If God is all-knowing, how can free will exist? If free will truly exists, can God really be all-knowing?

spiritual thoughts> you can freely choose what to do as long as you choose like god says\teaches.
skeptics thoughts> i dont believe in godanyway so who cares if hes all knowing.

actualy what does free will have to do with all knowing? if your all knowing and think logicaly, then you will select the best choice by your own free will, or are you impleying that gods\bibles teachings are wrong
(to which i agree, but dont see the point to try prove to anybody)?
anyway i believe that all religions are created to manipulate people and gain power, so its common sense that they wouldnt have free will.

Iaapac I think to the first part of the question that in the realm of the absolute (non linear) God is all knowing and free will My reasoning is God is love and the greatest gift of love is Free will because the true nature of love is it has no requirenments it is freedom defined to truly love means to allow things to be. also I define God as energy of many forms and infinite possibility All that is. the second part of the question I address within the confines of a dualistic Realm so no there isn't truly free will or a God that grants it Religon is about a God with needs a human construct there would be choice but no freedom to choose because the choices are predetermined if this makes sense, Thats my opinion, Namaste Sheri

Sherri, as the old saying goes "That's close enough for government work!"

repost of what i said in the other thread:

Free will exists because the Absolute is profoundly unknowable to itself!

The Gods are all-knowing in their own sphere of existence, which is proportional in each one of them!

"Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows." (Luke 12:6-7)

This all-knowing God has not provided for the type of self-expression that you express, Sheri. Time and again there are commentaries about His absolute knowledge of all things, past, present and future.

Rather than the gift of love providing us with a variety of choices, these references have us as the puppets and God pulling the strings.

what?

Iaapac there is that place that I have found inside me I agree this world hardly allows for the love I talk of but I try to find ways to honor it and express it especially in the moments I can't especially those moments, I think its all in
perspective turn anything into the best thing look for the perfection in things Iapaac beleive me many people those that adpre me brush me off as unrealistic I need to grow up, but the way i see it i hold onto this ideal for all of us for all of mankind. i think there are realms we know nothing about or maybe I'm wrong I don't care any more if I'm right or of I'm wrong I've decided the way I beleive is a pretty awesome way to live and in the end I think thats what counts what do you think??? Namaste sheri

Of course there can be freewill. Knowing an outcome and being the cause of the outcome are completely different things. For example, imagine I tape the footy this weekend. Someone tells me the score before I get to watch it. So I know the score, I know the vital plays, I know who does what, but I'm not in control of that, right?

It's not a great example, but in a similar way, God who lives outside of time knows all: past, present, future. He is not responsible for things we do anymore tahn I am responsible for a footy game.

Regards,

Does that make sense

Okay I kind of thought the same as Amal-"What?"

But to answer the question is like this free will is something God gave us. He knows that each of us is different and some will not go to him for direction. Although this may seem weird to you God trys to show himself to everyone and he knows taht some aren't going to be his servants. He cannot make us be his servants he can only hope that giving us this free will will make us come to the right conclusions. Usually before someone dies they find religion and if it is God then it is him. But sometimes the Devil might decieve the people so much that they think all gods are one true God.

Sheri, to live a dream is a thousand times better than to dream of life. Most people are lost in the limbo of indecision about themselves and their existence. If you have found yours, hold onto it. It will be your light through the dark corridors of life and I hope many others join me in admiring you for your self discovery.

But if you know the score, then all the players can do is conform and play to achieve that score. They have no other options and thus have no free will.

Iapaac,
Thankyou very much for your hearting my journey it means alot to me Namaste Sheri

Oh cool. So next time I tape the footy, I'm really controlling the outcome of the match. That makes sense

Sorry for the cynicism, but that sounds like what you're saying.

Regards,

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This is a common argument used against the claim that there can't be free will if God knows everything. You are correct when you say that, "...knowing an outcome and being the cause of the outcome are completely different things." However, the basic idea of free will is that it occurs without any connection to anything preceding it, so the whole, "If I go back in time and know what you're gonna do, it doesn't mean you don't have free will" is missing the point entirely. Besides, as I am about to mention, the 'taping the footy' analogy is misleading because it assumes that time is linear.

It seems like everything in the universe functions as the result of a set of natural laws, which can be expressed as mathematical equations. This is what physics is all about. Of course, the equations to describe particular phenomena we investigate are only accurate if;

1) we know all the factors (variables) that influence the phenomena we are investigating
2) we can measure all the variables accurately
3) we are intelligent enought to fit all the variables together in the correct combination

Now keep in mind that monotheitic religions assume that;

A: God is all poweful and all knowing, and
B: We have free will and if we make the right choices we will go to heaven after we die

Now, it would make sense that if God is all knowing then He would be aware of every last variable in the entire universe and know precisely how everything influences and affects everything else.

Unfortunately, free will states that since there is no cause, there is no way to predict the outcome, so God cannot know everything if we have free will! And one can't even use the argument about time-travel from before because it assumes that time is linear, (when in fact it is not) and it means that any choice we make will affect the universe in a different way to if we made a different choice. Time isn't like a railroad, more like a branching tree. Anyway, all this is good news for us and bad news for God.

On the other hand, if we dont have free will, and our thoughts and behaviour are really no more than the result of everything that precedes us, then that means we are bound by the natural laws of the universe just like everything else we can predict, and it means that God can then predict our behaviour. Which means He knows before we are even born what we will choose in our lives. This is bad news for us and good news for God.

In other words, it can be proven that any religion that is fundamentally based on the assumption that both 'A' and 'B' are true, are in fact wrong, because 'A' and 'B' are in fact mutually exclusive!

-sigh- More of this same arguement. I've argued this for pages and pages, topics and topics, all I'm going to say is state my opinion. If you want to know why this is my opinion look up other topics on the same subject.


Yes, God can be omnipotent while free-will exists. Someone's knowledge of something does not force you to do anything.





That is an unproven theory. Alot believe time does not exist. It is just a name we made up from the way we view things. So your arguement really isn't too solid.



Oh and welcome to UM.

i think i love you

Gods will = he has a will for his pupose to be fullfilled
free will= free to believe and want to be part of gods will

= doesnt that make sense do to we have a choice to believe him or not to follow him or not to etc.?
isnt that a choice we are given ?

argue that point - if we didnt have free will we would all be thinking the same worshiping the same god and not having any indifferences umong human race

does that help you?

It cannot be proved mathematically that there is free will.

It cannot be proved mathematically that there is no free will.

It cannot be proved mathematicaly that there is free will and no free will at the same time.

Ultimately there is no free will because their is no actor to experience that free will.

Of course, this means there is free will at the same time -- it's just that it's not real.

Everything is an illusion. www.ironghost.wordpress.com

Freewill

With respect to the mortal/Deific paradigm; The mortal is led to believe they have the right to make choices freely or of their own free will. However, regardless of that limited consciousness that makes the choice, if one is to subscribe to the god principle of omniscience )all knowing( , then no matter the choice, god is aware before it is consciously made by that mortal choice.

OR...

An all knowing (omniscient), ever present (omnipresent), all powerful (omnipotent), creator of everything (omni-genesis), could be a rendering of mortal clerical minds so as to impart to believers in their charge that there is a celestial parent always watching and ever aware! This leads one to become paranoid in imagining all is subject to judgment that will eventually gain one heaven or hell. Which then leads the thinking mortal to exercise their free will to ask themselves a question: If god is all this, why does "he" need fallible mortal communicators(clergy) to let us know he's there , much less the rules he demands we play by when he knows the game from start to finish!?

That's why religion is ascribed as faith and not intelligence!