In all of my years on earth, some of it being christian, I have never seen anything that proves god exists. No appearances, no visual images, nothing. All I have ever heard was " You just have to believe", & " You have to have blind faith". I can't believe in an entity I can't see or relate too. The OT & NT book is basically fiction and fantasy. So I don't believe anyone really saw an image of any kind. If it's claimed as a spirit, then I really can't believe that either, since I have never experienced one of those.
Has anyone really seen this god they claim to worship?

you have it right curiosity there is no god that is why no one has or will ever see him/her/it......although it is about faith. Can you believe in something just because so many other people do? because it was written down 2000 years ago and men have used it to control others? it's your call but to answer the question. the only people who have claimed to have seen god, an angel or whatever can't prove it so it''s still left to that blind faith again

No bacca I can't believe it. I just wanted to know if anyone has really seen it. I'm like you, I don't think anyone has either, or ever will. christians say they hear it and it speaks to them all of the time. I have things that speak to me too, but I look at that as MY inner voice. My concience or sub-concious brain doing the talking, not an entity.

I agree....besides that fact that i'm sort of wierded out at the idea that some people actually want this all knowing entity watching them 24 hours a day...I don't know about you but there are some times i'm glad that there is no one watching

Why is there something instead of nothing, God is the energy that takes many forms and is unlimited in possibilities, In there somewhere you can find something that will work for you or not, If you live a life that you love and are a joy to be around does it matter if you believe in God or not, What if its all God ?????? Namaste Sheri Berri I don't understand I guess why so much debates over whether there is God or isn't a God???? What about just being here now living and enjoying life ????????

Well, since we are going to talk in absolutes I'll go ahead and tell you there is a god.

And nobody ever has seen an angel? Or something to that matter? You know this for a fact that NOBODY has ever or will ever see one?

Besides, no living person can see God. He wouldn't present himself to a living person.

Nobody CAN see this god they claim they worship. Maybe (if anything at all) one would/could see an angel. But God himself wouldn't show his face to anyone at least, not to a mortal person.

I see angels sometimes, but, then again, I have second sight.

YOUR inner voice is the voice you need to hang onto. You can pray with all your energy for the God, a God, the Goddess, a Goddess, spirits, etc to help you, or you can have determination and faith in yourself instead of a being a pawn of modern religious dogma.

Why hasn't God revealed himself? There is no real answer for this question because the faithful and the unfaithful both have accurate and correct opinions. Maybe God doesn't want to show himself, or maybe God doesn't exist. It doesn't matter if followers of him are right or wrong, it just matters what you believe.

My own personal logic, philosophy, and opinions tell me that even if there is a God -- regardless of him being the true god, only god, etc -- and he did show himself still not everyone would believe for a multitude of reasons. Humans are not meant to totally conform, and doing so would disrupt a sort of super-natural balance that would take me more than this post to explain.

So this question really boils down to are you going to have faith in a being that has never been proved to exist -- nor has there been any solid evidence of his existance -- or are you going to have faith in other beings, spirits, yourself, or what. It's just personal choice and opinion, and don't let anyone elses rambling -- including my own -- sway what you feel is right.

I guess you're right in one sense that believers see the limitless possibilities of the forms it takes. I can definitely agree with being here and now living and enjoying life. But alot of people don't see this issue as you do. They see this energy as a real thing they've never seen, and worship it. I don't have a problem with someone worshipping something at all. I don't care, it's just not for me.

Don't you think it a little strange that you have been told it won't show itself to a mortal? I hear the devil is also very shy to mortals too.
If someone told me some outragous story that was to strange to be true about some person and couldn't produce the person to me for proof. I would think I was being spoofed. But as I said in another post, I really don't care if a person worships something or not I was just curious if anyone has seen this entity. Just to prove it exists.

God wouldnt show himself simply because he can use angels.

It would be far more suitable for an angel to make contact with a human, than God himself. People are overwhelmed enough just by seeing the lowest form of angel (in its true form). Just think how they would react to seeing God? The angels get the point across anyway, he uses them as his thoughts. His thoughts are their actions.

I for one haven't seen an angel (that I know of). Even in the bible angels often took human form and even ate while in the presence of humans.

It is my belief that many people could have seen an angel, and not even have known it.

speaking in absolutes: indeed the evidence does exist that gods are a human creation, existing only in the mind and written fairy tales.

this of course will never stop those with the need to find these gods from attaching the god label to whatever natural forces we do identify.

hyper, I 've beenreally holding back on you so far, because many of our beliefs match. Can you see radio waves?sound?xrays? i know we can measure them, but that only means we have discovered how. Has anyone attempted to invent a spiritual e4nergy measuring device? not quack stuff like odic force, but real spiritual energy? At least admit maybe!

I agree with you on this hyper....I would say that if someone wants to believe in something bad enough you can see almost anything...the human mind/imagination is capable of creating many things that aren't there. People have a need to believe in something greater then they are, they have a need to feel like there is a purpose for them being here. I suppose it's to much to swallow that there isn't some grand plan behind all this but alas that's all it is so enjoy life while you have it......

yes, there is much beyond our perception. indeed, we don't discover something until we build a tool to discover it, based on theory that said thing exists.

there is much we have yet to determine. however, the existance of gods is not one of them! whatever is out there, whatever binding forces of the universe we discover, they are NATURAL FORCES and not GODS! there is no need to mystify anything.

It always amazes me on this forum that people get so ANGRY about people believing in a god/godess. And many who don't seem to think that anyone that does is "being a pawn of modern religious dogma". So, people believe in something that can't be scientifically measured or shown. How does the average believer affect anything in your world?

Yes, I know that big organized religion does affect things greatly and terribly, but not every believer in a higher being has anything to do with them whatsoever.

Never say "Can't".

god is just a word to fill in the gap in knowledge. if it is a type of field, call it a field....

think of it this way as well: of all the things done in the name of a "god", do you really want such a loaded word used to describe the mondane? i think not! there may always be people that feel the need to mystify things. so be it. i prefer to call a rock a rock.

edit: further, lets say some creator entity was found to have put the foundations of the universe together. i would call that entity a "creator", not a god. i would not worship it, i would not consider it any more special than an ant. it "would be", what it "would be" and that is it.

Or, maybe, since this is idle speculation, "Worship" might be some form of energy exchange, not yet measured...

and maybe pigs fly

energy constantly "exchanges". it occurs without your knowledge or involvement!

"enlightenment" is achieving an understanding of the nature of things, not the un-nature of things..

as your father showed the surgeon why he is still jewish with a cut of the finger, if i did as quick and simple demonstration showing there are no gods outside of the mind would you accept it or deny it?

Sorry if that Dogma part came out wrong, I was just trying to insult Christianity in a proper and polite manner. I'm all for worshipping Gods and Goddesses but I try to stress that you can pray to yourself too, as in not asking a being for help and do it yourself.


You mean if you worship me I can feed off your energy like a vampire?

again with the closed mind. I feel like I am talking to a "fundie". True scientists don't reject any theory.

closed mind: would that be like insisting that whatever we find out there must somehow be a "god"?

i am not rejecting theory... i am rejecting poppycock! every single believer claims that their gods are "supernatural". now you want to say if we find some unifying forces of the universe these natural forces are a god? there is a term for this. funny you are the one to bring in the word "fundie"!

You are rejecting the unknown.

Again I say that humans are so egotistical and ignorant as to thinking we are the most inteligent beings in the universe (and God is an impossibility).

We are could be ants compared to other beings that we know nothing about.

Suffice it to say there are moments in my life in which I wish that there was no God watching......

All the best,

amal, god help me, you are supporting me again! this has to stop! hahaha!
I was trying to point out that hyper is being as closed minded as a lot of born-again types. His apparent dis-belief, IMHO, is just as damaging. I personally, as I have stated here many times, is somewhere in-between, which, apparently, most people on this website can't stand!

Hello?

Have you never watched a LIVE performance. Performers FEED off of the audience' reactions. I watched the Robin Williams golf skit and as soon as he found what the audience was looking for and they warmed up and started laughing and applauding you could see him turn on like a light bulb.

George Michaels and Elton John is another example they fed off each other and the audience. When someone compliments me or puts their faith in me and trusts me, you know I am going to work that much harder to justify their faith in me.

When I get tired and look over and see a handicapped person doing the same job without a complaint it gives me a kick in my psychological\spiritual butt and gives me an extra shot of adrenalin. Of course we feed off of others.


But as far as the topic goes, the answer is plain and simple logic...

GOD IS A <b> SPIRIT</b> and we must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You cannot SEE a "spirit". A spirit os not a "physical" object.

We must use just a bit of common sense when we consider who and what God is.

to both of you:

who said anything about there being anything more or less "powerful" than humans in the universe? there very well could be all sorts of life forces more advanced than humans.

it is hilarious to see you two refering to closed mindedness when you are doing such a good job of it yourselves! you insist on finding something to call a "god" so you can feel secure in your worlds with something to kneel down in front of. whatever we discover, i call it what it is. whatever we find, you two will somehow find a way to attach a "god" label to it or make it fit into a "god universe". who is really approaching this with preconceived notions?

you want the answers? they lie not in mystifying the universe, and they lie not in this dualistic, mechanistic paradigm the both of you operate within.

Hyper, I can't speak for anyone else but myself; I live in a logical world where nothing is incorrect unless disproved. I don't know empirically whether God exists. As far as I know, no experiment has been successfully devised in reference to this. I have had many spine-tingling experiences as an occultist, but I won't bore you. You probably say they're delusional. I do have second sight. I see spirits, angels, demons, and auras, among other things. Sometimes, I can sense timelines. I have to admit I have never seen "god" per se, but I can only speak for myself. Believe it, call it poppycock, but it doesn't change it. I have participated in many occult experiments I can not describe here, but I know from personal experiences that many, not necessarily all, of these things are real. I have seen "godforms", but not the Judeo-Christian Deity, specifally. If anyone has speccific questions about Occultism, feel free to i.m. me; I will not respond to that type of question in an open forum.

delusional? that would depend on observation.

for the sake of this post lets say humans are capable of perceiving 10% of the spectrum of matter and energy that makes up the universe.

now the quest of both theoretical physics and religion is to unify the universe. it is very important to recognize both are not only in persuit of the same goals (some goals that is, we will leave politics out of this), that they influence each other, but that modern science was born out of a judao-christian framework. this latter point is important in understanding its pressing need to completely break free from its "origins". the reason i am metioning this is because it is important to recognize preconceptions in all areas of study. you speak of frustration over 2 paradigms. try thinking about this over all paradigms!

now back to the 10% example. not all people perceive things the same, nor are all people equally perceptive. 10% is an average. on a bell-curve distribution most people may be around 10%, and in the tails we have people seeing lets say 5% and 15%. maybe you are a person that sees 15% of the spectrum of the universe. the problem for you then is how to describe it. well the easy way is the anecdotal way, is it not? all these fanciful tales made up over the eons fill a wonderful void for you. don't forget you still are operating in the limited mindset of a human, and are experiencing "phenomena" outside the "ordinary" so it is natural to "supernaturalize" the experience. i say what you are expriencing is of the natural universe because everything is of the natural universe. study of it would give us logical, rational, mundane explanations of it (as has happened with so much in our perceptual space.) to put it simply: just because it is not normally within our perceptual range does not mean it is supernatural (or subnatural) but merely that it is not in our perceptual range (would you call ultraviolet light supernatural? would you call bees some kind of god because they see something we do not?).

Since you asked. My best friend in college and I were "into" studying about anything related to occultism. Anything from Buddhism to Voodoo. He found in a book instructions about how to see auras. I tried it, and it worked the first time! I can't explain how it feels, but if I focus my eyes in a certain way, I can see certain things. This includes spirit guides, which would be a Neshama of someone on a higher level (a dead person). Depending on the situation and the lighting, sometimes they take on an almost physical appearance. When I view spirit guides, very often the person being read for has already seen the form, or knew it as an "imaginary friend" as a child. They come from all nations, and vary greatly. But they have an identifiable gander, age, nationality, etc., usually I suppose, representing their last incarnation. yes, they "speak" to me, sometimes. I am not, per se, considered "telepathic"; it's just an ability like being able to sing or speak foreign languages or run fast. It would be great to read minds. They use a lot of sign language. Sometimes I "hear" them, a little, when they want me too, but in my head. "Auditory" manifestations are rare; I have heard things with my physical ears very rarely. Most physics I know who "see auras" don't see it with their physical eyes, like I do. I learned as an inititiate of an occult order how to turn it on and off at will. I guess it's like seeing in black and white, and being able to turn on the color at will.
next-angels. They often look like the traditionsl western cherubim and seraphim, or appear as elementals, or other classes of angelic beings, as in, not a dead person. I have seen little round blobby things, that resemble human form, and yes, they have little wings, or something that looks like them on their little backs. I have "heard" the little blobby things identify themselves as either cherubim or seraphim, they look very similiar to me.if anything the seraphim are less round, and taller.not sure. also, angels and spirit guides seem to have a "direction" to them. there are left-right-appearing ones, etc. not sure what that means.

I won't go into auras, they pretty much look like described in most books i have checked, after I was taught how.

I can also perceive at a distance, even over the telephone, by picturing in my mind over the phone.

Over the years, I have had the opportunity to validate hundreds of psychic experiences. I am not a scientist, but it would be great if I ever had scientific proof and explanation of why I see auras, etc.

Please forgive my intrusion Hyperactive and Gideon Mage, I'm not takings sides
Gideon and this may even be a wrong understanding of Hyperavtices opinion (Don't be mad at me guys) I think what Hyperactive might be trying to say is that you are filtering your understanding of the supernatural, not supernatural God whatever you get the point thruogh a belief system (and hats off to you Gideon you know your Stuff) You cannot understand God (and I use this in the Relative realm dualistic way) Logically and to me thats the point Hperactive is trying to point out, How could Hyperactive be closemined he has no set system he is always willing to modify his beleifs based on new evidence that is the definition of open mindedness. Namaste Sheri Berri

sherri, I don't really have a "belief" system.
religion is just other people's ideas in writing. I use only whatever makes sense to me, and what I perceive. I don't have a particular system like that. I accepy a high probability of the existence of God only because it makes logical sense to me. it seems to fill in some gaps. same thing with reincarnation. if we
a: accept the existence of god, only as a postulate.
b: we may, perhaps, postulate that the energy composing this God permeates all existence, including living things. in living animals this would be the soul.
c: the physical body returns to the physical world.this is a fact.then,
d. why wouldn't this soul energy return to whence it came?
I don't accept any belief systems. there seems to be a little correct in each one.
got it? I don't have a filter. I see what I see. If the person observed by me is raised in the western civilization, usually their surroundings manifest using those terms. I have, hoiwever, no personal filter, i just open my eyes.

May i ask what is an Occultist??????

as I said not long ago,

I didn't see that, may I ask why? If you posted that somewher already than I apologize..

i won't answer that since you didn't message me.

Fair enough, I'm thankyou for the other It adds a deeper perspective to you that I wasn't seeing at first> Namaste Sheri Berri

Yes Sheri. Gideon is seeing the world through a filter as is evident in his even using the word "god" to describe a "creative force" as opposed to refering it in the lines of "a creator force is a possibility that I see as....." (he is anthropomorphizing the universe and not even recognizing it which in itself is to pre-suppose quite a bit)

i am just using that word as common currency here. God/the force/the source/tao/dharmakaya/tathagata/makes no diff. I am just communicating to you guys here.it's a word that we all sort of understand.just a word.choose a different one if you like, and i will use it.

the topic was:


not, for example, "If there really was a Shiva"
or "if there really was a tao".
get it? no filters. not for me.
choose a term and i will not only use it, i will view the universe that way.

when i look at your posts i see an application of "filtering", i.e seeing things via the "occultism" or other religious/mythological books you have studied. the mind is very active and interested in categorizing things. this is why we can pre-condition someone with a stimulus and have it effect what they see when later presented with a second stimulus. i say that your preconditioning is in the study of occult leading you to see things in that way when presented with ambiguous stimuli.

edit:
just for comparisn think about your wordings and the views of a man 10000 years ago in describing thunder. "i don't understand it fully, so there must be a higher force".

we understand thunder now.....

yet man has changed so little.

hyper, the weird part is that i studied to understand what i was seeing and feeling, not the other way around. believe what you will.it's not important. i am an initiate. the school of thought that i was trained in eschewed "belief" of any kind except as a temporary tool. I've studied a lot of different things from most of the important cultures on earth. they are all so similiar it doesn't matter which you choose. I have an extreme distaste for christian, muslim and lormon thought, but that would not stop me from using their symbolism if i had the need for a moment. i actually have had to use some of it one time or another, and it worked fine. for example. if i knew someone was troubled by a djinn, i would not even think of casting it out in the name of jesus or buddha. I would seek islamic information, and carefully check the source.what books do you think i have read?

i was going only on references you have used in other threads.

whether you "saw X", and then read a book which you found revealed a possible explanation of "X", or you came to view "X" in a certian way becuase of past experinces is arguable. you are a product of your past. your past does create filters that one must deliberately overcome if one wants to see past these restraints. (that is why i am as critical of much of what happens in science as i am of mysticism.)

Hyperractive I think you are explaining this very well, Pure creation only begins in the present , now, because thats all there is. Gideon i would of to had you not of clarified from reading past posts that you "filter' You are very sharp mentally that what shows Namaste Sheri

nah, at the age of 51 i am getting a little senile.

Well we should all be so senile at that age.

well, it is good to finally had a conversation with you gideon (usually we don't "square off"). Indeed you are 'sharp', but never forget to consider the built up habits of a lifetime ). always forcing yourself to take a different look is the way to stay fresh.

even the sharpest pencil in the box.... (a comparison to duller pencils does not mean that that the sharpest pencil is indeed a sharp pencil! that is why diversity is so important. otherwise we all become 'dull pencils')

Spoken like a true messenger hyperactive, I always say this I have no interest in sitting and listening to myself talk( by people agreeing with me by us all believing the same) I only have to open my mouth for that , lets not agree and really have a conversation I find those that are "not structured" very fasinating. Namaste Sheri

God is Spirit.

Peace, JuneyGirl