Hello UM'ers

I know there are many threads/posts concerning the infamous,"Book of Enoch" and debates over its text and such already going around on this forum. I am not asking for a full description or an in depth debate on this matter.

I am however looking for good novel material, and wondering if such a text contains a potential storyline for which I could use. I have heard it involves the affairs of angels and of the heirachry they have (had?) in heaven and their affairs with mortals and such.

Basically I'm looking for a brief description of what the Book of Enoch contains and possibly what topics it covers. If it looks promising I will further look into this matter and actually get myself a copy of the book to read for myself.

Emphasis on BRIEF here people.

Thank you

you could read the whole thing in 30 minutes
its a book not a novel
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/enoch/
a review from Amazon
"The Book of Enoch was considered one of the most important books in early Christianity and was used widely. R.H. Charles, who translated the book, said, "the influence of I Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than that of all the other aprocryphal and pseudepigraphical books put together." One of the main influences from the book is its explanation of evil coming into the world with the arrival of the "fallen angels." Enoch functions as a scribe, writing up a petition on behalf of these fallen ones, to be given to higher powers for judgment. Enoch was apparently chosen for this duty because he was of a different nature than the angels. It appears that Christianity later adopted some of its ideas and philosophies from this book, including the Final Judgment, the concept of demons, the Resurrection, the origins of evil, and the coming of a Messiah and Messianic Kingdom. This makes The Book of Enoch of immense importance, not only to the study of Christianity's origins, but to the possible reality of strange, otherworldly visions or visitations. If this book was so important to Christian beginnings, why was it removed from the canon and banned? Enoch had found and experienced God face to face, something which gnostics always strive for. The Church opposed gnostics-to them, they were heretics. Only now, after many centuries, are people rediscovering this book's value, along with its important counterpart, The Book of the Secrets of Enoch. Both of these important books are now shedding new light on Christian origins and otherworldly "encounters."
coming to a cinema near you soon

Just a suggestion, but you can draw a lline from the Book of Enoch to Freemasonery.

I know Mardy, my goal is to attempt writing a novel loosely based on it.

How many pages is it exactly? And what is the Secrets of the Book of Enoch?

Well, my initial intent isn't to write a conspiracy/ uncovering secrets typa of novel... more of a look at the affairs of angels... But I'll keep it in mind.

http://www.gotwavs.com/cgi-bin/wavs.cgi?Prophecy=angel.wav
It's been done buddy

http://www.geocities.com/porcelain72/alwaysopen.wav
http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs...hecy=secret.wav



"I have watched this film several times and have enjoyed it every time. Christopher Walken is excellent as Gabriel, as he has a presence on screen that just cannot be beaten. The theological side of the story is much more interesting than angels being fluffy creatures most people believe in, and are closer to the angels described in older scripts and texts. You can enjoy this film without being pulled in by beliefs and religion so don't be frightened of it, enjoy the film and another sterling performance by Walken. "

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114194/

What do you want to know/work with MB, I know just about all there is to know on this subject, hell I carry it on my sig.

For a start, the angels were from the order of Irin Qaddism, 'twin judgement angels' 7 rows of them (twin being plural here, and they were all identical). The are also calld the 'Holy Watchers', and are not just 'judement angels' but are actually what REAL GUADRIAN ANGELS ARE not the commericalized crap you hear of today. When they fell they became known simply as 'the Watchers' or the 'Grigori/eGrigori'. When they came to Earth they took on mortal form and looked different from one another having been bound by oath on Mt Hermon (yes, it is a REAL mountain and means 'a curse' or 'accursed mountain' because of the oath/curse). After the fall a portion of them were handed over, by satanail's request to God (which was granted) to work for satanail as accusing angels etc, I can help with any questions anyway.

Could I ask why you want it? As in what is this novel for?

Don't be so quick to assume Hardy Mardy. I have a very different approach then that movie I believe...

I don't want to put too much info on this out there, but I will tell you it's a graphic novel, not really a novel.. so a comicbook if you will. And I'm not centering around the idea of prophecies, the war between heaven and hell, or any revelations/armegeddon type aspects.

I'm going to do a few more library runs/ google searches of my own, but I guess I'm looking for what events the angels experienced, particularily the Arch-Angel Micheal... Wars, Falls, and Deals between heaven, hell, and earth. Wars with the angels in particular.

Thanks for the info Ashley-Star Child. I should have just seeked you out from the beginning!

The fallen angels fell because they lusted after earthwomen.
Now there's a plot I can relate to!

Well like I said, if you have any questions just ask MB.

DJquinn,

Yes, that's true. The very fact that an angel could fall because of lust seems to have unnerved some people once upon a time, and I'm sure that was one reason it was considered so taboo.

Well, I think it was because the Watchers were immortal and did not need to reproduce.

Yes, they were immortal but when they took the oath to fall they did so to reproduce and marry women, and to do that, they became mortal. Maybe not entirely human, but mortal.

The real and only question that remains then is why. Why would sexless angels feel lust for either sex. One text tries to clear that up by saying that Azael and Shemyhazai asked God to sanctify the Earth and would inhabit it, in which God said they'd be worse than man, and so it began. But, still there's that 'why'?

While it tells that angels married women, it does not condemn this as a sin. Psalm 82 tells that the elohim sinned, but does not tell how (i.e. it does not mention that they married women).

pride

Yes, they were condemned.Three were given full blame as 'scapegoats' (this is further talked of in Lev. about the 'Azazel goat'. Azazel is actually the name used for Azael/A'siel but they may be two separate angels as it's used twice. Azazel, even out of the three - three goes into other texts - got the most blame of all) and bound in the wilderness hand and foot and blinded for 7000 years. The rest of the 200 are in the 5th Heaven turned angel hell where they stay in silence (although Enoch suggsted they start a liturgy which they did, don't know if that helped them any). After that, they are t be released for judement. In all it is said, they were fallen for 9 days (that's 9000 Earth years, 1 Heaven day=1000 Earth years). After this judgement it is said the three bound will 'Heal the Earth they plagued, and bring life back to her (the Earth)' at THE final judgement.

I'll have to admit that I haven't researched the Book of Enoch, but it has some interesting stuff. Have you read Uriel's Machine, and what did you think>

I've heard about it. I agree somewhat, but not entirely.

Okay, MB is lost already!

What is the 1st Fall? (Who fell, When'd they fall, Why'd they fall)

What is the 2nd Fall?

What places/wars have angels killed in the name of god?

Is such a war still said to be going on?

I just watched the Prophecy.. and yes, it does bring up some good points.

cool but that quote "and in those days in heaven there were angels carrying savage weapons" doesn't actually exist
did you like the frigid and impotent all at the same time joke

Ahh good question MB, good question.

The 1st fall was the fall of satanail. Upon being requested to worship Adam, as all other angels did, satanail refused saying 'Why should I, a son of fire, bow down to a son of clay. I was created before him, he should worship me!' and the angels under his command also resfued to worship Adam. He then tried to ascend his throne. So, he, and all the angels under him got kicked out and became fallen. The rest of his minions hang on the 2nd Heaven.

The second fall was the Grigori.

And, since you're all bringing up the Prophecy, may I just add I love that movie (got the trilogy on DVD) though the second is a screwed up take-off of Enoch, and the 3rd doesn't have much storyline. The first is the best. Also quoted in my sig....

lol
Vigo's far better bad than good isn't he.
"i love you more than Jesus does"

Please, go on...

I loved Christopher Walken as Gabe, and also thought it had a pretty good plot to it. The Morgue Guy had some pretty funny one-liners.
Dogma was also a pretty good movie to watch on this subject matter, even though its not as serious.

yo ashely, im also interested in the matter...
if you know please enlighten me on HOW the angels and fallen angels fought,
did they use powers, weapons,... I need to know...thanks

Copycat. Get your own Enoch Guru.

Just joking SoloFront ,.. in fact I want to know what they fought with as well... medieval weapons? lighting? Pikes?

Did they fight in the clouds, or on earth or what?

I always assumed they had a final, decisive game of "Magic: The Gathering", with the losers packing up and movng out.

Or maybe it was "Connect Four".

I believe it was more about who, Would have the power of heaven.

Kerplunk
only kerplunk was designed by satanail

Thank you Marduk for absolutely nothing.

The 'War in Heaven' talked of in Rev. is actually about THAT war. Satanail had power originally (being originally God's favourite and most loved angel higher than all other angels) then to not only be accusing angel of man, but of his ow bretherin - other angels. In one obscure text, a serpent rises and says that HE was responsible for putting lust into the hearts (heart may not be the right word..) or the angels so that they'd be attracted to women.

Satan in another text had appeared as an angel of light to Eve telling her all had been forgiven and to get out of the water (a way of repentance), and so she did. Adam, seeing Eve out of the water and knowing who this angel actually was asked him why he hated them, what had they ever done to him, in whih he said 'It's BECAUSE of you, I am fallen' and was cast out from his bretherin and that he would dog humanity for all eternity because of that. He wasn't just after human blood however, he was after ALL angels still in grace, and with his power to accuse them, he delighted in seeing even his own bretherin fall. It was the angel Michael who gave the oath to Azael and Shemyhazai, upon request from one of the originally fallen angels of satanail. At the end of it, being all but a little fed up with seeing his own kind fall, he cast satan out of his job where it says 'and he accused our brethern (other angels) night and day before the Lord' so that he could no longer accuse angels (this happened in Enoch's time as God tested and judged His own angels then) but humanity alone, where it then says 'Woe to the Earth for the dragon has gone down to you'.

Weapons? Yes, there are weapons, the weapons aren't described in great detail, but they are savage and the angels (not even fallen) carry out their punishments without mercy. That is their job. In respect to the angels who were on Earth, they hid among men to hide from Gabriel, Michael Sariel and Raphael as they came down to fight them, and eventually 'rocks were thrown from Heaven' (i.e. asteroids, Heaen being in space) by the angels which started off the whole 'deluge'. The Cherubim's sword is descibed as fire in the shape of lightning, so that's one example, and thse guys are HUGE.

Alright,.. it sounds like there are multiple translations to this text. I am wondering if this is somewhat like greek mythology in that sense. For example, the hydra is said to have anywhere from 3 to twenty-something heads in all the different versions of Hercules.

I am definately interested in this now though. It sounds like this would make a nice violent video game! I'm going to grab that library card and get cracking...

So long as you aren't planning on turning it into a special effects movie you're safe MB.....otherwise I'll have to hunt you down lol j/k...

Greek Mythology (and I know there'll be opposition to this, but this is my two cents) has a parrallel story which appears to be a take-off of Enoch. Angry Zeus kills of half mortal half 'god' offspring and monsters with a flood. The monsters were more along the line of dinosaurs, in my opinion....and one text talks about the 'bellowing roar of wild beasts' coming after the Nephillim. There were in fact THREE types of Nephillim/giants, but the major separation was in the humanoid Nephillim (directly from angels and mortal women), the 'giants' however sprang from the hybridization of two hundred of every species walking the Earth BY the Nephillim (not the angels themselves, but their children) creating 'great monsters', which by my calculation (using other cubit measurements against the Tower of Babel aka Babylon which is EXACT) made them up to (not all of them were 'giants') 45ft tall who turned the Earth into a bloodbath (think WotW...) eating mammals, reptiles birds, humans, and eventually each other.

The reptillian theme of these mosnters is the most likely as many angels themselves in true form ARE reptillian, the 'flaming serpent' Cherubim, dragons and the like. The Watcher angels though were actually one of the few orders that were human-like, but were of exteremly large proportions.

There are alot of texts which deal with Enoch, Nehillim, Watchers etc. The Dead Sea Scrolls has a version of of 1 Enoch, The Book of Watchers, I even found ANOTHER book in there which deals with them (just bought a copy from Amazon now) and it rightly says the bulk of the book deals with Enoch themes. There's also Jubilees, etc but the DSC are fragmented so I'd only read that as an extra. So, unless you feel like reading a ton of books, it's probably better to just ask lol. There are (and shouldn't be) different versions of Enoch, NOT because the original text differs, but because of the translations. The best I've read so far is from The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha'. Don't let the title scare you off, I'm debating that one currently.

Hey dont forget to thank me...I did absolutely nothing, too.

i will then, thank you whitehorse for absolutely nothing...just kidding

i'd love to be on the sidelines and watch the battle between angels, what a sight that must have been, both here on earth and in the heavens

Hmm, yes, I'm sure it would have been....

Okay, let's start this off at the beginning, I'm still sorta confused.

1. Does it specify what the relationship between god and the angels was like in the beginning?
2A. Are there different types of angels? What is their heirarchy like?
2B. What different varieties of angels are there and where do these different varieties of angels fit into the heirarchy? (reptilian, serpents, giants, ect.)
3. Did angels rebell before there were humans?
4. Who is Grigori and what is his rebellion about?

Thanx

Q1. Yes, they were Holy Watcher angels (i.e. not fallen and in God's grace). Their original job was literally to watch over man night and day (they did not sleep) and actually to teach man and help. This became 'perverted' when they fell and they began to teach man (or, rather, women, their wives) the secrets of Heaven and 'rejected mysteries'.
Q2. There are many different types and heirachies of angels. Thones, Cherubim, Seraphim, Irin Qaddism (watcher angels), archangels, etc. 'Normal' angels (that is their term, jus 'angel') are on the lowest order in the scheme of heirachy.
Q3. Because there are so many, I'll give a few examples, but if you have any in particular in mind then ask. Cherubum have four heads each for the 4 fixed signs of the Zodiac (Bull=Taurus, Lion=Leo, Eagle/Sphinx = Scorpio - Scorpio has three symbols, not one. The lowest and most evil form is the Scorpion, the middle the serpent, and the highest, rising to the greatest good and overcoming all evil is the Eagle/Sphinx/Pheonix. Satanail (or satan) was a Cherubim, the Scorpio side of it) and each has 4 wings, two of which cover their bodies, the other two to fly with. There is also a 'fiery serpent' Cherubim as I said before which guards Eden (the real Eden not being on Earth, but literally in the Heavens, Paradise the 3rd level of Heaven). The 8th level of Heaven I'll add is the Zodiac belt (literally) and the 9th the ouses of the Zodiac (used in astrology). The 10th level is where God is and no mortal man ca enter, some angels can't even eneter, only the highest of rank (Enoch could, but he himself became a high ranking angel before reacing there that is Metatron, same goes for Elijah who became Sandalphon, they themselves are aother 'twin angel' set). The there's Azrael angel of death, huge and covered in eyes, he writes in a book on the birth of every human, and erases when they die. The Irin Qaddism are huge, and very powerful, resembling man, and shining like the light of the sun, all 7 rows of them identical hence the term 'twin judgement angels'. One half of them are for your defence, the other your prosection as 'accusing angels' on your death, etc.
Q3. No. And every single account of a fall of an angel has in some way been in connection to humans. This resulted (in Moses time) in some angels fearing and being disgusted with humanity, almost refusing to come down to even watch them fearing their own place may be in jeopardy. When Moses gave secrets to man given by one angel (that no doubt was a hand down again of the Book of Raziel written by the angels of that name on sapphire stone) another angel asked Moses WHY he had done so saying that man was unworthy 'emitting petrid drops' etc.
Q5. The Grigori is the term given to portion of the Irin Qaddism watchers that fell to marry women and teach them the secrets of Heaven, have Npehillim offspring etc. The majority reside in the 5th level of Heaven.

I can see why some members of the church are so reluctant to accept this text along with the others... some of this sounds like pretty far out stuff to me. Angels with multiple heads and levels of heaven... not what I expected to be honest.

none the less, very interesting, i love this stuff

sooo, according to this 'book of enoch', the angels, archangels, etal are pretty much acting similiar to the characters in a soap opera?

Jealousy, anger, lust, backstabbing, framing innocents, revenge, power grabbing, false accusations...did I miss anything?

So when does Satanails twin brother angel show up? Will Shemyaziel recover from his amnesia? Will Eve confess to Adam that she is carrying another mans son?....

You have to admit Ashley, all this heavenly intrigue does sound remarkably............human, wouldn't you agree?

The book of enoch which influenced much of the bible was in term influenced greatly by the sumerian culture 4 (thousand years before christianity) as has most other religions around the globe....put simply read up on the sumerians, niburu ect and that is the first religion from which the others stem..

What makes you think they are so different from us?

As for the Summerians influencing it, ebrews were around then too, and it's just as likely the Summerians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Mesopotanians, Greeks, etc all took it from them.

Have you read up on the sumerians by any chance?

Are you aware of jus how old this book is, according to historical data and not opinion, by any chance?

Some of you may find this site interesting: http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/enoch.html

i know a little
what can you tell us about them ??
is there something we should know

Here we go, there are just some questions you shouldn't ask.

no seriously
i'd like to hear what the typical man in the street knows about this subject
and where he gets his info.
i'ts not a trap

Yes of course I own the Brooklyn bridge, been in my family for decades. How much were you thinking of paying?

i'm looking into aquiring the golden gate right now. I'm gonna sell it for scrap.
any information you can give me on building bridges and then dismantling them when the fool is halfway across...oops i mean when the public has been cleared from the area would be appreciated.

Essan, everyone is quite aware of the of the supposed age which is all opinion, but it is not now nor is it ever the be all and end all. History states otherwise. And they are qite a few people who belief as I do, gO do a Google search, you'll be surprised what you might find. I'm not alone.

And, shall I just point out now, Enoch himself wasn't even Hebrew, he was Ethiopian.

The book of enoch appears to fdate from the 3rd or 4th century bce
It describes events just before the flood
that places the events in approx 3400bce by sumerian reckoning.
about 26,000 by the R C latest estimate.
i think it was written in the 3rd or 4th century bce but describes a time much earlier
I believe iirc that enoch was writing from babylon so he would have access to the old sumerian records
they were a tradition by then