Teotihuacans "R" Us?

A few years ago, I turned to find myself staring at half a century of living. One of the many gifts that I received from my wife for having reached this “golden” birthday, was a book entitled TEOTIHUACAN, THE CITY OF GODS. It was a book that I noticed at the "Splendors" exhibit (3000 years of Mexican Art) in 1991 at the San Antonio Museum of Art. Since Teotihaucan happens to be one of my archaeological favorites, I proceeded to leverage for such a gift over the course of a year, and to my surprise, I was rewarded...it is indeed a fine book. I mentally devoured the book on Columbus day -- a perfect time to review the Americas before the invasion/s. It is still one of my favorites and I return to its pages frequently.

The mysterious Teotihaucan was a great Mesoamerican city situated in the Teotihaucan Valley, which is northeast of the ancient lake of Texcoco or the present-day site of Mexico City. In its time, it was the largest metroplex in the Americas covering some 14-16 square miles and supporting a population of between 100,000 to 250,000 (depending on the source). The four phases of the city's life, spanned from 500 BC to its violent end, somewhere around AD 750. The Aztecs who gave it the name of Teotihaucan -- "the place where the gods are created", later excavated the site. Archaeologists believe that this city was larger than Rome during their common existence period.

To me this well-planned metro is a grand enigma, as are most of the ancient cities of Mesoamerica, but Teotihaucan was the model, the forerunner of other great and old "engineering feats" (the cities) that are found in profusion throughout the beautiful nations south of our border. Teotihaucan's city planners must have been geniuses to configure such a massive tribute to urban living. For us to do as well, would require the ability to fly or use overhead photography just to determine trial and error designs. It is no village, for its ceremonial center is not unlike any governmental complex in today's modern world including Washington D.C. The pyramids of the Sun and the Moon dominate the site along with other notables such as the Templo de Quetzalcoatl located in a vast complex called the Ciudadela which covers an area of 133,000 square yards. These major constructions along with others are located on a two and a half-mile causeway called the “Avenue of the Dead.” One must see this city to truly appreciate the levels of human intellect and engineering expertise that it took to build such a metropolis.

Teotihuacan presents another feature that is also arcane to the extreme. T. C. Overstreet and other historical researchers have pointed out, time after time, that enormous, thick sheets of mica were found by archaeologists on the fifth level of the Sun Pyramid in mid 1900s. Later, at 400 meters down from the Sun Pyramid, reported by the Viking Foundation, another mica slab was found of considerable size: some 27.5 meters square (92 feet square) near the Avenue of the Dead. To the astonishment of all archaeologists, it was identified as a type of mica that is found in South America, and nowhere else. This begs the question of why was this particular type of mica removed and transported some 3218.6 kilometers (2000 miles) to be incorporated into the building site at Teotihuacan? How could something this large be transported in a Stone Age period of history? It is also to be noted that similar finds of South American mica were discovered in certain Olmec sites. This is the “silver bullet” of the archaeological world, which proclaims that the technology of the ancients is far removed from what we consider it to have been. Mica is utilized as insulation to atomic expressions. Who knew of atomics then?

Evidence suggests that Teotihaucan came to a sudden and tumultuous end. The site was burned, dug up, then covered up, and roofs were torn apart. Craters were found on the floors and on the buildings. What created these aberrations, no one knows. When Cortez passed by while running from the Aztecs, he hardly noted that he was passing through an ancient site since it was overgrown and covered in the debris of time. According to Eduardo Matos Moctezuma who wrote this book and has directed excavations on numerous Pre-Columbian archaeological sites in the Americas; Teotihaucan was a victim of its own highly stratified society. He indicates that a powerful minority that controlled every psychological, religious, and socioeconomic factor that made up the populace governed the city-state. He believes that the people revolted against the elite after becoming so fed up with the imposition of power politics via religion and emotional threats. Deep resentments began to manifest in every section of the city, the surrounding suburban areas and satellite cities. It imploded of its own. The people got mad as hell and threw the bums out.

Such a great civilization, pushed to oblivion by complexity and emotionality, turned upon itself and chewed every part of its very being to pieces -- a catharsis on a massive scale. I began looking at Teotihaucan as a mirror of where we are in time with our present civilization. Juxtaposing the mood of today's humanity against the evidence of past government-heavy experiments, I realized that just like them, we were becoming a nation of burnt-out natives. We are constantly threatened with incessant litigation, taxes in the name of deficit spending, and government programs. This, a reflection just like the ancients, is leveraged through emotional blackmail for taxing or political (religious?) purposes. Our media and the old-ones' billboard pyramids, both broadcast a constant barrage of how we must politically change to meet the demands of the elite. It’s all the same. Will humanity's fate mirror the people of Teotihaucan? How many times has this happened in Earth's history?

Could the world's "priesthood" of governmental elitists tout themselves and their programs, via "their" media, to such a burdensome point of misinformation and financial saturation, that outsiders would turn on each other and our civilization as we are now experiencing with Bin Laden's growing organization, Afghanistan and the circumstances of Sept. 11th. Or, have we overextended our burgeoning liberal philosophy (political correctness) to the point of conservative rebellion? Life, liberty and the constant positioning for human happiness is what keeps the people in balance. When humankind is pushed to the breaking point, or a catalyst is inserted, civilization tends toward self-infliction or war as a method of cleansing, thus changing its very being in the process. Sometimes it improves or is destroyed as with Teotihuacan.

Lessons of the past must serve us as a deterrent from doing what others have done to themselves. We should look at Teotihaucan and learn from its example. People need order and discipline, but we do not need to lose our freedom because others have forgotten why we have governments...for the benefit of all the PEOPLE.

Teotihuacan is not a very good mirror for the modern world.
In those days a drought would cause a change in leadership, or invasion by another tribe.
And teotihuacan isn't really all that remarkable when you consider the far more ancient mesoamerican cities of Caral and aspero
Aspero right on the peruvian coast was inhabited from 4000bce onwards.
Caral was inhabited from about 3500bce onwards.
Teotihuacan at the far later date of 2500bce for its founding is still a marvel of the ancient world.
The egyptians in comparison were poor masons.
The enigma of the Mica floor is another of those that has been so speculated on that no one knows the actual facts anymore.
The fact that no mica of that type has ever been found in Mexico doesn't mean that It has to have been bought from the jungles of south america.
It may mean simply that the ancients were better at finding Raw materials in 4000bce than we are now.
Thats not hard to imagine if you consider that they may have used every piece they ever found in mexico before we came on the scene.
The enigma of mesoamerican culture isn't as mysterious as it first looks either.
Most Geneologists now agree that the origins of meso american indians lies in the micronesian and polynesian peoples who followed the 30th parallel island hopping across the pacific. Aspero is right on the 30th parallel in the place most likely that a traveller from the pacific would come ashore. Geneologists also now claim that polynesians and micronesians as races have their origins in Korea of all places, so the path from east to west is well founded
If you therefore consider that every Native at some point passed through Caral then the technology required to build later cities follows a linear Path.
It's who taught the people of Tahiti to build Pyramids that is the real mystery.
Theyre the first stop.
The myths of these island peoples along this route are almost unanimous in their beliefs that long ago the gods passed through on their way to Peru causing waves of immigration as people followed them.
But who were the gods, ay theres the rub. Most of the legends about them repeat the names Anu and Ur in one form or another. The name Anu isn't all that surprising as it appears in the legends of sixout of the seven continents. But the word Ur appears in many S american place names taken from long dead native languages. Uruguay for instance which is named after the Uruguay river.
who named the river in 3000bce ?

I know you cannot be serious since the Viking Foundation has all the material on the Mica find. I certainly have faith in that foundation and respect the sources that fed me the above information. Perhaps you have been wrong in considering the great merit of the builders of this great site. As an engineer, I know the survey work is indeed above average and there is much more to come on this down the road.

Cheers,
Orion

In all fairness to the Viking Foundation there are many ways to interpret the evidence Mr Cook.
The viking foundation has not carried out extensive geological surveys across mexico
And if they did. the data they collected would be 3000 years too late to be relevant..
mica is mica is mica.
I have a small amount of faith in the Viking foundation.
What I don't have faith in is spurious claims that nobody could have possibly built such a thing with their level of technology.
Obviously the teotihuacanos knew the Mica was there.
or they wouldn't have built a temple on top of it.
There is quite a lot of evidence that the Mica remains unchanged in its original location and that the temple was built on that location solely for that reason.
An absence of evidence in this case either way makes speculation quite pointless and detracts from the pursuit of truth.
Also copy and pasteing large amounts in this forum is frowned upon. you're better off outlining your hypothesis and then linking to Mystica
You'll have noticed how few responses this thread has got.
Thats not because of a lack of interest in mesoamerica in this forum.
Good to talk to someone else that knows what they're talking about in this area all the same.
Do you have any opinions on Aspero ?

Hey Marduk found some one to play with!, (joking marduk).

Hey, now wait a minute! I think meso-america is fascinating. I would like to hear more thoughts/theories about the ancient cities of Peru. I hear rumors that South American ruins have been found that may date many thousands of years before Caral and Aspero.
Perhaps the inhabitants of Easter Island made their way to Chile when the resources ran out on their tiny island.
Who knows how far back settlers may have arrived from the South Pacific at South America? Early settlers (10,000, 20,000+) years ago may not have arrived in great enough numbers to create a lasting culture. They may have had just a few fishing settlements and then disappeared without a trace.
I agree that natural disaster seems more likely to cause an ending to early meso-american civilizations than social upheaval.
Today Central America is still reeling from the aftermath of Hurrican Mitch (Oct. 1998). If such a catastrophic storm were to devastate a meso-american capital, it might spell the end. If the ruling class was killed in such a stratified civilization, the survivors may not have known how to carry on. They may have broken down into warring bands and scattered to the four winds.
Anyway, do post more on this topic. I'm interested!

Good one, Isis!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, do post more on the topic. This is very interesting and I like to read others thoughts and opinions on the topic.

It appears to me that someone here is in dire need of controlling the scene. Perhaps a stay in that old room would be good once more. I have yet to see any evidence of refutation from Marduk that is factual other than the typical attack utilizing informal fallacy and other heavy handed positioning. But, this is good. One must be prepared to deliver more proof on various subjects than the usual.

Secondly, I did not use my name in this forum and I would ask Marduk not to use anything but Orion von Koch which is my ancestral family name. I came here hoping to enjoy some intellectual increase and I hope I will not be disappointed.

I firmly believe in the Viking Foundation and if one has evidence that they are not creditable I would love to hear the data. If not, words in counter are not sufficient.

Orion

Orion you seem to have misinterpreted what i said as an attack
it wasn't
it was my opinion
if you've just come in here to paste to yes men then go ahead
i wont bother to respond again
you didn't even answer the one little question i asked you anyway

Just checking you out. As a former agent of the state, I tend to run a psychological profile on everyone who jumps on some of my stuff. It is a protection devise. Please post all your stuff anytime. I am easy. I do like to laugh at myself. So, don't hold back.

Orion

Abnormal psychology might help in my case.
the origin of the mica aside ...
what do you think it was there for
and do you have any opinions on aspero.
its recently been dated 4000bce.
So its first city really.
and right on the 30th parallel again

So, let me see if I understand what it is your trying to say Orion.


The mica from the sun temple was mined from 2,000 miles away.

Mica is a radiation shielding material.

They used mica in the construction for some purpose and went to great trouble to obtain it.

I do also know that obsidian tools traced to Mexico and dated over 4,000 years old have been dug in Illinois.

Are you suggesting that teh mayans used mica because of its shielding properties?

I also don't undertand your segue into the last few paragraphs;

The Mayan civilization collapsed because of rebellion by the opressed.

So have a lot of other civilizations.

Modern Mexico has a huge class distinction and very narrow wealth distribution.

I do not believe it is the first or oldest. I believe it is isolated and will eventually be shown to be older still. The people of this region were survivors of the great catastrophe that took place beginning in about 10,500 BC and continued for some 2 to 3 thousand years. First there was a punctuated event...the comet, then the orbital deterioration that lasted some years after the event. More to come.

I do not believe it is the first or oldest. I believe it is isolated and will eventually be shown to be older still. The people of this region were survivors of the great catastrophe that took place beginning in about 10,500 BC and continued for some 2 to 3 thousand years. First there was a punctuated event...the comet, then the orbital deterioration that lasted some years after the event. More to come.

Yes, according to Mayan astronomy and legend, they were living in the 3rd era of mankind.
I think it's possible, the Egyptians also had similar legends.
But where is the archeological proof?
there is geological proof of a cataclysmic event close to the Yucatan penninsula.

Actually, that's not true

There are a number of varieties of mica, the main 2 being muscovite and biotite. The former is often white, almost transparent whilst the later is much darker.

So, the first question must be: which variety are we talking about?

Secondly, mica is a mineral which is found in association with other minerals in various igneous and metamorphic rocks. Biotitic micas, for example, form the black specks in most granites. By isotopic analysis it's possible to show that any piece of mica came from a specific rock type. I assume that this is what has happened in this case?

Lastly, I have never heard of a single piece of mica being anything like as big as 92 square feet. 92 square inches, maybe..... Which suggests therefore that it may have been several smaller sheets fused together? Thus making transport easier.

The archaeological proof says that Aspero was founded in about 4000bce
you're 6500 years off Orion.
i see why you like Hancocks work now
you believe it
So you're for the pre ice advanced society contingent.
there is no evidence of that at all

I do not think I was discussing the Maya above. Are we jumping to another subject?

Dj jumps all over the place with his posts
We're discussing mesoamerica as far as I know.

No, I am mealy stating that the mayans had the beleif that they were in the 3rd and final era of mankind. I'm not sure what the Teotihuacans beleived, I am not well researched in that erea.

Nobody else does either

Gee...No evidence. Over the next few weeks, you will have to retract those words.

orion,

I pm you asking for a few recomendations on books I could read on what you have been posting but being that your new i'm not sure if you know how to use the Private Message feature on these boards.

uhuh so you know all about the teotihuacanos then.
you know like who they were that sort of thing
cos last time i checked nobody else did.
is it a secret ?

I am very new here...and remember I am 63. Not as fast as I once was. I still think fairly well, but I am a little behind the curve.

I only stated that becuase when i first came on here i never realized they had a private message feature till a few weeks later. I wasnt sure if you didnt respond becuase you didnt want to or becuase maybe you didnt know how to check your personal messages. That was the only reason i posted that here.
I never meant it as a insult by any means. I think your a very intelligent person and I have always thought our elders have alot to show us. I am truly interested in learning more on the subject you posted if you wouldnt mind posting some additional resources.

Oh sure. I would be glad to post all the stuff I have regarding just about any subject. I have many students and I am here to learn along with you all. I am always very happy to help anyone.

O.

Isn't the astroid crater at Yucatan theorized to be the one that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago?

I'm not sure about the comet event to which Orion was refering, but 10,500 years ago was the middle of the ice age. The ice sheets didn't reach to southern Mexico, so perhaps people of North America migrated to C.America in retreat from the glaciers.

Want to bet some money on that, were giving ten to one odds,

put me down for $100.

10,500 years ago something created the Carolina Bays Event. In Andrew Collins' book GATEWAY TO ATLANTIS this material may be examined. You may read for yourselves. See page 280.

or if you don't like buying books with "Atlantis in the Title you could always go to this .edu site that has the actual facts.
whats with the preoccupation with the 10,500 date anyway Orion
thats way before atlantis sunk in the fictional story told by Plato
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cbaymenu.html

More info on the Carolina Bays and a (serious) cometary origin theory: http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cbayint.html

See also: http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2004AM/finalprog...tract_78899.htm and http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprog...tract_60306.htm

Note: there is no evidence linking these features to an impact date of 10,500BC (or 10,500BP)

Unfortunately Collins has a habit of not checking the sources for his geological/climatological info - much of what he says about events surrounding the end of the ice age, for example, is pure fiction, originating in early 20th century creationist literature...... This in turn means we must at least question other things he says. Although, I do find his books enjoyable in most respects

Yes, and having come from the world of the University and the pomp associated with the research carried on there, I am totally familiar with the hype-factor. The Body of Knowledge...is Bowelmovium Splatus. It is known as Informal fallacy Personified...to the Endth Degree. People, use your brains. There is a new day coming where we are going to reevaluate the silly rules of what was. I lived that life of lies for far too long. In Informal Fallacy work...a Non-sequitur does not follow so a Bandwagon Effect has been developed to sell reality to you. Think Deeper. There are those who have invested their lives in this grand lie and must follow the crowd. All I ask is to keep an open mind.

O.

keep an open mind and also buy into the biggest conspiracy theory of all time
take your own advice Orion

I do. That is why I have an extensive library of some 2,000 books. My mind is wide open and I also have access to some very good data via my friends who are archaeologists. Everything is up in the air at present and in the near future you will see what I mean. Hide and watch.

hiding is keeping an open mind ?
i'd rather stand up and be counted !!
more my style
p.s. 2000 isn't extensive
i have about 5000 personally
most of them are rubbish
problem with books that you don't get with websites is that i have yet to see a book that has a .edu adress.
know what i mean

Hmm, maybe you should read some of them, no?

your bad Ed

Well I did not want to Boast Marduk. I have 2.500 here and there are 9,000 more in storage according to my cousin. The family is a university clan and we are crazy about information. Well Texas Rangers and all. Information does drive the universe.

By the By I have always been here and there...your poem.

Indeed Ed, I have read them all at least three times...speed read, slow read, and a study with notes in the margins. Careful, I am a worthy friend.

See what I mean.

Uhuh
everyone takes things too seriousely in here anyway
I'm gonna post something like "Donny Osmond built the pyramids" just to relieve the monotony

See what I mean...yeah, some do see.

it wasnt about you orion if you want to know what i was talking about I can PM you

The sirians built the pyramids huh. You know your probably going to get some people that actually believe you right. I wont mention any names but i think he's lucid dreaming through life.

No need. If you had read my book/s you would know why.

O.

Can you send me a free copy of your book please?

Orion again i wasnt referring to you. I was referring to a gentleman that uses the screen name of LucidElement. He tends to believe everything he hears no matter how ridiculous it may be. Marduk always has to set him straight. I have told you already I respect you as well as your knowledge your sharing with us. Thats why I requested additional resources from you so i can learn more

Free? I guess if you don't ask...? Hey it is online. Easy reading...don't you know. If you need to, print it off. It is Meta-fiction...at present.