For one who once made holes just like it for the US Geological Survey, I cannot let it go. They are ancient and they were used to determine the "below ground" data. It gave them a picture of what goodies were down there for mining. Today, one of the world's largest Zink mine operation is moving in that direction at that very location. Soon the holes will be gone and no one will ever know just how advanced the beings were who made those holes. The drilling rig must have been pneumatic and was seven or eight units across about a meter from each other. Like the two unit device I once saw in use, it left a hole about one meter deep due to cave-in. The data extracted via the drills gave us readings on minerals and voids for future mining. I believe those holes are extremely ancient since the topology of the land seemed to have changed. Also, if the ancients knew a comet was about to impact the Earth and they wanted to have some determination as to how it would change the surface, they could return to a known pattern and see the exaggeration of each hole and be able to determine the magnitude of the impact. The catastrophe might have been so devastating that they were never able to return to the site in that technological era. Of course someone made the lines at Nazca and for one who was a surveyor, I know that no ancient savage could shoot a line so straight for eight miles without a laser...and behind that laser was a platform with a computer controlling its shot. They are messages from the past and we are so dense as not to see them for what they are.

Wait, two pages ago you were asking if anyone knew how professionals carried out below ground detection, and now you are claiming that you made holes for the US Geological Survey?



Why couldn't it have been the same hammer and chisels that these people used to make all their other stonework?



As someone who was once a surveyor, I'm a little surprised to hear you say this. I shot a two mile lie using a stick with two uprights, and the only reason I didn't make a longer one was because we didn't need one. Certainly, a laser makes it easier and faster, but it is hardly impossible to shoot a line without one. Heck, the intercontinental railroad went perfectly straight for miles at a time, and I guarantee you they were not using lasers when they set it down.

Why you must be the smartest person on Earth. May we all worship you?

One may be something and still ask questions of someone who has the same expertise.

A good listener is one who follows the discussion rather than tries to destroy and co-opt it. I this because you are Liberal? There is some new research on why liberals tend to be distortionists. They are far from an open mentality...they seek to create their own line of thought via the white blood cells produced over the red blood cells needed to feed the brain. If this is the case for you, I must tell you to get it checked out.

Cheers,

Boy, O, you just can take it when someone insightfuly and politely turns your wacky arguments on their heads, huh? I'd venture to say it is you who is best at disrupting an otherwise well executed discussion. No need to act like a jerk when someone shows obvious discrepancy in your post. Try providing evidence in a respectful manner rather than haughty anecdote.

You may if you like, but it would defeat the purpose. An intelligent argument is not designed for the purpose of being believable, but rather for being verifiable. To take mine, or anyone else's, words on faith would reduce a person's analytical ability's to nothing more than that of a loyal dog, who is quite happy to go along with anything their master tells them, even if they don't understand most of it.



Which is why I am so surprised that you, as a surveyor, would make such a comment as that of needing advanced electronic equipment. I can't think of any surveyor which I know personally who would make such a claim, considering how relatively simple a task it is to do. Incidentally, to avoid misleading anyone, I am not a surveyor, but was merely an assistant to one as a summer job. It took me all of about two hours to be taught how to shoot a line with proper equipment, and I shot the two mile line with my improvise staff after only a month. It just isn't that difficult to make a straight, with or without a laser.



I'm sorry, but was I off-topic at any point? We are, after all, discussing the holes in the Pisco valley and their origin. You proposed that they must have been made with advanced drilling technologies, and I asked why they couldn't have been made in the same way their other stonework was made. You responded with this:



Perhaps you can tell me how this response of yours follows the discussion, as opposed to trying to destroy it? My post invites other's opinions on the matter. Your's seems to demand silence at the threat of verbal humiliation.

Deep within the psyche of all humans lives a desire for recognition of one's existence and prowess. In order to fulfill this desire within mankind, one finds the first step to position for recognition. That step is the act of leveraging all physical aspects for power and control in every event sequence that we participate with in life. The step is one of moving thought that manifests into an act designed for power over the Other. The Me (you) views all outside or external entities or material objects as the Other. Put simply -- there is Me (you) and there is the Other. To the Me, all outside persons, things, whatever -- are the Other. The Me competes with the Other for power and control within the realm of Lawful-existence or what some call the Essence (Laws of Physics or Nature).

The Essence is also considered the Universe. It is where the Me and the Other reside in a quantum existence full of laws and forces that leverage us by its own making. Some call this realm God. No matter how you term this inexplicable being or state of existence, you are here taking part in a drama that no one person can explain. You, the Me, really do not know if the Other really exists, but if it does not exist, do you exist? Without the Other, would you have the data to communicate back to you in feedback, that you exist?

The Void is the Ultimate unknowable it may be non-existence. You will never know the meaning of the Void as the Me. The self-oriented being or person can not know the Void, for it is deep, dark and undetectable. Selfish persons who desire recognition are really looking for reinforcement that they exist. Selfishness causes non-learning and pushes us closer to the edge of the Void. Without attention from the Other, we have no worldly data to feedback on the reality of our existence. The only way we can ever learn our way in the universe is to become unselfish and reach out to the Other to learn from all of them. To join the Other is to become unselfish. This is what some call Love. To Love the Other as we Love the Me is to gain knowledge on the Essence and the Void. The more we share knowledge with the Other, the more we see of life. An unselfish person soon learns that he is the Other.

Leveraging for Power in life means that the Me will use Violence, Wealth, Religion, Knowledge, Beauty, or Love to gain control over the Other, or seek recognition from the Other. There is really only one selfless means of communicating with the Other. It is Love. All other means are elements that invoke the ancient law of consequence. The law of consequence is also known as the law of cause and effect...what goes around, comes around. Because the law of consequence is leveraged into existence by selfish acts by the Me for his/her own gain (in effect saying that the Other does not exist therefore negating the Me's own existence).

Look into the eye of the Other and you will see the mirror of the self. No person exists beyond the data of his/her own senses. Without the feedback of the other's activities, there would be no data to see, hear, taste, smell, touch or examine with the brain or the sixth sense. The seventh sense is intuition which few beings develop unless they are unselfish and understand the power of the law of consequences. In your mind dances all the data of the Other. Without the knowledge gained of the outside world, you would be nothing. You are what you learn. You are an accumulation of all your life experiences. Your are the Other replicated by leveraged experiences reinforced over and over again. Wisdom is gained when you learn to Love the Other and Life becomes a Passion for harmony and continued becoming.

Perception Dynamics

Our society then, seems to be poised within the tacit-dynamic of living and being, towards a civilization based upon achieving improved wisdom and mental amplification for the masses. (Society is such a mess of lies -- reversing the trend seems to be the only alternative.) This "wishful thinking" described as a trend, requires that the education of what some call a "Super-Generalist," becomes an educational norm. This super-person of encyclopedic scope would require an education far and above anything we currently offer and would constitute a mindset far-and-away from those who currently collude for self-enhancement (illusionists).

Many researchers suggest that America's educational establishment must address old collusions and illusions by ridding our society of the disease called the "Naiveté Syndrome". This malady is the sufferance of allowing hype, policy, propaganda, and the positioning of assumptions towards the influence of undeveloped perceptions of persons who are educationally disadvantaged or have been duped by misinformation. This naiveté-syndrome is of course the total problem of why man has found himself locked in mediocrity since the beginning of recorded time. Cultural-polarization utilizing the naiveté-syndrome has long been a leveraging tool of the elite (opinion leaders) to manipulate the naive (read uneducated) and its usage must now become known to the general public through our public educational curriculums.

Our society is plagued by this lack of perception, thus it is shielded from the truth by incomplete educational communications in the total...if, indeed, some kind of total-education is what we, the great masses, deserve. A small litmus test for determining the directions of our society toward more realistic (truthful) directions can be suggested by comparing perceptive qualities of individuals and groups within a quantitative list of four visions or means of viewing life. The four visions comprise what I call "Perception Dynamics"...how we see the world around us. Perception Dynamics is/are an adaptation of a system originally set up by Dr. Reid Hastie (University of Minnesota) and Christian Schmidt (Designer). Their ideas became my adaptation and research after I read one of their books.

VIRTUAL VISIONARIES - Persons who have a general
day-to-day view of life, a work-
just-enough-to-get-us-through mentality.
Perception level of the general population. A
highly naive ego-grouping. 80 to 85% of the
population.

ECCENTRIC VISIONARIES - An expanded analysis of life's details within a specific category...single mindfulness. These curious people have difficulty relating their knowledge to the whole. This is the perception level of specialists, lower or mid-management, and
some scientists and educators. 9-12%.

INVENTIVE VISIONARIES - A view that
allows manipulation of imaginative/creative
concepts toward a new or different realty.
Perception level of artists, designers, writers,
entrepreneurs and others. 2-5%.

OMNI-VISIONARIES - A long-range view, universal (panoramic) or a gestalt viewof humanity; penetrating and animated
insight into the "Great Why" or reason. The
domain of the "Brain Trust", seeker of truth.
Perception level of philosophers, super-
generalists, spiritualists, scientists,
educators...masters such as Plato, Hermes
and others. Seekers of the continuum. 0.5 to 1% of the population.

Of course, many of us exhibit a mixture of the above qualities; nevertheless, because of the great changes and pressures ahead of our society, we as educators must develop methods of helping to expand on thoughtful, relevant and perceptive exchange that addresses the spectrum of human consciousness...total communications via dialogue techniques.

As a teacher in America's public educational system, I see students every day that exhibit the characteristics of all four of the categories of Perception Dynamics. Of course there are very few that show the visual strengths of an Omni Visionary, but there have been at least three out of perhaps 200 that showed the dedication necessary to be initiated into the realm of bonafide seekers. Because my classes are based upon high perceptive cognition and creativity, I do have the lion's share of Inventive Visionaries, which makes teaching a little less a task and more of a joy. The big problem, indeed the international problem, is the moving up of the other 90%. That is what this work is all about...our becoming.

Because my courses are about the Information-Float and the cybersphere; I utilize perception dynamics as part of my overall course offering on human psychology in the existence paradigm. I call the sessions, The Human Leveraging Paradigm. Actually this book is really about the HLP and future chapters will continue to point up the "why" of our need to understand and establish dialogue that will reveal the crux of being to our evolving psyche.

I would bet few read this material.

A bit of Kant, a bit of Hursell and a dash of Jasper's Existenz. So what? Do you think nobody else here has studied philosphy? Somewhere in your study of phenomonology you fell off the track and landed squarely in the realm of ego.

And you said aquatis was derailing this post?

Considering that we are talking about the holes in the Pisco Valley, and how we just asked you to explain why these holes could not have been made with a chisel and hammer, but instead required pneumatic drilling equipment and laser sighters, that would be a good bet.

So, do you intend to say anything about the actual topic, or are you simply going "to destroy and co-opt it"?

Argumentum ad hominem or refutation of the man and what he/she stands for as a character issue in the arena of ideas. This fallacy is usually used to defuse the character of an opponent and position them as less desirable than the attacker. This method is used to poison the well of an opponent with information that is usually fallacious. If he has been wrong in the past, he is sure to be wrong now. Positioning of dirty laundry in the arena of ideas. When attacked by the ad hominem methodology, many come back with the old What about your stance or tu quoquo.

By the by, I was 20 and working my way through college when I did this back in the 1960s.

See again.

For one who once made holes just like it for the US Geological Survey, I cannot let it go. They are ancient and they were used to determine the "below ground" data. It gave them a picture of what goodies were down there for mining. Today, one of the world's largest Zink mine operation is moving in that direction at that very location. Soon the holes will be gone and no one will ever know just how advanced the beings were who made those holes. The drilling rig must have been pneumatic and was seven or eight units across about a meter from each other. Like the two unit device I once saw in use, it left a hole about one meter deep due to cave-in. The data extracted via the drills gave us readings on minerals and voids for future mining. I believe those holes are extremely ancient since the topology of the land seemed to have changed. Also, if the ancients knew a comet was about to impact the Earth and they wanted to have some determination as to how it would change the surface, they could return to a known pattern and see the exaggeration of each hole and be able to determine the magnitude of the impact. The catastrophe might have been so devastating that they were never able to return to the site in that technological era. Of course someone made the lines at Nazca and for one who was a surveyor, I know that no ancient savage could shoot a line so straight for eight miles without a laser...and behind that laser was a platform with a computer controlling its shot. They are messages from the past and we are so dense as not to see them for what they are.

The romans shot lines over hill and valley for 50 miles using a cross-shaped plumb line. Straight lines are ridiculously easy to make and piece of twine, a stone, and a couple sticks. What factual evidence leads you to the assumption that something more than these well-known and simple methods that were available weren't used in lieu of some high technology of which there is no archeological evidence of?

The Nazca drawings have been replicated twice now by two independent scholars using sticks and twine and employing a grid system the Nazca employed in their impressive mastery of weaving. The sticks they used to layout the designs have been found on site as well as evidence of smaller images next to the larger to scale off of somewhat like a panagraph. A couple other scholars believe they used a different system of scaling than gridding but equally prosaic and neither imply the use of any high technology. Finally, the Nazca were far ancient savages and its rather repugnant of you to suggest so.

Oh, also, the topology of the land couldn't have changed drastically or the holes wouldn't be there. Again, please provide evidence of the claims, as in the geology of the area for the last 10,000 years as i'm sure it's had no upheaval in that time (or for a million years before that for that matter). I'll find you the Nazca studies in a sec and post them.

An astronomer and a group from Earthwatch made a straight line with sticks and string the ended it in a spiral with the same simple tools:

http://www.astronomy.pomona.edu/archeo/andes/nazca.main.html

Joe Nickell recreates a scale representation:

http://www.onagocag.com/nazca.html

And see I almost got sidetracked. The holes, what evidence is there to support the need for high technology to create them rather than normal stoneworking techniques used in making granaries and post holes?

My stance is that you claimed the holes in the ground where made by advanced drilling and mining equipment and instead of answering why it could not have been done with the same techniques that the locals used in their other constructions, you launched into the same post you posted in the previous page, and in another thread where you accused me of leveraging from ignorance.

Orion, You are the only one here engaging in ad hominen attacks. Do you wish for me to do so as well? I would be happy to. Do I think you are a credible source of knowledge? No, I do not, because you claim in one instance to be a retired teacher and therefore are under no obligation to explain what you say, and then in another instance you claim that you have students that display the properties you speak of. You ask basic questions about geology and then claim to work for the U.S. Geologic Survey. You claim to be a surveyor, yet claim it is imposible to shoot a straight line without a computer assisted laser.

Those are ad hominem attacks. Those are attacks aimed at a person rather than their arguments. Are such things always invalid? Not at all. An ad hominem attack is only invalid if it bases its entire point on subjects that do not have anything to do with the topic at hand. If I were to say "Orion failed math class", that would be an invalid attack, because I am attempting to cast doubt on your credibility in a subject that has nothing to do with the topic. If, on the other hand, you base your claim on your authorization as a professional, for instance, as a surveyor claiming that one cannot shoot a line without a laser, then anyone would be fully justified to present evidence to the contrary and use this against you precisely because you presented yourself as an integral part of the argument. In other words, you cannot use yourself as a source, and then whine about getting attacked when someone counters your claim. If you are at the core of the argument, then an ad hominem attack (as long as it pertains to the topic), is valid.

So, ad hominem aside, let's assume for the sake of this arguement that you are without a flaw in your credibility: Can you please explain why these holes would have to be made using modern drilling equipment as opposed to the same tools the locals used for everything else they made?

Tight!

Methods of Leveraging the Human Mind for Political Power and Control

Primary source: The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.

Informal fallacy is an error of reasoning or a method of hoodwinking an unknowing audience or group. It is often a method of verbal acrobatics to persuade audiences that through reasoning and argument an issue can be correct, when upon evaluation it is not correct but a lie. This is a means of hyping an issue and spinning it as a truth. Still, it is a lie.

Genetic fallacy is a means of persuading individuals upon the goodness or badness of an issue by using something unrelated but similar by showing the goodness or badness of the issue. A genetic fallacy is often used with a personal attack and serves to reinforce a lie. It will be used to condemn a prior thesis by condemning the base source as the point where an issue goes wrong. The base source may not have any relationship to the end product.

Argumentum ad populum or argument to the crowd or people is a prime example of the statement that everybody is doing it. It is also a statement that is the appeal to the gallery for support of its contention. Some say this is not unlike the mob appeal. What goes wrong with this argument is when exaggeration of the crowd is hyped beyond its real scope. Mass enthusiasm via cheerleading can be a lie when evidence shows the impetus was created by coercion rather than genuine appeal. Many call this the bandwagon effect.

Argumentum ad misericordiam is a methodology used with heaps of pity and emotional blackmail for an apparent wrong done to persons when in essence the facts do not support a need for such high levels of compassion. Using emotionalism to pressure an audience for a weak case is often called false witness for high benefit. Many times it is in reality a threat of becoming miserable or worse to force an issue. Some will even threaten suicide or in a laughing manner say something is to die for. It is an effort to position others as mean and wrong for creating miserable conditions for the one who is threatening. Others may use this method to point up the plight of a constituency to leverage for a change in political behavior…such as asking for tolerance when it already exists.

Fallacy of construction or composition of issues is a means of arguing from the make up of parts that have no relationship to the whole. But, by virtue of known parts the whole should follow.

Fallacy of division is the opposite of the above. It is arguing from the whole and its image to portraying the whole as the part when the part has no overall relationship to the results of the whole.

The fallacy of false cause also called post hoc, ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this). The wrong in this argument is the weight given the causal condition. The quantification and formula may be coincidence and outside sources might cause the coincidence. At times, a third party is hidden and may be the ultimate source of the cause.

The fallacy of secundum quid or arguing from a general condition to a specific outcome or again it is also known as the fallacy of accidental relationships. It is also know as the argument of hasty generalizations where a specific condition is apparent.

Argumentum consensus gentium or the argument of all nations or sources for a point of agreement. This argument is typically utilized by the scientific community when they are presenting a theory about some topic. It is usually an assumption rather than a proven fact though many scientists support the concept. Everyone believes this statement therefore it must be true. Its best utilization is as a point of departure for a later proven fact.

If one would review this post, I have claimed nothing about these holes. I have stated that they look strange and gave my experiences in finding holes 1/4the the size as these. I did indeed speculate on what I thing the holes mean and invited discussion. I do still claim that no one can shoot a line as straight as those on the Nazca without the technology to do so. Technology that was absent those poor folks who have been given credit for such. The Romans diviated from one foot to four feet doing their fine work within the same number of miles.

Other than that, I have invited discussion. You two went a little further than that. Get you facts right please.

My editing still does not work...it should read think not thing.

This is a waste of time. Keep copying and pasting away, O. I'll be elsewhere seeking an actual debate.

Edit: NOW you respond! Ok strike the above. Did you read my links of people that have already accomplished a similar feat? Smaller scale but the technique works. Poles and rope can accomplish it, especially if you used sighting poles the entire time. The Nazca lines show some deviation, they're not absolutely perfect. I can find stats on that actually and I'll post them. Why, may I ask, do you keep insisting that the Nazca civilization was not highly developed when it obviously was. Their weaving techniques alone were fantastically complex and still admired today. At the same time, you insist they were possessed of high technology. How is this reconciled?

Are you a surveyor? I do not think so. If it is so easy, why are we so silly as to use laser technology to shoot just a few feet? Why don't we use sticks and rocks since it is so percise. Sorry, It does not follow. Non Sequiturs all the way.

Are you a surveyor? I do not think so. If it is so easy, why are we so silly as to use laser technology to shoot just a few feet? Why don't we use sticks and rocks since it is so percise. Sorry, It does not follow. Non Sequiturs all the way.

You can't really expect an answer as to why we today use an available method that is simpler, reliable and more exacting than past methods. That's not a non sequitur. Apply common sense, the answer is in the first sentence.

Speculate?



Okay, allright, you speculated. I asked you, for the sake of discussion, why the rig must have been pneumatic and laser guided. You did not continue the discusion. If you wish to discuss it, let's discuss it: Why could the holes not have been made with hammer and chisel?

For God's sake, please don't post another copy about leveraging, or fallacies, or whatnot. If you can't answer the question and just wish to label it your opinion, just say so and be done with it.

Because they are too consistent and we have never found the tool marks suggesting they were hand made. They look pneumatic. I am wondering why we have not investigated these holes over the past years. There is very little about them and that is why I asked about them to determine more information that might be out there somewhere. Why? Why, have we not looked at this and said what is it? But, tell me, why do you think someone got down in the holes with you method and worked for a long distance doing 7 or 8 holes across for such a distance in those very ancient times? Why?

Good bye all, I have what I need. You all have been wonderful.

Is this more speculation? I haven't found anything about these holes that indicate they don't have the same construction marks as everything else.



My guess is that no one thinks there is anything worth learning about these holes. After all, when all is said and done, unless more evidence turns up, we really have very little to go on. How the heck are you going to convince a grant comittee to further fund your research if there is nothing you can present to them that would indicate you are on the verge of making some discovery?



Honestly? I haven't a clue? People do weird things. Let's assume that they were not grainaries, or graves, or any of the other explanations we have come across here. Well, perhaps they were defensive positions. Perhaps they were the foundational begining of a new complex. Perhaps they were the life long project of a single obsessive compulsive individual, such as Coral Castle in Florida. There are several hundreds of utterly banal explanations, from the impressive to the utterly inexplicable for the existance of these holes, and none of them require venturing into the realm of anachronistic science.

True, but I have seen holes like these in my own reality, and they were utilized for information by the US Geological Survey. Of course, we know they did not have such expertise in those ancient of days. Yes, I am back.

Hey, this thread needs to come alive again. Someone at the Daily Grail wants some information on this topic. How had the Pictures on this?

http://www.dailygrail.com/node/3661

Let dead threads lie. Nothing to be added. Let it fade away.

You never know who may have new information about a dead thread. I have never received a definitive message on this subject.

Just saw the picture. Had never heard of this before. Haven't read all 16 pages on postings. Wanted to say though, when I looked at the picture the first thing I thought of was a single tire track. This of course would not be the rubber spikes I have seen but metal. Wish I had gotten in the conversation earlier. Will go back and read all the posts though.

There is something very strange about these tracks, how they seem to roll over hill and dale with the earth movements of past times distorting the former straight line of the tracks. I think it is a silver bullet in the Space/Time continuum.

1st Orion, I, as are others here, am sick of the smartazz punks that have nothing to add of constructive nature yet are compelled to cruise this site and attempt to be glib and sarcastic. It is an indicator of ignorance that it taxes my nerves.

People have expressed an undercurrent of negativity against von Daniken. If they actually knew anything they would realize that he was simply the catalyst that got the ancient alien/ancient technology concept more public. His books were not the 1st. Most of my volumes are pre-von Daniken. OK so he popularized the ideas that many other pioneered. Not liking him is misplaced aggression and by no means negates the concept.

The whole "thing" about unexplained objects and places is far greater than most people know or wish to acknowledge. It's not simply these strange holes, it's the myriad other things that can't be explained away with sarcasm, smirks and hateful dialogue. You can go to out "ancient astronauts" thread and see what has been kicked around.

nope its merely human beings up to their mischief again.

^Dude, you don't even make any sense.

I agree. It is mostly High School kids who do not know anything. They see attention since their parents only give them stuff instead of attention. I gave my kids a lot of time and they turned out great. And, so are my grandkids. I used to sit down everytime my daughters wanted to know something. We had tons of books and i always studied, but stopped when they wanted attention. As a former university admin. I had to really lose sleep in order to do that. I am glad I did. I try to give the kids attention here but they are mostly bi-polar. It is a pity so many are this way, but it is our way of life. Bless the little children.

The reason threads die is because people have lost interest in them. If the only person posting something in a thread is the person who originally began it, and no one is interested in dicussing it, the topic is pointless. Do not ressurect dead threads without something worthwhile to advance the conversation. "Bumping" a thread for your own interest makes it look like nothing more than Thread Count playing.