I haven't been baptised in the Holy Spirit. As a young child I was afraid. It scared me. But I am sure God will give me this gift if I keep asking but it seems like I can't get it to happen. The other night I was singing while doing the dishes and I just was singing praises in another tongue. I didn't understand it but it was beautful. So maybe I am baptised and don't know it.

But my question to you is : Do you think tongues is for today or just the days of pentecost? I Believe it is for today but many people feel different.



Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.


Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.


Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.


Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

The miracle at Pentecost was for a reason the risen Christ had instructed them to go out to the four corners of the world to share the gospel with all, and as many of the disciples were simple fishermen the did not have the ability to speak foreign languages. This I believe was the need for such a miracle Also note in the bible there was never a mention that all churches should worship the same way. In fact many of the scriptures in the New Testament were letters written to the individual churches in different cultures. There never was to be a one world church as some Christians are led to believe.
I myself tend to gravitate to more fundamental conservative Baptist church as it is more suited to my personality. I shy away from the holy rollers because I don’t feel comfortable in that environment. That being said I have no problem with other Christians who prefer to worship in a spirit filled way.

The holy spirit is the teacher and reveals the word to the believer. When you begin to understand the bible you can be assured that the Spirit is working within you. Because it is confusing for a perpose.

One of the mysteries of Christianity. much to the chagrin of those that do not believe. Is that you must first come to Christ by faith alone and then the truth is revealed to the individual with no doubts by means of the Holy Spirit.
The facts are revealed within our hearts, but we are only able to show others with words and deeds.

Thanks Irish.

The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is a product of a political expedition of the Church to bring Egyptians into the church at Alexandria. The Egyptians had a trinity and to establish one within Christianity would be a good avenue to attracting them. The Egyptians were astute and one priest asked "If Jesus is the savior and no one can enter heaven without accepting him, what happens then with all the people who died before Jesus was born?" The issue was perplexing until the early church fathers composed the Apostle's Creed wherein Jesus descends into hell to save the souls waiting there. Convenient to answer the question and supportive of the Holy Trinity concept that was still budding at that time. At last, at the Council of Nicea, the idea of a trinity was introduced and barely passed by a vote of the body in attendance. Purely political, purely inventive, purely deceptive and purely compelling since there are those even today who insist they have been inspired by this Holy Phantom that was born as part of an expansion movement.

Okay so your saying that God isn't the holy spirit that this is a figmant of our imagination? I mean it is hard to understand when you have been born into a penecostal church all your life. I mean the Trinity is just what God is. No matter what others say. Why would God refer to make men in our image in Genesis.

Irish i am not religious but i would take what you are saying in this way I think Christianity in particular teaches that the way to "God" is through excepting Jesus Christ as your savior is this close???Now first i wouldn't call that mysterious I'd call that a great sales tatic. it implys that you yourself aren't "Christian enough to form your own relationship with God" You need a mediator, where as the Non religious person might say that is false because although I think Jesus was an amazing guy his message was "we are all the same the father and I are one "and that means you too," the things you see me do (and this is key) you can do to and more," I understand that to mean I am in the same image and likeness of Christ and if I chose i could evolve to a Christ conciousness myself, anyone could, It seems to me religon shrouds things in mystery to keep its membership up, if the church can keep you doubting in yourself its got you. I'm just giving a non religious opinion I mean no harm, Namaste Sheri

Men have always been inspired by what they believe. That doesn't make what they believe valid or real. When religious concept clash with historical fact, however, then the mind needs to open to the same dimensions as faith. In fact, even more. Faith is fragile and by nature weak. There is no mention of a trinity in the Talmud sources from which the Old Testament is founded. Even Jesus said, "My father is greater than me." That does not describe the unity as demanded in a trinity. The manipulations of the early church were incredibly clever and must be admired. People still ask why God does not appear to believers in modern times and reportedly He did in olden times. (There is a question in this website to that affect) and the existence of a Holy Spirit was the perfect solution. Yes, God is always with you in the form of this invisble entity. The problem is that the records of the Council of Nicea still exist as well as the letters of Cyrus, the Archbishop of the Church of Alexandria and all give support to the fact that the Trinity was adopted and designed to expand the church into Egypt. It worked and it worked so well that the idea exists today and is accepted as spiritual fact.

Well just because the findings that you speak of says the Trinity could be false is not what I believe but very interesting answer.

BTW welcome to Um.

And I sincerely respect your beliefs. I would, however, like to address your question about the pluralities mentioned in Genesis. "Let us make man in our image," for example. As well, " . . .let him not eat of the tree of knowledge lest he be immortal like us."
There is no doubt that a vast division between people existed in early Biblical times. People like Sitchen would like for us to believe that they were alien visitors but I won't go that far. What I will claim, however, is that they were considered to be dieties by others. Archaeological evidences indicate that these people constructed their cities on high grounds and that the first practices of animal sacrifice were conducted at sites below their cities as acts of reverence.
In the second chapter of Genesis we find the strange comment, "And the sons of God looked down upon the daughters of men and saw that they were fair . . . ." That is as confusing as the plurality of gods at the creation but both can be explained by clay tablets in the basement of the Royal British Museum dating back to pre-Old Testament times where a law existed prohibiting those within the upper-class cities at high elevations to sexually mix with those below. But a group of twelve young men were tempted by these attractive women and broke the law. A scandal so intense that it was registered in court actions and thus onto the clay tablets made the tale indelible on human history until it entered Scripture. The same is true of the creation tale wherein early man believed himself to have been created by these gods dwelling on the high plateaus. The story of Noah can be found within the Epics of Gilgamesh, etc. All irrefutable by their very existence but none offer evidence that God is a trinity or that a trinity contains a true god.

brilliantly put Sheri, I have nothing to add, just wanted to let you know that

Man chose his own path in the Garden of Eden and severed his relationship with God in doing so. The price of his redemption was too high for him to pay (by human nature we would be unable to meet the standard required.) Though Jesus, God provided a legal loophole for reconciliation with our Creator. So yes, I believe Christ is the only way.

Deception was also in the works in the Garden, and so the great puzzle was dismantled for the individual to put it back together. The secret is within ones free will and the last few pieces are not given until acceptance of redemption. That is why the truth is not revealed until someone seeks those final pieces earnestly with their heart.
The Holy Spirit holds those final pieces so they can not be corrupted by the deceiver until they are delivered to the born again soul.

The great deceiver of mankind seeks to confuse by deliberately duplicating the evidence of God. That is why the Holy Spirit holds the final pieces to the puzzle and delivers them when the individual is truly ready to receive them.

But the point Irish is that everything is personal interpretation. You feel like the bible is true, god, the holy ghost whatever is real...but that doesn't make it fact! It just means that that is what you choose to follow. I don't get why people can say well i believe this so it is fact god is no more fact then purple being the prettiest color. It's personal choice. I prefer hamburgers to steak, does that automatically mean that i should be trying to convince everyone that steak is bad? just because you believe doesn't mean your right, i know that's hard to understand but try please that i respect your right to believe that but I don't want it shoved down my throat like fact

Yes it is just my opinion and personal interpretation and it’s also a fact that it is the same opinion of many before and after me as well as millions around me. And to me it is a fact and has been proven to me. Your personal opinion may leave you with what you consider fact and that is fine to, as the only thing most can really be sure of is death and taxes. As for shoving my belief on others, I only give my opinion when asked or when the subject arises as in a topic such as this.

There is nothing wrong with not giving your opinion, and it only an opinion until some one perceives it as imposing personal beliefs. Therein lays the problem. It is perfectly natural in conversation to share ones experience because it brought them joy and happiness and they may truly want you to have the same experience. Some people however are just plain bull headed and will not entertain others experience nor listen to them and that goes for religious people and atheist alike.

agreed! I wasn't saying you, but christians in general...sorry if you felt like I was picking on you

No offence taken bacca.
In many cases some Christian do have an agenda to fill the pews in their church I however feel they may have the wrong information as to what a church actualy is.
Having membership in a church is NOT a prerequisite for salvation. Acceptance of what Christ accomplished IS.
Christians are encouraged to join a church to have fellowship with like minded friends and for biblical education.
There are many Christians who have never set foot within a church building. The church really is as Jesus said......

Math 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name,(Jesus Christ) there am I in the midst of them.
And simply that!
Besides I'm way to old and crusty to be picked on

Bacca i just love you you say things so right on.

Irish , the point to me is religion does infringe to a very large degree it it the instigator of discrimination it sponsors racism violence it encourages low self esteem its not a heatlh promoting beleif system it is the largest discrimanator against half the population which i'm a part of, it terrorixzes little children , I don't mean to be so Honest but thas the truth of religion its not contributing to a better world and l for one want a better religion with "God being portrayed as a very unconditionally loving and the giver of the gift of free will religion even goes as far as to say well that doesn't mean free will it means something else, I see the Garden of eden story as the Original blessing , Thanks to Adam and Eve we have the ability to experience many things we have choice we have the ability to learn, I would like a positive religion everything is always bad about it, thas what we are asking WHY??? Namaste Sheri

Namaste Sheri, What you say is very true but the same can be said for any belief system whether it be politics, business or religion. When one believes in any thing with un-bridled passion they run the risk of offending others with different beliefs.
Wars are fought for many reasons besides religious belief and they all hope God is on their side so they will become heroes of their faith.
I am comfortable in my spirituality and do not impose on any one I hope. I would also like to find a political system that is both honest and positive but I am afraid that one does not exist.

Namaste Sheri, as for children being scared by religious beliefs I have to say on the contraire. Death is a fact we must all face someday whether it be a pet a parent or a good friend. It at least offers hope of a reuniting at some point in time. And I think that outweighs any fears we may have.

Irish I to would like a better political system ours is the system of deciet, Gosh I don't want to get started on politics, People like me are good because I'm not afraid to speak out (i"m not trying to be arrogant or concieted) as a people if we stand togehter we can make change one person at a time simply by really examining what we stand for what we beleive in .Beleifs have built this world beleiefs can change them, I honor any one's path especially when I don't agree but I got kids that are gonna be here long after i'm gone and i want them to know that there Mom GAve a Damn and was willing to stick her neck out. Namaste Sheri

What is really wrong with religion and politics is some people use it for their own gain and control. Put an evil man on a throne or a pulpit and you still have an evil man, only now he also has power over others.

you are right about the need for help in some situations irish. But that is just faith. Any faith will work don't you think? I choose to believe that there is something past out time here. And I believe that because I have felt, seen and heard what I believe to be ghosts/spirits. They have to be coming from somewhere right? Well anyway when it comes to death I have explained to my son what that is, that he will not see those who have left us but that doesn't mean he has to stop talking to them or loving them....I have also brought him to visit my grandmother and grandfather in a cemetery and explained to him that he must have respect for the dead. He understood that. It's faith not religion....hope that this makes sense...it's just my opinion

And it is a very good foundation you have

Eaxactly Irish, we give away our power or it gets abused either way I would like to see it change? Any suggestions Namaste sheri

thank you irish It's hard raising a little man on your own but I do my best and I teach him what I can when I can. I will teach him about my faith which is in part actually mostly about believing in yourself

It may have been the opinion of millions of others but remember that there were many millions more who never shared your ideas of Christianity or your concept of God. If we are going to make this a numers game, Christianity would surely lose.
What Bacca is saying is true, part of the "Christian" attitude must be to respect and accept the principles, ideas and beliefs of all others. Isn't it this very failure to accept other beliefs that is causing suicide bombers and religous terrorism?

I teach of death it is as natural as living nothing to fear thats what I teach, my kids know that I will one day be gone from here but that doesn't mean we can't communicate from whererever i'll be, I beleive love is the elixir that binds us How do we know that death may be the koolest thing we ever do, why does it have to be a scary thing?? I have had great teachers in my life who knew they were gonna die and the messages that I recieved were nothing to be afraid of. Namaste Sheri

To quote Timothy O’Leary of all people.
“Death is the best trip you will ever have thats why they leave it till last”

Irish i love that now thats what I'm talkin about. We need to talk about death more, Namaste Sheri

Well I don't know about all of you but I have enough to worry about here that I don't have time to worry about the afterlife. I would say if you do your best and follow your own faith, be true to yourself and don't intentionally harm (with no provocation that is) that it's all good. There is no way that the after life is anything but what it is, and since we have no clue what's the point in stressing about anything to do with it? especially just to follow some book!!! Can't you find more to life then that? can't you see the worship is mans creation not any gods? Sure the Greek and Roman gods wanted to be worshiped but everyday things were also attributed to them. Things that people saw and each was because of someone specific not some unknown entity that sent his son here 2000 years ago and then seemingly forgot about us

You are absolutely correct. It is only our personal belief which leads us to these conclusions. However, we also believe that the ramifacations of our beliefs are real too. That means life for those that follow Jesus, and death for those that don't.

To use an analogy, if I believed that a flood was coming which would destroy my entire town, I'd try and warn them. Whether I'm right or not will be irrelevant to me. The fact that I believe and want to see others saved from this flood drives me.

In similar vein, Christians believe (whether true or not) that they have a vital message that needs to go out.

But to answer the OP, Baptism is important in that it is an outward showing of our inward beliefs. Baptism is symbollic of the rebirth of our soul, and while it's good to do so if you can (and if you believe of course), it is not absolutely, 100% necessary.

Does that make sense.

Baptism in some churches is to wash away original sin......sorry my child has no sin and creating him also was not a sin. Baptism again is something that a church tells you you need. Nothing more nothing less. If your a believer that is all it takes. Do you really think that this god that you worship cares if you were baptised? what happens to all those believers who aren't? Faith is faith no matter what it is in, no matter how it is practiced and no church can change that or make it right or wrong. Only the people who go to that specific church can...As far as I'm concerned there is no man or woman who is more important then me so who exactly is baptising you anyway? just another man who believes right? What's the point if you need it for your personal reasons so that you think you have a stronger faith that's fine or whatever but think about it for a minute....it really doesn't make much sense. I was baptised my son was not does that make me more important or worthy in gods eyes? no!! no god cares as long as you believe

I see a lot here about faith. Let me give you an example. What color of blouse or shirt do you have on? Is it blue, red, yellow? Whatever the color, are you certain that it is that color? Of course. You do not need faith to know what color it is because it is an absolute fact. That is how God is with me . . . . an absolute fact. I do not need faith in my relationship with God because He knows my needs and I worship Him with a certainty of His existence. That is the fundamental prlbem with faith, that it requires doubts.

Isn't that what I just said? Baptism is symbollic of our rebirth into the Spirit. While being a good thing to do in and of itself, providing you believe of course, it is by no means "necessary" to salvation.



Most parents teach their children that lying is wrong. Why then do children lie? Did you break that? Noooooooooo. So unless lying is ok, then it's obvious that children have sin.

Just think about it. It's being truthful and accountable which requires teaching. Lying comes naturally.

my child was not BORN with any sin therefore he doesn't need it washed away!!!! and yes you have faith that there is a god you may take it as fact. But it is still faith that allows you to think like that.....And it will remain faith until you can show PROOF beyond a shadow of a doubt that he exists. And you just "knowing" is not a fact it's faith. Sorry if you don't agree with that but that is just how things are you can't have it as anything but faith becuase it's what and how you believe I can tell you that water is wet and that is a fact I can tell you that the bible is a book that is a fact...is there a god? maybe...that is going on faith

Ok, who said anything about facts? I believe the Bible to be true. That does not make it so - you're right, yet I still believe it to be that way.

Thus I feel I have an important piece of information which everyone needs to hear, because, if i'm right, it's the most important thing I can tell others.

right?

Sorry paranoid that fact comment wasn't for you it was for iaapac...sorry bout that

I know a lot of things that I whole heartdly believe but that doesn't give me the right to constantly force it onto others. Perhaps that is not what you do, but many do. An opinion should be given once, unless asked for again. After that you have to let it go. Sure in a place like this you can give it as many times as you feel necessary since basically isn't that the entire point?

Just because I think I "know" something doesn't mean everyone else needs to follow my lead. Some will some won't but trying to force, or convert them against their own choice in their own time will accomplish nothing if you truly feel that you are 100% right then why worry? if someone asks tell them if they don't then leave them alone and if for some reason they decide that they want more info perhaps they will come ask rather then having turned them off from it long before they would have the desire to find it in the first place

Paranoid Android kids are taught to lie, lying is not a natural behavior, maybe normal because its done so much but not inherenltly natural,you are coming from the perspective of your belief system so in that vein for you kids lie naturally, but as a parent if my kids lie its because they don't want to get into trouble, WE have inadvertantly encouraged lying by punishing for telling the truth, that is the only reason people lie, no one including a child is gonna tell the truth if they know they will get into trouble. This is a construct of man who misunderstands the meaning of sin. This is only my perspective this is not to offend you> Namaste Sheri

No where is this more obvious than in our police force and legal system.

well put sheri

I prefer the truth actually and my son knows or is learning anyway that if he tells the truth, even if its something bad, that he is in less trouble then if he lies in the first place. Besides the fact that I wouldn't consider a lie a sin.....oh wait i don't believe in sins period....silly me

Sorry but sin isn't something that i follow so the whole idea of it is somewhat off to me in the first place....no harm intended...it's just my opinion

Bacca I was raised by my grandparents and my grandmother in particular always said you don't need to lie there is nothing to big or to wrong that you would do that would cause me to not love , we'll talk about it then you need to learn from it so you don't do it again, It worked for me I certainly did stuff but she kept her word and i always learned something so I never repeated the mistake, I teach my boys the same way and it works, they tell the truth and if warranted they take responsibility for their actions, To me sin is Mistakes how else do we learn, For goodness sake you can not expect a child to not make mistakes walk around all paranoid to commit a "sin" I tell my boys if you don't make mistakes you aren't learning anything or growing. My greatest mistakes have been my gretest gifts and teachers, I wouldn't change them i wouldn't be who I am today. Namaste Sheri

baptism is merely a ritual to make one a member of the tribe. perfomed as a social bonding, it provides a kinsmanship.

indeed, deception is natural only in so far is it is natural to avoid unpleasant stimuli. a child will deceive if this method has been demonstrated to result in a more favorable outcome. the christian methodology not only created the class of acts called "sin", but the methodologies that cause those acts to be performed. "we declare it wrong and you will suffer for it. we can also save your backside as well, so follow us. the kind gentleman at the door will disconnect your frontal lobes so you will be one with us" it is the perfect scam: declare something to need fixing and then proclaim yourself as the only method to repair. if there is anything false in this world, it is to be found in belief structures such as christianity. (need i really go on?)

Hyper very well put, punishments are artificially created outcomes, even trying to convert a punishment into a so called "consenquence does not change that it is still artifically made up, even a immature child will not be fooled for long, even still many parents still do this and the biggest thing they withhold is thier love through this behavior they have sought to control and manipulate their kids behavior this is not "natural" if we understand love at all we know that it is BIG enough to hold the worst behavior , Many Religions still to this day teach in this fashion and we wonder why people lie??? Namaste Sheri

Thanks Sheri.

To take another example then, selfishness. If a child is holding onto a lolly-pop, icecream, tissue box - anything really. Try taking it off them. See what happens. Or watch the reaction when a child asks a mother for a lolly at the shops. If she says no, watch the scream and tantrum.

Oh, btw, if I remember your earlier posts, you say you do not punish your children, but rather encourage love. Does that mean your kids have never told a lie?

All the best,

Paranoid, my son will give you what ever it is that you have asked him for and as for him throwing a fit about not getting something that doesn't happen either. He will look at me and go mommy do we have enough money to get that and if i say no he'll think about it for a minute and go ok you need to work more lol but he waits until i say yes and then he is happy and says thank you. If i tell him how much something costs, a new ps2 game perhaps he'll say ok its 40 how much do you have and i'll tell him and he'll go ok we only need such and such more. Not all kids throw fits that is a learned behavior because they did it once probably at a very young age and figured out it works. And they probably do it when they are throwing fits about everything learning their boundaries......As for telling lies that's something that as sheri said they do to avoid trouble they don't consciously go ok i need to lie about that right off the bat they see something that they may get into trouble for and their little brain goes oh wait wasn't me so again it is learned that they avoided trouble they figure out how and they learn to lie.....

From Acts 2 (KJV)

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


The whole point being that when anyone spoke, in spite of the fact that each understood (and presumably spoke) only his own language, everyone understood exactly what was being said, regardless of the nationality or tongue of the speaker. Speaking babble, which no one understands, is hardly "speaking in tongues". While they called it "speaking in tongues" it was more a matter of some universal translator at work, where each could listen to words spoken in an alien (to the listener) language, and yet understand completely what was being said. If everyone listening doesn't understand what is being said (and in their own language), and for that matter understands exactly what everyone else understands, it is not "speaking in tongues" as described in Acts 2. Incomprehensible babble doesn't cut it.

PA Sharing is taught very early its not a option its a way of life and thats how its taught, I haven't had an issue with my kids and sharing if I did it tells me that I have not taught the lesson well enough and start over, I teach this is how we do this do nothing but this, I have got 3 boys 22, 7, 11 (I've been a mother for awhile)
the middle boy did lie ONCE, the things that occured naturally were enough to teach him the outcome of lieing he caused a big problem and life is very wise in its natural consequences, As parents we get to impatient to wait for the natural occuring consequences that will follow any action so we try to speed things up with punishments we try to control and manipulate an outcome it doesn't work after you have been a parent long enough you have tried everything and you grow in wisdom and yes I guide with love because its the only thing that works I know this because I have been the parent who has learned through experience, Its hard for many to imagine parenting without punishing but I'm doing it and it works, there are consequences for every action the wise parent knows this and waits for that , I rarely have to do anything more than ask waht have you learned and discuss what they have learned, I'm a full time 100% parent I stay home so I have the time to wait, not every parent has this luxury. Namaste heri

Sheri, I wasn't making any comment on your parenting style. If it works, why not go for it.

It seemed though that you were saying children lied as an attempt to avoid punishment.

It is interesting that you say sharing is taught early. I'm curious, why did you need to teach sharing? If we were naturally good, wouldn't sharing come natually?

I'm not picking on you Sheri, I'm just trying to find out why you believe what you do. Thanks

All the best,

PA teaching to me isn't the pouring in of knowledge I'm not putting something in that isn't there I'm simply pulling out what is in my kids naturally, PA I feel the same applies to love and kindness , compassion, forgiveness etc. these things have been put into us by the creator we are simply being what we are naturally, you feel the opposite I'm assumingi (I'm asking) If we were not inherently good there would be no such thing as people who rescue babies from fires etc, when we are who we are naturally before we think about things we are amazing people, this is only my philosophy it doesn't mean it will apply for everyone, I am not offended by anything you ask how else do people get to know each other. Namaste Sheri

The baptism I am speaking of isn't Water baptism and has nothing to do with washing away sin but communicating to God in his language.

I'm sorry 101 what do you think baptism is? You think that you can talk to god in his own language? What would make you come to this conclusion? I'm not entirely understanding why you think that because you start humming or singing with strange words that that means anything. You weren't thinking about it so you just made sounds instead of words girl there is nothing amazing about that, no matter how much you wish there was....but that is just my opinion