Since the topic was brought up recently, I would like to point out
to both sides of the Adam and Eve story, that the Old Testament is
not whole, and thus is subject to wide latitudes of conjecture.
There are 2 chapters in the book of Genesis that are incomplete,
and are lacking in substantive information enough to answer many questions.
The first, is after the birth of Cain and Abel, the two brothers argued, and Abel
was later slain by his brother. It says that his wife just appears, and then they
have children. Where does his wife come from? Were there others not mentioned?
Where did they come from, and why aren't they mentioned in the verses?
Was is his sister? This has been argued weakly, I might add, by Biblical scholars.
Second, in chapater 6, there is talk of "Giants". This is quickly glossed over
in context, and no more is mentioned. Why? Whom was referred to as these
"Giants"? Who were they? Where did they come from?
Many have speculated that these were the early large population known as the
Phillistines. I doubt this, because there is not enough evidence to support that claim.
Not only the issues and problems with the Noah's Ark depiction, we have the two
previous problems in Bibical records that no one can answer.
Either our timelines are way off, or these Old Testament stories are being
interpreted wrong.
In either case, no one can know for sure.
Full Version: Admittedly, there are holes in the Genesis story..
The one thing I always pondered about Adam and Eve is how there can be so many different nationalities, or races... if everyone was created by two people. Also if we came from adam and eve then how come we aren't all deformed, because that means our ancestry is all inbred. That's one of the first things that caught my eye about the bible and no one with strong faith has ever been able to answer that paradox to me and yet they still believe. 
These are some of the very things I asked the nuns and preists in catholic school. They complained to my parents about that, you can be sure. I found so many inconsistancies in that book that I began my own quest for the truth. Once I began to think of everything as a metafor that is when I began to understand that this was a great tale of fiction. You will find a lot of wisdom in many of the posts here concerning this topic.
The answer is incest it was O.K. back then, for Jews! 
Facts and evidence mean nothing in Christianity, and like you said no one will answer them!
Facts and evidence mean nothing in Christianity, and like you said no one will answer them!
Or they'll explain it away.
QUOTE(curiousity @ Jul 26 2005, 11:28 AM)
These are some of the very things I asked the nuns and preists in catholic school. They complained to my parents about that, you can be sure. I found so many inconsistancies in that book that I began my own quest for the truth. Once I began to think of everything as a metafor that is when I began to understand that this was a great tale of fiction. You will find a lot of wisdom in many of the posts here concerning this topic.
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I too was booted from Catholic school, I asked to many questions was the reason I was not "Good Catholic material" Oh shucks.. I'm with you curiousity the bible is metaphorical at best, Not to be taken literally as it is and we wonder why we have so many problems. I think you bring your level of awareness to the Adam and Eve allegoric story, its similar to a fairy tale it contains a truth for living life. Namaste Sheri
All these problems mean that the Hebrew scribes, cribbing from the older Semitic holy scriptures, were caught and didn't get to steal the rest of the stories! 
Yes that would be because Genesis came from an earlier work called 'Jubilees' which was part of the Pentateuch, and quoted the very book on my sig (see the word Enoch....yep right there). Genesis is a partial account, and on top of that, a second account given to Moses by an angel. Enoch got it directly from God.
i believe giants came from woman who where prenagted with angels(god then punish them).
Yes AnhZors, that's what Enoch is all about. And the original tem wasn't even 'giants' it was, as they are, 'Nephilim'.
QUOTE(Discordia @ Jul 27 2005, 03:58 AM)
The one thing I always pondered about Adam and Eve is how there can be so many different nationalities, or races... if everyone was created by two people. Also if we came from adam and eve then how come we aren't all deformed, because that means our ancestry is all inbred. That's one of the first things that caught my eye about the bible and no one with strong faith has ever been able to answer that paradox to me and yet they still believe.
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Before I begin, I would like to point out that I do not know all the answers. Indeed, I have many theories on the Genesis account, ranging from literal truth, to metaphorical imagery, to poetic explanations. Not having ever lived at the time, all anyone can do is give theories. I have thus relegated the question to the realm of intellectual curiosity only. The ultimate conclusion I have arrived at though, is that, whatever theory we apply to Genesis, the point is still the same - that God is the creator of all.
That said, these questions Discordia, are easily answered. You must either have [1] never asked the question, or [2] not asked intelligent people. If Genesis is metaphorical and/or poetic, any query you bring up can be countered with the statement "it's not literal" (which you may rightly call a cop-out if you wish). If it's real though, you can answer each question like this:
how there can be so many different nationalities, or races... if everyone was created by two people - Read the Tower of Babel account where God confuses everyone's language. It is conceivable that from here branches the origins of all races.
if we came from adam and eve then how come we aren't all deformed, because that means our ancestry is all inbred - Taking the literal account of the Bible, it is also clear that God is behind it all, and could easily have bent/broken the physical laws which constrain us today in regards to inter-breeding.
As I said to start, I don't know the answer. No-one does. I'm just putting ideas forward.
All the best,
And so they're at it already....they fall back on the age old, cop out, "I can't think of anything better" answer of...
....
..."God did it. So there."
I hope that, one day, religion is going to have to face up to the fact that many, many elements of it simply do not make sense. What is it now? Ten thousand years since the old testament was written? And still people cling to it...clinging to the same outdated, poorly devised, written in ignorance of the world veiws of ten thousand years ago.
Scary...
....
..."God did it. So there."
I hope that, one day, religion is going to have to face up to the fact that many, many elements of it simply do not make sense. What is it now? Ten thousand years since the old testament was written? And still people cling to it...clinging to the same outdated, poorly devised, written in ignorance of the world veiws of ten thousand years ago.
Scary...
QUOTE
Ten thousand years since the old testament was written?
Try 2600 years since the OT was written and 2900 since Judaism came into being. The bible is mainly mythology put together by Hebrew scribes in the 6th century BCE, using a very few semitic scriptures from older Semite civilizations and making the rest up. There is very little historical or archaeological evidence for the OT and what exists if only for the period just before the Exile and some of what came after the Exile. Daniel and ENOCH were written around 165 BCE and contain nothing of importance because their so-called prophecies were after the fact, reporting only what had already happened before they were written.
Well said Mako 
The Pentateuch and Histories (ie Books of Kings, Chronicles etc) plus some of the other books of the Bible date to around the time of King Josiah of Judah. He wanted them to support his intent of ruling a joint kingdom of Judan and Israel, and of making the monotheistic worhsip of YHWH the only religion in the 2 kingdoms (until them many other deities had been worshipped alongside YHWH).
They were later amended after Josiah's plans went somewhat awry and everyone ended up exiled in Babylon........
Genesis itself is simply a collection of folk tales and tribal origin myths from the various tribes of Israel and Judah, cobbled together to form a continuous narrative. In terms of a true history it's along similar lines to Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain and I'm sure no-one here really believes that King Arthur sacked Rome and was Emperor of the whole of Western Europe?
The Pentateuch and Histories (ie Books of Kings, Chronicles etc) plus some of the other books of the Bible date to around the time of King Josiah of Judah. He wanted them to support his intent of ruling a joint kingdom of Judan and Israel, and of making the monotheistic worhsip of YHWH the only religion in the 2 kingdoms (until them many other deities had been worshipped alongside YHWH).
They were later amended after Josiah's plans went somewhat awry and everyone ended up exiled in Babylon........
Genesis itself is simply a collection of folk tales and tribal origin myths from the various tribes of Israel and Judah, cobbled together to form a continuous narrative. In terms of a true history it's along similar lines to Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain and I'm sure no-one here really believes that King Arthur sacked Rome and was Emperor of the whole of Western Europe?
Admittingly The Bible stories have holes in them but then so does Evolution theory
do you really believe in the Testaments ?
QUOTE(Discordia @ Jul 26 2005, 01:58 PM)
The one thing I always pondered about Adam and Eve is how there can be so many different nationalities, or races... if everyone was created by two people. Also if we came from adam and eve then how come we aren't all deformed, because that means our ancestry is all inbred. That's one of the first things that caught my eye about the bible and no one with strong faith has ever been able to answer that paradox to me and yet they still believe.
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There is a very simple answer to your question curiosity. The Bible is a very complex book. You must read each scripture with laser focus detail. Look closely in GEN:1. We all agree that God created Heaven and Earth in six days. Well, Adam and Eve werent created until the 8th day, Yet man was created in his likeness on the 6th day. Read GEN, 1:26-28. God created man and said "Be Fruitful and Multiply". This was the creation of all the different races. If you look closely in GEN: 2&3 you will notice that God NEVER tells Adam & Eve to go fourth and do anything until they disobeyed God by partaking of the fruit from the tree with the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve were created for a specific purpose, and that was to create a pure bloodline to Christ. Now, the Bible also refers to Eve as the "Mother of all living". This means that she is the Mother of Christs' bloodline and Christ is our source of life. Hope this answers your questions.
So how many men and women did God make on the 6th day? 2? 20? 2,000? 2million?
Anyway, it's all irrelevant becasue we're all descended from Noah and his sons - everyone else having persished when God flooded the entire world because some folk refused to follow his autocratic demands.....
Anyway, it's all irrelevant becasue we're all descended from Noah and his sons - everyone else having persished when God flooded the entire world because some folk refused to follow his autocratic demands.....
QUOTE(ttfn101 @ Jul 26 2005, 01:49 PM)
Since the topic was brought up recently, I would like to point out
to both sides of the Adam and Eve story, that the Old Testament is
not whole, and thus is subject to wide latitudes of conjecture.
There are 2 chapters in the book of Genesis that are incomplete,
and are lacking in substantive information enough to answer many questions.
The first, is after the birth of Cain and Abel, the two brothers argued, and Abel
was later slain by his brother. It says that his wife just appears, and then they
have children. Where does his wife come from? Were there others not mentioned?
Where did they come from, and why aren't they mentioned in the verses?
Was is his sister? This has been argued weakly, I might add, by Biblical scholars.
Second, in chapater 6, there is talk of "Giants". This is quickly glossed over
in context, and no more is mentioned. Why? Whom was referred to as these
"Giants"? Who were they? Where did they come from?
Many have speculated that these were the early large population known as the
Phillistines. I doubt this, because there is not enough evidence to support that claim.
Not only the issues and problems with the Noah's Ark depiction, we have the two
previous problems in Bibical records that no one can answer.
Either our timelines are way off, or these Old Testament stories are being
interpreted wrong.
In either case, no one can know for sure.
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to both sides of the Adam and Eve story, that the Old Testament is
not whole, and thus is subject to wide latitudes of conjecture.
There are 2 chapters in the book of Genesis that are incomplete,
and are lacking in substantive information enough to answer many questions.
The first, is after the birth of Cain and Abel, the two brothers argued, and Abel
was later slain by his brother. It says that his wife just appears, and then they
have children. Where does his wife come from? Were there others not mentioned?
Where did they come from, and why aren't they mentioned in the verses?
Was is his sister? This has been argued weakly, I might add, by Biblical scholars.
Second, in chapater 6, there is talk of "Giants". This is quickly glossed over
in context, and no more is mentioned. Why? Whom was referred to as these
"Giants"? Who were they? Where did they come from?
Many have speculated that these were the early large population known as the
Phillistines. I doubt this, because there is not enough evidence to support that claim.
Not only the issues and problems with the Noah's Ark depiction, we have the two
previous problems in Bibical records that no one can answer.
Either our timelines are way off, or these Old Testament stories are being
interpreted wrong.
In either case, no one can know for sure.
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To be honest, we can ALL know for sure. The Bible is NOT incomplete, nor are there "Holes" in it. If you are to understand the Bible then you MUST have Ear's to Hear and Eyes to See. First, Cain found his wife in the land of Nod. The Hebrew meaning for the word Nod is "Confusion". Therefore the scripture should read Land of Confusion, meaning that Cain was wondering aimlessly outside of the Garden of Eden. Where did his wife come from? This is also very simple. If you look closely in GEN 1:26-28 you will see that God created man on the 6th day. This was a separate creation from Adam and Eve. This was the creation of all the different races and nationalities. It was among these people that Cain found his wife. Also, did you know that Cain was not Adams son? Sounds crazy doesnt it. If you look in GEN 5 you will not find Cain listed in Adams geaneology. Email me and I will be happy to explain this to you and show you Biblical scripture to support it.
Finally, the "Giants" spoke of in GEN 6 are the offspring of those individuals who consumated with Satans angels who came down to earth to corrupt the bloodline of Christ. This is what brought on Noahs flood. Noah was chosen to build the Ark because he was the only one left among Christs bloodline who's family had not been corrupted by Satan. Reply if you have questions.
In the mean time, I will keep you in my prayers.
QUOTE(Essan @ Jul 27 2005, 10:23 AM)
So how many men and women did God make on the 6th day? 2? 20? 2,000? 2million?
Anyway, it's all irrelevant becasue we're all descended from Noah and his sons - everyone else having persished when God flooded the entire world because some folk refused to follow his autocratic demands.....
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Anyway, it's all irrelevant becasue we're all descended from Noah and his sons - everyone else having persished when God flooded the entire world because some folk refused to follow his autocratic demands.....
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First off the ENTIRE world was not flooded. If you have a "Strongs Concordance of the Bible" you will see that the word "World" in Hebrew means part or whole land. Furthermore, you must read the entire story before you argue a point. The water only rose 30 cubits, which is only about 40'. We know there are elevations on the Earth that reach up to six miles high. i.e...K2,and Mt. Everest. Now how could the Water have covered "All the mountains" (as it says it GEN) if it was only 40' deep.
Sorry, I need to correct myself. The water rose 15 cubits, which is only about 30'. I apologize for the incorrect statement that the water rose 30 cubits.
no problem. You know of course that you could have editted your first post, instead of copying it over though.
Welcome to the boards.
Welcome to the boards.
QUOTE
First off the ENTIRE world was not flooded. If you have a "Strongs Concordance of the Bible" you will see that the word "World" in Hebrew means part or whole land. Furthermore, you must read the entire story before you argue a point. The water only rose 30 cubits, which is only about 40'. We know there are elevations on the Earth that reach up to six miles high. i.e...K2,and Mt. Everest. Now how could the Water have covered "All the mountains" (as it says it GEN) if it was only 40' deep.
QUOTE
Sorry, I need to correct myself. The water rose 15 cubits, which is only about 30'. I apologize for the incorrect statement that the water rose 30 cubits.
Let’s look at what Genesis actually says:
Gen 6:7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Looks pretty cut and dried to me, he specifically says that he is wiping man, beast, creeper and fowls of the air from THE FACE OF THE EARTH. Now a localized flood might get rid of most men and beasts and even creepers, but the fowl would merely fly off to a non-flooded place. This in itself says that he said and meant the entire world.
Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
As you can see, it specifies all the high hills that were under the WHOLE heaven, well the whole heaven is above the whole earth – that means the entire world was flooded.
Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Quite obvious here the mountains of the world were covered with 15 cubits more than their height. This means the depth of the water was 6 miles +!
Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both fowl, and of cattle and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth and every man.Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, af all that was in the dry land, died.
Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven, and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
There it is, directly from your book of mythology! It specified that ALL flesh died, not flesh in one area, but ALL flesh. Again, if it had been a localized flood those fowl that were supposedly killed would have flown to a dry area!
Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
That’s nearly a half of a year, no localized flood could last that long…and on the even more negative side, seeds and spores exposed to more than three months of pressure equivalent to 6 miles of water would be destroyed! No food for the herbivores!
You are correct in the scripture, However you must consider the entire story, you must also know the true meanings of certain translated words. A concordance will help you with this. Lets look further into Genesis.
GEN, 8:11, "And the dove came unto him in the evening; and lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth"
Where did the dove get an olive leaf? Furthermore, this means that in 40 days, the entire earth was destroyed. The waters were upon the earth for 150 days. Now, the olive tree is a VERY slow growing plant, the leaves it produces grow even slower. Now lets apply some common sense here, do you really think this planet can be destroyed and replenished within 150 days? Please.
Warrior4christ,
You'll need to stop quoting the entire contents of previous posts within your replies, they are redundant and a waste of space. Also, instead of submitting multiple posts one after the other because you forgot to mention something, use the edit function to make the additions/corrections in the original post, don't add a new post.
MM
You'll need to stop quoting the entire contents of previous posts within your replies, they are redundant and a waste of space. Also, instead of submitting multiple posts one after the other because you forgot to mention something, use the edit function to make the additions/corrections in the original post, don't add a new post.
MM
QUOTE(Magikman @ Jul 27 2005, 04:40 PM)
Warrior4christ,
You'll need to stop quoting the entire contents of previous posts within your replies, they are redundant and a waste of space. Also, instead of submitting multiple posts one after the other because you forgot to mention something, use the edit function to make the additions/corrections in the original post, don't add a new post.
MM
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You'll need to stop quoting the entire contents of previous posts within your replies, they are redundant and a waste of space. Also, instead of submitting multiple posts one after the other because you forgot to mention something, use the edit function to make the additions/corrections in the original post, don't add a new post.
MM
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I didnt quote the entire contents of previous posts. I will however edit previous ones when making corrections. I apologize, I am new here and havent figured it all out yet
^^^
That's an example of 'quoting the entire contents' of a previous post. Its entirely unnecessary, especially when your reply sits directly below the post you copied into your message. I wasn't referring to this thread specifically, there were several posts in the 'evolution' thread that you must have included 5 to 7 previous posts into your replies.
MM
That's an example of 'quoting the entire contents' of a previous post. Its entirely unnecessary, especially when your reply sits directly below the post you copied into your message. I wasn't referring to this thread specifically, there were several posts in the 'evolution' thread that you must have included 5 to 7 previous posts into your replies.
MM
In other words, you god has made the whole thing impossible to read without special aide....NOT! The bible says what it says, you can squint your eyes and cross them and try to say that it means something else, but to no avail. The Jews stole the story from older religions and just didn't get it right, so now those that believe in those fairy tales have to make excuses and pretend that it takes a special knowledge that only believers are granted to read the bible properly. I don't think so.
I'm sorry, but does anyone here actually listen. Genesis was a SECOND acccount, go read the Dead Sea Scrolls or something.
QUOTE(Sheri berri @ Jul 26 2005, 12:31 PM)
I too was booted from Catholic school, I asked to many questions was the reason I was not "Good Catholic material" Oh shucks.. I'm with you curiousity the bible is metaphorical at best, Not to be taken literally as it is and we wonder why we have so many problems. I think you bring your level of awareness to the Adam and Eve allegoric story, its similar to a fairy tale it contains a truth for living life. Namaste Sheri
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I never went to Catholic school, but I was booted out of Sunday school for the same reasons, Sheri
I learned to read by the time I was 4, and consequently would read passages in the Bible which conflicted with (or added other dimensions to) what was being taught, and would bring these questions up in class. My grandmother was told that I was never to be allowed to come back to Sunday school, as I was disruptive. 
Ahh, the battles I used to have with Father Ted and Brother Peter. Those were the days. Did you know that in the Jesuit Monastary, they teach the initiates Logic, Rhetoric and Debate? As well as sciences and mathematics and Language.
It makes the Jesuit of even moderate intelligence, a formidible opponent.
It makes the Jesuit of even moderate intelligence, a formidible opponent.
I think the main holes in Genesis are the items that conflict with many peoples core beliefs behind God - that he is Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent.
Omnipotent - All Powerful - An all powerful being doesn't need rest. An Omnipotent God would think it/ say it, and it is so. Surely an Omnipotent God doesn't need to flood the Earth - he could just smite all the naughtiness from it in a blink, couldn't he?
Omniscient - All Knowing - Isn't the fact that God had to flood the Earth and start again a little contrary to the whole "God is Omniscient" thing? Leaving the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of Eden doesn't sound like a very Omniscient thing to do. Nor does not realising that Satan would rebel.
Omnipresent - Always Present - Not when the Serpent spoke to Eve.
So what does that leave you?
A God that's not everywhere at once. A God that's not all powerful. A God that's unable to predict the future accurately. A God that makes mistakes.
Creator, yes. Amazingly powerful? Yes. God? Not in the way that most people believe God to be, at least, not according to Genesis.
Omnipotent - All Powerful - An all powerful being doesn't need rest. An Omnipotent God would think it/ say it, and it is so. Surely an Omnipotent God doesn't need to flood the Earth - he could just smite all the naughtiness from it in a blink, couldn't he?
Omniscient - All Knowing - Isn't the fact that God had to flood the Earth and start again a little contrary to the whole "God is Omniscient" thing? Leaving the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of Eden doesn't sound like a very Omniscient thing to do. Nor does not realising that Satan would rebel.
Omnipresent - Always Present - Not when the Serpent spoke to Eve.
So what does that leave you?
A God that's not everywhere at once. A God that's not all powerful. A God that's unable to predict the future accurately. A God that makes mistakes.
Creator, yes. Amazingly powerful? Yes. God? Not in the way that most people believe God to be, at least, not according to Genesis.
Good point Tiggs> He also seems to have "stepped away" when Cain slew Abel.
Maybe He was in the little Gods room.....
Maybe He was in the little Gods room.....
The point I'm trying to bring up here is that using Genesis alone isn't a valid argument. The entire text of Genesis is full of holes because they've only used part of the text to begin with, and like I said it's not even the first account. If and when you read the entire thing (Dead Sea Scrolls, Jubilees, Enoch) and STILL find holes, come back and see me and I'll look it over. As of yet, I have found none.
however, you only find something if you are looking for it.
Of course you need to look. Objectively of course, but it's not just going to fall into your lap. There is also a need to be knowledgable enough in the area to understand what you are reading.
QUOTE(Discordia @ Jul 26 2005, 12:58 PM)
The one thing I always pondered about Adam and Eve is how there can be so many different nationalities, or races... if everyone was created by two people. Also if we came from adam and eve then how come we aren't all deformed, because that means our ancestry is all inbred. That's one of the first things that caught my eye about the bible and no one with strong faith has ever been able to answer that paradox to me and yet they still believe.
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Differnt nationalities and races-splitting of the tongues wasn't created till the building of the Tower of Babylon. It was built by the one race of earthly people to try to reach the heavens-God's Heaven and they thursted for knowledge. God struck the tower down and split they're tongues up so noone could understand each other so that way they wouldn't build another tower. But of course during the end times and right before Antichrist reigns over earth, he will rebuild the tower in the east.
Where, exactly, does it ever say the antichrist will rebuild the tower in the East?
QUOTE(Ashley-Star*Child @ Jul 27 2005, 11:49 PM)
If and when you read the entire thing (Dead Sea Scrolls, Jubilees, Enoch) and STILL find holes, come back and see me and I'll look it over. As of yet, I have found none.
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I understand your response. However, for good reason, I have read Enoch and Jubilees many times, along with as many of the dead sea scrolls fragments as I could find.
While I agree with you that Genesis is a hacked and simplified version of the original texts, I believe my previous points relating to Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient still stand.
If you can convince me otherwise, I would gladly return to Church. You see, I lost my faith seventeen years ago, to these three very points. I spent the first three months afterwards reading everything I could, especially Enoch and Jubilees, but failed to answer those three fundamental points.
My faith is not strong enough to believe in a God that is not these three things. Your's obviously is, or you have seen scriptual evidence I have not found. If it is the latter, then I would graciously ask you to share it with me.
If it is the former, then Faith of that strength is a beautiful thing, and I would not seek to test it any further. Go in peace.
QUOTE(Pontius Pilate @ Jul 28 2005, 07:06 AM)
In other words, you god has made the whole thing impossible to read without special aide....NOT! The bible says what it says, you can squint your eyes and cross them and try to say that it means something else, but to no avail. The Jews stole the story from older religions and just didn't get it right, so now those that believe in those fairy tales have to make excuses and pretend that it takes a special knowledge that only believers are granted to read the bible properly. I don't think so.
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Forgive me for saying, but he only suggested you use a concordance. The Bible wasn't originally in English, there are bound to be translational differences. A concordance can help to clarify these differences.
For example: when Jesus asks Peter three times "Do you love me"?, and Peter replies each time, "You know I love you".
The word for love which Peter uses is Phileo, which is love between friends/colleagues etc.
Jesus used the term "Agape", which is true, self-sacrificing, godly love.
Both are translated correctly into English as "love", yet both also have somewhat different meanings. A concordance will help to make the distinction clear. There's no "special knowledge" that believers are granted that you are not privvy to.
Just a thought to consider. All the best,
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 08:33 AM)
Omnipotent - All Powerful - An all powerful being doesn't need rest. An Omnipotent God would think it/ say it, and it is so. Surely an Omnipotent God doesn't need to flood the Earth - he could just smite all the naughtiness from it in a blink, couldn't he?
God wasn't tired when He rested. Check up the meaning of the Sabbath, then read Hebrews 4. That should be enough for that.
As for flooding the Earth, check my post on "Supernaturally natural", in the Jesus - have you been healed thread.
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 08:33 AM)
Omniscient - All Knowing - Isn't the fact that God had to flood the Earth and start again a little contrary to the whole "God is Omniscient" thing? Leaving the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of Eden doesn't sound like a very Omniscient thing to do. Nor does not realising that Satan would rebel.
God could have done anything. Note though that when God finished creating the world he looked and saw "that it was VERY GOOD". It wasn't perfect. But it was good for God's purpose, which is creating humans to willingly choose to follow Him, and culminating in this possibility through Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross.
Likewise the tree was planted in the garden as a means to defy God. Man had no knowledge of good and evil at this time. God instructed them not to eat from the tree. It is however, man's nature to do what we are not allowed.
And God knew Satan would rebel. It's part of His plan. Read the whole Bible, the Old and NEw Testament.
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 08:33 AM)
Omnipresent - Always Present - Not when the Serpent spoke to Eve.
He wasn't physically there, you're right! But God isn't physically anywhere. His Spirit hovers over everything (cf Genesis 1)
So then PA, God set up humanity in a test He knew we would fail.
He knew we would fail, so he knew he would 'punish' humanity for it.
So he knew he would punish us for failing, so that he could send his son to 'redeem' us.
Yep. It still doesn't make sense to me. Of course, your faith may vary with usage.
He knew we would fail, so he knew he would 'punish' humanity for it.
So he knew he would punish us for failing, so that he could send his son to 'redeem' us.
Yep. It still doesn't make sense to me. Of course, your faith may vary with usage.
QUOTE(warrior4christ @ Jul 27 2005, 03:26 PM)
Furthermore, this means that in 40 days, the entire earth was destroyed. The waters were upon the earth for 150 days. Now, the olive tree is a VERY slow growing plant, the leaves it produces grow even slower. Now lets apply some common sense here, do you really think this planet can be destroyed and replenished within 150 days? Please.
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Why not if "God" made the whole of Heaven and Earth and created MAN in 6 days?? Doubting the "power" of your own Deity now?
I dont see any point in believeing every word in the bible, or just any chapter (genisis). Its so old, and has been passed down thru lifetimes, dont u think that parts of it got a little messed up. After all, who wrote Genisis?!...If it was the beginning of man and woman, who wrote it, and if Adam and Eve didnt, nor their sons and any other their children (etc) Was it made up?...how do we know it actually happened?...i have not yet been able to find the answer to this...can anyone?
About the Olive tree, and that whole situation, i dont think that since its a slow growing plant that it could grow that fast. I mean it got destroyed and grew back in 150 days. I mean, how do we know that at that time they werent measuring by days, maybe the days ment months. We have no proof but i guess thats a thot
Also, (but i dont mean to change the subject er anything) What do u guys think about Noahs Arc, putting 2 of every animal on a boat so they could save them to restart everything rite?....wat about the polar bears, penguins, anything that wasnt in the same continent. but still, to get 2 of EVERY animal?! HOW?!! 
About the Olive tree, and that whole situation, i dont think that since its a slow growing plant that it could grow that fast. I mean it got destroyed and grew back in 150 days. I mean, how do we know that at that time they werent measuring by days, maybe the days ment months. We have no proof but i guess thats a thot
Also, (but i dont mean to change the subject er anything) What do u guys think about Noahs Arc, putting 2 of every animal on a boat so they could save them to restart everything rite?....wat about the polar bears, penguins, anything that wasnt in the same continent. but still, to get 2 of EVERY animal?! HOW?!!
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 28 2005, 02:21 AM)
God wasn't tired when He rested. Check up the meaning of the Sabbath, then read Hebrews 4. That should be enough for that.
(Gen 2:2) Says that he both ended his work and rested from his work.
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 28 2005, 02:21 AM)
As for flooding the Earth, check my post on "Supernaturally natural", in the Jesus - have you been healed thread.
OK. I'm willing to accept that God can destroy us using any form he chooses.
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 28 2005, 02:21 AM)
God could have done anything.
Not my point. My point was that God didn't know this was going to happen (Gen 6:6-7)
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 28 2005, 02:21 AM)
Likewise the tree was planted in the garden as a means to defy God.
By whom? (Gen 2:8) says that God planted the Garden himself.
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 28 2005, 02:21 AM)
God instructed them not to eat from the tree.
(Gen 2:17) God lied to them and told them they would die if they did. Another aspect of God I find disturbing.
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 28 2005, 02:21 AM)
And God knew Satan would rebel. It's part of His plan. Read the whole Bible, the Old and NEw Testament.
Ok. That's going to take me some time to research.
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 28 2005, 02:21 AM)
He wasn't physically there, you're right! But God isn't physically anywhere. His Spirit hovers over everything (cf Genesis 1)
(Gen 3:8-9) would suggest otherwise.
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 03:10 PM)
(Gen 2:2) Says that he both ended his work and rested from his work.
It doesn't say God was tired and NEEDED to rest, does it
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 03:10 PM)
Not my point. My point was that God didn't know this was going to happen (Gen 6:6-7)
And it is my point that God did know.
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 03:10 PM)
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 28 2005, 02:21 AM)
Likewise the tree was planted in the garden as a means to defy God.
By whom? (Gen 2:8) says that God planted the Garden himself.
Correct. What's your point? Man was given this command: You may eat from any tree in the garden BUT NOT from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (I haven't got a Bible on me right now to get exact quotes).
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 03:10 PM)
(Gen 2:17) God lied to them and told them they would die if they did. Another aspect of God I find disturbing.
Are Adam and Eve still alive then? Nope. They're dead alright. They would have been immortal if they'd obeyed God.
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 03:10 PM)
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 28 2005, 02:21 AM)
And God knew Satan would rebel. It's part of His plan. Read the whole Bible, the Old and NEw Testament.
Ok. That's going to take me some time to research.
It's taken me six years and I'm nowhere near solving it. Good luck
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ Jul 28 2005, 01:43 PM)
So then PA, God set up humanity in a test He knew we would fail.
He knew we would fail, so he knew he would 'punish' humanity for it.
So he knew he would punish us for failing, so that he could send his son to 'redeem' us.
Yep. It still doesn't make sense to me. Of course, your faith may vary with usage.
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He knew we would fail, so he knew he would 'punish' humanity for it.
So he knew he would punish us for failing, so that he could send his son to 'redeem' us.
Yep. It still doesn't make sense to me. Of course, your faith may vary with usage.
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As I said, it's all part of God's plan. To create man with the ability to choose to follow God, and then to ultimately reconcile those who choose to Him.
But that's just my faith. Yours may also vary.
All the best,
QUOTE(Pontius Pilate @ Jul 27 2005, 05:06 PM)
In other words, you god has made the whole thing impossible to read without special aide....NOT! The bible says what it says, you can squint your eyes and cross them and try to say that it means something else, but to no avail. The Jews stole the story from older religions and just didn't get it right, so now those that believe in those fairy tales have to make excuses and pretend that it takes a special knowledge that only believers are granted to read the bible properly. I don't think so.
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If you will look in the front of every Bible, there is a letter from the writers. It clearly states that it was translated to the best of their ability. The original Aramaic language is very complicated. Therefore, YES you need assistance in understanding the english translation. Furthermore, the Jews did not steel anything. The Roman Catholic Church held the Bible for many years until King James forced them to surrender it. Also, like it or not, he is YOUR GOD also. You have free will to accept or deny him. Its obvious you have chosen the latter. That is your choice, and I pray that you change your mind. Finally, for someone who obviously has a problem with religion, you seem to know an aweful lot about it. If you want to know more, I will be happy to help.
QUOTE(themademailer @ Jul 27 2005, 11:54 PM)
QUOTE(warrior4christ @ Jul 27 2005, 03:26 PM)
Furthermore, this means that in 40 days, the entire earth was destroyed. The waters were upon the earth for 150 days. Now, the olive tree is a VERY slow growing plant, the leaves it produces grow even slower. Now lets apply some common sense here, do you really think this planet can be destroyed and replenished within 150 days? Please.
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Why not if "God" made the whole of Heaven and Earth and created MAN in 6 days?? Doubting the "power" of your own Deity now?
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Once again, you must read the entire book. The Bible says that One day with the Lord is as 1,000 years to us.
QUOTE(warrior4christ @ Jul 28 2005, 07:27 AM)
Also, like it or not, he is YOUR GOD also. You have free will to accept or deny him. Its obvious you have chosen the latter. That is your choice, and I pray that you change your mind.
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So sorry, but this statement is merely the opinion of you and the followers of your particular flavor of faith.
Your god IS NOT my god.
To state otherwise is arrogant and egotistical on your part, and derogatory to all other faiths.
Have a nice day. And a great afterlife, whatever you may believe it to be.
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 27 2005, 10:21 PM)
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 08:33 AM)
Omnipotent - All Powerful - An all powerful being doesn't need rest. An Omnipotent God would think it/ say it, and it is so. Surely an Omnipotent God doesn't need to flood the Earth - he could just smite all the naughtiness from it in a blink, couldn't he?
God wasn't tired when He rested. Check up the meaning of the Sabbath, then read Hebrews 4. That should be enough for that.
As for flooding the Earth, check my post on "Supernaturally natural", in the Jesus - have you been healed thread.
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 08:33 AM)
Omniscient - All Knowing - Isn't the fact that God had to flood the Earth and start again a little contrary to the whole "God is Omniscient" thing? Leaving the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of Eden doesn't sound like a very Omniscient thing to do. Nor does not realising that Satan would rebel.
God could have done anything. Note though that when God finished creating the world he looked and saw "that it was VERY GOOD". It wasn't perfect. But it was good for God's purpose, which is creating humans to willingly choose to follow Him, and culminating in this possibility through Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross.
Likewise the tree was planted in the garden as a means to defy God. Man had no knowledge of good and evil at this time. God instructed them not to eat from the tree. It is however, man's nature to do what we are not allowed.
And God knew Satan would rebel. It's part of His plan. Read the whole Bible, the Old and NEw Testament.
QUOTE(Tiggs @ Jul 28 2005, 08:33 AM)
Omnipresent - Always Present - Not when the Serpent spoke to Eve.
He wasn't physically there, you're right! But God isn't physically anywhere. His Spirit hovers over everything (cf Genesis 1)
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If I may clear some things up for you guys, I'd like to. First, the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not "Planted". It is figurative. Think about it. Who in the Bible would have total knowledge of both good and evil? This would be Satan. Bad trees produce bad fruit. Second, God never said "Dont EAT the fruit" he said do not "Partake" of the fruit. The bad fruit Im referring to here would be Cain. Now believe it or not, Cain was not Adams son. If you dont believe it, just look in GEN, 5:1 which lists Adams Geaneology. You will not find Cain in it. Thats because he was Satans son. Once again, this is also verified in GEN 3:15. Cain and Abel were "Fraternal" twins, meaning they had the same mother, but different fathers
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