The following small booklet was being passed to children yesterday in my city by a church. What I would like is for other christians or even skepticts to give their thoughts and explain wether this is the best way to teach children about this issue.

Do you think that associating gays with demons is the best way to explain your beliefs to children?

"Birds and The Bees" Booklet

There are so many distortions, inaccuracies, and outright lies in that booklet that I wouldn't even know where to begin adressing them. Suffice it to say that if turning children into possibly violent homophobes is this church's goal, then this booklet is perfect for the job.

I just about think I am disgusted with the human race. This reminds me of Nazi propaganda.

Yeah i find that very, very wrong. I avoid church- the Kingdom of God is in you- not in some building with some very misleading, corrupt and arrogant teachings.

Hmmm. Interesting outlook. I feel that way too at times.

But "fellowship" carries a certain importance.

On another note, I can't stand what some churches do to people. I suppose it takes a level of discretion on the believer's account. If you are going to church, are you going to the right one?

that pamphlet is disgusting and wrong

That's wrong and disgusting.

Ok, that pamphlet was innacurate, misleading, hate-mongering, and outright rude. I can say with absolute certainty that my church would never hand out a pamphlet like that.

My personal belief is that homosexuality is wrong, but it's not this unpunishable sin which certain groups (like the creator of this pamphlet) make it out to be. Indeed many of the nicest people I know are gay. See any of my other posts on the matter for my full belief.

Suffice it to say, it is "Christian" groups like this that give the rest of us a bad name.

All the best,

That sickens me, right to the core. I'd take a good swing at anyone who passed that to me or my children if i had them.
And if this was true, and god did think this way, then i'll have no problem preaching that god is worse than satan.

That site is infamous for being extremely....now...how should I put it....?

Full of sh*t?

I cant open the link could someone just post the website name so i can cut and paste it to my browser, please?

Sure. Here it is: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1052/1052_01.asp

Honestly when I read the pamphlet myself I was in awe as to how these people are teaching young children about homosexuality. This in many ways could make a kid homophoic and carry this hate for the rest of their lives.

I see we share the same knack for violence in situations like these. I wanted to take a good swing at the computer screen as I was reading it. If I was there as these were being passed out, I doubt I could restrain myself from doing something extreme. I agree with you that God is worse than Satan if this booklet was in any way true.

I feel great pity for anyone who reads this book (child) and takes it seriously. At a young age, the human mind is more likely to believe something like this. I would not be surprised if something as small as reading this just once at a young age and somewhat believing it would be enough to change the course of the person's life forever.

Relating this to Nazi propaganda is a VERY good thing to compare it with. Nazi's corrupted many beliefs (Including the Futhark) and it makes me sick at what they did. This is absolutely no different, and although I'm agnostic, I know for a fact that this isn't the word of God, and it's just a bunch of angry extremists. I would rather be captured by terrorists than have to watch peoples minds be corrupted with this hogwash.

The truth should always prevail, but it never does.

This makes me down right sick. God loves homesexuals, hetrosexuals, and bisexuals. The Bible its self says we are all his children and he loves us. I know I'm getting really religious gere but those homophobic Nazis really pissed me off. Is this how they're portraying christianity now? If so I might just become an athiest.

i am getting the inexplicable urge to mix up some some dynamite and blow somthing up pigs

Jack Chick and his group never cease to amaze me with how ignorant and yes, EVIL they are! has anyone seen the spoof in the Chick tracts that shows Jack Chick dying and discovering that the God of the Catholics is the real God and he is going to Hell for putting Catholics down? Hilarious!

Actually what the Bible says is: Leviticus 20:13 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:13 (New Living Translation)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.


13"The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

You may not like it that it says this, but it does. Sorry, the writers of the Old Testament decidedly thought that male homosexuality was such a great sin that only death of those who practice it was sufficient punishment. (The New Living Translation seems to extend it to women as well as men) Oh well, maybe they killed them because they loved them so much.

But God still loves them. If you can fin a verse that says he doesn't then the religion of Christianity isn't good enough for me.

Like I've said countless times before, man doesn't have the right to judge. And that's exactly what they are doing. They make homosexuals feel inferior to them and they have no right to do that. Did Jesus care what Mary Magdeline did? No. Man for one is not made for judgement, one day you'll realize why 'love they neighbour' and 'love thy enemy' actually means something. They most definantly are NOT preaching the Word of God, they are preaching the hatred of man.

As for that passage Larry, I've gone through that before, but I can tell you now I have NEVER seen the word 'homosexual' ANYWHERE in the Bible. If it's talking about homosexuality why does it not mention women? It's talking about sodomy, and if you can say you've never sinned they go ahead and cast a few stones. If you start casting though, know that you are lying. Everyone sins. I don't suppose it ever occured to you though that God isn't all that interested in what goes on in your bedroom, unless of course you are actually harming someone else (i.e. actual rape).

I've seen alot of people either leave or be ex-communicated as if they were in some way inferior because of MAN'S judgement not God's. Everyone has the right to believe, and if you think God is patting you on the head because you exclude people think again. If a fallen ANGEL can get salvation, and God wants their return, what the hell do you think He wants from man?

Ashley well put Namaste sheri

Oh...so it's perfectly all right to be homosexual, just so long as you never act on it? Is...that the message? That's just...so much less prejudiced and backwards

Thank you Sherri.

Seraphina, that's taken out of context. Technically - and for millenia - both homosexuals AND heterosexuals were practicing sodomy. Sodomy isn't the only method of intimacy a homosexual can have, and like I've already said, whether a person chooses to or not - of either sexual orientation - human's judgement of that is irrelvant.

Like I've said before, sodomy is not something I'd ever like to even try, but what another person does in their own bedroom quite frankly isn't my business nor of interest to me for judgement or otherwise.

Whenever homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible, it's in a list of sins - and not even at the top of the list. If you go through each of those quotes you've provided you'll find other sins before and after those verses. Homosexuality is just another way that we can disobey God.

But whatever happens, God still loves us all, gay and straight alike.



That's about the size of it. Just as it's perfectly alright to be single, just as long as you don't have sex before marriage. It's the same principle. Or just as it's perfectly alright to be married, as long as you don't go and cheat on your partner. Same principle.

But as I said, whatever happens, God still loves us.

All the best,

THAT IS VERY RUDE!!! HOW DARE THOSE PPL!!!

Well once again we get the distorted christian point of view. This is the most outragous piece of butt wipe I've ever seen. I can't even comment on it, it's so ridiculous.

Yes, P.A. has a point, something alot of Christian religions don't know about/take notice of. In the Hebrew religion (Judaism) from which these 'commandments' came from there were in all 613, some about what you should eat, some dealing with priests, etc. Out of ALL of them, only 10 were of great importance. These are the ONLY rules that were adhered to, and the ONLY ones cited by Jesus. Jesus didn't make more rules, He gave guidelines on what you should do, and even saying that, those 'laws' He was mocking the Pahrisees for was because the rules themselves, and the rituals themselves mean nothing if you take it out of context, and lose the real meaning of what it's about. That being God.

Now when you go to church (which is why I don't go, and when, I very rarely do, I go when it's empty solely to pray ALONE) you hear the million and 1 rules, some of which weren't even 'rules' to begin wth, just passages, and taken completely out of context, 3/4 of them weren't even said by Jesus or anyone else, buit were later man-made additions (like nuns and prients, there is nothing written about them havng to live the way they live ANYWHERE in ANY Bible).

I believe there's a passage mentioning homosexuality in virtually the same sentence as forbidding the wearing of a tunic woven from more than one type of material. All you guys out there with poly/cotton blends on - shame on you

These are not serious rules. 10 major commandments, even Jesus pointed that out for you.

And on the subject, do you really think - in light of what Jesus had to say about the Pahrisee's (NOT because they were Jewish, Jesus Himself was a JUDAIC practicing Jew, who revolutionized Judaism as an 'update' -tha's what Christianity IS) but because they'd lost the meaning of what they were doing - Jesus would come down here and pat ANY church on the head? NO. They've ALL lost the meaning of what they're doing, the priests of today are no different from those Pharisees (despite the fact that they may believe they are doing the right thing). The meaning of it all is GOD. Not rules, not rituals. GOD.

Take these words Jesus said Himself:

'Judge not, lest ye be judged'. God doesn't want man to condemn his own kind, one day, it's all going to come down to YOU.

God also said 'if there are 10 people in a city who are good and plead the case of man before me I wont destroy it'.

And in other parts He says it does not matter WHAT you've done, God will wipe it from memory as if it never happened, so long as you come back to Him.

Not serious rules? hmm how do you know the difference? I know with a child all rules are serious....wether its clean your room or don't talk to strangers. It they weren't all serious how are you supposed to know which ones he was serious about? And why waste the time on something that he didn't really care one way or the other if it was followed or not?

It seems funny to me that you can seem to pick and choose what you should and should not follow I would think you follow it all or none of it....Is it just that you personally don't like it so he must not have been serious about it? Or did he tell you last time ya'll talked that he was just kidding about some of them?

Ah, chill out. It's no secret that the church and God doesn't like homosexuality. He created then man and wife, male and female, Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. God created the family, husband and wife, so they can sleep with each other and have children. That's the purpose of a family. God doesn't hate homosexuals though. He loves everyone. He thinks it's an abomination to His creation. Man and woman fits perfectly well together. Not man on man.

Notice I left the words "and God" out of that statement. Please don't try to use antique fairy tales and lies to put words into the Creator's mouth. Only a bigot would make the statement that you made. The only reason the church doesn't like homosexuals is because they can't reproduce to provide more little Christians to provide more money for the preachers and such.....

This god told you that it doesn't like gays? Or were these tales handed down to generations of homophobic families. I would think if homosexuals are on this planet and born human, then they would belong here just the same as everyone else.
I asked this question before, "how would you feel if we were all supposed to be A-sexual?" Not hetero or homo, just sexual.

Ashley again well put, Namaste Sheri

I don't see why 'god' doesn't use his incredible powers and remove homosexuals if they offend him so much.

hrmm. He isn't removing them. Infact, they're increasing! How odd.
Come to think of it, if god made everything then he also made homosexuals.

If John Kerry is a flip-flop, god is a pancake in a frying pan.

There we have it Christianity at its finest, Saucy thank you for your candidness THE CHuRCH I repeat THE CHURCH does not like Homosexuality so they are claiming that God doesn't. actually they have created or imagined A god that doesn't like a whole lot of things Why do you suppose that is??? Control , money, I wonder???? Namaste Sheri

-offtopic Don't you guys hate it when the believers always say that it is the churches will and fault, god is all good and does nothing wrong... Some people even say that it wasn't the christians(church) doing the awful things they did offtopic-

About birds and bees? Just as stupid as every other churche's campaign... My personal oppinion on gays is that if they stay away from me and don't bother me then fine by me. Atleast they don't go around and give me papers with a big headline "Turn gay!". With that another group of people came in mind....

Zounds! I have never said that I in fact judged anyone. Not in any moral sense. I don't much care what others do, in fact, so long as it doesn't pretty directly affect me detrimentally. Now if some others decide that they have some right to force their morals on me, then it does affect me, and I won't put up with it. I have enough trouble running my own life to get involved in running others' lives. Some things are obvious, I think, such as murder, theft and the like, but when it gets to the less definite, I don't have the ego to think that I know what is best for everyone else. I was merely pointing out what the Old Testament said about it, not that I agree in any way. The plain fact is, that the writers of the Old Testament were rabidly against male homosexuality (nothing is said whatsoever about females). In Greece at the same time, no big deal, I understand. O tempora, o mores.

Ok, I think I misunderstood you there Larry. However, the fact still remains that the texts do not use the word 'homosexual' (and I'm btalking original texts) anywhere. Male homosexuality wouldn't have been brought up without female homosexuality was in fact what it was referring to.

It's kinda like the passage that says 'don't drop thy seed on the ground' argument. Says nothing about women, and therefore the current argument for it is irrelevant.

See I find this whole argument about exact wording really funny. Since words change over time what would make anyone think that they would have used the words 2000 years ago that we use now? How would some random person from back then know how we would talk about things today? and the simple fact is that even if it had been written by what's his name, there would never have been a way to put in words for each time as the meanings change constantly....so who cares what was exactly written down? Its a book of fiction that has no relevance today unless you happen to not be able to control yourself without the fear of hell that is.....And if that's the case then you have much bigger issues then the lack of an almighty deity....but they do have pills for that so it's all good.....but that's just my opinion

Ah Burnside, you dissapoint me. I thought moderators were supposed to actually read posts

Sorry, no jibe intended - don't take offense

As most of us here have said, this Birds and Bees pamphlet is a load of crap.

But when discussing the wrongness of homosexuality, Christians have not just mentioned homosexuality, but also pre-marital sex, extra-marital sex, pornography..... They are all just ways we can go against God. He doesn't hate anyone, just their actions. A homosexual is no more or less wrong than a heterosexual outside of marriage committing sexual acts.

All the best,

As scary as it may sound I agree with about everything Ashley has said. Although I'm agnostic and I don't study the Bible, I can now see how many people have become almost brainwashed. If it doesn't say something specifically and it doesn't say homosexuality is bad, then it's just religious big wigs from years ago. What I don't get is that if you believe and have so much faith in this God, why not actually try and study these topics on your own instead of letting people like Priests brainwash you. Maybe they're right, maybe you're wrong, but atleast try and learn everything you can before conforming to a religion, even Christianity. This means what the Priests tell you, and the truth.


I'm not going to debate this because I personally don't know a lot of anything thats in the Bible (Although I'm tempted to read it) but can you give us proof that it says this in Bible. I highly doubt the Bible mentions Pornography.


I'm not sure how right this theory is but since that is true, and since there is an Old and a New testament, people would have had the ability to change a few words here and there (More like a hell of a lot of words) and corrupt everything to their liking. I guess it takes an open mind and good grammar and vocabulary skills from Modern, Middle, and Old English, or whatever language it is written in.

Matthew 5:27-28 - "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

pornography would definitely come under this passage would you not think?

I have to chime in.

Does it bother anyone else when someone picks one little tiny sentence out of the thousands of pages and makes it seem like YOU'RE wrong because that ONE SENTENCE says so?

Just go ahead and disreguard everything else written as long as that sentence applies.

*sigh* Sorry. Just my opinion.

You missed what i meant. The word "bad" for example has had different meanings depending on what decade it was said. It has gone from meaning something isn't good to someing is good or whatever. So there is really no way for anyone to know what specific words meant at the time the bible was written, they may have used the word angel for just a really nice person or for a pretty woman or just about anything really. There is no way to know that because of the simple fact that people use different words to mean different things

why does the church oppose homosexuality?

firstly, the early church was trying to stand as different from the other religions, as well as convert people to christianity. one method chosen to stand different was to abolish all the old customs (and adopt and alter the rituals) of the people they were converting. so where does homosexuality fit into this? as a system that was built on a patriarchy, it had to instill rules that protected and ensured proper lineage. this is opposed to the open orgies of some of those they were out to convert. the "morals" of the church were then narrowly defined to protect said lineage and remove any of the old practices that challenged it.

a classic example of the dominance and control driven nature of the christian church.

What kind of "God" or Leader or President or Teacher " for that matter would have a issue with homosexuality????Thats a more appropriate question???? Who would beleive such nonsense???Why would all that is hate anypart of itself???Please don't try "god doesn't hate himself only dislikes the behavior""" What kind of God doesn't take responisibilty for his likes and dislikes while we are at it??? Namaste Sheri

No offense taken, but i find your post odd.. I have read every post in this topic, and my comment there had nothing to do withy any of them, i was stating my own opinion.

I would have to disagree. The actions of male homosexuality are described. The word "homosexual" is rather a modern one, and wouldn't have been used simply since the word never existed. If the Bible admonished against kicking and hitting others with your fists or other objects, would you then say that it wasn't referring to fighting, because the word "fighting" wasn't used? I think not. The "seed on the ground" thingy, was the fact that Onan refused to make his disceased brother's widow pregnant so she could have an heir to property . . . which he was required to do according to Jewish law. His "spilling his seed on the ground" says that he was pretending to attempt to obey the law, but in fact had no intention of doing so. Nothing sinful about it at all . . . he was just a lawbreaker, i.e., criminal. His crimes were pretending to obey the law, and not obeying the law. It is absurd that theologians took this to mean that masturbation was sinful, or any "spilling of seed" was sinful. It would be akin to having a law forbidding the salting of a neighbor's field (destroying it's crop growing capacity), and then interpreting that law in such a way as to make mere weeping sinful (after all, salt is produced in tears).

Where do you get this tripe from? I've alread gone over the supposed homosexual issue, but pre-marital sex (which I've also gone over before) is not even an issue there, and pronography is nowhere in the entire Bible. The quote you've given is not talking about pornogrpahy at all, it's talking about desire for someone else when you're already married. Note the word ADULTERY.

Tell me this, if Solomon with his harem of 700 wives and 300 comcubines wasn't watching some form of 'pornography' then what was he doing with them? Having a big friendly picnic? 'Adultery' is frowned upon yes, and up until recently it was (here anyway) against the law, and grounds to take your ex spouse to the cleaners, but still in context of the time it was in there were people having several spouses - at one time - marriage was not not deemed by legal document, and divorce was commonplace and entirely legal.



Thanks Raven. Alot of texts have been taken out of context (even by priests). Yes words have be changed, but that's why you go to the original texts, the original language if you have to, to find out what it actually meant. Most people it seems don't try to find out for themselves.



You've made an excellent point. Along with the fact that the original 'Bible' literally called 'the Word' because it conatined no punctuation, spaces, or verese and literally was one very long word so it couldn't be altered in any way, the other 'rule' when reading these texts was that you cannot just pick a sentence out, you have to read the whole thing and understand what context it's written in.

Larry,

Again, I'm going to point out the word 'homosexual' is not used, and the act it's talking about was and is done by both homosexuals and heterosexuals. Like I've also pointed out before, God made everyone, homosexuals included. If homosexuality was so 'unnatural' animals wouldn't do it (and they do, hell, my Samyoed was a good example of that ) and people would not be born with the gene that causes homosexuality. And like I've also said before, what about hermaphrodites? No matter which sex they choose they're still in some way having a 'homosexual relationship'.

Which is a question I pose to P.A., do you believe God didn't make hermaphrodites? Were they some spawn of satan because they are different? I don't think so.

On top of all this, the Bible was not made to be a book of condemnation and an opportunity for people to pass judgement. I don't know how many times that it specifically states that 'man was not made for judgement'.

That could also mean having any sexual attraction or desire is adultery and thus a sin. I can bet almost anything that even the most "Pure" of people cannot completely surpress their hormones. Atleast I know males can't. So because of this, that is a completely pointless passage.

And who is I? The writer of this passage or the person who actually said it. Who are they?