But anyway, Dec. 21st, 2012, that is when the mayan calendar supposedly ends. Many believe that this will be when the world ends. What is your thoughts on this subject?
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Isn't this the day when the Mayan people come back to earth?

I know there where legends when the Mayan people where attacked by the spanish conquestidores (or what there name is) the maya high priest counsel left of in some sort of Space-ship.

I believe there were drawings found about this scene...

D. knows little about the mayan history...
...he still wants to go see their pyramides.
[right][snapback]745719[/snapback][/right]

Isn't this the day when the Mayan people come back to earth?

I know there where legends when the Mayan people where attacked by the spanish conquestidores (or what there name is) the maya high priest counsel left of in some sort of Space-ship.

I believe there were drawings found about this scene...

[right][snapback]745719[/snapback][/right]

Wasn't sure what to put this under, but I think it is a legend so...

But anyway, Dec. 21st, 2012, that is when the mayan calendar supposedly ends. Many believe that this will be when the world ends. What is your thoughts on this subject?
[right][snapback]745647[/snapback][/right]

21st Deecmber 2012 is simply the end of the current Mayan calendar cycle and the start of the next one.  It has as much significance as midnight on 31st December does for us in the west every year....... 

The real question (which rarely gets asked) is why did the current Mayan calendar cycle start when it did?
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Ummm.....because it would be silly to start a calander on a date that has already passed? but I could be wrong
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It is more likely that they simply believed that 2012 was a suitable cut off point to move ahead to. Why waste time, effort, and manpower planning so far ahead that it would take thousands upon thousands of generations to ever see the dates ahead. "Well lads, we're up to 2012...this'll do us for now, we'll worry about the rest in the year 2000."
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*runs around in circles* THE END IS COMING THE END IS COMING!!!!


*sits down on a chair and drinks some coffee and waits*
[right][snapback]745786[/snapback][/right]

Isn't this the day when the Mayan people come back to earth?

I know there where legends when the Mayan people where attacked by the spanish conquestidores (or what there name is) the maya high priest counsel left of in some sort of Space-ship.

I believe there were drawings found about this scene...

D. knows little about the mayan history...
...he still wants to go see their pyramides.
[right][snapback]745719[/snapback][/right]

About the Mayan people coming back to Earth at the end of the world, isn't strange that the Bible mentions a similar story?
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Imagine having this conversation:

"I saw the bombs fall.  You could see the blast from the crater that was once New York all the way out here.  You could feel the heat from Nevada on your skin.  When the ash started to fall, my father pulled me inside the bomb shelter."

"Wow, mom, I didn't know you were that old!"



I've heard about the white buffolo.  Heard about it before 9/11.  There's supposed to be so many years of war, and then a new age of peace and prosperity.

Well...there's war now.

Anyway, maybe the end of this cycle is not through war and violence, but through peace.  Maybe when technology fails, we have a new age of peace and prosperity foretold by the Mayan calendar and brought about by the white buffolo.
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How do I get my weirdness quotient?

Sorry to be off topic, but just click on the purple box at the bottom of my signature, it will lead you to a funny little multiple choice answer survey that will determine your weirdness quotient. after you take it you will discover that I really am not very weird at all.... hence my response to my number!!
[right][snapback]777605[/snapback][/right]

Sorry to be off topic, but just click on the purple box at the bottom of my signature, it will lead you to a funny little multiple choice answer survey that will determine your weirdness quotient. after you take it you will discover that I really am not very weird at all.... hence my response to my number!!
[right][snapback]777605[/snapback][/right]

Among their other accomplishments, the ancient Mayas invented a calendar of remarkable accuracy and complexity. At right is the ancient Mayan Pyramid Chichen Itza, Yucatan, Mexico. The Pyramid of Kukulkan at Chichén Itzá, constructed circa 1050 was built during the late Mayan period, when Toltecs from Tula became politically powerful. The pyramid was used as a calendar: four stairways, each with 91 steps and a platform at the top, making a total of 365, equivalent to the number of days in a calendar year.

The Maya calendar was adopted by the other Mesoamerican nations, such as the Aztecs and the Toltec, which adopted the mechanics of the calendar unaltered but changed the names of the days of the week and the months. An Aztec calendar stone is shown at right (below).

The Maya calendar uses three different dating systems in parallel, the Long Count, the Tzolkin (divine calendar), and the Haab (civil calendar). Of these, only the Haab has a direct relationship to the length of the year.

A typical Mayan date looks like this: 12.18.16.2.6, 3 Cimi 4 Zotz.

12.18.16.2.6 is the Long Count date.
3 Cimi is the Tzolkin date.
4 Zotz is the Haab date.

What is the Long Count?
The Long Count is really a mixed base-20/base-18 representation of a number, representing the number of days since the start of the Mayan era. It is thus akin to the Julian Day Number.

The basic unit is the kin (day), which is the last component of the Long Count. Going from right to left the remaining components are:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

uinal (1 uinal = 20 kin = 20 days)
tun (1 tun = 18 uinal = 360 days = approx. 1 year)
katun (1 katun = 20 tun = 7,200 days = approx. 20 years)
baktun (1 baktun = 20 katun = 144,000 days = approx. 394 years)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The kin, tun, and katun are numbered from 0 to 19.
The uinal are numbered from 0 to 17.
The baktun are numbered from 1 to 13.

Although they are not part of the Long Count, the Mayas had names for larger time spans. The following names are sometimes quoted, although they are not ancient Maya terms: 1 pictun = 20 baktun = 2,880,000 days = approx. 7885 years
1 calabtun = 20 pictun = 57,600,000 days = approx. 158,000 years
1 kinchiltun = 20 calabtun = 1,152,000,000 days = approx. 3 million years
1 alautun = 20 kinchiltun = 23,040,000,000 days = approx. 63 million years

The alautun is probably the longest named period in any calendar.

When did the Long Count Start?
Logically, the first date in the Long Count should be 0.0.0.0.0, but as the baktun (the first component) are numbered from 1 to 13 rather than 0 to 12, this first date is actually written 13.0.0.0.0.

The authorities disagree on what 13.0.0.0.0 corresponds to in our calendar. I have come across three possible equivalences:

13.0.0.0.0 = 8 Sep 3114 BC (Julian) = 13 Aug 3114 BC (Gregorian)
13.0.0.0.0 = 6 Sep 3114 BC (Julian) = 11 Aug 3114 BC (Gregorian)
13.0.0.0.0 = 11 Nov 3374 BC (Julian) = 15 Oct 3374 BC (Gregorian)

Assuming one of the first two equivalences, the Long Count will again reach 13.0.0.0.0 on 21 or 23 December AD 2012 - a not too distant future.

The date 13.0.0.0.0 may have been the Mayas' idea of the date of the creation of the world.

What is the Tzolkin?
The Tzolkin date is a combination of two "week" lengths.

While our calendar uses a single week of seven days, the Mayan calendar used two different lengths of week:

a numbered week of 13 days, in which the days were numbered from 1 to 13
a named week of 20 days, in which the names of the days were:


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0. Ahau 1. Imix 2. Ik 3. Akbal 4. Kan
5. Chicchan 6. Cimi 7. Manik 8. Lamat 9. Muluc
10. Oc 11. Chuen 12. Eb 13. Ben 14. Ix
15. Men 16. Cib 17. Caban 18. Etznab 19. Caunac

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The diagram at right shows the day symbols, in the same order as the table above.

As the named week is 20 days and the smallest Long Count digit is 20 days, there is synchrony between the two; if, for example, the last digit of today's Long Count is 0, today must be Ahau; if it is 6, it must be Cimi. Since the numbered and the named week were both "weeks," each of their name/number change daily; therefore, the day after 3 Cimi is not 4 Cimi, but 4 Manik, and the day after that, 5 Lamat. The next time Cimi rolls around, 20 days later, it will be 10 Cimi instead of 3 Cimi. The next 3 Cimi will not occur until 260 (or 13 x 20) days have passed. This 260-day cycle also had good-luck or bad-luck associations connected with each day, and for this reason, it became known as the "divinatory year."

The "years" of the Tzolkin calendar are not counted.

When did the Tzolkin Start?
Long Count 13.0.0.0.0 corresponds to 4 Ahau. The authorities agree on this.

What is the Haab?
The Haab was the civil calendar of the Mayas. It consisted of 18 "months" of 20 days each, followed by 5 extra days, known as Uayeb. This gives a year length of 365 days.

The names of the month were:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Pop 7. Yaxkin 13. Mac
2. Uo 8. Mol 14. Kankin
3. Zip 9. Chen 15. Muan
4. Zotz 10. Yax 16. Pax
5. Tzec 11. Zac 17. Kayab
6. Xul      12. Ceh      18. Cumku

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In contrast to the Tzolkin dates, the Haab month names changed every 20 days instead of daily; so the day after 4 Zotz would be 5 Zotz, followed by 6 Zotz ... up to 19 Zotz, which is followed by 0 Tzec.

The days of the month were numbered from 0 to 19. This use of a 0th day of the month in a civil calendar is unique to the Maya system; it is believed that the Mayas discovered the number zero, and the uses to which it could be put, centuries before it was discovered in Europe or Asia.

The Uayeb days acquired a very derogatory reputation for bad luck; known as "days without names" or "days without souls," and were observed as days of prayer and mourning. Fires were extinguished and the population refrained from eating hot food. Anyone born on those days was "doomed to a miserable life."

The years of the Haab calendar are not counted.

The length of the Tzolkin year was 260 days and the length of the Haab year was 365 days. The smallest number that can be divided evenly by 260 and 365 is 18,980, or 365×52; this was known as the Calendar Round. If a day is, for example, "4 Ahau 8 Cumku," the next day falling on "4 Ahau 8 Cumku" would be 18,980 days or about 52 years later. Among the Aztec, the end of a Calendar Round was a time of public panic as it was thought the world might be coming to an end. When the Pleaides crossed the horizon on 4 Ahau 8 Cumku, they knew the world had been granted another 52-year extension.

When did the Haab Start?
Long Count 13.0.0.0.0 corresponds to 8 Cumku. The authorities agree on this.

Did the Mayas Think a Year Was 365 Days?
Although there were only 365 days in the Haab year, the Mayas were aware that a year is slightly longer than 365 days, and in fact, many of the month-names are associated with the seasons; Yaxkin, for example, means "new or strong sun" and, at the beginning of the Long Count, 1 Yaxkin was the day after the winter solstice, when the sun starts to shine for a longer period of time and higher in the sky. When the Long Count was put into motion, it was started at 7.13.0.0.0, and 0 Yaxkin corresponded with Midwinter Day, as it did at 13.0.0.0.0 back in 3114 B.C.E. The available evidence indicates that the Mayas estimated that a 365-day year precessed through all the seasons twice in 7.13.0.0.0 or 1,101,600 days.

We can therefore derive a value for the Mayan estimate of the year by dividing 1,101,600 by 365, subtracting 2, and taking that number and dividing 1,101,600 by the result, which gives us an answer of 365.242036 days, which is slightly more accurate than the 365.2425 days of the Gregorian calendar.

(This apparent accuracy could, however, be a simple coincidence. The Mayas estimated that a 365-day year precessed through all the seasons twice in 7.13.0.0.0 days. These numbers are only accurate to 2-3 digits. Suppose the 7.13.0.0.0 days had corresponded to 2.001 cycles rather than 2 cycles of the 365-day year, would the Mayas have noticed?)

In ancient times, the Mayans had a tradition of a 360-day year. But by the 4th century B.C.E. they took a different approach than either Europeans or Asians. They maintained three different calendars at the same time. In one of them, they divided a 365-day year into eighteen 20-day months followed by a five-day period that was part of no month. The five-day period was considered to be unlucky.

The Classic Mayan civilization was unique and left us a way to incorporate higher dimensional knowledge of time and creation by leaving us the Tzolkin calendar. The Mayans invented the calendars we use today. The present calendars ends in the year 2012.

By tracking the movements of the Moon, Venus, and other heavenly bodies, the Mayans realized that there were cycles in the Cosmos. From this came their reckoning of time, and a calendar that accurately measures the solar year to within minutes.


The "Calendar Round" is like two gears that inter-mesh, one smaller than the other. One of the 'gears' is called the tzolkin, or Sacred Round. The other is the haab, or Calendar Round.



The Tzolkin consisted of 13 months each 20 days long, and the Haab of 18 months each 20 days long, and five rest days, thus making 365 days. The date was written using both rounds. For example, "6 lk 10 Camber" might be the same as if we wrote "20 June 30 Gemini." (Haab - Calendar round / 20 June, and Tzolkin - Sacred round / 30 Gemini.) As both thesewheels turned so passed the Mayan years. Every 52 years the cycle began again. It was on one of these auspicious years that Cortez landed, thus giving credence to his god image.

Archeologists - claim that the Maya began counting time as of August 31, 3114 B.C. This is called the zero year and is likened to January 1, AD. All dates in the Long Count begin there, so the date of the beginning of this time cycle is written 13-0-0-0-0. That means 13 cycles of 400 years will have passed before the next cycle begins, which is December 27, 2012. The new cycle will begin as 1-0-0-0-0.

A day was called a "kin", and still is today. A 20 day month was a "uinal", one solar year was a "tun", 20 tuns a "katun", and 20 katuns were a "baktun", 13 of which take us back to the August 13, 3114 B.C. date.

Another notable date is 9-9-2-4-8 or July 29, 615 AD when the great King of Palenque, Lord Pakal ascended to the throne.

These dates are carved in stone throughout the Mayan territory, and the numbers can be seen by anyone. Using a vestigial system (they counted all the fingers and toes) and only three characters (we use ten) the Maya could string together very large numbers, these were read from the bottom up. So Pakal ascended on 9-9-2-4-8, that would read:

9 baktuns - 3600 years
9 katuns - 180 years
2 tuns - 730 days
4 uinals - 80 days
8 kin - 8 days

These numbers, if we begin at August 13, 3114 BC, will give us a date in the 7th century that corresponds to the date Pakal took the throne in Palenque.

The Maya also understood the concept of zero, and wrote it like a shell.

With the new century almost upon us time takes on more meaning. January 1, 2000 would be written 12-19-6-1-0 in the Long Count. The Sacred Round would be 9 Ahau and the Haab designation would be 8 Kankin. Thus the Calendar Round would be 9 Ahau 8 Kankin.

So for the Maya there was a time for everything and every thing had it's place in time. The priest used this to their advantage; due to their abilities to interpret the heavens and calendar, they could control the daily activities of the populace. Knowing when to plant, when to harvest, the rainy and dry seasons, etc. gave them total power and control. Their comprehension of time, seasons, and cycles was immense. If the reader is interested in further studies in this (admittedly, complex!) area, I recommend Linda Shele's fine books, A Forest of Kings and The Blood of Kings.

The Wheels of Time ground exceeding fine for the Maya. To be able to predict the seasons for farmers and astronomical events for religious rites, they utilized a calendar of two meshing, repeating cycles. Maya mathematicians could project this calendar millions of years in the past and the future, time had no beginning, no end. The Mays recorded numbers with a system of bars and dots. a dot equals one, a bar stands for five. The smaller wheels together represent the 260-day Sacred Round; the inner wheel, with the numbers one to thirteen, meshes with the glyphs for the 20 day names on the outer wheel. A section of a large wheel represents part of the 365-day year - 18 months of 20 days each (numbered 0-19). The five days remaining at year's end were considered evil. In the diagram, the day shown is read 4 Ahua 8 Cumka. As the wheels turn in the direction of the arrows, in four days it will read 8 Kan 12 Cumku. Any day calculated on these cycles would not repeat for 18,980 days - 52 years.

- "The Maya - Riddle of the Glyphs" National Geographic Magazine

When it came to mathematics, time and calendars, the Maya were geniuses. Believing that time repeated itself in cycles, they devised two calendars, one ritualistic, which was used for religious celebrations and astrological predictions, and the other a solar calendar. Both calendars were based on the calculation that a year had a little more than 365 days, a more precise system than the Gregorian calendar. Following the movement of the sun, moon and stars with such accuracy, the Maya were able to predict such mystifying phenomena as eclipses and the Spring and Autumn equinoxes.

The Maya kept time with a combination of several cycles that meshed together to mark the movement of the sun, moon and Venus. Their ritual calendar, known as the Tzolkin, was composed of 260 days. It pairs the numbers from 1 through 13 with a sequence of 20 day-names. It works something like our days of the week pairing with the numbers of the month. Thus you might have 1-Imix (similar to Sunday the 1st) followed by 2-Ik (just as you would have Monday the 2nd). When you get to 13-Ben, the next day would start the numbers over again, thus 1-Ix, 2-Men etc. It will take 260 days before the cycle gets back to 1-Imix again (13 x 20).

The 20 day-names, meaning and symbol can vary in different Maya languages. Also, each day can be represented with more elaborate glyphs known as "Head Variants" - a formal writing system which can be loosely compared to our script alphabet versus our print alphabet. The Tzolkin calendar was meshed with a 365-day solar cycle called the "Haab". The calendar consisted of 18 months with 20 days (numbered 0-19) and a short "month" of only 5 days that was called the Wayeb and was considered to be a dangerous time. It took 52 years for the Tzolkin and Haab calendars to move through a complete cycle.

These are the Mayan words for periods of time:


Day = Kin (keen)
Month of 20 days = Uinal (wee nal)
Year of 360 days = Tun (toon)
20 Tuns = K'atun (k' ah toon)
20 K'atuns = Baktun (bock toon)

If you would like to convert a date to the Maya calendar, go to the Rabbit on the Moon Web site at http://www.halfmoon.org

Maya Astronomy

The Maya were quite accomplished astronomers. Their primary interest, in contrast to "western" astronomers, were Zenial Passages when the Sun crossed over the Maya latitudes. On an annual basis the sun travels to its summer solstice point, or the latitude of 23-1/3 degrees north.

Most of the Maya cities were located south of this latitude, meaning that they could observe the sun directly overhead during the time that the sun was passing over their latitude. This happened twice a year, evenly spaced around the day of solstice.

The Maya could easily determine these dates, because at local noon, they cast no shadow. Zenial passage observations are possible only in the Tropics and were quite unknown to the Spanish conquistadors who descended upon the Yucatan peninsula in the 16th century. The Maya had a god to represented this position of the Sun called the Diving God.

End of the Mayan Great Cycle: December 21st, 2012 A.D.
Scholars today are recognizing that Mayan mythology is intimately related to the celestial movements of stars, the Milky Way and certain constellations. The sources of  Mayan  mythology are  found in the sky, and the timetable of Creation Day is pinpointed by the end date of the Mayan Great Cycle. My research into the nature of this date reveals that a rare celestial alignment culminates on it. Generally speaking, what occurs is an alignment between the galactic and solar planes. Specifically, the winter solstice sun will conjunct the Milky Way, which is the edge of our spinning galaxy as viewed from earth.  Furthermore, the place where the sun meets the Milky Way is where the  "dark-rift" in the Milky Way is -  a black ridge along the Milky Way caused by interstellar dust clouds (See Diagram 1).



Diagram 1:
The sky on December 21st, 2012 A.D.
showing a rare astronomical alignment -
the winter solstice sun is right in the
"dark rift" in the Milky Way.

This is a feature of the Milky Way anyone can see on a clear midsummer's night, away from the light pollution of industrial  society.  At dawn  on the winter solstice of A.D. 2012, the sun will be  right in this dark-rift, and the orientation is such that the Milky Way rims the horizon at all points around. Thus, the Milky Way "sits" on the earth, touching it at all points around, opening  up  the cosmic sky  portal. The galactic and solar planes are thus aligned. "Sky portal" is just a term to describe the "opened sky" scenario  apparent when the Milky Way rims the horizon. This is not to be confused with the "dark-rift" itself.

In  Mayan myth, the winter solstice sun corresponds to the deity One Hunahpu, also known as First Father. The Mayan Sacred Book,  the Popol Vuh, is all about setting the stage so that the Hero Twins' father (One Hunahpu) can be reborn, thus beginning  a new  World Age. The dark rift has many mythic identities: it  is the Black Road; it is the xibalba be (the Road  to the Underworld); it is a crevice in the branches of the cosmic tree (the Milky Way); it is the mouth of the Cosmic Monster  (often portrayed as a frog, jaguar or snake with tree-like features); it is the birth canal of the Cosmic Mother.

Overall, the dark-rift is best understood as the birth canal of the Cosmic Mother, who we may call First Mother, to complement First Father. In this way we can  trace how these various metaphors are  found  in Mayan Creation Mythology. And the date of this alignment is, again, the end date of the 13-baktun Great Cycle -  a cycle of approximately 5125 years. This all suggests that the ancient Maya were aware of the impending alignment and considered it to be of such importance to be a major transition point, the Creation of a new World Age. In mythological terms, this event is about  the  union of First Father with First Mother or, more accurately, the birth of First Father (the winter solstice sun -  the new World Age ruler) from First Mother (the dark-rift in the Milky Way). The headline appropriate for the upcoming event is: "Cosmic Mother Gives Birth to The First God."

World Ages: The Future, Millennial or Mayan?
The slow process by which the winter solstice sun comes to conjoin the dark-rift in the Milky Way is a function of a phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes. This involves the slow wobbling of the earth's axis, which causes the stellar frame to slowly shift. To observers on earth, it causes the position of the winter solstice sun to slowly move in relation to  celestial background  features such as the Milky Way. A full cycle is  completed in roughly 26,000 years. Approximately 2100 years ago, when both the Long Count calendar and the Popol Vuh were devised by the early Maya, the dark-rift in the Milky Way could be observed some 30 degrees above the dawning winter solstice sun (See Diagram  2).



Diagram 2:
Winter solstice sunrise from the early
Mayan site of Izapa, 50 B.C. Notice
the dark rift in the Milky Way, the
celestial birth canal of Cosmic
Mother, some 30 degrees
above the rising sun.

When these early skywatchers discovered precession, they realized that every winter solstice the cosmic birth canal was moving closer and closer to the dawning sun. The winter solstice sun was called the First Sun, the First Lord or First Father, because it is the first day of the year, the beginning of the sun's annual rebirth into increasing daylight. They calibrated the process, and fixed their Creation Mythology to the future alignment as described. Monuments from the early Mayan site of Izapa clearly  portray, by way of mythological iconography, the anticipated astronomical alignment of the Long Count end date (See Diagram 3).



Diagram 3:
Stela 11 from Izapa shows Cosmic Father
in the "mouth" of Cosmic Mother, the
"dark rift" or "birth canal" in the
Milky Way. This is an image of
the celestial alignment which
culminates in A.D. 2012.

Based upon these simple facts, ancient skywatchers in Mesoamerica  were apparently aware of a subtle celestial process, the precession of the equinoxes. Knowledge of that process, and the fact that a major alignment in that process culminates at the end of  their  Great Cycle, strongly suggest a  cosmological understanding which modern scholars have yet to explore. Understanding this aspect of Mayan astronomy  may help us understand our own impending millennial milestone. What is  going on in the world today? Is an alignment of the planets and stars having some kind of influence? The cycle of the equinoxes is primarily an earth rhythm. Whether we call it Mayan or  millennial, we are living today in the shadows of a rare celestial  juncture. The Mayan myth seems  to remind us that all life springs from the Great  Mother. The transformation of cosmic recreation is  already occurring. Perhaps  we  should look closely at  this celestial alignment, imagine its meanings, and determine what this transformational shift means for future humanity. For the ancient Maya, on the far-future Creation Day which for us arrives soon, First  Mother and First Father join forces to engender a new World Age.