If you had an option to continue to follow the god of your choice and live a life of chronic pain and loss where you are never sure of anything and are constintly needing more and fearing everyday or you could choose the other side and denounce god and live a pain free life and have everything you ever wanted with no fear or need which would you choose and why?

._o

That's a loaded question.

Perhaps it is silver i'd just like to know what and why people would pick one or the other

"To thine ownself be true"...option one naturally

but why?

Hard to choose... I once believed in god... and was in pain.

Now I don't... and believe in other gods.. and the pain is still there...

XD I even borderline not believing in anything.. and i'm *still* in pain...

and oddly, pain lets me know I'm still alive.

As I said - "Be True to thine ownself", if I can't be true to my beleifs and feelings, what good am I . I believe in the truth and try to prevaricate as seldom as possible . We all lie, but lying to oneself is the ultimate absurdity . That is why I opt for option one!

Bacca, hey girl great question!!!!

I choose Love as my guide , the reason I do is because of the experiences I have and to tell you turthfully my life is awesome Love takes anything and turns it into something positive, There isn't a issue that I have that isn't healed by love, Sorry this isn't real profound but life is good and I wouldn't change it except to add more love to it, I have lived the life of fear and thats all you get is more to fear, In the end its about that for me I'm not concerned with being "right " or 'wrong just livivng and loving and giving back and Life is truly beautiful and if someone doesn't get that they are missing the point. What about you Girlly??? Namaste Sheri

Ok there Sheri your answer is nothing less then what i would have expected from you

Life half the time, is painful. It has many twists and turns and pitfalls, that's what makes life interesting. Your thoughts and beliefs make you who you are and hopefully they keep you strong through the crappy times in life. I would choose the God of my choice and my beliefs over the perfect life.

The perfect life sounds great, you would never have to worry or stress, be completely happy and healthy; but to me it sounds a little like brain washing. It means you wouldn't really have to think,or feel, just living in a big happy bubble. It sounds a little bit boring to me, and eventually wouldn't you start to feel empty?

Sounds biased to me.

"which would rather have:
A big guy kick you in the head with steel toed boots, every day, OR
a dish of ice cream every day with a fly in it?"

Pointless comparison. Where are you headed with this question? What is the connection between belief and pain?

As has been said, this is a loaded question.

I'll say now I would not trade my beliefs for anything. I can only be true to myself.

What form of pain are we speaking of? Physical? Emotional? SPiritual? I think you were probably talking of physical pain. In my belief system however, similar to Sheri, all these can be taken as positives. Spiritual and emotional pain heal and make us stronger. Physically debilitating pain - I would not trade this pain only to be pained in other spiritual/emotional ways.

does this make sense.

Regards, PA

Hmm, a steel toed boot to the head, or ice cream with a fly....

That's a tough one, since I enjoy......

Oh wait, that wasn't the original question! Sorry.

Bacca, I don't believe I can answer this correctly. First, I am biased because I don't believe in any god. Second, I live with constant pain due to my incurable physical maladies.

I could say that, because of all the years I have lived with pain, I would drop my faith in a second if my physical pain could be stopped by doing so. But that is not a fair statement because I do not have a faith to begin with.

All I can honestly say is that I try to live on despite the trouble it takes to do so.

Hope this made sense.

I would choose to follow my God and take on whatever happens. Before I was a believer I suffered in pain in many ways, and after I became a believer I still have things that cause me pain. But the difference is my faith gives me comfort and peace and hope. My faith in my God gives me the will to go on.My faith is the only thing that gives me true peace.

Actually source yours is the most honest answer that i've seen I think. The point in the question was would people rather have faith over no pain.....living with chronic pain is probably one of the worst things i can imagine doing and i would do anything to get rid of it.....i suppose it's easy to say i'd never give up my faith if you don't have it and can't imagine what it's like.......Faith is a wonderful thing when the reward for it will be given either way but what if you had an option faith in god or the loss of the person you love the most?

JMPD the point is that I know people who follow so blindly that nothing else matters above and beyond the faith......for example people who don't use medical care but instead trust in their god to heal.....this is just bigger to suit everyone......


To those of you who choose love (sheri ) would you give up that belief in order to save yourself or others? would you give up that? it doesn't matter if its god or faith in general? to an atheist would you start believing in the same token? The basic point would you switch sides if it would take away your physical pain, save the life of your family, or make all your dreams come true, give you money a good spouse?

I would like to add a couple things.

To those of any religion, if you're faith brings comfort to you during the hard times in life, then I'm happy for you. If you can say that I believe in anything, it's the belief that we all need something inside ourselves to give us the strength and motivation to carry us through til the end.

I don't expect to be rewarded at the end of my life. I receive my reward each day simply by living and caring for those I love. I'm not a megalomaniac, and I don't believe I'm a god of any sort. I simply feel that my life and my time here on earth is unique in all the universe, and what I do with the time I have is all that matters.

Bacca, I don't quite understand. In my case, I don't see how suddenly choosing to believe in a religion could bring about all those changes you've mentioned. It sounds as though all my wishes would be granted simply by me becoming religious. I seriously don't think this would happen.

No source i'm saying if someone gave you proof a 100% guarantee that it would happen would you change? regardless of the consequences in the next life

The proof I'd require would truly be considered 'miraculous.' Myself and everyone I care for would suddenly be in perfect health, I'd receive unlimited funds to do with as I wish (give to charities, buy a new car every month, etc.), fall in love with the perfect woman (and, the perfect woman falling in love with me). And all this would instantaneously happen just because I became religious?

I can't answer this with any certainty because I don't think such a thing is possible.

certainties aren't needed....it's just the point that you could be made to believe....so i'd like to know if believers could be made to turn the other way as well

I think its very good to believe in yourself, and if the other things we hope for (like being reunited with loved ones) really do happen then thats a bonus. We know when were dong wrong and the bad taste in the mouth should be enough to stop wrong behaviors. I pity those who seem to be born without it.

Like the source said some suffer from constant pain. Even though sometimes medicine is provided some still suffer either physical or mental/emotional

I would not denie God because I would rather him take away my pain then throw my belief out the window while driving to Disneyworld with my daughter(to mean this is a place without pain-atleast when I am there with my daughter)

It would be bad to just give up so easily. It is like a job-mowing the yard-would you stop half way through just because the lawnmower ran out of gas,you run over the hose,oh and you happen to loose the belt thingy. You just fix the lawnmower and go on. Then you can continue mowing the grass.

Now why would I think that choice 2 would involve a pact with Satan? Because that is a long told story . . . of people who made a pact with the devil in order to get all of the above. I haven't found anyone whose life fit the description. Not a question for me, as I have no beliefs (I feel free to change how I think as new data comes along, and have no faith in any god.)

<<<< not me

So if you were in so much pain that you couldn't walk, pick up your child, sleep or work because of you pain and you were given an option to make it stop you would choose the pain to keep your faith?

Perhaps I'm dense, but I still don't grasp your connection of faith = pain/lack of faith = pain-less.

Are you intimating that belief causes pain? Or that the faithfuls god gives them pain? Or that in exchange for renouncing their faith, someone or something will take away their pain?

Are we talking emotional pain or physical pain?

Good point Bacca

I guess I'll never know for sure that I'd stay true to my faith if I was in severe pain and had the option of ending that pain. I guess I should have qualified my statement by saying I would like to think I'd stay true to my faith under these circumstances.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Regards, PA

I'm not making a connection at all really. I'm just curious to see if it's possible to make people umm switch sides whether to go from believing to not or vice versa........would it be possible and if so what would it take

it's a very good question. i'm of no particular faith, but if my family or someone i cared about was suffering, and i was told that i could make there lives better, by switching sides then i would. because i don't ever want the people i care about to suffer. so if i was given a way to stop it i would.

Sounds like a version of the story of Job then. You know, the story wherein satan supposed gets god to let him play with the life and fortune of a devout worshipper in the hopes that Job will curse god.

And it is rather difficult to gauge how one will react in any future situation. But, for the sake of argument, reverse your question: Would you start believing if you were offered an end to your pain?

And why would you want to try to change peoples beliefs anyway? Not to offend, but ever since you started on this board, you have been very anti-christian. At least it seems that way from your posts. Are you that angry or dissatisfied with that particular religion, that you are actively trying to 'convert' christians?

Again, not trying to be confrontational, but that is the feeling I get from you. Please correct me if I have misjudged your intent.

good journey

JMPD1 I think this is what is called a hypa.. hypathiecal question. Choice A or choice B there is no wrong answer. Unless you fear that your god judge on it later. In that case you can bow out gracefully and not answer.

Bacca you you got the Christians in a quandry.

Ok as for me.



Well you could do a better job of discribing multiple sclerosis than that. Throw in the loss of my wife. That is my life in a nut shell. Will I wake and be able to walk tomorrow. Will something else go wrong, will I be able to get my medication. If I could dump my religion and never live another day like this sure. You betcha. My Gods would understand though. They want me to be happy.
But, I have learned a lot from my illness, I have met wonderful people I would have never met. I'll never forget the support I got from my friends on UM when I was in the hospital relearning to walk. I have gained a new out look on life though my illness. There are things that I thought were important that have no importants to me now. I am getting an education that I wouldn't have gotten, too. But if I could have my loved one back as she was before her illness I wouldn't care about anything else. Love is all, nothing else means anything.

Darkwind this is the most beautiful tender story i have ever read, as I type this to you through tears What an amazing man you are and an inspiration thankyou so much for posting and sharing this you are an angel. namaste Sheri

I did actually say that it doesn't matter which side you are on would you switch sides........I have nothing against any religion and I sure don't want to make people leave their decided on faith i'm just curious to see if people would and if so what would it be that makes them leave....Since no one will likely ever have that option it's just a question no harm intended.......to convert christians as you said, why would I want to? what would i be converting them to? and since i don't know who on here is a christian and who isn't it's not really possible now is it?

"I'm no angel, wa'na see my tatto?"

I just live that cards that are delt me and make the best of them. That is what we all have to do. Life is about learning and it never ends, it continues even the after life. Even the Gods have things to learn. I think that is why they hang with us, they learn from us, too. Don't get me wrong I love my religion it gives me great comfort. The Gods have given me many blessings. I am better able to give comfort to others no matter what their religion, because of my experences. But an angel... hehe... you've never seen me drunk.

bacca, I have thought about your question.

I think God knows the pain we can endure. Each person has a tolerance for pain. God will allow us to suffer to an extent. Maybe to allow Satan to test our faith. Therefore I as a christian would continue to pain and have faith that one day if not on Earth that in Heaven I will be healed of all pain.

JMPD I am glad you brought up the story of Job.

I'm glad you liked it. Personally, the story leaves me feeling distrustful of a god who would allow his faithful follower to be a plaything for his adversary.

If you like, Robert Heinlein wrote a great book called "JOB: A Comedy of Justice". You will find it in the Sci-Fi/Fantasy section of the larger bookstores. Give it a read and let me know what you think.


good journey

Why would I want any God to rule over me?

Anyone that has the key knowledge to physically saving a person....can make themselves God.......Anyone that requires you worship them before they save you.....well...how selfish is that? How controlling is that?

If you have to choose between two evils...choose the one you never tried before......

Just out of curiousity do you have any idea what chronic pain is like? Have you ever had a person in your life like that? I can appriciate your faith if it is truly that strong then good for you

I am not the person you are referring to, but I still have a response. I don't stand on street corners preaching to people to reject their god. Christians stand on the street corners preaching that I should accept their god. I don't sent out tracts in neighborhoods urging people to attend meetings where I dispute their belief, Christians (and other religious) send out these tracts urging me to come to meetings where they can dispell my particular beliefs in favor of theirs. I, in fact, conduct no such meetings, as I don't like to waste my time. This is a forum where, I think, I am invited to express my skepticism, and I do so. If I am supposed to only nod my head and agree with whatever Christians (and other religious) have to say, I wouldn't bother to read what is posted here, or to respond at all. The religous who post here tell me that I am wrong in no uncertain terms . . . is there any reason I shouldn't respond with what I think in the same way? I think not!

Chronic pain are you talking about emotional or physical. Both are bad. I can't say I endure physical at all. But people do suffer from chronic illnesses other then physical ya know?

Excuse me Larry, but why are you angry? Did I say "Don't question!"? Did I say "Don't defend your beliefs"? No. I was just curious because bacca appears to have had a bad experience with Christianity, and I was wondering if that was the cause of her irritation with christianity in general.

And if you took a moment to skim through the threads that I have posted on, you would find that I generally take a dim view of ANYONE trying to declare that their flavor of faith is any better than anyone elses.

I apologize if you were somehow offended by my observations. But I still stand by them.

good journey

JMPD I don't like organized religion of any kind. Faith has nothing to do with with going to a specific building or even reading a specific book. Faith to me at least is to just know something and believe it....but also to have the ability to accept the fact that one may be wrong. And to me to have blind faith in anything is wrong as well which I see an awful lot of everywhere I look lately. People who don't care what is said or done they just stand to the belief that they have no matter what. The problem that I see with that is if and when it hits the proverbial fan all these people are going to walk around blaming someone else and be lost without whatever it is they are clinging so tightly to.....I admire people who can walk around this planet and base everything on love i think that is one of the best ways I've heard to look at things in a long time. I'm not sure if i'm making sense here and I don't really care who believes what specific faith or what not it matters to me when it gets forced on me. And that happens that's what you are sensing as anger and perhaps at time it is, I feel sorry for people who have a need to convert everyone they meet to believe what they do. I think people should do as they see best with open eyes to what they are really looking at anyway walk their own path don't ask for an opinion if you don't really want it etc.. Yes I talk a lot about a lot of things but to my knowledge that's the point i in the um right? Sorry about the ramble hope i was typing as fast as I was thinking if this didn't make sense just holler at me


101 either one....but a pain that leaves you stuck at home that no medicine can take away. A pain that leaves you unable to have a full life. Not a slight mental disorder that can be easily fixed with a pill. No physical pain that a asprine will make better. But something so constant that movement becomes difficult.......

LOL. Bacca, I rarely ever holler at anyone.

As to what you said, if someone believes "X", what difference does it make?

And if someone tries to tell you what to belief, or what to think, just say "No thanks".

We are each entitled to believe what we choose. If we happen to choose wrong, then thats our own problem, no?



good journey

I would choose option 1. Stay loyal to my God and endure through the pain. I think 101's post #33 sums up why.

Hi bacca. I wasn't referring to slight mental disorders but those that even take medicine who suffer pain. Not all man made medicines cure dieseases all together.

But I know that God can deliver a person from a disease if it were to be. God has the power to part the Red Sea why would he not take away someones pain.

That is why a Christian must learn Patience.

101 Bacca is not coming from the idea that to create a better life you deny life itself, someone in cronic pain with no hopes of it going away would not be comforted by god parting the Red Sea, I know you mean well but I don't think thats the nature of the question. Namaste sheri

Oh well when I first read the question I thought of Charlie Daniels. Nuff said!

I mean it would be selling your sole to the devil right?

101 No offense was meant, Bacca isn't religious the Devil has no meaning to you unless you are religious, its a myth to us. Namaste sheri

Well why was the question asked?

Its a very simple question 101. Basically it's the idea that faith is breakable....nothing more then that......perhaps it's to hard a question for people who don't know what pain like that is? Simply stated I want to know if anyone would give up their faith or gain faith to rid themselves of it. No devil there 101 your the one who thought that way.........

So why are you thinking of going to the devil?

On the contrary, I know of one or two Christians who are sometimes bedridden because of their chronic pain who find immense comfort in the promises and actions of the Bible.

Regards, PA

Having been the "victim" of a hard landing/crash of a Forward Air Control aircraft in Vietnam, I am also occassionally bedridden and am in constant pain even when not bedridden, yet I don't have to find comfort, my love of life and interest in my fellow man and knowledge substain me. I am glad your friends also have a crutch to substain them.