Which reminds me the way the Palestinians are treated by the Israelis is rather similar to the way the glorious Japanese empire treated the Chinese and prisnors of war, like in the Batton death march.

I have to go with the official Truman story: To end WWII.

Plain old logic tells us that the official story is true.

There is little doubt that the original explanation is both valid and true. That doesn't exclude, of course, in fact I would expect a president to take into consideration, that there would also be other benefits to using this particular weapon at this particular time. That we benefit in other ways from a given action, though, does not make those benefits either the sole, or even the primary, reason for carrying out the act.

Are you seriously suggesting that women, babies and the elderly attacked pearl harbour? And the chinese people were treated so appallingly by Japanese women, babies and such?
I think you are alluding to certain acts in the 2nd world war and if so, I agree, these were war crimes, as defined by the mistreatment of civilians in war and the cruel and unusual treatment of military personel.
Exactly how would you describe the dropping of two A bombs on cities that does not include the above description?
When the british empire was built we behaved appallingly to the natives.
When the german empire went up so did they.
So did the Japs,
So did the chinese under Mao.
And so have the americans.

The fact is that cruelty is inherent in all of us and the temptation for such acts is huge. Thats why we have rules of war. And, in my opinion, dropping the A bombs was possibly the most cold, cowardly and cruel war crime in history.

Infact, america would do well to remember that when your forefathers were irratating the hell out of the british church the Japs were already an ancient, highly ordered, highly civilized advanced race. In comparison you are like a toddler thats found dads gun and is robbing the old peoples home.

hmmm I think the world is changing
let it be let it be......
let the war begins

Er, ok. What exactly does that mean?

Cornell University in Ithaca, New York. That's where I'm living right now!

A much more interesting A-bomb related Ithaca person was Hans Bethe, who passed away in 2005. He worked on the Manhattan project and won a Nobel prize for his work on proton-proton reactions. He was named head of Manhattan project's Theoretical Division, and they designed the bomb. When I went to the movie "The Manhattan Project" he was sitting right in front of me in the theater. He never made a sound during the film. I can't imagine a more tragic life for a scientist.

Upon seeing the effects of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, Bethe immediately became an activist for nuclear disarmament and remained so for life. See: http://www.nndb.com/people/023/000025945/ . He was a fascinating person.


Something to remember when we think about the atomic bomb is that Japan and Germany were trying to develop it too. Physics had reached a point where it was obvious that the bomb could be built, and scientists on all sides of the war were working on it (a piece of information I learned at the Memorial Museum in Hiroshima). This fact doesn't justify killing hundreds of thousands of people, but it suggests that the ethical problem was international. Some of the guys who worked on the Manhattan project had immigrated to the US after being invited to join a similar project by Hitler.

I've been to Hiroshima and Nagasaki... I do not see any evidence of 'mutation' nor degradation of the populace. In fact, they were thriving, and they were legitimate targets. You folks sitting in your comfortable chairs debating this should perhaps go and learn about the japanese people at the time of the bombs. They would have fought to the last breathing person. Westerners like us cannot fathom such an outlook...

but then again, we don't know the meaning of honor and loyalty as they did.

Furthermore, before you start launching your own tactical strikes against the US for it's actions.. start in on the japanese themselves.. the raping of Nanking comes to mind... The quartering of US POWS comes to mind... the 'service women' taken by the japanese comes to mind...

How about the Russkies? Or the Cambodians? The defenstration of Prague?

You folks need perspective. Our firebombing tactics in Tokyo, a predominantly wooden city, killed more and did more collateral damage. Our carpet bombing of Dresdin was even more deliberately destructive than the atomic bombs dropped.

Grow up. Dragon Rider, indeed.

Did you have your eyes shut or did you avoid the museums and memorials? I suspect the latter.

So you think that japanese babies, and the elderly, the sick in hospital and all the infirm would rise up and be a risk to the almighty US? Because those are the 'legitimate targets' who you hit.

besides, if we want to list atrocities lets have a look, who invented scalping as proof for indian bounty? Who raped, murdered, robbed and stole in the most despicable manner to 'claim' the land your sitting on.
Who coated the cambodians in napalm in the 60's (Hardly legitimate targets), who tortured, raped, brutalised and murdered the vietnamese villagers?
The list could go on and on.

Before you get offended, we are no better. When we put our empire up we were also guilty of such acts. It is a deplorable act of human nature.
Maybe the a bomb was being developed by other countries but who was the first to use it? Who is usually the first to steam in, all rash, without thinking.
When the US has as much history and its own culture for as long perhaps it will start showing a more mature side to these things, but for now.........

"Did you have your eyes shut or did you avoid the museums and memorials? I suspect the latter."

>>Oh, I saw them. Was I supposed to be impressed?

"So you think that japanese babies, and the elderly, the sick in hospital and all the infirm would rise up and be a risk to the almighty US? Because those are the 'legitimate targets' who you hit."

>>They should not have been standing there.

"besides, if we want to list atrocities lets have a look, who invented scalping as proof for indian bounty?"

>>Other indian tribes invented the process and taught it to the horrible, terrible white man.

"Who raped, murdered, robbed and stole in the most despicable manner to 'claim' the land your sitting on."

>>Every conquerer in the history of humanity. Next.

"Who coated the cambodians in napalm in the 60's (Hardly legitimate targets), who tortured, raped, brutalised and murdered the vietnamese villagers?"

>>Communists, as well as americans, as well as Vietnamese, as well as Cambodians.

"The list could go on and on."

>>Then go on... we can dance this Tandava as long as you like. I will still be leading.

"Before you get offended, we are no better."

>>I'm not offended by ignorance.

"When we put our empire up we were also guilty of such acts. It is a deplorable act of human nature."

>>No. It is indicative of progress. Birth is bloody and painful.

"Maybe the a bomb was being developed by other countries but who was the first to use it?"

>>The people with backbone.

"Who is usually the first to steam in, all rash, without thinking."

>>the people that Eurotrash call upon when their socialist wishes are not solving the problem.

"When the US has as much history and its own culture for as long perhaps it will start showing a more mature side to these things, but for now........."

>>The US has plenty of history and plenty of culture. Your precious 'mature' side is nothing more than cowardice hiding behind fancy words.

No, but it got the job done. Blame it on the Japanese government since they were the aggressor.

Ok, seems fair as I do blame the american government for most of the attrocities taking place in the world today.

And with that reply you have managed to sum up everything the rest of the world so despises about the americans. We, it would seem, ARE offended by ignorance. One thing you seem to have an abundance of.
Keep going dude, your doing my argument far more good than I am.



"Reluctance to use force shows cowardice no more than brute force shows bravery"

Oh and by the way to all of you who hate america and constantly say so.
If I told you right now I don't like you or your country, would you care my opinion?
No?
Keep that in mind.

Ah, but you DO care, otherwise why say anything at all?
Ive never said I hate america, nor americans. Most of the world does get offended by redneck, barely educated, brainwashed rants like the one you quoted, and where do so many come from? I dont mean to generalize, many americans are smart, intelligent people. Some are like our friend above. And THEY tend to have the loudest voices (Empty vessels and all that). I do also think that this action in particular as well as many others in your brief history should qualify as war crimes and your government should be tried for them.
If your sick of americans being slammed surely the ignoramus above would be a better target.

Bit touchy arent we?

QUOTE(Sinanju @ Jan 27 2007, 11:27 AM) *
"Did you have your eyes shut or did you avoid the museums and memorials? I suspect the latter."

>>Oh, I saw them. Was I supposed to be impressed?
Mmm, I smell summat funny, could it be bull?
"So you think that japanese babies, and the elderly, the sick in hospital and all the infirm would rise up and be a risk to the almighty US? Because those are the 'legitimate targets' who you hit."

>>They should not have been standing there.
Damn right, they had no right to be in their homes or at work. Just like the twin towers
"besides, if we want to list atrocities lets have a look, who invented scalping as proof for indian bounty?"

>>Other indian tribes invented the process and taught it to the horrible, terrible white man.
True, but I think someone skipped history 101 here.
"Who raped, murdered, robbed and stole in the most despicable manner to 'claim' the land your sitting on."

>>Every conquerer in the history of humanity. Next.
Wow, now thats power. Imagine getting every conqueror in the history of humanity to fight for your land. Awesome.
"Who coated the cambodians in napalm in the 60's (Hardly legitimate targets), who tortured, raped, brutalised and murdered the vietnamese villagers?"

>>Communists, as well as americans, as well as Vietnamese, as well as Cambodians.
Ah, yes, the age old communist napalm trick.
"The list could go on and on."

>>Then go on... we can dance this Tandava as long as you like. I will still be leading.
I think he may have bruised toes and shins by now though
"Before you get offended, we are no better."

>>I'm not offended by ignorance.
Well, we never get offended by our reflections, now do we?
"When we put our empire up we were also guilty of such acts. It is a deplorable act of human nature."

>>No. It is indicative of progress. Birth is bloody and painful.
Spoken like a true man. Way to go to embaress yourself and your country

"Maybe the a bomb was being developed by other countries but who was the first to use it?"

>>The people with backbone.
Ah yes, like the backbone the Taliban showed blowing up the twin towers, yes?

"Who is usually the first to steam in, all rash, without thinking."

>>the people that Eurotrash call upon when their socialist wishes are not solving the problem.
Where the bloody hell you been since WWII then? Took your sweet time coming in to loot Europe then too didnt ya?
"When the US has as much history and its own culture for as long perhaps it will start showing a more mature side to these things, but for now........."

>>The US has plenty of history and plenty of culture. Your precious 'mature' side is nothing more than cowardice hiding behind fancy words.
Very true, some hotels and landmarks are fully restore to how they looked over 50 YEARS AGO!! Is that the same cowardice that had us fighting pretty much alone for 90% of WWII by any chance?

Both sides need to show a little more civility or this thread will be shut down.

Fair enuff, I apologise to any I have upset but I got offended at the apparent lack of human compassion.

Sorry.

Agreed. I regret upsetting anyone. It just scares me, attitudes like that. Bodes ill for the future. However, to any I offended. I apologise also. (Offers hand)

Just when the air was beginning to clear..............

If we hadn't nuked the Japanese....they would never have acquired the technology to sell Nissan Pathfinders to American Soccer Moms. If we did them a favor by nuking them perhaps we could find it in our hearts to provide the same favor for other parts of the world. More bang for the buck in the long run, eh?

This is OLD NEWS, really OLD NEWS. Personally, I've considered this to be case for well over a decade.

Anyone who believes this is ignorant of the facts.
The facts are that Japan waged a brutal war in China for years before Pearl Harbor. Then it waged a brutal war against the allies, and allied prisoners, for years after Pearl Harbor.
The Japanese military was refusing to surrender, even after the first atomic bomb was dropped. This made dropping the second bomb necessary.
As for targeting civilians, again blame the Japanese. The Japanese, by and large, did not have centralized manufacturing areas near the end of the war, as Germany did. Manufacturing goods for the war were mixed in with neighborhoods, schools and even hospitals. Their manufacturing had reverted to being a cottage industry, as it had been up to the 19th century.
Finding a large industrial plant as a target was impossible, but Nagasaki and Hiroshima were cities that contributed greatly to the war effort.

On a personal note:
My mother and father fought the Germans in World War II. My father as an American G.I. My mother as a member of the Belgian Resistance, who was twice imprisoned by the Gestapo and whose first husband was executed by the Germans.
After the Germans surrendered, Dad was sent to the Philippines to await the expected invasion of Japan.
Dad spoke with many Philippinos, who told horrible tales of their mistreatment at the hands of the Japanese. And Dad personally witnessed the entire city of Manila in ruins --- dynamited by the Japanese when they left, purely out of spite. Dad was in an engineering outfit, he saw evidence of dynamiting all over the city.
People, you are looking at this from a 21st century, comfortable, "We won the war" view.
Well, in 1945 the allies believed that waging a conventional war against Japan, in invading it, would take at least two years and cost millions of lives --- allied and Japanese. And still, there was no guarantee that the allies would win.
Hindsight is always 20-20.
The atomic bomb stopped the war. Was it used as a warning for the Russians? That was undoubtedly in Truman's thoughts but not his reason for using it.
Japan had ravaged the Pacific since 1937, when it invaded China. It brutalized the Chinese populace for years --- while the rest of the world's diplomats filed endless protests and gave little more than lip service to Japanese brutalities.
Perhaps if the soldiers of the free world had joined together, attacked Japanese forces in China, sided with Spain and defeated Franco's facists and Hitler's Nazis in Spain, then came to the rescue of Poland when it was invaded --- the bomb would not have been needed.
But it was needed.
It's the Devil's Math when you have to decide to sacrifice 100,000 or 200,000 lives to save millions of lives down the road --- but history shows it is sometimes necessary.

So, a couple of American profs claim that the bomb was dropped to start the cold war. And they got to present their findings in London, before members of Greenpeace and others. Hardly sounds like an objective audience. Wonder how much their new book costs? And how much they'll make from it.
Controversy pays, and often quite well.
Oh, I admit my prejudices. My parents told me nearly every day of the atrocities they had witnessed, wrought by the Japanese and Germans. And without the atomic bomb, I probably wouldn't be here. My father would have likely died in the invasion of Japan, along with an estimated 1 million others of all nations.
Dropping the atomic bomb, twice, bothered my father right up to his death at 83 years of age. But he never once said it was unnecessary.
The world was awash in war and destruction, its resources were fed into the war machine without end.
It ended the war. It saved millions.
Would that we could get rid of atomic weapons today, though. Oh, I'd say keep about 20 as a deterrent to those madmen who ponder using one against America or its allies.
We can never truly rid ourselves of atomic weapons. Nor, I believe, should we.

I think it was to end the war.
The Japanese would have held out for at least some concessions, dragging out the end of the war.
The USSR would likely have pushed farther and demanded more concessions, since they were technically allies.
I hate to say it, but I think the bombs had a dual purpose. Swift certain and unconditional surrender of the Japanese, and to get the USSR to stop in their tracks before they decided to take over more of Europe and Asia.