Sorry about the title of this thread, but now I have your attention here are some questions for you all, both sceptics and believers alike.

In Christianity we should beg god to forgive us for our sins, even if you have never harmed another soul. Christianity teaches that we are born into sin, just being humans makes us sinful, and that we should ask god to forgive us just for being human so that we will not burn in hell.

God created us right? God put us here, none of us asked to be created and to be put on this earth, so why should I beg God to forgive me for being the person he created? Why should I beg for forgiveness for being me, and for being born? How can god put us here on earth that was completely out of our hands, and then want us to ask him for forgiveness for him creating us? isn’t that a little twisted?

People cant use the argument that we ask for forgiveness because we have free will and choose to be evil by making decisions, and that we turned from god because its believed we are born into sin, and babies cant make choices and make decisions so that rules out free will. How can a baby be sinful when it is not able to use free will and make choices that would cause it to be a sinner..

Good luck.

All the best
Faeden

Yeah...

It's like in a game of football(American, soccer=bleh ): You're a nervous freshman who's never played before. The coach all of a sudden puts you in, and makes you a linemen. You can't believe this! You're not built to be a linemen! You wanted to be a receiver! But, you respect your coach's wishes and play as a linemen. You scrwe up badly and the ball gets turned over. What are you going to do? Ask the coach to forgive you, of course. You never asked to be a linemen , since you don't know how, and you screwed up. If you need it explained more, please ask
See above example. Just because the coach put you in a position you can't/never play, does that make him a sick, twisted man who wants to see you suffer? Nope. He put you in so you can get some experience in that position.

Never used that argument once, now did I?

Hope that helped you

Yes but being put on a football field you have to agree to be in the team. Being put on a football field when your not ready is a little bit different to being born, and then burnt in hell for a whole eternity even though you never asked to be born. You have to agree to be in the team, no one agrees to be born.

All the best
Faeden

Let me get this straight....
We have free will?
We are born sinners?
Where is the "Free Will" there?


Hey Faeden!

Hey there

Are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me that it doesn’t make any sense? LOL

I was saying how does just being born make you a sinner? God created us, and then we have to ask for forgiveness for being born a human. Surly babies are not sinners, since they have no free will to make choices that might make them evil, and that includes there own birth and the sin of being a human being.

All the best
Faeden

Ah, interesting question. Here I am, again having to explain the idea of heaven and hell. Hell is simply a place that's eternally separated from God. That's it. No, you didn't choose to be born, but you're here, so get over it. Now the question becomes, what are you going to do with your life. Are you going to try and do the best that you can and be decent and honest and good? Or are you going to create an avatar with the word "EVIL" next to your name. How you live your life is your choice. You can be born, be sinful (and everyone has sinned and will sin again) and just die and go to hell, or they can accept God and decide to spend an eternity in heaven. The bible says that the wages of sin is death. So, you sin, you deserve hell. I've sinned, I deserve hell. Also, there's an age of accountability. Babies and children don't go to hell. But I chose God. I accepted salvation. I got it and now I'm saved. You want to rebel against God, try to prove He doesn't exist (though you never will) and fight against Him...that's not the way to get to heaven.

am i the only one who knows this,adam and eve sin therefore we are born with sin

again, huh? the only valid beliefs are Christianity and atheism? guess what, even the jews don't believe in "original sin". it's pretty much more bs invented when the roman emperor convened the council of constantinople, rewrote most or all of the n.t., and wanted to make everyone christians to preserve his prescious roman empire, which didn't even survive his own death. what a legacy! he even burned all the pagan temples, and the library at alexandria, just to perpetuate this trash! original sin is a perversion of genesis, to make everyone scared into being christians. aren't we tired of this lie after almost 2000 years? "You shall judge a tree by the fruit it bears" 2000 years of religious wars, persecution, witchburning, the inquisition, the crusades, the holocaust (WHEN THE CHRISTIANS TURNED THEIR BACKS KNOWING 6 MILLION JEWS WERE BEING SLAUGHTERED LIKE CATTLE). I am leaving out a few things, but the christian lie is over! Your prescious Yeshu is not coming back!

Hi saucy



We agree there kind of, I believe that god is love and hell is a place where love doesnt exsist.



All you did there was compleatly over ride and avoid my origonal questions, impossible to answer isnt it ? better to just avoid difficalt questions right?



Is this an attack at me because you could not answer a uncomfterble question? You know if I was god, id make having no sense of humor a sin.... Do you think that I am evil for having evil across my head as a joke on a forum avatar? if you do you might want to cheak your mentality, your way of thinking is a little worrying its a avatar saucy..... Will I go to hell for my avatar saucy



I am not rebeling againt god, just asking a question my friend, one you could not answer.

Why would I want to prove god doesnt exsist, I believe in god, just not a egotistical one. I dont have to kiss ass and slime my way into heaven, my god loves me because I am gods creation, and he doesnt have a need to be feared. saucy if I take the evil of my avatar, will god let me into heaven?



I know about the myth I am looking for the logic and an answer to a contradiction.

All the best
Faeden

Agreeing with you that it is lacking and does not make sense.

Are you saying that it is OK to punish the children (Who knows how many generations since then) for the sins of the parents?

i did not say punish the children god created them i believe in god (read the genisis in the bible)

It's a very good question there....I don't believe in original sin in anyway I think it is the most obserd thing I have ever heard to be honest.....I think the basic point here is that it's a showing of the fact that it's all fake, a man made idea thing created for control or whatever....In my personal opinion I think that any person who feels that a child is born with sin is insane, when you look at a new born child there is nothing there but a perfect little person who is void of all human corruption, perhaps that is what the leaders were afraid of...the simple fact that there were living beings who couldn't be judged therefore created a way to judge even the newest life....who knows but its crazy no matter what the thought pattern that created the concept or the people who still follow it

I have NJC many times. Per Christian belief that is why we are born sinners: Adam and Eve. If that is what you believe (Christianity) then you believe that it is OK to punish the child for the sins of the parents.

Right on Bacca...It is insane.
What else is there to see in that little person?

I am not a Christian. My whole concept of a supreme being works out in English as a "leveling controlled drift that moves in an ever expanding circle" roughly translated "driftmaker" My tribe does not see "God" as a male or even a being but all encompassing. but I can't explain my native belief to well in English because it is too cobbled as a language. I cannot comprehend how a god can consider his creation bad from the get go. You Christians are too guilt ridden. of course it is a good way to contol you........

lapi'che ni'tis

Really who on this earth really knows if someone else is going to hell or not. Even so, what gives anyone here the right to tell someone that they r going there.. What does that achieve.. Does that make someone want to convert. I dont think so. Even if someone claims someone else is going to hell.. doesnt make it so. I really hate when people try to witness and play god at the same time. Who are they to win souls anyway. We r all in the same boat together no one is better than anyone else. Someone in my family was trying to preach to me the other day and they were saying how the more ppl you lead to christ u will get rewarded for that in heaven. Now that statement got me thinking.. How many people do preach or whatever out of genuine love and compassion for other humans and how many people are doing it for what they can get in the afterlife. I think God or the divine power sees though all that selfish crap. And when and if there is a judgement day i think many people will be in for a big rude awakening and surprise.

i concur, zandore and bacca:

within the newborn lies the hope of tomorrow, the purity of potential. how perverse a belief structure is it that condemns those who hold nothing but promise?

taken from my uncle:

When people come to the age of accountability, when someone knows that they sin, they know that they need to come to know who God is and to ask for forgiveness. Babies are not born into sin, people who are handicap are not sinners, they don't know what sin is.

You know what sin is because you know what you are doing. Babies who are killed (abortion) they go Heaven.

The twelve year on is smarter than all of you. Adam and Eve caused man to sin and we when we go into a age of accountability, we have to ask for forgiveness.

You knowledge that there is a God, come to know Him for real.

NOTE: That is TaintedDooughnuts' uncle's opinions, and they may not be mine

Hi TaintedDoughnuts

Interesting ideas there. What would your uncle say though if someone was born into a tribe in the middle of the jungle and they had never heard of the bible and Jesus there whole life and lived to 90 and then died, would they go to heaven?

Also before Adam and Eve, did everyone go to heaven being that sin never existed before Eve sinned? Surly I should not be asking god to forgive me for something I did not do, surly I should be hunting down Eve and giving her a piece of my mind.

Have you ever noticed how the name Eve, is like the word Evil? I never noticed that before, its kind of like evil and the Devil, Evil is also Live backwards. Goes to show how intertwined religion is into our society.

All the best
Faeden

My uncle again...

People who have heard the salvation message and ignore it and do not believe, There is a different level of judgement for them.

The person who was born in a tribe like you say, and had no way of knowing the Salvation message, they will be judge differently.

God is a God of Love. We are His children. He is a jealous God and want us to know Him. When we come to know Him and we accept the Salvation Message, the void within us is filled.

Would there be another way for God to have us come to know Him? For us to lay our life down for Him to say that I believe in you and I want you to be apart of my life. Don't focus on the sinful accept. It's a relationship with God and to know Him as Lord. When we accept and to Believe in Him, the sin of man kind is gone.

I have heard of the concept of the different levels hells and those who don't know of and haven't heard of the truth go into a different level of hell. But I won't knowledge of this because it's not in the Bible. But people do get judge if they reject the truth and those who have never heard truth.

I father died when I was 7 and I always believed that God was my father and He guided my life. I came to know Him as my Savior in 1995. I am a simple person with a strong Faith in God.

Women are fun, eve and evil, very true! lol. You can't live without sometimes you know.

Oh so if you did not know about Jesus your whole life, you get judged differently, but still have to go to one of the levels of hell? Hmmmm God seems to be a very just and fair god, its lucky for us all that the devil did not get into his throne, we would have had it a lot worse.



I thought envy and jealousy was a sin Its OK for God to sin is it? Shouldn’t he be setting an example?

My void is filled, I just ate a huge plate of fish.

All the best
Faeden

So according to Genesis we are born sinners because Adam and Eve sinned? So I should be punished for something my Mom did? Or maybe my Uncle? How about my great great great great great grandfather whom I never knew? I should be punished for something he did? If I shouldn't be punished for something he did then why should I be punished for something two people did thousands and thousands of years ago?

Bull.

[quote]God is a God of Love. We are His children. He is a jealous God and want us to know Him. When we come to know Him and we accept the Salvation Message, the void within us is filled. [/quote]

My void is filled, I just ate a huge plate of fish.

[right][snapback]790243[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Jealous God? boy the Judeo/Christian God has some growing to do.
My void is clogged I went over to Millville and had a big plate of Sushi..

Lapi'che ni'tis

Yeah I don't go for the "do as I say, not as I do" bit either. Any of you seen Equilibrium? This is like the father saying "no ones allowed to feel- feel and $%&ing die, $()%#)es." and then him going off and "feeling".

Or maybe your mom says "NO COOKIES TIL DINNER!!" and you see them pigging out on some cookies. If you make some rules you gotta follow them. I mean cookies isn't a big deal but, hell, JEALOUSY? MURDER? I don't think so.

Hey PM me with what it is you believe. kthanks. Cause I've been trying to figure out if what I believe is already an existing religion or not. :]

Bacca excellent post, for many many resoms I would never choose to follow religion, but that a baby or a child is sinful is a blasemephy in my opinion, When do we say enough is enough with religion???? Namaste Sheri

Bacca, I think the idea of original sin an being born into sin came to obtain control over humans from the first moment of their birth. By claiming that each person, from the beginning of life, needed to be cleansed, the church had its stronghold. But cleansed by whom? The church of course. The impact of this teaching was so great that after the spiritual damage done by various missionaries in the South Sea Islands, mothers there cry at the birth of an infant, mourning that it entered the world so ladened with sin.

Exodus 20:5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
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Exodus 34:14 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

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Oh heck, here is the link. I am not posting all those verses. LOL!
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?q...d&qs_version=31
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I am not so niave to think that you dont know these verses Faeden. LOL! You sure arent making my quest for knowledge and answers easy are you?! LOL!!

I am with you on the jealous God thing. I dont get that either. I asked my husband about it who went to a VERY strict legalistic southern baptist school from kindergarten through 12th grade and his response was "It is ok if you are jealous for the right reasons."

I said "Boy, they really got to you didnt they?!"

I asked him about the babies being born into sin yet not being able to act on free will. He had the same kind of answers every one has posted here already.

But, the only thing I can say is this is a good thread and it gives me something ELSE to think about.

Are you asking because you WANT an answer or just because you want to know what everyone else thinks?

Funny how you avoided my points, God wants us to know to Him.

hehe Both really, I tell you what if anyone can answer this with a logical explanation and answer, ill convert to Christianity



Sorry I do not see how I avoided your points, I was not aware you had even posted and addressed me.

And I have gotten to know god thanks

All the best
Faeden

Wow. It's not that kind of jealous people. Taken from my Bible:
Ex 20:5 jealous.(referring to the use of the word jealous in Exodus 20:5) when used of God, this word describes His passion for His holy name, a zeal that demands the exclusive devotion of His people. It is employed that when claim is threatened by other deities(Deut. 6:15; Josh. 24:19)

Unfortunately no one CAN explain it. Not in any way that will make sense to you unless you are willing to just accept it at face value. Which is really hard, if not impossible, to do.

It is believing in something you cant see, accepting something you cant understand. And to a logical mind...that is really stupid!

There are things I believe but I cant prove them. I mean, no one can prove one way or another with 100% accurate proof that God does or doesnt exsist.

It is what you have been though that gives you the power to believe....whatever it is you might believe. (not you personally...just people in general.)

Like, I know that when I am sitting outside in the middle of a storm that I feel closer to God. Most people think that is nuts but to me, seeing the power of nature IS proof of God to me.

Although this isnt a thread about the proof of God. This is why He does things the way Christianity says he does.

But how can I prove it to you when I dont believe it all myself? So I wont try.

You just gotta have faith????

Oberon (Otter) Zell wrote a story called We Are the Other People. I think it pertains to this discussion.

I also think original sin a way to get converts to the church.




Where in the bible does it say this or did your uncle just make it up as a way to cover this question true or not.

I see where your coming from Maryjo and what you say is true, but my beliefs are logical to me, I might not be able to prove my beliefs, but I am spiritual I take from all faiths, the parts that make sense to me and that fit into my belief structure, if than makes any sense? I am not a fan of dogma, the being born into sin thing doesn’t make any sense to me, and that is why I do not have it as a part of my belief structure, but many of the teachings in Christianity do, so I include them into my own I believe all the religions have good things to offer man kind. Some of the things are bad, and hinder man kind, so I do not take them things onboard.

All the best

Faeden

Can you honestly say you have never lied? Never gossiped? Never put someone down? Never thrown a tantrum (as a child specifically). Never been angry at someone? Never coveted something else? Never selfishly put your own needs before others?

He who is without sin, cast the first stone. This is what Jesus said and highlights the fact that everyone has done wrong. Sin does not have to be this great inhumane act which is noticeable. Simply not putting God first is a sin. God created us. He created us for a purpose. And I know it's a bad example, but if I create something for a purpose, then it is useless if it does not fulfil that purpose.

All this aside though, it is a very negative position to focus on the begging forgiveness part. Think about what God had to do to provide this forgiveness. The punishment for sin is death, and God selflessly and sacrificially took on human form and died in our place. A death no one would want, yet God willingly hung on that cross, at any point able to snap his fingers and say "it's not worth it". This is love - not that we have loved, but that God loved us and came down to die in our place.

Well, that's what I believe anyway,

Regards, PA

Who said anything about burning in Hell? Hell is simply eternal separation from God. And when one lives their life not wanting to follow God, then what else do you expect?

regards, PA

Edit: To answer some of the posts on "original sin", I'm not sure I necessarily believe that to be the case. Yet as my last post suggested, can anyone truly say they have never done a wrong thing. Babies aside, when one grows mature enough to make a decision, this is where one can choose to do the wrong thing. A childish tantrum because you are selfish and want another chocolate. A lie to your parents that you didn't break the toy box. It is wrong to do such. We may not be born with original sin, but we are inherently sinful.

We should not judge others. To say: You are going to hell is a judgmental, evil act. However, when one says something like "From my understanding of the bible, those who do not follow God are destined to be separated from Him eternally (Hell)". It's a fine line, and I guess it comes down to motives. If you say someone is going to Hell because you want to scare them or put them down or make yourself feel better etc, then that is wrong. If you are simply explaining your faith as you understand it, and not accusing, then I don't see anything wrong with it. I personally prefer to laud the glories of heaven as opposed to the fear of Hell.

Hope this makes sense,

Regards, PA

I'm not TaintedDoughnuts, but I hope you don't mind me answering this thread



The Bible does not elaborate on this. Honestly we do not know what happens to those who have never heard the word of GOd. It only speaks of those who have heard and rejected.



I do not necessarily believe the Genesis story as a literal account of creation. I believe God is behind it all, and that is the point of Genesis. Anyway, assuming there were others' around before the individual's known as Adam and Eve, as before, ultimately I do not know, the Bible does not elaborate. It does however say that we will all be judged according to what we had done. Read into that what you will.



And the name Santa is an anagram of Satan. And dog is God backward. Oooooohhhhh. Spooky



You too dude

I will answer the question the best to my ability. A child is born into sin but will not be held accountable until they are old enough to know what sin is. If a child who is 3 says a bad word they aren't sinning in my opinion they just didn't know they did wrong. They might have heard this bad word from a tv show or at wal-mart. But the fact is a child is going to reach an age of accountabilty and then they must ask for forgiveness of sins they do after that.

So original sin is what? sorry but what you just said doesn't make any sense to me in respect to the other posts or original sin

I think it is similar to mine. There is no such thing as "original sin" specifically. though we are inherently sinful and when one comes to the stage in their lives in which they have the ability to choose to do right or to do wrong, then they are held accountable for their actions.

Hope this helps, regards, PA

After 20 minutes of reading this thread all I can say is, I'm so tired of the christian community laying blame on others for their human failures. A child is born without failure or fear and is indoctrinated into those human issues. Inevitably they will, because they are human, have these issues come up in their lifetime, but the blame for them should lay on the person not on a fairytale of adam & eve or some ficticious god. Place the blame on yourself people, that's where it belongs.

This is where all the confusion and consequently fear and doubt comes into religion. Everyone has their own ideas and beliefs. We all know what we believe but we cant explain it to anyone else to MAKE them believe the same as we do.

Like I said, it is your life experiences that help shape what you believe when it comes to religion. And no one is on the same plane at the same time. It was like with that boyfriend I told you about the other day. When my grandmother was dying he thought I was a horrible person for wishing she would just go on a pass because she was in a lot of pain and there was nothing else that could be done. He didn't understand how I could feel that way. But he had never been through a situation of watching a loved one suffer through a very long terminal illness so it didn't make sense to him.

Does that make sense? LOL!

But when you don't understand something you either fear it or reject it. That doesn't mean that the idea is wrong or that you are for rejecting it. It just means that you aren't in a place to understand it yet. You may or may not ever get to a place where it makes sense. Either way, its ok. LOL!

But there are somethings that just cant be explained. No matter how you look at it, no matter how much proof you search for. And then you have to decide if you believe it just on faith or if you reject the idea completely. So many things in religion is like that. I mean, there is so much in the bible alone that is hard to believe. And there is no way to prove most of it. So you have to decide if you CHOOSE to believe it or not.

I don't blame anyone for not believing the bible. I don't understand why some that don't believe feel such anger at those who do. I guess it makes them seem naive or stupid that they can believe things like a man who walked on water and so on.

I think that religion and Christianity would go so much further if they took the bible out of it and just concentrated more on what God is. But the bible has been touted as the "Word of God" for ages and I am guessing that they aren't going to stop relying on it now. But when I hear about how this bible was written by human men and translated so many times and whatnot, well, I have a hard time believing that what we have now is anything close to what the bible was meant to have been.

So, what I believe..I choose to believe. And I cant prove it to anyone if what I believe is true or why. I don't expect anyone else to believe the way I do and I don't expect that my beliefs will stay the same forever.

Ok...enough of this. Do I have you completely confused now? Because I think I am. LOL!!!

(ps...again, when I say "you" I mean people in general, not you specifically.)

Hi Paranoid Android



No! I have lied, and I have hurt people in my life, and I am truly sorry for it, I did not blame a devil however, or blame it on the idea that I am sinful, I blamed it on my self, and I asked those I hurt for forgiveness, and put the blame solely on my shoulders, as it was me and me alone that did the wrong, not a sinful me, just a selfish and ignorant me, in time I am sure ill forgive my self too.



I am not god, but I would never create a living thing with feelings and emotions that might end up in hell, just because that life did not worship me.



It is very negative yes, that is why I do not buy it, I did not bring it up to attack anyone’s individual beliefs, as you have shown not every Christian believes in original sin and being born into sin, but many do, and that is why I brought it up, if you do not believe in it then do not feel so offended, its directed at causing an interesting debate, for both Christians that believe in it, and those that don’t, and even for atheists and those of other religions to put there point across. There is no point in me glossing things over, and pretending that there are not people out there than do believe that we are born into sin, because there are many of them, and they are growing in number.



So being we are all going to die, does it matter whether we are bad or not? we have already had our punishment handed out, we cant escape our punishment, death is inevitable. Did people before Jesus life forever before the punishment of death came about, or did they just die and ceased to exist?



Well we agree there, I believe that hell is being void of god and love, god is love, so without love you are in hell, can you imagine a world where love did not exist? Look at all these religious extremists around the world Christian Muslim or otherwise. do they preach love? No, I was not aiming this thread topic at you personally PA, I was aiming it at those that believe what it is I am talking about.

When I talk about the people burning in hell thing, I am basing it on the millions around the world that do believe people go and burn in hell, you might not believe in hell as in a fiery place, but millions do, again there is no point in me glossing over what it is I am talking about.



I have heard about god in many different versions in fact, and I did not reject god, I believe in god, and I believe god is the creator of all and everything, and is the force of everything that is love in the universe, I just do not wish to give god a name, and do not believe I have to give god a name because he/she will punish me, I am sure god understands that we are all puny when it comes to the vastness of god, and we do not have to get his name and personality 100% right, but just know that love and tolerance is the right way forward. To reject god is simply to live life with a focus on ego, hate, anger, greed, intolerance, fear and ignorance.



HEHE yes I knew about that, but Santa is St Nicholas, its just a coincidence, you could find many anagrams if you look hard enough into the English language. On the dog thing if you look at the default personality of a dog they give unconditional love, a godly thing that humans have been trying to master for 1000s of years, I strongly believe that dogs are like angels, and are closer to god than most human beings. What animal including the human one can be treated so evilly and forgive so quickly?

The English language has developed over time where Christianity was at the forefront of its society, its inevitable that its going to be entwined into its language.

All the best
Faeden

Hi maryJo



I understand you perfectly and its a shame more people do not think more like you do. Some people just do not understand that we are all individuals, and all have separate minds, and what might work for one person, might not work for another. We all have difference experiences that make us who we are.

Wishing your grandmother not to be in anymore pain or not to suffer is called compassion, who wants to see someone they love suffer?

No offence, but it sounds like your Ex boyfriend lacks compassion. God forbid it, but I wonder if his opinion on that would change if he was ever in that same situation?

Some people are so ignorant and blinded by fear of the unknown, that they become blinded to the blatantly obvious, and rational and logical thinking becomes distorted.

Its just good you are intelligent enough that you have not had your common sense twisted by those around you

All the best
Faeden

LOL! Well, I dont know about my commen sense. Some people might question that. LOL!

As for the ex. Well, he was just really naive and sheltered and his family had never been through anything you could call tragic or anything. He didnt know what it was like.

I have to say though that he is a really sweet guy. I go to church with him again. And he will always hold a special place in my heart.

But at the time, I was just NOT in the same place he was and we didnt understand each other at all. Even though I was younger than him I had still been through a LOT more than he had and we just didnt see eye to eye. I had to cut it off even though he was the one I had wanted to spend the rest of my life with for soooo long.

But you grow up. You mature. Things change. And so does our outlook on life and things like religion.

It is a very personal thing. That is why I dont think anyone should be judged on what they think or feel or believe when it comes to things like religion, the bible, God, ect. From what I have been through in my life comes my beliefs...and the questioning thereof. You havent been through what I have so you might can not understand it. I dont pretend to have experienced what you might have so I maybe can not see things from your perspective.

I am also not so high and mighty to think I have everything figured out and that what I believe is 100% correct. It may be correct for me and for where I am in life right now but that doesnt mean it works for everyone else.

I could go on but I have to go get my son from school now. LOL! Have a good day Faeden! Talk to you later!

I have read 100's of stories from people that have had Near Death Experiences. Many of them say the same thing. That they are told on the other side, that we choose to come to this physical plane to learn what can only truly be learned here.
In the afterlife there is also the beforelife, the time before we make the decision to come here. They say,the NDER's, that we make an agreement with God that God will not interfere and that we will not remember our pre-birth existence. We choose to come here and learn even when we know that life will be hard.

What can't be learned in the afterlife that can be learned here? Just try to use your imagination, you are in a place of perfect bliss and you want to know what it is like to feel the pain of say, being lied to by someone that you consider a friend. You may understand the words and may even be able to kind of know it must be hurtful. But your attempted feeling of compassion can never truly be as real as the reality of how it is if you experience it directly. That explains why most people that have lived many years and have had many experiences can more easily relate to what others are going through when they face those same experiences.


If you look at the information in the Bible, although full of insightful wisdom, it just doesn't seem to make logical sense. Born in sin? Given free will yet punished for not knowing what is wrong or not resisting temptation? Many other contradictory so called truths.

So what is logical must be true, otherwise you would find many things on the earth that are illogical. But there is nothing on or in the earth that defies logic; withthe exception of the ideas of humans.

BTW, the NDER's say that we judge ourselves, not God. That makes much more sense especially if we are the ones that choose to come here. So hell will be for those that want to go there.

Hi Watzel

I agree with what you say totally, but believe if we stray to far of our agreed path divine intervention is possible.

Here is something that a medium I know did for a troubled soul.

Hello, I'm Michael, and I'm very excited because although I live in spirit now, I'm going to learn a very big lesson on the earth plane. I've spent a lot of time looking for a mother and father who will be able to help me learn this lesson, and I think I've found just the couple.

Well, it's very cramped in here and there are lots of noises too. Sometimes I can sense that something is wrong outside, but I just don't know what it is. It must be time for my birth now, as I can see a light. I'm out, isn't it great? Oh dear, someone is holding me upside down and, 'ouch', now they're smacking my bottom. That really hurt!

I'm three years old now, I can still remember my birth experience quite well, and it amuses me a bit. I know my mother really loves me, and she looks after me really well, but my father sometimes feels very distant. He's a very strong character and dominates my mummy in all matters. He drinks a lot, especially at weekends, it makes him act funny and strange, and he argues with mummy a lot, I can hear them now downstairs. I don't like it. I want daddy to love mummy.

By the time I'm six years old, their arguing has got much worse, and daddy is hitting my mummy, and shouting at me a lot, and by the time I reach ten, I really hate my daddy. Every time he gets drunk at the weekend, he abuses both mummy and I, physically and mentally. I dread the weekend coming because I don't know what's going to happen. I just wish he would leave us alone.

I'm fifteen now, and things are much worse. I try to stand up for myself and argue with my dad when he gets violent, but my mother dare not stick up for me, because she's scared of being beaten again. It's just dreadful. What's wrong with him, why doesn't he love us both? Mind, after the upbringing I've had, I just wish he were dead.

A tragedy has befallen the family. My dad has died of a heart attack at work. All the drinking I suspect. I feel stunned, only six months ago, I wished he were dead, and now he is. I don't think it was my fault, but I'm not sure, I have mixed feelings about it. He's my dad, but he has made my life hell, so I feel glad that he has gone, and perhaps life will be better for mum and me from now on.

Life is much better for me now, I have some great friends who I can bring home, and we go out on a regular basis. One of them, Tony, has just bought his first car and tonight we're going out to a nightclub.

On the way home, after the club shut, Tony started to show off his driving skills, and was speeding down a country lane. We came to a small bridge, and as we went over it, the road took a sharp turn to the left. But Tony couldn't stop the car. We hit a barn wall at about 70mph, and the car bounced off the wall and into a ditch. The force of it catapulted me out of the car through the windscreen, and into the field. The feelings I had just before the crash were of terror, but I now find myself standing up and feeling somewhat different. I could see someone on the ground in front of me, and it suddenly hit me that it was my body, and I am dead. I couldn't believe it. Whilst I was getting orientated and thinking what to do a bright white light appeared from nowhere, and shone down on me. I figured out that I was supposed to go into this light, though I suddenly was aware that my dad might be wherever that light led to, and the hatred I feel for my dad made me turn away from that light.

Wondering where else I could go, I thought of my mum, and home, so I went there instead. When I got home, mum was crying and there was a policewoman with her, she had obviously been given the news. I tried to talk to her and said, 'It's okay mum, I'm alright', but she didn't hear me, or see me. I went up to my bedroom, and sat in the corner as I used to when dad was drunk and moody. I remember thinking that my whole life had been a nightmare. All I ever wanted was to be loved by my parent's, that not much to ask for is it? I felt trapped. I couldn't go where dad was because my hatred for him wouldn't let be near him, so I stayed in my room. My mum grieved for months, and I would go down to her regularly to try and let her know I was still around. I couldn't get through to her though.

After a few months, I thought that things couldn't possibly get any worse, but I was wrong. One morning my mother came into my bedroom to sort out some of my things, when she suddenly became aware that someone was in the room with her. She was frightened for some reason and became very agitated. She ran downstairs and started crying again. I realised it was me that she could sense, and got excited, hoping that she would realise it and talk to me. My elation was short lived. A week later, my mum called in the local priest, explaining that her husband and son had died a few months ago, and that when she went into my bedroom, she could feel a presence and it must be evil. I was stunned! Why does she think I am evil? Why doesn't she understand that it's me, her son, and that I only want to talk to her and tell her everything is okay? The priest offered to do an exorcism and bless the house for her. So he came into my room, started praying to God to remove this evil sprit, and threw holy water around. Why was he doing this, I wasn't getting wet, no longer having a physical body to feel the water on me, and God was nowhere to be seen! I started to feel unwanted by anybody, and got angry. Although I had nowhere to go, I now had nothing to stay for, so I left and went out into the world alone.

I soon found another boy of my age that I was drawn to, called Darren, who was feeling angry and disappointed with life, and decided to hang around with him. I went home with him, and listened to his thoughts. He had been led on by his friends to take drugs, and this was affecting his schoolwork, making his parents very angry with him for throwing his education, and his life away. I felt they were very concerned for his well-being. When was anybody concerned for my welfare? They were really going on at him, and I thought, 'tell them to go and get stuffed!', and he suddenly did just that! This took me back, did he actually hear me, or was it coincidence? I wanted to know more, so whenever he argued with them, I would think some really nasty things, and you know, most of the time he repeated them. So I realised that I could influence what he did and said, and I found myself enjoying it. You should have seen the look on his mum and dad's faces; it was brilliant!

It got a bit boring after a couple of weeks though, and I started to wonder what else I could do. One night, they were having a big fight, and I was backing him up, influencing what he said to them. They were getting the better of him, and I thought to myself that I would really like to slam the door shut, that would shout them up. Well, suddenly the door just closed with a bang. Everyone stood still, in amazement and shock, including me! Did I do that? I must have done. It made me feel powerful, and I felt I could take on the world. Life is really going to be fun now.

Meanwhile, I noticed Darren's mum had run to the phone, and she was talking to someone and asking for help, she thought there was a ghost in the house. Whoever it was offered to come round and help, but I'd got the upper hand here, I knew what they were thinking and nobody so far had appeared to detect me, so I thought I was in control of this situation, particularly as I had found all this strength.

The next day a man and woman came round, and they sat and had tea in the lounge whilst Darren's mum explained what had been happening. The couple told them that I couldn't hurt them. Wait till you come up here, I thought, I'll show you. After a few minutes, sure enough, up they came to Darren's room, and I waited till they were far enough in the room, and thought about slamming the door. Nothing happened. So I tried again, putting all my thoughts into it, 'come on, door slam shut', but it still didn't work. Why wasn't it working? I heard the man ask the woman if she could sense anything, and she said she could sense the presence of a teenage boy in the room. He said that he could too, and he's over by the window. I got a bit worried; I was by the window! The man sat down, closed his eyes, and I heard his thoughts, he was saying, 'please come and talk to me, I would like to help you'. I ignored him, and did nothing, thinking he would go away. It came again, 'please come and talk to me, I can help you'. He continued, saying that he felt I was quite a nice young man deep down, and that I must have had a rotten life, very traumatic for most of my living years. I was taken aback now, flabbergasted even. How did he know that? His thoughts were so calming, I actually felt soothed, as though he genuinely cared. My mind went back to the abuse I suffered at the hands of my dad, and the man said, 'your trauma goes back to your father doesn't it?' I felt myself going weaker because of the memories, but how could he help me? Nobody can help me. He said to me, 'you know, we are all spirit and we come onto earth to learn. You have come to learn a very big lesson. We all have to experience life to learn, and our ultimate goal is to achieve unconditional love, but this takes a long time, and how can we know what love is if we don't experience hate, its opposite? How can we know how to be kind if we haven't experienced being unkind? And so it goes on. When you died in that accident spirit was there for you weren't they? Do you remember the light?' I acknowledged this, and said, 'there was a light, and I thought that my father was going to be there, so I turned away'.

He told me that we have free will, and that I could ask that my dad was not there waiting for me, and asked if there was anyone else who had died that had cared for me, and I trusted. I thought about my granddad, my mum's father, he was nice to me. So he replied, 'ask your granddad to come and meet you in the light'. I thought he was trying to trick me for a minute, and if I went through the light, my dad would still be there, so I didn't look. He started to tell me about the time before I was born into the earth, when I was in the spirit world, where we all come from, and I had put into action my freewill to come to the earth and learn a lesson, and that I'd made a pact with another spirit to come and help me. He asked if I had any idea who this could be, and I thought it couldn't be my dad, could it. He said yes, and explained that he had kept his side of the pact and done a good job, that I had learnt my chosen lesson very well, and that it was now time to move on, and talk with my dad about the lesson's we had learned. He said that I could still just ask my granddad to meet me, and choose to talk to my father later, when I was ready, if that's what I wanted. That is what I wanted, and he asked me to look for the light, and look for granddad, who was waiting for me. 'Can you feel his love for you?' he asked. I could. He said, 'go on, go through the light and be with him in the spirit world. Go in peace, and with my love too'. Somehow, it just felt right, and I went through the light, and was back home again.

All the best
Faeden

Soul's cannot be troubled or lost soul is an acronym for Singular outflow of universal life, minds can be troubled and lost but the soul is the essence of All that is, Namaste sheri

Watzel life is not a school its not a place to be tested, as the bible makes no sense neither does the idea of life being a school that implys that there are rights and wrongs and ways to be or not be a New take on religioun, life is meaningless other than the meaning you give it, In the realm of the absolute divinity All that is doesn't experience aspects of itself because how does one experince what it already is, according to some mythologies All that is devised a way to experience
itself thus the invention of the relative realm fondly known as dualism, but again this is a myth just as religion or reincarnation etc. etc. It really boils down to which beleif structure you want to experience and thus give meaning to your life Free will is just that no rules no ways just you and your life and your experinces that give it meaning,
If you go with the theory i talked of all paths are valid all paths have meaning and all paths lead to divinity Because all that is is "All that is whether its good to some or bad to others. Just my opionion Namaste sheri