Full Version: The Bible's Apocalypse
What do you guys think about The Bible's Apocalypse and when you hear the word Apocalypse? Does anyone fully understand whats really ganna happen when the "war" begains down here on earth?? PLEASE share thoughts and comments thanks
Read Revelations in the bible.
If you look at the percentage of the prophesies of the Bible that have actually come true, you can evaluate the content of Revelations and easily conclude that they were ramblings from the Isle of Pathmos probably from some visionary. There is no evidence that it was the same John who wrote the Book of John and the writing style is completely different.
Of all the books selected to be included in the Bible at the Council of Nicaea, the Book of John and Revelations were narrowly passed and later there was much criticism of their inclusion.
Of all the books selected to be included in the Bible at the Council of Nicaea, the Book of John and Revelations were narrowly passed and later there was much criticism of their inclusion.
QUOTE(soccerdvl18 @ Aug 13 2005, 06:35 PM)
What do you guys think about The Bible's Apocalypse and when you hear the word Apocalypse? Does anyone fully understand whats really ganna happen when the "war" begains down here on earth?? PLEASE share thoughts and comments thanks
[right][snapback]788437[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]788437[/snapback][/right]
Hi
First of all this is in the wrong place on the forums.
I would like to say in case you wonder, I do believe in God, but not a devil, hell is being devoid of god. And I do not consider all religious people extremists.
My opinion on "the apocalypse" is that it makes god look like an evil wrathful beast, and that it is an insult to our creator. People who are obsessed by the idea of god burning all the men, women, and children on earth, are a curse on humanity. I believe if the end of the world will happen, it will have nothing to do with God or "Satan" only to do with the fear mongers, and ignorant religious people that go about spreading this terror, in order to gain new members into there cult. If the apocalypse happens, it wont be because of a spiritual evil, it will be because of the human evil that is religious extremism and ignorance, and of those that go around spreading it to cause fear, if you look around the world fear is the number one cause of wars and suffering, and most of it is done in the name of so called religion, it creates hate that then creates more fear. The so called preachers that go around terrorising people with these ideas are spreading fear, I do not believe in the devil, but if anyone is spreading Satan’s plans, its those that spread fear and terror which always leads to hate. The devil in the devils history and mythology thrives on fear and hate, so its ironic that these so called godly people do nothing but spread hate and fear with there "revelations"…. Look at all the people who fear it, its a curse on them, they cant live a productive or happy life and its not surprising really is it, they live in constant fear.
God is not evil like religious extremists want you to believe, people who use this stuff to terrorise people into "repenting" are the spreaders of evil. Jesus spoke of false profits, if that is true the ones who obsess over fear are the ones he talks about.
The end of the world might happen, but only because people go around pushing there fears, hate and paranoia on each other. If dogmatic religion never existed, then most of the worlds problems and evils would vanish, and the threat of the end of the would become less likely.
Some of the people who obsess over the end of the world seem to will it to happen, and even pray for it.
This is not just true of Christianity, Muslim and Jewish theologians do it to.
This planet is gods school, where we all come to learn or to teach others, god in my belief has no desire to destroy it. Some humans however do.
All the best
Faeden
QUOTE(iaapac @ Aug 13 2005, 05:55 PM)
If you look at the percentage of the prophesies of the Bible that have actually come true, you can evaluate the content of Revelations and easily conclude that they were ramblings from the Isle of Pathmos probably from some visionary. There is no evidence that it was the same John who wrote the Book of John and the writing style is completely different.
Of all the books selected to be included in the Bible at the Council of Nicaea, the Book of John and Revelations were narrowly passed and later there was much criticism of their inclusion.
[right][snapback]788471[/snapback][/right]
Of all the books selected to be included in the Bible at the Council of Nicaea, the Book of John and Revelations were narrowly passed and later there was much criticism of their inclusion.
[right][snapback]788471[/snapback][/right]
The bible is hard to translate. Being orignally copied to Greek and then translated into Latin by hundreds of monks hand writing the bible, it's sufficent to say there may be errors in the original creation of it.
The relevations by John were shown to him by God, and thats what I believe, just like how any other person believes Nostradamus, and his prophecies, which did come true. What if you were to see the end of the world iaapac, 2000 years from now from still images , would you consciously be able to write a book regarding it, even though technology at that time would be so different ?. Revelations is a riddle to us, as it was a riddle to John himself, how could someone with such small technological concepts be able to witness and record the facts so that we today would be able to understand them.
QUOTE(iaapac @ Aug 13 2005, 01:55 PM)
If you look at the percentage of the prophesies of the Bible that have actually come true, you can evaluate the content of Revelations and easily conclude that they were ramblings from the Isle of Pathmos probably from some visionary. There is no evidence that it was the same John who wrote the Book of John and the writing style is completely different.
Of all the books selected to be included in the Bible at the Council of Nicaea, the Book of John and Revelations were narrowly passed and later there was much criticism of their inclusion.
[right][snapback]788471[/snapback][/right]
Of all the books selected to be included in the Bible at the Council of Nicaea, the Book of John and Revelations were narrowly passed and later there was much criticism of their inclusion.
[right][snapback]788471[/snapback][/right]
Hey, Iaapac. Where did you get this information? I am not saying you are wrong. It just intrigues me when someone talks about things like that and I was wondering how you knew. Yeah, I grew up in churches all my life and have come to a place now where I am believe in God and am a Christian....but I don't believe in religion. And it frustrates me to no end to find out how little I know about the actual history of the bible and things like that. Do you have links to websites or book references?
QUOTE(Faeden @ Aug 13 2005, 02:07 PM)
QUOTE(soccerdvl18 @ Aug 13 2005, 06:35 PM)
What do you guys think about The Bible's Apocalypse and when you hear the word Apocalypse? Does anyone fully understand whats really ganna happen when the "war" begains down here on earth?? PLEASE share thoughts and comments thanks
[right][snapback]788437[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]788437[/snapback][/right]
Hi
First of all this is in the wrong place on the forums.
I would like to say in case you wonder, I do believe in God, but not a devil, hell is being devoid of god. And I do not consider all religious people extremists.
My opinion on "the apocalypse" is that it makes god look like an evil wrathful beast, and that it is an insult to our creator. People who are obsessed by the idea of god burning all the men, women, and children on earth, are a curse on humanity. I believe if the end of the world will happen, it will have nothing to do with God or "Satan" only to do with the fear mongers, and ignorant religious people that go about spreading this terror, in order to gain new members into there cult. If the apocalypse happens, it wont be because of a spiritual evil, it will be because of the human evil that is religious extremism and ignorance, and of those that go around spreading it to cause fear, if you look around the world fear is the number one cause of wars and suffering, and most of it is done in the name of so called religion, it creates hate that then creates more fear. The so called preachers that go around terrorizing people with these ideas are spreading fear, I do not believe in the devil, but if anyone is spreading Satan’s plans, its those that spread fear and terror which always leads to hate. The devil in the devils history and mythology thrives on fear and hate, so its ironic that these so called godly people do nothing but spread hate and fear with there "revelations"…. Look at all the people who fear it, its a curse on them, they cant live a productive or happy life and its not surprising really is it, they live in constant fear.
God is not evil like religious extremists want you to believe, people who use this stuff to terrorize people into "repenting" are the spreaders of evil. Jesus spoke of false profits, if that is true the ones who obsess over fear are the ones he talks about.
The end of the world might happen, but only because people go around pushing there fears, hate and paranoia on each other. If dogmatic religion never existed, then most of the worlds problems and evils would vanish, and the threat of the end of the would become less likely.
Some of the people who obsess over the end of the world seem to will it to happen, and even pray for it.
This is not just true of Christianity, Muslim and Jewish theologians do it to.
This planet is gods school, where we all come to learn or to teach others, god in my belief has no desire to destroy it. Some humans however do.
All the best
Faeden
[right][snapback]788502[/snapback][/right]
Faeden,
Yet again....wonderful post. I agree too that this is the wrong place for it but this is a great topic.
I don't believe everything you do but I think the way you post your beliefs is really great. Respectful and intelligent.
I can see your point and agree with you on a few things though. And heck, who is to say who is right or wrong and I am here, with an open mind, to learn.
Having grown up in southern baptist churches I heard Revelation preached more times than I care to think about. Saw all those movies about it that were put out YEARS before the "Left behind" series and put them to shame on the fear quotient.
But, I finally came to realize that is doesn't matter how we believe. Either it IS going to happen or it ISN'T going to happen. Either way, there is not much we can do to stop it if it does happen and if it is in fact something that God allows to happen.
I get sick to death about hearing people say "we are living in the last days!" I knew a preacher who was absolutely convinced that the end of the world would happen in his lifetime. He is still alive...but if it doesn't happen soon, he is going on to heaven before the end of the world. People have believed this was the "end times" since Jesus went back to heaven!
Of course, then there is the religious debate over if Christians will be raptured before or after the tribulation on earth. I have been to churches that believe both. Me...again, it doesn't really matter. If I am still alive and if it happens...there isn't anything I can do to stop it.
And then there are the Christians who think they can PRAY AWAY the anti christ and the end of the world. Of course, these are the same people you will hear end their messages with "Even so, come Lord quickly."
I am not religious. I know what I believe but I don't go around preaching it to everyone. I know the damage people like Pat Robertson and the 700 Club have done and the radical christians who believe that if you aren't on some war path then you aren't really saved.
I know I would probably be considered a heretic but I don't completely believe the bible. Oh I believe the basics and such. But a book that has been around as long as it has and has been translated so many times by religious zealots who thought they had an inside handle on God or people who just wanted to make sure that everyone else did what THEY thought they should be doing in the sight of God - I cant believe that it hasn't been tampered with.
I came to the conclusion a few years ago that I don't need the church, the bible, or a preacher to help me have a relationship with God.
But now I am off topic. LOL!
Anyway, to make a long post even longer.......what difference does it make. If it happens....it happens.
LOL!
Hi Maryjo
Thanks for your kind words, its nice not to have someone be mad at me when talking about this stuff LOL
You know we have religious channels here in the UK, and some of the shows are Christian extremist ones, I watch and I listen to them preaching of a loving god, all the while punching there podiums, and screaming in anger at the church goers, some of them are so angry when talking there faces go bright red. I do not find what they say scary, I find the fact that there are people like that out there scary, I find my self feeling sorry for Jesus. The man in my opinion came here to teach love, tolerance, and understanding, and to guide people away from hate and evil. When I see these type of people brainwashing kids and preaching fear, anger and hate to people in the name if Jesus, I almost want apologise to Jesus in person if it where possible, because it must be embarrassing and sad for him.
I have a lot of Christian friends and family, and non of them are extreme in anyway, although they will tell me about there beliefs if I ask, and if they disagree with mine and leave it at that, none of them are angry people, none of the hate me, or think I am evil, which is all good spiritual beliefs are something that should be personal to the person, which is what we all agree on.
Yes they do it because they think Jesus or god is wrathful, and they do it to save there souls before its two late as I am sure you will already know.
I believe personally that Jesus died because a bunch of evil jealous Aholes murdered him, not because it was destiny to save all of our souls. I do not believe he is coming back, and even if he did it would not be in a wrathful way, but to correct the people that twist his good teachings, and it would be in a way most would not even realise that he had even come back, can you imagine if the real Jesus came back to earth? He would have the worst stalker problem in mans history, he would have a billion times worse problem than Elvis did.
I know your a Christian and will have different beliefs to me, but Jesus dying on the cross to me was a symbol of giving, it was not literally an act of saving man kind, because that would have ment that all humans before Christ all went to hell. To me it was the ultimate symbol of giving, it represents to me an example that giving to others is the ultimate good someone can do, Jesus giving his life was symbolic of just that, he gave is life. All the cruelty and evil that was done to him, he never once hated, and nor did he judge those that did evil to him. I think Jesus’ death and how he dealt with it teaches things that we all need to recognise more now than ever, being the type of world we now live in today.
I believe the bible is just a set of stories written by men, its a guide to guide people in there everyday lives, I believe it has both good things in it, and bad things in it. A book that was written by a divine being would not be responsible for so much suffering, and war in the world, so based on that I have to believe its not gods word but the work of men that seeked to control there public. I do not believe the bible was ever supposed to be taken literally, not to say that the belief in Jesus as being the son of god and all of its main principles where not supposed to be taken literally, but you cant believe everything that is in it as literal, I wish more people would understand that. I am no bible expert, but if you took everything in the bible as literal then the world would not work, it would be like the middle ages and dark ages. The bible should be treated as a guide on good morals, not a absolute how to live your life.
I believe in Jesus as a important spiritual figure, but not the son of god, as I believe we are all the sons and daughters of god, its just that Jesus was one of the best.
I hope that made sense...
All the best
Faeden
Thanks for your kind words, its nice not to have someone be mad at me when talking about this stuff LOL
You know we have religious channels here in the UK, and some of the shows are Christian extremist ones, I watch and I listen to them preaching of a loving god, all the while punching there podiums, and screaming in anger at the church goers, some of them are so angry when talking there faces go bright red. I do not find what they say scary, I find the fact that there are people like that out there scary, I find my self feeling sorry for Jesus. The man in my opinion came here to teach love, tolerance, and understanding, and to guide people away from hate and evil. When I see these type of people brainwashing kids and preaching fear, anger and hate to people in the name if Jesus, I almost want apologise to Jesus in person if it where possible, because it must be embarrassing and sad for him.
I have a lot of Christian friends and family, and non of them are extreme in anyway, although they will tell me about there beliefs if I ask, and if they disagree with mine and leave it at that, none of them are angry people, none of the hate me, or think I am evil, which is all good spiritual beliefs are something that should be personal to the person, which is what we all agree on.
QUOTE
I get sick to death about hearing people say "we are living in the last days!" I knew a preacher who was absolutely convinced that the end of the world would happen in his lifetime. He is still alive...but if it doesn't happen soon, he is going on to heaven before the end of the world. People have believed this was the "end times" since Jesus went back to heaven!
Yes they do it because they think Jesus or god is wrathful, and they do it to save there souls before its two late as I am sure you will already know.
I believe personally that Jesus died because a bunch of evil jealous Aholes murdered him, not because it was destiny to save all of our souls. I do not believe he is coming back, and even if he did it would not be in a wrathful way, but to correct the people that twist his good teachings, and it would be in a way most would not even realise that he had even come back, can you imagine if the real Jesus came back to earth? He would have the worst stalker problem in mans history, he would have a billion times worse problem than Elvis did.
I know your a Christian and will have different beliefs to me, but Jesus dying on the cross to me was a symbol of giving, it was not literally an act of saving man kind, because that would have ment that all humans before Christ all went to hell. To me it was the ultimate symbol of giving, it represents to me an example that giving to others is the ultimate good someone can do, Jesus giving his life was symbolic of just that, he gave is life. All the cruelty and evil that was done to him, he never once hated, and nor did he judge those that did evil to him. I think Jesus’ death and how he dealt with it teaches things that we all need to recognise more now than ever, being the type of world we now live in today.
QUOTE
I know I would probably be considered a heretic but I don't completely believe the bible. Oh I believe the basics and such. But a book that has been around as long as it has and has been translated so many times by religious zealots who thought they had an inside handle on God or people who just wanted to make sure that everyone else did what THEY thought they should be doing in the sight of God - I cant believe that it hasn't been tampered with.
I believe the bible is just a set of stories written by men, its a guide to guide people in there everyday lives, I believe it has both good things in it, and bad things in it. A book that was written by a divine being would not be responsible for so much suffering, and war in the world, so based on that I have to believe its not gods word but the work of men that seeked to control there public. I do not believe the bible was ever supposed to be taken literally, not to say that the belief in Jesus as being the son of god and all of its main principles where not supposed to be taken literally, but you cant believe everything that is in it as literal, I wish more people would understand that. I am no bible expert, but if you took everything in the bible as literal then the world would not work, it would be like the middle ages and dark ages. The bible should be treated as a guide on good morals, not a absolute how to live your life.
I believe in Jesus as a important spiritual figure, but not the son of god, as I believe we are all the sons and daughters of god, its just that Jesus was one of the best.
I hope that made sense...
All the best
Faeden
Mary Jo 1975 (if that's your birthdate I've got things in my refrigerator older than you!)
Dr. Barry Smith of the Atlanta Baptist University did an excellent study of Revelations and its author. You will also find valuable references in Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions by TW Doane.
Dr. Barry Smith of the Atlanta Baptist University did an excellent study of Revelations and its author. You will also find valuable references in Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions by TW Doane.
Oh yes, you make sense to me.
First off. I am not sure why some preachers feel the need to scream and yell. I used to go to a church like that. I have seen men get all sweaty and snotty and spitty. LOL! The message is the same whether they scream it or speak it. There is one man, dont know if you have heard about him or not but he is pretty popular here in America. His name is Jesse Duplantis. His whole ministry is basically humor, love, fun, acceptance. I love him. LOL! He doesnt really TRY to be funny but people cant help just laughing through his sermons. I have receieved personal emails from him and his wife during a really tough time in my life when I left some prayer requests on their website. I was REALLY impressed with that. And usually his sermons are just on LOVE! Loving everyone no matter what. Thats was Jesus taught so that is what we should do!
I dont remember any story in the bible that says and "Jesus SCREAMED...." A lot of times I think it is just a way for some preachers to make themselves seem more important than they really are.
You are right. Jesus dying on the cross was an act of giving. We might differ when it comes to what we believe he was giving but you are absolutely correct in that statement and I agree 100%. I am sure you know this but I was always taught that when Jesus died he went to hell. Or basically purgatory. Which is supposedly where everyone went when they died up to this point. (Now, I am not Catholic so if my use of the word purgatory is wrong please forgive me.) They didnt go to heaven or hell...just to this place of waiting. When Jesus died he went there and fought satan for the key to the kingdom (although I am still unsure why satan even HAD the keys to the kingdom and whose kingdom exactly it was....heaven, hell, earth....or all of it.) Of course he won and then he lead everyone there out of purgatory and I guess he took them to heaven. I get lost here too because in my religion we are taught that you have to ask Jesus to come into your heart and be your saviour and forgive you of your sins and then you can go to heaven. So I dont know if all those people had to do the same thing or if they just got to go to heaven just because they were there.
I am not even sure if all these people were being tormented there like in a "hell" setting. The only reason I bring that up is because I did props one time for this HUGH production our city used to put on every year. A couple of churches were involved and this turned out to be the last year it was done. But it was about Jesus and covered his life from birth to going back to heaven. Anyway, in this play after he dies he goes to where all these people are waiting. He fights satan for these keys and then he takes everyone out of their chains they were bound in. So I guess by that it would mean that until that point, everyone who died went to hell! But Jesus came and took them out. Oh lord! I am confused now. LOL!!! But that would make your theory correct....just doesnt explain why.
Anyway as for Jesus never "sinning". Yeah, I believe that I suppose. But for one thing. When he goes into the temple and sees the money changes and so on. He turns everything upside down and chases everyone out. He DOES yell at them then. So....did he do all that WITHOUT being angry? If not does that mean that anger isnt a sin or what? Of course, I dont like to think about things like this because, well, that might turn my little box of beliefs upside down!
Well, the bible says Jesus is coming back. And I can totally see where those who dont believe all this gets that idea from. The bible does make God out to sound very angry and vengefull and whatever. So it is hard to beleive all of this. Because if and when Jesus does come back that is supposed to be the end of the world and the destruction of the earth and everyone who isnt "saved" as well as satan and such.
Oh man....I have been told that when God is going to destroy the heavens and the earth. Then He is going to rebuild them and that is when we all come down from heaven to live with God and Jesus on earth.
WHY would we want to leave heaven? Why come back to "earth"? And if that is the case....what is to stop all this stuff from happening again?
This could be a never ending conversation. LOL!
But I also had the thought the other day about Satan and how he was banished from heaven for wanting to take over and whatever. Yet I have always been told that angels dont have free will. And supposedly satan was an angel. An angel of music. (I was watching the the Phantom of the Opera yesterday and after hearing "angel of music" so many times this thought popped into my head. LOL) So, if he WAS an angel....and angels dont have free will....HOW did all this happen?? LOL!
I dont sound like someone who has been in church all my life do I? LOL! Maybe I wasnt paying attention. But I think it is more along the lines of this is stuff they dont want us to consider.
If you dont blindly accept and believe then you are being "deceived"....maybe even demon possessed or oppressed. LOL! And well, you know us little sheep dont want to be labled any of THAT! LOL! So we dont question anything.
I believe that God and Jesus are who the bible says they are. Not because "the bible tells me so" but because of, well, personal experience. And I believe God created the earth and everything in it and man and everything else. But I have to say, the older I get the more I just cant believe everything the bible or any preacher has to say.
First off. I am not sure why some preachers feel the need to scream and yell. I used to go to a church like that. I have seen men get all sweaty and snotty and spitty. LOL! The message is the same whether they scream it or speak it. There is one man, dont know if you have heard about him or not but he is pretty popular here in America. His name is Jesse Duplantis. His whole ministry is basically humor, love, fun, acceptance. I love him. LOL! He doesnt really TRY to be funny but people cant help just laughing through his sermons. I have receieved personal emails from him and his wife during a really tough time in my life when I left some prayer requests on their website. I was REALLY impressed with that. And usually his sermons are just on LOVE! Loving everyone no matter what. Thats was Jesus taught so that is what we should do!
I dont remember any story in the bible that says and "Jesus SCREAMED...." A lot of times I think it is just a way for some preachers to make themselves seem more important than they really are.
You are right. Jesus dying on the cross was an act of giving. We might differ when it comes to what we believe he was giving but you are absolutely correct in that statement and I agree 100%. I am sure you know this but I was always taught that when Jesus died he went to hell. Or basically purgatory. Which is supposedly where everyone went when they died up to this point. (Now, I am not Catholic so if my use of the word purgatory is wrong please forgive me.) They didnt go to heaven or hell...just to this place of waiting. When Jesus died he went there and fought satan for the key to the kingdom (although I am still unsure why satan even HAD the keys to the kingdom and whose kingdom exactly it was....heaven, hell, earth....or all of it.) Of course he won and then he lead everyone there out of purgatory and I guess he took them to heaven. I get lost here too because in my religion we are taught that you have to ask Jesus to come into your heart and be your saviour and forgive you of your sins and then you can go to heaven. So I dont know if all those people had to do the same thing or if they just got to go to heaven just because they were there.
I am not even sure if all these people were being tormented there like in a "hell" setting. The only reason I bring that up is because I did props one time for this HUGH production our city used to put on every year. A couple of churches were involved and this turned out to be the last year it was done. But it was about Jesus and covered his life from birth to going back to heaven. Anyway, in this play after he dies he goes to where all these people are waiting. He fights satan for these keys and then he takes everyone out of their chains they were bound in. So I guess by that it would mean that until that point, everyone who died went to hell! But Jesus came and took them out. Oh lord! I am confused now. LOL!!! But that would make your theory correct....just doesnt explain why.
Anyway as for Jesus never "sinning". Yeah, I believe that I suppose. But for one thing. When he goes into the temple and sees the money changes and so on. He turns everything upside down and chases everyone out. He DOES yell at them then. So....did he do all that WITHOUT being angry? If not does that mean that anger isnt a sin or what? Of course, I dont like to think about things like this because, well, that might turn my little box of beliefs upside down!
Well, the bible says Jesus is coming back. And I can totally see where those who dont believe all this gets that idea from. The bible does make God out to sound very angry and vengefull and whatever. So it is hard to beleive all of this. Because if and when Jesus does come back that is supposed to be the end of the world and the destruction of the earth and everyone who isnt "saved" as well as satan and such.
Oh man....I have been told that when God is going to destroy the heavens and the earth. Then He is going to rebuild them and that is when we all come down from heaven to live with God and Jesus on earth.
WHY would we want to leave heaven? Why come back to "earth"? And if that is the case....what is to stop all this stuff from happening again? This could be a never ending conversation. LOL!
But I also had the thought the other day about Satan and how he was banished from heaven for wanting to take over and whatever. Yet I have always been told that angels dont have free will. And supposedly satan was an angel. An angel of music. (I was watching the the Phantom of the Opera yesterday and after hearing "angel of music" so many times this thought popped into my head. LOL) So, if he WAS an angel....and angels dont have free will....HOW did all this happen?? LOL!
I dont sound like someone who has been in church all my life do I? LOL! Maybe I wasnt paying attention. But I think it is more along the lines of this is stuff they dont want us to consider.
If you dont blindly accept and believe then you are being "deceived"....maybe even demon possessed or oppressed. LOL! And well, you know us little sheep dont want to be labled any of THAT! LOL! So we dont question anything.
I believe that God and Jesus are who the bible says they are. Not because "the bible tells me so" but because of, well, personal experience. And I believe God created the earth and everything in it and man and everything else. But I have to say, the older I get the more I just cant believe everything the bible or any preacher has to say.
QUOTE(iaapac @ Aug 13 2005, 03:51 PM)
Mary Jo 1975 (if that's your birthdate I've got things in my refrigerator older than you!)
Dr. Barry Smith of the Atlanta Baptist University did an excellent study of Revelations and its author. You will also find valuable references in Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions by TW Doane.
[right][snapback]788658[/snapback][/right]
Dr. Barry Smith of the Atlanta Baptist University did an excellent study of Revelations and its author. You will also find valuable references in Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions by TW Doane.
[right][snapback]788658[/snapback][/right]
I am going to be 30 in a few months. That is no where near YOUNG! LOL! And if you have stuff older than 30 years in your fridge then I think it is time to do some cleaning! LOL!!
Anyway, this was done by a baptist?? I cant imagine anyone associated with anything baptist said or did anything that strayed from the accepted norm when it comes to the bible and religion. But I will research it. I am really interested. I grew up in baptist churches. They always made it out to seem like the bible was 100% inspired by God. Like someone was sitting down and taking notation from God's mouth. I never realized until a few years ago maybe that some of it might be.....well.....not completely accurate.
I have been through a lot of stuff in my life that has made it difficult at best to stack christianity up against. What I have been through has made it hard to believe a lot of the things I have been taught since I was born. Maybe that is why I am still searching for something that makes sense.
QUOTE(maryjo1975 @ Aug 13 2005, 08:00 PM)
Oh yes, you make sense to me.
First off. I am not sure why some preachers feel the need to scream and yell. I used to go to a church like that. I have seen men get all sweaty and snotty and spitty. LOL! The message is the same whether they scream it or speak it. There is one man, dont know if you have heard about him or not but he is pretty popular here in America. His name is Jesse Duplantis. His whole ministry is basically humor, love, fun, acceptance. I love him. LOL! He doesnt really TRY to be funny but people cant help just laughing through his sermons. I have receieved personal emails from him and his wife during a really tough time in my life when I left some prayer requests on their website. I was REALLY impressed with that. And usually his sermons are just on LOVE! Loving everyone no matter what. Thats was Jesus taught so that is what we should do!
I dont remember any story in the bible that says and "Jesus SCREAMED...." A lot of times I think it is just a way for some preachers to make themselves seem more important than they really are.
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First off. I am not sure why some preachers feel the need to scream and yell. I used to go to a church like that. I have seen men get all sweaty and snotty and spitty. LOL! The message is the same whether they scream it or speak it. There is one man, dont know if you have heard about him or not but he is pretty popular here in America. His name is Jesse Duplantis. His whole ministry is basically humor, love, fun, acceptance. I love him. LOL! He doesnt really TRY to be funny but people cant help just laughing through his sermons. I have receieved personal emails from him and his wife during a really tough time in my life when I left some prayer requests on their website. I was REALLY impressed with that. And usually his sermons are just on LOVE! Loving everyone no matter what. Thats was Jesus taught so that is what we should do!
I dont remember any story in the bible that says and "Jesus SCREAMED...." A lot of times I think it is just a way for some preachers to make themselves seem more important than they really are.
[right][snapback]788673[/snapback][/right]
I beleive you are talking about pastors and or jehovah witnesses. Roman Catholic ( The world's largest christian community ) do not sit on podiums saying " hallelujah, hallelujah, praise be to Jesus, and hold there hands up and clap, and sing songs". We hold sermons, in which silence is preferred, the priest / bishop reads from the bible, and blesses the community. Meeting concludes with the the Eucharist and communion.
Faeden: My opinion on "the apocalypse" is that it makes god look like an evil wrathful beast, and that it is an insult to our creator. People who are obsessed by the idea of god burning all the men, women, and children on earth, are a curse on humanity.
And have you not read the story of Noah in the Old Testament?
From Genesis 6 (NIV):
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
If it happened once, what is not to say that it might well happen again. That is if you believe that the Old Testament is indeed the "Word of God". (I don't, BTW, so I am not all that worried that "God" will smite us. His followers may well do so, however!)
And have you not read the story of Noah in the Old Testament?
From Genesis 6 (NIV):
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
If it happened once, what is not to say that it might well happen again. That is if you believe that the Old Testament is indeed the "Word of God". (I don't, BTW, so I am not all that worried that "God" will smite us. His followers may well do so, however!)
Hi maryjo1975
Its a shame more Christians are not more like your self. You have a very tolerant and respectful attitude
You make some good points too, ones many Christians are told not to think about, its very brave of you. I believe you can still be a strong Christian and be tolerant, your proof of that.
I not heard of him no, but its a shame more do not recognise that Jesus was supposed to be about love and not sweat, snot, and spit, peoples fears cause them to act that way. To them the whole world is evil, and they are angry at it, its a shame because from what I have learned negative spirits feed on negative emotions and energies, and these people are some of the most negative people around. I wish more preachers where like Jesse Duplantis.
I do not believe being angry is a sin, being angry is a natural feeling, its how you deal with anger that is the real test. Jesus was human after all, the difference is Jesus did not go and kick anyone’s head in because he was annoyed. One of the biggest tests in life I believe is learning how to accept your negative emotions, and not to act on them, and to walk away from hate and anger. To walk away from anger and hate is to walk away from evil.
Free will and the bible confuses me too, on one hand Christianity preaches we all have free will, then on the other hand it says that Satan is constantly trying to temp us, and to do bad and evil things, so when you do something evil you can blame Satan, and take the responsibility away from your self, where is the free will in that? If you use the devil as a scapegoat every time you mess up, how do you have free will? And like you say angels are not supposed to have free will, so how can you make the decision to rebel if that is true ?
Well it seems like you spotted the contradictions, and that you are the questioning type, some churches do not like the questioning types, it makes them uncomfortable, but good on you for questioning things.
Yes this is the catch 22 situation some people find them selves in, its like a vicious circle. They can listen to logic, but that logic could be Satan tempting them away from god, so they vow to just blindly believe, then if they again start to see logic in what they are being told, again its Satan tricking them, they become spiritually paranoid, its very destructive because its like a state of confusion. They find it safer to just not question anything they are told and just to go along with it.
I believe that even if Jesus was to be the son of god, he cares not what one believes, but how one treats others around them. Who you are is based on how you are, not what you believe.
Your a good person Maryjo I pray that more people might think like you.
All the best
Faeden
Its a shame more Christians are not more like your self. You have a very tolerant and respectful attitude
You make some good points too, ones many Christians are told not to think about, its very brave of you. I believe you can still be a strong Christian and be tolerant, your proof of that.QUOTE
First off. I am not sure why some preachers feel the need to scream and yell. I used to go to a church like that. I have seen men get all sweaty and snotty and spitty. LOL! The message is the same whether they scream it or speak it. There is one man, dont know if you have heard about him or not but he is pretty popular here in America. His name is Jesse Duplantis. His whole ministry is basically humor, love, fun, acceptance. I love him. LOL! He doesnt really TRY to be funny but people cant help just laughing through his sermons. I have receieved personal emails from him and his wife during a really tough time in my life when I left some prayer requests on their website. I was REALLY impressed with that. And usually his sermons are just on LOVE! Loving everyone no matter what. Thats was Jesus taught so that is what we should do!
I not heard of him no, but its a shame more do not recognise that Jesus was supposed to be about love and not sweat, snot, and spit, peoples fears cause them to act that way. To them the whole world is evil, and they are angry at it, its a shame because from what I have learned negative spirits feed on negative emotions and energies, and these people are some of the most negative people around. I wish more preachers where like Jesse Duplantis.
QUOTE
Anyway as for Jesus never "sinning". Yeah, I believe that I suppose. But for one thing. When he goes into the temple and sees the money changes and so on. He turns everything upside down and chases everyone out. He DOES yell at them then. So....did he do all that WITHOUT being angry? If not does that mean that anger isnt a sin or what? Of course, I dont like to think about things like this because, well, that might turn my little box of beliefs upside down!
I do not believe being angry is a sin, being angry is a natural feeling, its how you deal with anger that is the real test. Jesus was human after all, the difference is Jesus did not go and kick anyone’s head in because he was annoyed. One of the biggest tests in life I believe is learning how to accept your negative emotions, and not to act on them, and to walk away from hate and anger. To walk away from anger and hate is to walk away from evil.
QUOTE
But I also had the thought the other day about Satan and how he was banished from heaven for wanting to take over and whatever. Yet I have always been told that angels dont have free will. And supposedly satan was an angel. An angel of music. (I was watching the the Phantom of the Opera yesterday and after hearing "angel of music" so many times this thought popped into my head. LOL) So, if he WAS an angel....and angels dont have free will....HOW did all this happen?? LOL!
Free will and the bible confuses me too, on one hand Christianity preaches we all have free will, then on the other hand it says that Satan is constantly trying to temp us, and to do bad and evil things, so when you do something evil you can blame Satan, and take the responsibility away from your self, where is the free will in that? If you use the devil as a scapegoat every time you mess up, how do you have free will? And like you say angels are not supposed to have free will, so how can you make the decision to rebel if that is true ?
QUOTE
I dont sound like someone who has been in church all my life do I? LOL! Maybe I wasnt paying attention. But I think it is more along the lines of this is stuff they dont want us to consider.
Well it seems like you spotted the contradictions, and that you are the questioning type, some churches do not like the questioning types, it makes them uncomfortable, but good on you for questioning things.
QUOTE
If you dont blindly accept and believe then you are being "deceived"....maybe even demon possessed or oppressed. LOL! And well, you know us little sheep dont want to be labled any of THAT! LOL! So we dont question anything.
Yes this is the catch 22 situation some people find them selves in, its like a vicious circle. They can listen to logic, but that logic could be Satan tempting them away from god, so they vow to just blindly believe, then if they again start to see logic in what they are being told, again its Satan tricking them, they become spiritually paranoid, its very destructive because its like a state of confusion. They find it safer to just not question anything they are told and just to go along with it.
I believe that even if Jesus was to be the son of god, he cares not what one believes, but how one treats others around them. Who you are is based on how you are, not what you believe.
Your a good person Maryjo I pray that more people might think like you.
All the best
Faeden
Hi Larry
Yes, but I do not believe the OT or the NT to be based on reality. I do not believe the end of the world has happened before, I dont believe in Noah's flood.
I was talking about how I believe that the end of the world if it happens will happen because of those that are praying for it and almost willing it to happen, man will be responsible for the end of the world, not a devil or god. I don't have spiritual belief in the bible.
All the best
Faeden
QUOTE
If it happened once, what is not to say that it might well happen again. That is if you believe that the Old Testament is indeed the "Word of God". (I don't, BTW, so I am not all that worried that "God" will smite us. His followers may well do so, however!)
Yes, but I do not believe the OT or the NT to be based on reality. I do not believe the end of the world has happened before, I dont believe in Noah's flood.
I was talking about how I believe that the end of the world if it happens will happen because of those that are praying for it and almost willing it to happen, man will be responsible for the end of the world, not a devil or god. I don't have spiritual belief in the bible.
All the best
Faeden
QUOTE(Azalin @ Aug 13 2005, 04:23 PM)
QUOTE(maryjo1975 @ Aug 13 2005, 08:00 PM)
Oh yes, you make sense to me.
First off. I am not sure why some preachers feel the need to scream and yell. I used to go to a church like that. I have seen men get all sweaty and snotty and spitty. LOL! The message is the same whether they scream it or speak it. There is one man, dont know if you have heard about him or not but he is pretty popular here in America. His name is Jesse Duplantis. His whole ministry is basically humor, love, fun, acceptance. I love him. LOL! He doesnt really TRY to be funny but people cant help just laughing through his sermons. I have receieved personal emails from him and his wife during a really tough time in my life when I left some prayer requests on their website. I was REALLY impressed with that. And usually his sermons are just on LOVE! Loving everyone no matter what. Thats was Jesus taught so that is what we should do!
I dont remember any story in the bible that says and "Jesus SCREAMED...." A lot of times I think it is just a way for some preachers to make themselves seem more important than they really are.
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First off. I am not sure why some preachers feel the need to scream and yell. I used to go to a church like that. I have seen men get all sweaty and snotty and spitty. LOL! The message is the same whether they scream it or speak it. There is one man, dont know if you have heard about him or not but he is pretty popular here in America. His name is Jesse Duplantis. His whole ministry is basically humor, love, fun, acceptance. I love him. LOL! He doesnt really TRY to be funny but people cant help just laughing through his sermons. I have receieved personal emails from him and his wife during a really tough time in my life when I left some prayer requests on their website. I was REALLY impressed with that. And usually his sermons are just on LOVE! Loving everyone no matter what. Thats was Jesus taught so that is what we should do!
I dont remember any story in the bible that says and "Jesus SCREAMED...." A lot of times I think it is just a way for some preachers to make themselves seem more important than they really are.
[right][snapback]788673[/snapback][/right]
I beleive you are talking about pastors and or jehovah witnesses. Roman Catholic ( The world's largest christian community ) do not sit on podiums saying " hallelujah, hallelujah, praise be to Jesus, and hold there hands up and clap, and sing songs". We hold sermons, in which silence is preferred, the priest / bishop reads from the bible, and blesses the community. Meeting concludes with the the Eucharist and communion.
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Yeah, my experience is baptist, non-denominational, and whatever else I happen to catch on tv. LOL!
My father came from a religion....not sure exactly what it was he was born in Germany, and their sermons were the same. Very quiet, calm. He was NOT up for some of the churches my mom drug him to. LOL! But he tried it for awhile. Now he can clap his hands when we sing! LOL!!! But it is from him where I have actually gotten more of my outlook on Christianity. Where my mother is the one who thinks you should be in church every time the doors are open and always pushed religion at us...my dad isnt like that. He thinks that you should start at home. He is the one who thinks it more important to stay home from church to help a friend do something on their house or yard or move or take care of sick people. He always said if you cant do unto others in your own world, your neighoborhood....then you have no business preaching about it from a pulpit.
Agreed, the text book definition of a "church" is a community, whether that be in a $200,000 chapel, or at a house with friends, a church is the same thing.
Faeden.....(too much quoting going on. LOL)
I really appreciate your kind words. They really do mean a lot to me. I try not to judge anyone and I would be the one at church that people are looking at....wondering what to make of me. They KNOW I believe what they do...but I would just as soon show up at church in all black with funky shoes and a hat or purse! People learned a long time ago not to try and figure me out. LOL! My mom about died when I showed up at church in my favorite shirt. A dark blue one that says "Stop staring at me!" LOL!!!
I have also gotten myself into trouble for saying that I dont believe that gay people will go to hell for being gay and they should be accepted at church. LOL! Of course one of my closest friends, he was like a brother to me, came out as gay (after he married another of my closest friends) and he is now so worried what people think about him that he doesnt want to be around any of us anymore. And I just want the chance to tell him I still love him no matter what! And yes, we went to church together.
I must say I do worry that maybe I am not a "good christian" because I do question things. But I figure if God made us, He gave me this brain that thinks the way it does. I have never done anything that would have caused me to become demon possessed so I am pretty sure that isnt it. LOL!!
I had a boyfriend once (from this same church. LOL) and he was SOOO controlled by the "religion" aspect of christianity that he drove me NUTS! He didnt understand natural, human emotions! When I expressed my wish that my very sick grandmother who was suffering from cancer and in a lot of pain would just go on he thought I was a horrible person. Should I wish she continue on in pain?! There was no hope left. After her funeral we were going through some of her things and putting on her jewelry. She had some snakes and things in rings and arm bands (she was in the Daughters of the Nile. If you dont know what that is I will explain later.) and I was wearing them. He got so upset! He thought something was going to come through them into me or something!
Later on when I broke up with him I tried explaining that he never asked me about myself or my day, he didnt seem to care how I felt about things. He was like "I guess I just let the devil have too much control over me." He went on and on talking about stuff like that before I had enough. I told him "maybe it is just natural HUMAN emotions!" He didnt buy it. LOL! Either way, I had to cut him loose! LOL!!
By the way, of this church group that I dated this guy from and my two friends got married and then the guy came out as gay....I married the "rebel" of the group. That didnt get me any brownie points for sure! LOL!!! There were some normal people in this group. My sister and a few others. But not me! LOL!!
Either way, I dont blindly accept anything. I have to ask lots of questions.
But.....back on topic. LOL!
To the person who started this thread......what do YOU think about how the world will end?
I really appreciate your kind words. They really do mean a lot to me. I try not to judge anyone and I would be the one at church that people are looking at....wondering what to make of me. They KNOW I believe what they do...but I would just as soon show up at church in all black with funky shoes and a hat or purse! People learned a long time ago not to try and figure me out. LOL! My mom about died when I showed up at church in my favorite shirt. A dark blue one that says "Stop staring at me!" LOL!!!
I have also gotten myself into trouble for saying that I dont believe that gay people will go to hell for being gay and they should be accepted at church. LOL! Of course one of my closest friends, he was like a brother to me, came out as gay (after he married another of my closest friends) and he is now so worried what people think about him that he doesnt want to be around any of us anymore. And I just want the chance to tell him I still love him no matter what! And yes, we went to church together.
I must say I do worry that maybe I am not a "good christian" because I do question things. But I figure if God made us, He gave me this brain that thinks the way it does. I have never done anything that would have caused me to become demon possessed so I am pretty sure that isnt it. LOL!!
I had a boyfriend once (from this same church. LOL) and he was SOOO controlled by the "religion" aspect of christianity that he drove me NUTS! He didnt understand natural, human emotions! When I expressed my wish that my very sick grandmother who was suffering from cancer and in a lot of pain would just go on he thought I was a horrible person. Should I wish she continue on in pain?! There was no hope left. After her funeral we were going through some of her things and putting on her jewelry. She had some snakes and things in rings and arm bands (she was in the Daughters of the Nile. If you dont know what that is I will explain later.) and I was wearing them. He got so upset! He thought something was going to come through them into me or something!
Later on when I broke up with him I tried explaining that he never asked me about myself or my day, he didnt seem to care how I felt about things. He was like "I guess I just let the devil have too much control over me." He went on and on talking about stuff like that before I had enough. I told him "maybe it is just natural HUMAN emotions!" He didnt buy it. LOL! Either way, I had to cut him loose! LOL!!
By the way, of this church group that I dated this guy from and my two friends got married and then the guy came out as gay....I married the "rebel" of the group. That didnt get me any brownie points for sure! LOL!!! There were some normal people in this group. My sister and a few others. But not me! LOL!!
Either way, I dont blindly accept anything. I have to ask lots of questions.
But.....back on topic. LOL!
To the person who started this thread......what do YOU think about how the world will end?
Mary Jo,
Smith may be employed by a Baptist University but he is extremely unbiased and, in fact, his father, Dr. Morton Smith, is one of the most renouned Biblical scholars and is a professor at Columbia University. I checked and you can find a quick reference to my comments at http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Rev.htm.
Permit me to add that I am a skeptic and a career skeptic. I studied ancient languages and had the benefit of two 55-day study permits in the Vatican archives as well as access to many of the undisplayed properties of major universities. The more I investigated, the more skeptical I became.
QUOTE(iaapac @ Aug 13 2005, 05:51 PM)
Mary Jo,
Smith may be employed by a Baptist University but he is extremely unbiased and, in fact, his father, Dr. Morton Smith, is one of the most renouned Biblical scholars and is a professor at Columbia University. I checked and you can find a quick reference to my comments at http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Rev.htm.
Permit me to add that I am a skeptic and a career skeptic. I studied ancient languages and had the benefit of two 55-day study permits in the Vatican archives as well as access to many of the undisplayed properties of major universities. The more I investigated, the more skeptical I became.
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Smith may be employed by a Baptist University but he is extremely unbiased and, in fact, his father, Dr. Morton Smith, is one of the most renouned Biblical scholars and is a professor at Columbia University. I checked and you can find a quick reference to my comments at http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Rev.htm.
Permit me to add that I am a skeptic and a career skeptic. I studied ancient languages and had the benefit of two 55-day study permits in the Vatican archives as well as access to many of the undisplayed properties of major universities. The more I investigated, the more skeptical I became.
[right][snapback]788831[/snapback][/right]
Thanks for that link. I am going to check it out when I have some more time. It seems really interesting. THANKS AGAIN!!
Hi Maryjo
That’s sad about the gay people thing. God made us who we are, he/she also made gay people. People do not choose to be gay, they just are, who are they to question gods creation?. Its a shame that so many Christians ignore there own bible, it says in the bible not to judge, or condemn, am I just stupid or is not allowing gays in your church because they are gay and "evil", judging and condemning them?
One of the main problems with religious extremism is that it teaches because you believe what you do, you are above everyone else that doesn’t, there for people look down on others, so it becomes a form of racism, which is why I believe religious extremism fits in so well within a society that has groups like the KKK.
Many fundamentalists are controlling people, because believing what they do gives them a false sense power, and they will do anything they can to keep that feeling of control and power, many religious extremists under all the shouting and powerful stature are frightened people just like the rest of us. Controlling others with fear gives them a crutch to stand on, people all deal with the uncertainties of life in there own little ways I suppose, but many religious people seem to find comfort in making others as fearful as they are, its like "if I am going to suffer with fear and unhappiness, so is everyone else around me" and most of them do not even know they are doing it. Maybe its why some preachers shout and act all scary because it makes them feel all powerful and on top of everything, when in fact life scares them so much they have to take it out on the world, by condemning it and shouting at it? The world is cruel and scary, being angry at it I suppose makes sense.
Religion works as a crutch for some, and in many cases that is a good thing, but in the extremists sense its a horrible destructive thing. Fear is paralysing, its a horrible infliction I would not wish on my worse enemy.
All the best
Faeden
PS: keep wearing your T shirt to church and lots of sparkly things, its all fun. Some people think church should be a sombre occasion, if I was to go it would be a happy, fun, joyous occasion.
That’s sad about the gay people thing. God made us who we are, he/she also made gay people. People do not choose to be gay, they just are, who are they to question gods creation?. Its a shame that so many Christians ignore there own bible, it says in the bible not to judge, or condemn, am I just stupid or is not allowing gays in your church because they are gay and "evil", judging and condemning them?
One of the main problems with religious extremism is that it teaches because you believe what you do, you are above everyone else that doesn’t, there for people look down on others, so it becomes a form of racism, which is why I believe religious extremism fits in so well within a society that has groups like the KKK.
Many fundamentalists are controlling people, because believing what they do gives them a false sense power, and they will do anything they can to keep that feeling of control and power, many religious extremists under all the shouting and powerful stature are frightened people just like the rest of us. Controlling others with fear gives them a crutch to stand on, people all deal with the uncertainties of life in there own little ways I suppose, but many religious people seem to find comfort in making others as fearful as they are, its like "if I am going to suffer with fear and unhappiness, so is everyone else around me" and most of them do not even know they are doing it. Maybe its why some preachers shout and act all scary because it makes them feel all powerful and on top of everything, when in fact life scares them so much they have to take it out on the world, by condemning it and shouting at it? The world is cruel and scary, being angry at it I suppose makes sense.
Religion works as a crutch for some, and in many cases that is a good thing, but in the extremists sense its a horrible destructive thing. Fear is paralysing, its a horrible infliction I would not wish on my worse enemy.
All the best
Faeden
PS: keep wearing your T shirt to church and lots of sparkly things, its all fun. Some people think church should be a sombre occasion, if I was to go it would be a happy, fun, joyous occasion.
Faeden, the whole religion as a crutch thing bothers me. Yeah, I know a lot of people who do that. But I am not one of them. And I know lots of people who dont. But it seems that people who dont agree with "religion" think that EVERYONE who does uses it as a crutch. Like I said, I dont believe in religion! But I also dont consider my faith a crutch. I know that humans are humans. We all make mistakes. And I think that the devil can only have as much control over our lives that we give him. If the devil exsists.....right? LOL!!!
I am not a die hard church going person. I like to go to church. Actually, the church I go to right now meets in the gym of my son's school. I know most of the people there from other churches. The music has gotten really good but the last church I went to people were dancing and things like that. Actually, my mom and sister had a dance team that taught others how to dance and use flags and streamers in church. Yeah, I know that sounds weird. LOL! And to a lot of people it is. I think it is beautiful.
(I worry that the more I tell you the more you will think I am a nut. LOL)
But most of us wear jeans and t-shirts to church. It isnt a somber occassion by any means. The pastor cant help but make everyone laugh constantly. We have a lot of fun.
But it seems to me that so many people who go to church go because they think they have to or that they should. They dont have any joy in it. when I go I am happy because when I go it is because I WANT to be there. Not because I think I HAVE to be. I dont think it is going to get me to heaven any faster. LOL! If I dont feel like going then to heck with it! I learned, during a time when my family was going through some major problems that you cant depend on the church or religion to do anything for you. When you go through what I did, all that stuff flies out the window. The people in my church at that time (not where I go now) decided the only support they were going to give me was to gossip about me. Not one time in two years anyone of them ask me if I needed anything.
It is also during times like these that you really KNOW what you believe. Things become clearer. I realized then that I didnt need a church or a preacher or anything else. If I am going to have a relationship with God I can do it on my own.
Another thing that some people might not like about me is that, thanks to my Cherokee Indian roots, I tend to be very much into nature. I like to dance in the rain and walk barefoot through the grass and I can really FEEL God in nature. That is a little far fetched for some people. I dont share that with many people. No one really. LOL!
Well, as for not allowing gay people in our church I dont know about that. I know that one came a few months ago.
See, a whole bunch of us used to go to church together. Then it split and those of us who went with one side started our own church but it eventually joined with another church. My family left that church because they were big into demonology...basically the casting out of them. LOL! Anyway, we went to a couple of other churches but even up back at the church that had been casting out demons a lot. They werent doing that kind of stuff anymore and we were there for quite a while. Eventually we left that building because it was falling down and it was REALLY old. We all moved into a old movie theater. Eventually the church split and we went again with the group that left. That church started it's own church and moved in with yet another church. At this point my family left again and we ended up in another church. That church eventually just fell completely apart. And then we found our way to this church. The church we go to now is now a combination of all those other churches! LOL!! And I SWEAR, my family has NEVER had anything to do with the church splits! LOL!!!!
So....there are at least 2 if not 3 or more men who had gone to this church who eventually came out as gay. One of them was at our church a few months ago. LOL! Everyone was really happy to see him but he hasnt been back since.
I dont think the church I go to would not allow them. In fact I think they would make them very welcomed. But I have been in some where it would have NEVER happend.
I could tell you some stories. LOL!! But I wont bore you.
Your theory of preachers being controlling people is correct. For most of them. Not ALL of them but I have been in a couple of churches that have tried to control the people going to those churches not just while they are in church but their every day lives as well! I know a couple of people who quit their jobs because he didnt think they should be there.
We left a church once because when me and my husband were dating they wanted to know if we were having sex and we told them we werent but they didnt believe us. We werent kids. We were both adults!!!!
Like I said...I could tell you some stories! But I dont think I am helping the cause any. LOL!!!
Something you said reminded me of how when I was a kid I heard over and over how Catholics werent going to heaven because they arent really saved. It wasnt until many years later that I learned that they basically believe the same exact things we did! Just because they go about it a different way the baptist churches I went to thought that they wouldnt go to heaven! So, it has to be done THEIR way or you wont get into heaven. I think that is when I really started to question everything I had always been taught.
I am not a die hard church going person. I like to go to church. Actually, the church I go to right now meets in the gym of my son's school. I know most of the people there from other churches. The music has gotten really good but the last church I went to people were dancing and things like that. Actually, my mom and sister had a dance team that taught others how to dance and use flags and streamers in church. Yeah, I know that sounds weird. LOL! And to a lot of people it is. I think it is beautiful.
(I worry that the more I tell you the more you will think I am a nut. LOL)
But most of us wear jeans and t-shirts to church. It isnt a somber occassion by any means. The pastor cant help but make everyone laugh constantly. We have a lot of fun.
But it seems to me that so many people who go to church go because they think they have to or that they should. They dont have any joy in it. when I go I am happy because when I go it is because I WANT to be there. Not because I think I HAVE to be. I dont think it is going to get me to heaven any faster. LOL! If I dont feel like going then to heck with it! I learned, during a time when my family was going through some major problems that you cant depend on the church or religion to do anything for you. When you go through what I did, all that stuff flies out the window. The people in my church at that time (not where I go now) decided the only support they were going to give me was to gossip about me. Not one time in two years anyone of them ask me if I needed anything.
It is also during times like these that you really KNOW what you believe. Things become clearer. I realized then that I didnt need a church or a preacher or anything else. If I am going to have a relationship with God I can do it on my own.
Another thing that some people might not like about me is that, thanks to my Cherokee Indian roots, I tend to be very much into nature. I like to dance in the rain and walk barefoot through the grass and I can really FEEL God in nature. That is a little far fetched for some people. I dont share that with many people. No one really. LOL!
Well, as for not allowing gay people in our church I dont know about that. I know that one came a few months ago.
See, a whole bunch of us used to go to church together. Then it split and those of us who went with one side started our own church but it eventually joined with another church. My family left that church because they were big into demonology...basically the casting out of them. LOL! Anyway, we went to a couple of other churches but even up back at the church that had been casting out demons a lot. They werent doing that kind of stuff anymore and we were there for quite a while. Eventually we left that building because it was falling down and it was REALLY old. We all moved into a old movie theater. Eventually the church split and we went again with the group that left. That church started it's own church and moved in with yet another church. At this point my family left again and we ended up in another church. That church eventually just fell completely apart. And then we found our way to this church. The church we go to now is now a combination of all those other churches! LOL!! And I SWEAR, my family has NEVER had anything to do with the church splits! LOL!!!!
So....there are at least 2 if not 3 or more men who had gone to this church who eventually came out as gay. One of them was at our church a few months ago. LOL! Everyone was really happy to see him but he hasnt been back since.
I dont think the church I go to would not allow them. In fact I think they would make them very welcomed. But I have been in some where it would have NEVER happend.
I could tell you some stories. LOL!! But I wont bore you.
Your theory of preachers being controlling people is correct. For most of them. Not ALL of them but I have been in a couple of churches that have tried to control the people going to those churches not just while they are in church but their every day lives as well! I know a couple of people who quit their jobs because he didnt think they should be there.
We left a church once because when me and my husband were dating they wanted to know if we were having sex and we told them we werent but they didnt believe us. We werent kids. We were both adults!!!!
Like I said...I could tell you some stories! But I dont think I am helping the cause any. LOL!!!
Something you said reminded me of how when I was a kid I heard over and over how Catholics werent going to heaven because they arent really saved. It wasnt until many years later that I learned that they basically believe the same exact things we did! Just because they go about it a different way the baptist churches I went to thought that they wouldnt go to heaven! So, it has to be done THEIR way or you wont get into heaven. I think that is when I really started to question everything I had always been taught.
Mary Jo, I was always a skeptic, I guess from the cradle. My family was Catholic and one Christmas we went to mass and, of course, heard the nativity tale from Luke.
After the mass was over, the priest was at the door wishing everyone a merry Christmas and did so to my parents before patting me on the head and asking me how I liked the sermon. I distinctly remember thinking, "Now's my chance!"
I said boldly, "It was okay, but I didn't believe it."
Everyone was aghast. My parents turned red with embarrassment and anger, onlookers had their mouths agape and the priest wore a frown deeper than any furrow in a field.
"And just what didn't you believe?" he asked.
Oh well, it was too late to back out now. "You said that kings came from the East and they followed a star in the East," I began.
"That's right," he nodded, forcing a smile.
"Well, if you're in the East following a star in the East, you would have to go around the world to get to Bethlehem."
Before he could start whatever explanation he wanted to offer, I continued.
"And you said the kings brought presents. God, frankenscense and myhrr. Well, if I was a king going to visit a king greater than me or any other kind, I would take a lot of god or those other things. But then you said Jesus grew up the son of a poor carpenter. Where did all that money go?"
I wasn't very popular at home or at church for weeks. The strange thing, however, was that no one offered to answer my questions. It was then, I think, that I decided that I would be the inquierer and the skeptic rather than believe whatever I heard.
After the mass was over, the priest was at the door wishing everyone a merry Christmas and did so to my parents before patting me on the head and asking me how I liked the sermon. I distinctly remember thinking, "Now's my chance!"
I said boldly, "It was okay, but I didn't believe it."
Everyone was aghast. My parents turned red with embarrassment and anger, onlookers had their mouths agape and the priest wore a frown deeper than any furrow in a field.
"And just what didn't you believe?" he asked.
Oh well, it was too late to back out now. "You said that kings came from the East and they followed a star in the East," I began.
"That's right," he nodded, forcing a smile.
"Well, if you're in the East following a star in the East, you would have to go around the world to get to Bethlehem."
Before he could start whatever explanation he wanted to offer, I continued.
"And you said the kings brought presents. God, frankenscense and myhrr. Well, if I was a king going to visit a king greater than me or any other kind, I would take a lot of god or those other things. But then you said Jesus grew up the son of a poor carpenter. Where did all that money go?"
I wasn't very popular at home or at church for weeks. The strange thing, however, was that no one offered to answer my questions. It was then, I think, that I decided that I would be the inquierer and the skeptic rather than believe whatever I heard.
QUOTE(iaapac @ Aug 13 2005, 11:57 PM)
Mary Jo, I was always a skeptic, I guess from the cradle. My family was Catholic and one Christmas we went to mass and, of course, heard the nativity tale from Luke.
After the mass was over, the priest was at the door wishing everyone a merry Christmas and did so to my parents before patting me on the head and asking me how I liked the sermon. I distinctly remember thinking, "Now's my chance!"
I said boldly, "It was okay, but I didn't believe it."
Everyone was aghast. My parents turned red with embarrassment and anger, onlookers had their mouths agape and the priest wore a frown deeper than any furrow in a field.
"And just what didn't you believe?" he asked.
Oh well, it was too late to back out now. "You said that kings came from the East and they followed a star in the East," I began.
"That's right," he nodded, forcing a smile.
"Well, if you're in the East following a star in the East, you would have to go around the world to get to Bethlehem."
Before he could start whatever explanation he wanted to offer, I continued.
"And you said the kings brought presents. God, frankenscense and myhrr. Well, if I was a king going to visit a king greater than me or any other kind, I would take a lot of god or those other things. But then you said Jesus grew up the son of a poor carpenter. Where did all that money go?"
I wasn't very popular at home or at church for weeks. The strange thing, however, was that no one offered to answer my questions. It was then, I think, that I decided that I would be the inquierer and the skeptic rather than believe whatever I heard.
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After the mass was over, the priest was at the door wishing everyone a merry Christmas and did so to my parents before patting me on the head and asking me how I liked the sermon. I distinctly remember thinking, "Now's my chance!"
I said boldly, "It was okay, but I didn't believe it."
Everyone was aghast. My parents turned red with embarrassment and anger, onlookers had their mouths agape and the priest wore a frown deeper than any furrow in a field.
"And just what didn't you believe?" he asked.
Oh well, it was too late to back out now. "You said that kings came from the East and they followed a star in the East," I began.
"That's right," he nodded, forcing a smile.
"Well, if you're in the East following a star in the East, you would have to go around the world to get to Bethlehem."
Before he could start whatever explanation he wanted to offer, I continued.
"And you said the kings brought presents. God, frankenscense and myhrr. Well, if I was a king going to visit a king greater than me or any other kind, I would take a lot of god or those other things. But then you said Jesus grew up the son of a poor carpenter. Where did all that money go?"
I wasn't very popular at home or at church for weeks. The strange thing, however, was that no one offered to answer my questions. It was then, I think, that I decided that I would be the inquierer and the skeptic rather than believe whatever I heard.
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LOL!! That is GREAT!!!!! LOL!!!
And you never do get answers for them. I wonder how long the stories we hear have been in exsistance and I wish I really knew what happend. I mean, you tell someone something at work and in a day or two it is spread all over and rarely is it correct anymore. More than 2000 years is a long time to keep so many stories straight....even with a book.
I dont like it that I have come to the conclusion that I just dont believe everything in the bible. It hurts for some reason. It isnt that I dont believe it. Just that I dont consider it so seriously anymore.
I am bad about questioning everything. But I think my son is going to be much worse! LOL!
LOL you guys sound like me.. When i use to live with my mom she had a stupid house rule that if you lived there you had to go to church every sunday. I had no problem going once in a while but i thought it defeated the purpose of going if one was forced. So i'd go there in my pajamas and bed hair and fall asleep in the seats. I'm glad it was a come as you are church but i had fun making it totally obvious i didnt want to be there and how much of an ass my mom was for making me go. I'd show up with purple or green hair, combat boots and fishnets on. She use to be such a fundie that she threw out most my cloths and cd's cus she thought i invited the devil into the house. Funny how i dont live there and they r having the same problems. Anyways... back to topic... I cant understand how some people think by forcing religion onto anyone is going to make someone convert. The book of revelations to me is more symbolic and i find it odd and creepy how some people take it so literal. Its scary how so many want hell fire and brim stone to wipe out everyone yet they proclaim to be such wonderful christians. I believe its not in weather someone says they are a christian or even a great person or not. Its in the actions that truly speak louder than words and people should reflect what is truly in their heart and love and respect everyone whether they agree or disagree with ones belief. As for the apocalypse, i believe it will be brought on by the hands of corrupt and evil people. Blessings,Jo
QUOTE(iaapac @ Aug 13 2005, 02:51 PM)
Mary Jo,
Smith may be employed by a Baptist University but he is extremely unbiased and, in fact, his father, Dr. Morton Smith, is one of the most renouned Biblical scholars and is a professor at Columbia University. I checked and you can find a quick reference to my comments at http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Rev.htm.
Permit me to add that I am a skeptic and a career skeptic. I studied ancient languages and had the benefit of two 55-day study permits in the Vatican archives as well as access to many of the undisplayed properties of major universities. The more I investigated, the more skeptical I became.
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Smith may be employed by a Baptist University but he is extremely unbiased and, in fact, his father, Dr. Morton Smith, is one of the most renouned Biblical scholars and is a professor at Columbia University. I checked and you can find a quick reference to my comments at http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Rev.htm.
Permit me to add that I am a skeptic and a career skeptic. I studied ancient languages and had the benefit of two 55-day study permits in the Vatican archives as well as access to many of the undisplayed properties of major universities. The more I investigated, the more skeptical I became.
[right][snapback]788831[/snapback][/right]
Iapaac, very interesting posts I enjoy your posts as you know, Are you familiar with Karen Armstrong she writes on Bible history??I find her to be fascinating what do you think?? I will check oput your links also you can never get enough bible history, Namaste Sheri
QUOTE(Azalin @ Aug 13 2005, 05:50 PM)
Read Revelations in the bible.
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That's where I got my Screen Name, is from the revelations.... The Revelations is scary. A lot of coincidences.
All this fire in the sky and boiling seas flowing blood red and crap, that's war.
The locust coming out of the groung spitting fire and tormenting people...that's me "enemy_LOCUS" are tanks.
I especially like the part where the stars fall from the sky....LOL talk about ridiculous - objects billions of times larger than the planet earth falling from the sky onto the earth - unbelievable to say the least! Even if you wanted "Wormwood" to be explained as an asteroid, the damage would be a lot more than what is described, I think you can write all of this off as a late Jewish apocalyptic writing, borrowed and modified by Christians.
QUOTE(maryjo1975 @ Aug 14 2005, 01:19 PM)
But most of us wear jeans and t-shirts to church. It isnt a somber occassion by any means.
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Indeed, you can usually tell the C+E (Christmas and Easter) Christians by the fact they come to church during these events wearing collared shirts, ties, polished black leather shoes etc.
Regards,
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Aug 15 2005, 09:43 AM)
QUOTE(maryjo1975 @ Aug 14 2005, 01:19 PM)
But most of us wear jeans and t-shirts to church. It isnt a somber occassion by any means.
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Indeed, you can usually tell the C+E (Christmas and Easter) Christians by the fact they come to church during these events wearing collared shirts, ties, polished black leather shoes etc.
Regards,
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Well, I dress up on holidays and speciall occassions too. But the church I go to right now meets in a school gym. So there really isnt much call for formalities. They are planning on getting a building in the future and most will probably go back to wearing basic Sunday garb. But since I am a jeans and t-shirt kind of person I will usually just wear that. However, since I AM a girl, I DO like to dress up every now and then. And since I dont go anywhere that warrants dressing up..I sometimes do it for church.
QUOTE(Sheri berri @ Aug 14 2005, 02:52 AM)
QUOTE(iaapac @ Aug 13 2005, 02:51 PM)
Mary Jo,
Smith may be employed by a Baptist University but he is extremely unbiased and, in fact, his father, Dr. Morton Smith, is one of the most renouned Biblical scholars and is a professor at Columbia University. I checked and you can find a quick reference to my comments at http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Rev.htm.
Permit me to add that I am a skeptic and a career skeptic. I studied ancient languages and had the benefit of two 55-day study permits in the Vatican archives as well as access to many of the undisplayed properties of major universities. The more I investigated, the more skeptical I became.
[right][snapback]788831[/snapback][/right]
Smith may be employed by a Baptist University but he is extremely unbiased and, in fact, his father, Dr. Morton Smith, is one of the most renouned Biblical scholars and is a professor at Columbia University. I checked and you can find a quick reference to my comments at http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Rev.htm.
Permit me to add that I am a skeptic and a career skeptic. I studied ancient languages and had the benefit of two 55-day study permits in the Vatican archives as well as access to many of the undisplayed properties of major universities. The more I investigated, the more skeptical I became.
[right][snapback]788831[/snapback][/right]
Iapaac, very interesting posts I enjoy your posts as you know, Are you familiar with Karen Armstrong she writes on Bible history??I find her to be fascinating what do you think?? I will check oput your links also you can never get enough bible history, Namaste Sheri
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Sheri, sorry about the delay. I was out of town for a few days. Karen Armstrong is the ex-nun, right?
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