I think aquatus summed it up nicely. You devise a hypothesis of how it could be done, you test if it's viable (can it be done?) then you can deduce what kind of evidence such processes would leave and search for it. Sometimes evidence presents itself and it takes further discoveries to put in context. The point is, viable methods means mundane methods as there is no evidence to support that anything but masterful stone work took place in an ancient city as it has in many other ancient cities. Bear in mind serious continuous digs have only taken place in this area since the 90's. There have been forays prior but nothing to level as is ongoing today. I state this just as comparison to some other sights around the Mediterranean that have been ongoing for most of the last century. Don't forget too, that most of the city was intentionally destroyed by the spanish which does not speed up evaluation. Given time and patience Tiwanaku will give up it's secrets and I'm sure they wondrous but there's no reason to suspect they'll be anomalous.

My friends you can spout off all you want with the company-line from the Liberal world of Archaeology, but no one has actually done the work of testing those holes which are out of context with any concept of creation. they are eight holes wide and are uniformly created in a grid pattern — step forward four feet and get eight more holes uniformly created machine-like and reiterate that over and over and see them march over hill and dale in a uniform style not unlike the holes I once bored with a two drill unit for the Geological Survey back in the sixties. The holes cannot be determined as to how deep they are due to the cave-in of hundreds of years, perhaps thousands.

As to Tiwanaku, the site is about 15,000 years old and was occupied over the years by many other civilizations of lessor talent. The drill work in the stone is highly sophisticated and would require the percision of a powered source of high speed and extremely hard material that did not traditionally belong to the ancient according to modern Archaeology. The area is highly sophisticated and deserves more than we are willing to offer. It remains the silver bulllet.

As a former university administrator and educator, I know the BS that comes from these programs that say it is highly recent but it is just company-line. In truth, we have been had. The Ancients were highly advanced and were not necessarily alien. They were us.

Liberal?



How can you say they are out of concept in the same sentence in which you say no one has looked into them? If no one has researched the holes, why would anyone assume they are mystical, supernatural, or extraterrestrial (in short, anything other than mundane)?



Silver bullets are for people who believe in legends and myths. No matter how much people like to claim that the various stoneworks throughout the world could not possibly have been created by the ancients because ti was too hard, the simple fact (and yes, it is a fact) remains that this 'impossible to work' stone can be worked with the tools available, and on more than one occassion (such as in Egypt), evidence showing how the stone was worked, has been found. There is no reason to believe this site will be any different.

The stone is not particular hard. Jean-Peirre Protzen has found stone hammers on site and tested them to fit blocks quite nicely. No laser beams needed. As far as transport not only is there the lake itself (which has huge quarried stones in it) but quite a few extremely polished cobbled roadways that show every indication of heavy stones being dragged across them. The cobbles function almost like ball bearings by limiting the weight to smaller points. David Canal pulled a fifteen ton block up an eight degree incline with the help of a village (250 men women and children) on Nova. Once it started moving it traveled quite easily. No advanced technology, just brains and brawn.

Indeed, I have lifted a two ton pickup also by myself, but it is the condition of the site. Too many here were born yesterday and non are very ancient in mentality. I will wait for those who can see the reality and let the others continue with what is in reality impossible.

Wich is somewhat my point. People think differently. When it comes down to underwear in my backyard, I'd think it was nothing supernatural. But when it comes to something more, I keep my mind open, and I'd never argue with someone and tell them "this is how it's happened" just because I've found a possability. Skeptics like to shove that down people's throats, and if we disagree "you're wrong, it didn't happen like that". And they don't even know how it happened!

the tihuanaco site has been dated using the established carbon dating method. Archeologists dug beneath the stone monuments and found signs of earlier settlement. It was from these remains that they dated the construction of tihuanaco to 400bc. And herein lies the rub: an amazingly sophisticated society suddenly appeared in the region and on top of existing stone age settlements built a marvel from unimaginably large perfectly cut stone and around it they developed the world's most advanced agri-society using techniques that we have only just rediscovered and still do not fully understand.
You have to be kidding.

There's nothing sudden about it. I don't understand why you would suppose it was. The construction took place in a period of over a thousand years. To be sudden every structure there would have had to spring up in an instant and that is simply not the case. The site shows the expected variation in age, technique an architecture exactly as one would expect and has been observed at other ancient sites. Most ancient cities have evidence of the cities or settlements they were built upon. Every settlement starts as a simpler settlement, obvious I know, but this is the case here as well.

The point is, however, that regardless of whether we are talking about underwear in the backyard or of 40 ton Sun gates in the Peruvian mountains, the first ideas to merit attention are the ones that could have occured with the resources available, as opposed to resources that not only were unlikely to exist there, but haven't even been shown to have existed anywhere (such as aliens).

Never forget, that no matter how sure you are, there are things that some truths are the least likley explainations. And at those times, scientists are probably wrong, because I've rarley seen them even consider unlikley explainations.

This is how I look at things. Even though we're 98% sure about something, there's still a 2% chance we're wrong. And who's to say that 2% isn't where the truth lies? And if someone disagrees with mainstream science's opinion, there's no reason to tell them they're wrong if you're not 100% correct yourself. If everyone was to agree with mainstream science 100% of the time, we'd all stop thinking for ourselves. Different opinions are wonderful.

Mainstream science isn't some great cabal where a bunch of guys sit around long black tables and decide protocol. Within mainstream science there is endless fascinating opinions and ongoing debates. All scientists are free thinkers, thinking well outside the box (I mean, have read any current paleontology or new quantum theories?), the difference is they know that their ideas must stand up to scrutiny and eventual testing and proof so they are not going to come up theories that are not presented to them through study of evidence. Looking for unlikely explanations? What sense does that make? Why would one do that when completely likely explanations present themselves. That's just making stuff up, not research, that's Hancock territory. Despite what you think, no archeologist has jumped on the Atlantis/super civilization bandwagon not because they're stuffed shirts or afraid of anything (because there would be nothing they would be afraid of contrary to what a few people keep repeating) but simply because they have never found any compelling evidence to support such an idea. They seek mundane causes because they see mundane results (as beautiful and accomplished as they may be). Unlike the Cayces' and the Hancocks' they seek actual truth, not book sales. We all live in a world that scientific method has made for us. We're communicating right now through a medium created by people thinking outside of the box. The most poignant and potentially influential conversations concerning our past and our future are going on right now in the many fields of science. Science is a constant conversation, a constant evolution of ideas and thought, the furthest thing from a stagnant paradigm, as Orion would like to suppose, that could be. I'd suggest, (because I think you would enjoy it and maybe be a little surprised) checking out the science mags at your local bookstore (Scientific American, Nature, Science) to give you an idea of the constant exchange of ideas and the constant flow of new ideas. I'd say make your leaps based on logic don't make leaps of logic.

Well said, Capeo.

I read up to this point [I'll read the rest later]




I thought I only said consider them as a possability, and don't tell someone they're wrong because they beleive the least likley explaination. Why'd you go off rambling about something I didn't even say?


If there are more than one explaination for something. The one with more evidence is only the one that simply seems more obvious. Things are not always what they seem. Keep the mind open...


Good journey.

In the same way you get annoyed when you think someone is referring to believers as weak or needy, skeptics get annoyed when they think you are saying scientists refuse to consider all possibilities.

Hello Orion,

I had this question, maybe you'll remember : in an earlier post you talked about 'giant pyramids' in the Amazonian jungle. Can you give a link to a site with pics? Up to now I've only read about them in a book about Colonel Fawcett and in a book of Karl Brugger (Chronicle of Akakor - a hoax, btw).


Abe.

BTW: I will keep repeating this question to you untill you answer it.

You know, I can be quit annoying. But hey, you are too.

I think I rambled about precisely what you said. Following your thinking I could say the sun is made of oranges, that's why it's the color it is. That's no explanation, but is one of a billion I could come up with. Obviously it's not, but some things are obvious for a reason.

It's funny how I saw this thread one day after the Pisco day in Peru :-p

aaaaannnnndddd???

Ahh, the beauty of Pisco is that, given enough time, nothing is mysterious anymore! The world becomes one, wonderful, unified place.

No, I ment that the real evidence makes it more obvious than the other. Anyone would agree on that, that's why we consider the best explaination [the one with the most evidence]. I'm just saying that if someone beleives it's the least likley explaination, don't scoff at them.

I wouldn't scoff at you, my friend. We're just talking. I guess all I'm saying is that as far as I can see, an explanation that lacks evidence is really no explanation at all, it's fiction.

LOL that's soo true! Maybe it was created by the gods as a gift to humanity.

Sad. Are there any graduates here in engineering who would know from experience how the US Geological Survey tests for substances from below??? To many kids just come here to court or hold court.

Depends on what you are looking for. There really isn't any generic test that can determine a wide range of underground things. You have to have a good idea of what you are trying to detect.

I'm no geophysicist or geologist (which is really what you'd want) but there are lots of ways to look underground, passive acoustic, seismic, and electromagnetic ground sensing are all ways but it matters what you're looking for (i.e., vacancies, shifts in densities, water, oil, etc.).

Who knows what they were looking for...the fact is that there are perhaps 50,000 or more grid-like holes eight across marching over the hills of that area and we just do not care.

You throw facts around lightly, my friend. I've looked into this a bit now. There a few thousand holes not 50,000. There just outside the site of Cajamarquilla a pre-inca city which itself is being encroached upon by Lima and they're no big secret. Cajamarquilla has quite a few of these holes within the city limits as seen here

http://www.teckcominco.com/articles/operat.../caj-llanos.pdf

where in the bottom right hand corner they abut the city. Also here are more holes inside the city and you'll also find the holes are quite common in Peru for both granaries and huacas. See the Ventanillas de Otuzco or other such necropolis such as the Paracas Necropolis.

http://cdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.ph...SOPTR=124&REC=3

There not being studied because they hold no archeological value in the form of artifacts. Cajamarquilla is subject to yearly flooding (sometimes very badly as just a couple years ago) but suffers a dry season as well thus putting granaries on an embankment would make sense to keep them above the water table. Nobody's saying for sure why they were dug that's just a theory. The point is they're construction is not astonishing compared to concurrent construction at the time. Why they did it we may never know but the fact that they did is no anomaly.

Strange circles have been spotted in the Modoc National Forest in Northern California.

American Sites: Circles and Irrigation features

Alright alright, here is my 2 centavos. I worked for western geophysical for a while where we would drill down 3,000' put some dynomite in and say fire in the hole. The sizmographic crew would then take readings of the vibrations which in turn gave them a picture of the type of strata underneath. So hypothetically if an advanced culture (say before the flood)had a sonic tool to do this instead of drilling and banging. Yes this actually sounds feasable. Good post O.

Capeo...or whatever, you have not read this post and you are in the wrong spot...which is easy in that part of the world. Get an old National Geographic and see the mail run back in the 1930s...it was a shot taken from the air.

Even von Daniken's work begins to take on a realness when one finds an old National Geographic from 1933 corroborating the "Band of Holes," that he personally inspected a few years ago. Each hole is a meter wide and just as deep. There are eight holes spanning 24 meters in width, marching in repetitive uniform fashion, from the Pisco Valley rolling over numerous miles of hills and mountains -- finally disappearing in the misty mass of Peru. These holes remind this old West Texas boy of the traces left by a massive drilling rig moving along methodically, testing the geology of the Andes for precious metals. Lasers have also left such tracings in the ground. Archaeologists say they represented defensive positions or graves for the ancient ones, except why would you bury anyone on a slope in rocky soil at more than a 45-degree angle?

But my friends, there are tons of anomalies in the mysterious lands of South America -- Colombian models of delta winged forms, giant pyramids in the Amazon Basin, built on mountain slopes covered by inaccessible jungles and others are examples. Are these mysteries part of why Teddy Roosevelt was so introspective upon his return from the Amazonian adventure which eventually caused his death? This is an area where satellites from space represent the best vehicles for discovery of the great structures or patterns on the ground. The Amazon hides "tall, robust" civilizations of the past, which have been radio-carbon dated just recently to over 8,000 years old, and it seems we have not even scratched the edges of this area's massive hidden potential for learning the true "why" of its humanity.

In Bolivia, the archaic site of Tiwanaku on the shores of Lake Titicaca, represents one of the greatest question marks for all mankind. Here are the remains of a city with one of the most sophisticated sewer systems for even modern times. According to archaeologist Alan Kolata from the University of Chicago, he has never seen or heard of a better system. His awe is also taken by the remarkable agricultural system of canals and hydraulic systems that he is even now using to increase potato production for area residents. The raised field system used by the ancients must have occupied 400 to 500 square miles and could easily have fed the 100,000 or more ancient residents living on the arid Altiplano.

They look something like this.

:::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::

They march over the mountains and go for a long distance. While the above example is two across, the real grid is eight across.

maybe someone just got bored and decided to dig some holes, lol jk.

And what is really funny is that even if someone decided to do something so utterly inexplicable as that for no reason whatsoever, it would still be more likely than some unexplained super-advanced civilization doing it and leaving behind nothing other than holes to show for their existance.

There, you said it again, Orion.

Could you give me the URL of the site where they show pics of those 'giant pyarmids'? Or a newspaper article? Anything?

I agree with you there are lots of unexplained architectonial remains in South America, and I have seen several of them with my own eyes (I lived in Peru for half a year). But up to now I have not seen one pic of those 'giant pyramids in the Amzon Basin'. Maybe I must do some thorough Googling?

Something I have seen with my own eyes, something not written about anywhere on the web or in any major newspaper or scientific journal, can be found in the Recoleta monastery in Arequipa (Peru). The jesuits who run that place have created a small museum crammed with artifacts they received from converted 'heathens', together with stuff they dug up or found themselves. One of their most amazing finds they are showing there (well, back in 1991/1992) is a fossilized skull of a primitive human. The skull looks definatively primitive because of the large protruding eyebrows. In a xeroxed newspaper article (from some local newspaper) it says that the estimated age of the skull is about 100,000 years! If that is true - and I say IF - then that would certainly have some major implications for human prehistory and evolution.

During my stay in Peru I also met Javier Cabrera Darquea in Ica. Maybe you'll remember him by the famous stones of Ica? The ones engraved with pics of people playing with animals resembling small dinosaurs and people looking through things that very much resemble telescopes? Well, I visited his museum and had a little chat with this guy. And when I left I bought his book, "The Message of the Engraved Stones of Ica" in which he claims to have found proof of a high civilization in South America.

But I have to tell you that I also met a local artisan, a guy creating fake inca pottery, who said he was convinced Cabrera was a fraud.

And for people interested in cryptozoology Peru is a challenge. I spoke with some natives (Jivaro indians) in Iquitos (NE Peru) and heard from them some weird stories about the things they experienced when hunting tapir (huge snakes and giant black cats for instance)

--

You know, Orion, I only teased you a bit to coerce you into posting pics of or articles about those Amazonian pyramids. I myself have only found a couple of mentionings of those pyramids while surfing the web, but no references to articles and no pics.


Abe.

Here are some sites that mention pyramids in the Amazonian jungle:

http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/139_glozel.shtml

"(...) Recent discoveries of significant pyramids in Brazil – bigger and older than the Egyptian examples – also seem to suggest that an advanced culture spread north to escape from the encroaching Antarctic ice."


http://www.crystalinks.com/pyramidbrazil.html

"Allegedly, in the Jungles of Brazil close to the Peruvian Andes Mountains lay twelve Pyramids in two rows of six side by side. The site has been viewed on a satellite imaging map done by x-raying the jungle with infared photography. Apparently lowering people on ropes from helicopters with chains saws the jungle resisted all attempts to get through the dense forest. "



http://forums.raven-games.com/printthread....11029&perpage=9

"N.A.S.A. has recently confirmed twelve previously un-discovered Pyramids in Brazil, covered by vegetation so thick that they cannot be accessed by roads."



From: http://www.themystica.com/mystica/writings...ry_clouded.html (the site you probably used for your post above, or it is your own site you're quoting from because your username is rather similar to the name of the writer of that text....):

"But my friends, there are tons of anomalies in the mysterious lands of South America -- Colombian models of delta winged forms, giant pyramids in the Amazon Basin, built on mountain slopes covered by inaccessible jungles and others are examples. Are these mysteries part of why Teddy Roosevelt was so introspective upon his return from the Amazonian adventure which eventually caused his death? This is an area where satellites from space represent the best vehicles for discovery of the great structures or patterns on the ground. The Amazon hides "tall, robust" civilizations of the past, which have been radio-carbon dated just recently to over 8,000 years old, and it seems we have not even scratched the edges of this area's massive hidden potential for learning the true "why" of its humanity."
(By Ron O. Cook)

From: http://freespirits.chosenones.net/showthread.php?t=1497
"(...) i copied this part down because of space technology they have discovered 13 pyramids in the AMAZON jungle.. photo proof exsists,, i have posted about this before,, it is going to be a major breakthrough " (by Rene)

There ARE pyramids in Peru:
http://www.anthroarcheart.org/moche.htm

but they're not what we're looking for....



And here is a nice oversight of megalithic structures around the world. Never mind the theory that accompanies the list, just take a look at the list:
http://www.world-mysteries.com/aa_3.htm

Here a nice site about the Nazca lines and several theories trying to explain them:
http://www.crystalinks.com/nasca.html

is that a childish poke at my screen name? Oh, O, I have read the post and I'm correct. The holes are actually in the Rimac valley not the Pisco valley by the way. Is that Daniken's geography? You may be mixing it up with Tiwanaku, or maybe Daniken was trying to connect two of his locales of wondrous alien spawned civilizations. Wait, he wouldn't be disingenuous, would he? Perhaps just inaccurate. Look up Cajamarquilla for yourself and you'll see.

Did you look up the issue of the National Geographic set above as the source...darn, I keep moving the copies to various files and never can find what I am looking for in this darn office. I will post it again as soon as I dig myself out of this world of stuff.

Finally, a picture of the holes I have been talking about...

I know what they are.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Cajamarquilla.html

Yes, those are precisely what I was speaking about. I've already seen that pic. So?

Most of this thread is the biggest pile of miscreditation I've ever seen.

Orion, I respect your ideas and opinions, and to a certain degree I share them myself.

Just wanted to show some support. Keep at it.

I know whereof you speak. The world is full of this type of thinking and any straight forward presentation is leveraged via informal fallacy right off the frontpage. Their methodology is co-opt.

Oh, boy

Deep within the psyche of all humans lives a desire for recognition of one's existence and prowess. In order to fulfill this desire within mankind, one finds the first step to position for recognition. That step is the act of leveraging all physical aspects for power and control in every event sequence that we participate with in life. The step is one of moving thought that manifests into an act designed for power over the Other. The Me (you) views all outside or external entities or material objects as the Other. Put simply -- there is Me (you) and there is the Other. To the Me, all outside persons, things, whatever -- are the Other. The Me competes with the Other for power and control within the realm of Lawful-existence or what some call the Essence (Laws of Physics or Nature).

The Essence is also considered the Universe. It is where the Me and the Other reside in a quantum existence full of laws and forces that leverage us by its own making. Some call this realm God. No matter how you term this inexplicable being or state of existence, you are here taking part in a drama that no one person can explain. You, the Me, really do not know if the Other really exists, but if it does not exist, do you exist? Without the Other, would you have the data to communicate back to you in feedback, that you exist?

The Void is the Ultimate unknowable it may be non-existence. You will never know the meaning of the Void as the Me. The self-oriented being or person can not know the Void, for it is deep, dark and undetectable. Selfish persons who desire recognition are really looking for reinforcement that they exist. Selfishness causes non-learning and pushes us closer to the edge of the Void. Without attention from the Other, we have no worldly data to feedback on the reality of our existence. The only way we can ever learn our way in the universe is to become unselfish and reach out to the Other to learn from all of them. To join the Other is to become unselfish. This is what some call Love. To Love the Other as we Love the Me is to gain knowledge on the Essence and the Void. The more we share knowledge with the Other, the more we see of life. An unselfish person soon learns that he is the Other.

Leveraging for Power in life means that the Me will use Violence, Wealth, Religion, Knowledge, Beauty, or Love to gain control over the Other, or seek recognition from the Other. There is really only one selfless means of communicating with the Other. It is Love. All other means are elements that invoke the ancient law of consequence. The law of consequence is also known as the law of cause and effect...what goes around, comes around. Because the law of consequence is leveraged into existence by selfish acts by the Me for his/her own gain (in effect saying that the Other does not exist therefore negating the Me's own existence).

Look into the eye of the Other and you will see the mirror of the self. No person exists beyond the data of his/her own senses. Without the feedback of the other's activities, there would be no data to see, hear, taste, smell, touch or examine with the brain or the sixth sense. The seventh sense is intuition which few beings develop unless they are unselfish and understand the power of the law of consequences. In your mind dances all the data of the Other. Without the knowledge gained of the outside world, you would be nothing. You are what you learn. You are an accumulation of all your life experiences. Your are the Other replicated by leveraged experiences reinforced over and over again. Wisdom is gained when you learn to Love the Other and Life becomes a Passion for harmony and continued becoming.

Do you understand?

Do you not have aything better to do?


Funny - I completely understand it.

Indeed.
-------------
Taustin there is no need to post 3 times in a row, use the edit button if you were the last to post, and you would like to add more.
thank you
-UA

That is a fairlt relative assumption IMHO.

Influential yes, most poignant maybe, it really is all relative though isn't it.

I would like to think so.

Maybe I missed that part.....

There is certainly alot going on I must agree and we are getting better. You certainly would not know though based on many of the posts seen on this string.

Logic is relative to each of us.....

I'm sorry - who are you and why am I not allowed to post separately to each person and how do I KNOW if someone else has posted? I think that may require more monitoring of others actions than I desire. Also, as I read through each one I have different information. So on page 6 I may have a comment and then also on page 10. I should be checking to see if anyone posted anything before eahc time I post? Please explain the exact process you are preferring I go by and refer me to a section with instruction on this please.

Obviously someone I can not communicate with?......I guess I am speaking to My Self.....I missed the etiquette and misunderstand/fail to see the posting problem, besides the fact that I can not reply but to myself.....and I thought that was alright to do anyway? I feel scolded.....how about want rather than need? Is this not allowed? I thought I was able to post as many times as I want to as many people as I would like, in no particular order or for any particular reason other than to communicate in this forum. I feel un - liberated briefly. Hmm....food for thought.

I guess this thread is done.

That is a pretty neat picture. Although I can't say that the archeological community is actively avoiding it due to some fear of it presenting some sort of monumental discovery, it does make for some tempting speculation as to why it was built. It might have been a beacon to the aliens, it might have been the product of an obsessive mind trying to capture the heart of an imaginary lover. Unfortunately, I have to let it go, quite likely for the same reason the archeological community can't pursue it further; there simply isn't enough information to go on.