sea-race I mean there might be another advanced species (or at one point maybe there was) at the bottom of the sea.

No, communication is necessary for a society to even form, primitive or otherwise. It is one of the basic necessities. Intelligence, however, is the gathering and utilization of knowledge, and in order for that to happen, there has to be an...what's the right word...an opportunity for it to occur.

A group of hunters is basically interested in finding dinner. The level of communication that is needed is just enough to tell them where the next herd of buffalo (or fish) is hiding. Now, let's say this group has enough resources to not need to hunt so much. Now their level of communication has to increase. Why? Because one guy might figure out how to make spears, another how to plant crops, a third how to make fire (which would be in high demand under the sea), but unless they communicate, they will not grow as a society, because they will be three seperate people with three seperate secrets, as opposed to a single society with shared knowledge. This aspect of society, this gathering and sharing of intelligence, so that it may be utiliaed, is what eventually turns a basic society into an advanced society.

Then why did you not say species in the first place. Well what would you call advanced, I would argue that all species are advanced to the point their biology would allow them. So yes if your thinking like me!

But if your refereing to advanced like humans no!

But the sea is one of the most bountiful palces, no, is THE most bountiful place on earth. Even the bottom; billions of dead marine-creatures corpses drop to the bottom everyday; more than enough to feed a species. And what's to say this species couldn't evolve? Develop intelligence? Maybe not as intelligent as us; but advanced none the less. It happened on land; it's most definitely happened on other planets; so why not under the sea.

Europa

No, communication is necessary for a society to even form, primitive or otherwise. It is one of the basic necessities. Intelligence, however, is the gathering and utilization of knowledge, and in order for that to happen, there has to be an...what's the right word...an opportunity for it to occur.

A group of hunters is basically interested in finding dinner. The level of communication that is needed is just enough to tell them where the next herd of buffalo (or fish) is hiding. Now, let's say this group has enough resources to not need to hunt so much. Now their level of communication has to increase. Why? Because one guy might figure out how to make spears, another how to plant crops, a third how to make fire (which would be in high demand under the sea), but unless they communicate, they will not grow as a society, because they will be three seperate people with three seperate secrets, as opposed to a single society with shared knowledge. This aspect of society, this gathering and sharing of intelligence, so that it may be utiliaed, is what eventually turns a basic society into an advanced society.

But what if the hunter has to evolve because of outside factors?What if certain senses and bodyfunctions develop because of a change in the surroundings?
And if the hunter perceives his surroundings in a different way,then his train of thought has to change as well,right?

Are you talking about a hybird race, of being's living under the ocean, i guess if you believe in aliens then this can make since, i really do not know; how do you explain people who have very high IQ, how do you explain those who see hear and understand things they have never been expose too, i do not believe there are a supper race of people just whating to be found under the ocean but i guess it could happen stranger things have been found out to be true!

I don't believe either; i'm just wondering maybe there really is some advanced species under the sea.

Are you talking about a hybird race, of being's living under the ocean, i guess if you believe in aliens then this can make since, i really do not know; how do you explain people who have very high IQ, how do you explain those who see hear and understand things they have never been expose too, i do not believe there are a supper race of people just whating to be found under the ocean but i guess it could happen stranger things have been found out to be true!

Supper race....

Is this at me because I posted all species are as advanced as there biology. But if your talking of sea creatures who devoloped rocket science a "human" development, No!

btw snake you know you can quote things other than putting them in red by using the quote tags

btw snake you know you can quote things other than putting them in red by using the quote tags

Yes, I do.



See?

Hmm...not sure what the purpose of this is...

Generally speaking, societies develop because outside factors are no longer an issue. Outside factors are generally what keep societies from forming, due to the lack of opportunity for communication to develop. And without a basic society forming (thanks to communication), an advanced society cannot form.

But I may be missing the point to your paragraph, I confess I do not really understand its meaning.

Thats so crazy that just might be possible, lol

Hmm...not sure what the purpose of this is...

Generally speaking, societies develop because outside factors are no longer an issue. Outside factors are generally what keep societies from forming, due to the lack of opportunity for communication to develop. And without a basic society forming (thanks to communication), an advanced society cannot form.

But I may be missing the point to your paragraph, I confess I do not really understand its meaning.

I'm trying to argue that a society is not necessary for a race to evolve into something more intelligent/powerful/etc.

I hope that helps you out.

Ah, I see.

I think there is a basic confusion between social evolution and biological evolution. Humans have not evolved, biologically, a great deal in the past tens of thousands of years, however our social evolution has been responsible for making us the most advanced species on Earth. When we are speaking of 'advanced', we aren't talking about Darwinian superiority (which, I suppose, would make H.R. Giger's "Aliens" the most advanced species), but rather the gathering and utilization of knowledge.

as soon as i see fish walking around im running for the hills.

Ah, I see.

I think there is a basic confusion between social evolution and biological evolution. Humans have not evolved, biologically, a great deal in the past tens of thousands of years, however our social evolution has been responsible for making us the most advanced species on Earth. When we are speaking of 'advanced', we aren't talking about Darwinian superiority (which, I suppose, would make H.R. Giger's "Aliens" the most advanced species), but rather the gathering and utilization of knowledge.

Fair enough,but I was hoping to include them both.A superior race would be obviously the one that survives,so if their biological evolution can rival our social evolution,then I think we can see it as an "advanced race".

Well, the idea of survival of the fittest was originally advanced by Darwin, but has been replaced nowadays with Neo-Darwinism, that makes a distinction between physical superiority and ability to survive and procreate. A herd of Utahraptors would not be seen as advanced, but there is little doubt in my mind they they could well rival, if not completely destroy, a tribe of humans, when it comes to survival.

Heck, even among humans, it is worth remembering that the advanced societies of the ancient world were eventually destroyed by savages.

Okay let's stay with intelligence then.

Let's take an example......A species has evolved in a way that it can control other species(including humans) and it actually has the intelligence to understand humans.Such a species could have evolved without society, right?

In fact, there are many varieties of parasites that actually, physically control the creature they are inhabiting. Now, if we are talking about having the intelligence to understand humans, then we are no longer talking about microscopic creatures, but creatures with complex minds. Can I assume that you are referring to controlling humans in the sense of 'herding' them, or treating them as pets? Well, I would have to say no, because the sort of intelligence that goes into the ability to control the behaviour of another animal is something that is either learned or instinctive, and anything with a brain large enough to understand humans isn't governed by instinct.

an underwater civilisation is not a far fetched idea. just because we use certain resources, doesnt mean that a civilisation living in water would need to. different enviroment > different needs > different inventions. so maybe sea civilisations exist, they just arent advanced enough to make contact abouve water

So, how advanced is advanced?

I'd be the first to agree with ya if it were possible, but it's not. Space has a necklace of satellites orbiting the planet and watching the entire surface. If there were another human-like race living underwater, we'd know about it. However, if they were far more advanced than us, could they block sonar detection?

-- Atlantis Rises

That would be cool AR would finally have his prove

I'd be the first to agree with ya if it were possible, but it's not. Space has a necklace of satellites orbiting the planet and watching the entire surface. If there were another human-like race living underwater, we'd know about it. However, if they were far more advanced than us, could they block sonar detection?

-- Atlantis Rises

I don't think he meant human-like race,but race in general.


In fact, there are many varieties of parasites that actually, physically control the creature they are inhabiting. Now, if we are talking about having the intelligence to understand humans, then we are no longer talking about microscopic creatures, but creatures with complex minds. Can I assume that you are referring to controlling humans in the sense of 'herding' them, or treating them as pets? Well, I would have to say no, because the sort of intelligence that goes into the ability to control the behaviour of another animal is something that is either learned or instinctive, and anything with a brain large enough to understand humans isn't governed by instinct.

Not really herding.Literally controlling.
If a species isn't governed by instinct anymore,does it have to form a society?

You do realise that you have just proved humans are parasites.... we are herding animals and controlling them in order to feed on them.

And parasited most certainly do not have to be micro-scopic.
See leeches, mosquitos, vampire bats (which are mammalian parasites!).

You do realise that you have just proved humans are parasites.... we are herding animals and controlling them in order to feed on them.

And parasited most certainly do not have to be micro-scopic.
See leeches, mosquitos, vampire bats (which are mammalian parasites!).

Humans are parasites?

NO WAY SHERLOCK

But there's a slight difference between humans and other parasites.We are parasites by choice.



PS.
What is it with the avatar-jets?I have already seen 3 or 4 people using them.

The oceans are vast enough to hold some secrets. But an advanced race of sea people? Whales and dolphin are highly intellegent however.

Also, there are many reports of UFOs going underwater or rising out of the water. What do we make of this?

Some odd and bizarre new species- yes , but a whole advanced race... no way

I know, I was stating the obvious, cause no body else did .

And I'm not so sure humans are parasites by choice... if we weren't parasitic, civilization couldn't be born (think about it - no crops and no animal farming... humans would have been nothing more than hunting monkeys ).


as for the jet avatar - I don't know about other people here, but mine is the IAI Lavi, Israeli made figher that was cancelled because of American pressure, out of fear that it'll out do the F-16 .
Just a little gesture for my service in the Israeli Air Force .

If anyone is interesting in the parasitic property of man, you may enjoy reading "The Mind Parasites" by Colin Wilson. Wilson obviously is influenced by the works of Lovecraft and is a very good writer.

Human's aren't parasites
we're predators
theres a difference you know.

If we're talking about some sort of unknown mind-control type of thing, then feel free to go crazy with the speculation, as it would no longer be bound by the rules of nature.

Inasfar as forming a society, it isn't so much a requirement for survival as it is for intellectual advancement. Creatures that are no longer ruled by the primitive survival based instincts generally are in such a situation in which they can develop skills designed to support, such as arts, crops, and domestication. The development of such skills necessitates social communication.



I think you missed something. Herding and controlling requires the intelligence to understand the creature, which rules out parasitic creatures, as they do not have the brain size needed for cognitive thinking.

As fashionable as it is to cry out that humans are the scourge of the Earth, we are not parasites. See below.



These are not parasites because they serve as a link in the food chain. Parasites generally do not contribute anything to any chain other than their own.

I don't know I know a few humans who could pass as parasite!!!!!!!!!

You confuse social parasites and biological parasites.
Biological parasite most certainly can be part of the food chain.
They simply do not contribute anything to the hoster, not the entire animal kingdom.
The only creatures which are seemingly not part of the food chain are the ones at the top - mainly top predators.
But even they, as they die, are used as food for bacterias who decompose their bodies.

Lice for example, is a parasite, but is eatern by insect-feeding animals (such as bats and other insects).


wikipedia defines parasitism as:
"A parasite is an organism that lives in or on the living tissue of a host organism at the expense of that host. The biological interaction between the host and the parasite is called parasitism. Parasitism is a type of symbiosis, by one definition, although another definition of symbiosis excludes parasitism, since it requires that the host benefit from the interaction as well as the parasite."
Parasite.

[quote]
I think you missed something. Herding and controlling requires the intelligence to understand the creature, which rules out parasitic creatures, as they do not have the brain size needed for cognitive thinking.

As fashionable as it is to cry out that humans are the scourge of the Earth, we are not parasites. See below.
[/qoute]
Again you fail to see that parasites do not have to brainless.
You see parasites as microscopic creatures, such as tiny microbes or viruses.

Here's an entry on the vampire bat from an encyclopedia:
"The vampire bat is the only mammal to live as a parasite."

Vampire Bats.

Humans are parasites in the long run, for few reasons:
A. although we do give something to the hosters (the cows in our farms, the tomatoes in the fields), we contribute resources in order to later on kill them and eat the resources in the form of more meat (give more food = fatter cows = more meat).
B. If we were simply predators, we would have went out and kill animals we see outside. Human civilization has caused us to become parasites.

You should meet a few of my old college roomates...

If we're talking about some sort of unknown mind-control type of thing, then feel free to go crazy with the speculation, as it would no longer be bound by the rules of nature.

Not unknown type of mind control.We can already delete a persons memory through technology,and we're not far away from being able to control a mind.
So if this creature has a similar way of controlling(with a direct link to the victims brain for example),is it seen as "advanced"?

We are parasites by choice because,like someone already said,we can just as well choose to be predators.A leech can't change his mind and go hunt a shark for example.

Have you read "The Mind Parasites" Snake?

Have you read "The Mind Parasites" Snake?

Not really.Why do you ask?

Being an avid student of neuroscience, I am surprised to have missed this. Could you tell me where this claim originates?



Depends on the control. If it is instinctive, meaning that it requires no learning or planning, then no, it would be seen as advanced. Parasites that cause their host animals to fall into dangerous postions would be an example of this. If it requires learning, then it would be seen as advanced. Anything that involves technology, meaning the result of gathered and processed information, that would be considered advanced.

Being an avid student of neuroscience, I am surprised to have missed this. Could you tell me where this claim originates?

My biology teacher told me something among the lines.I thought this is widely accepted.I try to find some information.