Sorry in advance if this has been posted (it's a big site and I'm getting used to it). But here is something I've been wondering. I consider myself Agnostic and want to know for those who never get a chance to decide if they believe in God (i.e. Small children, infants, people born with mental handicaps, etc...) do they automatically go to Heaven? If you never get a chance to live a life with consequences and using free will and such, do you get a freebie?

If you don't believe in God then you should pay no mind to heaven and hell.

From what I've heard posted on these boards, there are about 100 [Not overestimating] consequences for people who are undecided. Some say you will burn in Hell, some say the All Loving God will take you into his Kingdom no matter what; no one can seem to agree.

Not that it matters if you don't believe in Christianity, but I know how hard it is to forget the things you learned if you grew up Christian or God Fearing, like myself.

I, personally, although I am of no religion, believe that if God is loving and as caring as He is praised to be [Although His wrath and threats to burn in hell for eternity make me think otherwise], He would always take you in.

As Raven said, don't worry about it. You should not worry about a non-existent place (heaven or hell), these are simply mechanisms that revealed organized religion (like those dictatorial political systems) use to control their congregations! Heaven and Never Never Land are very much alike and if one is fake then so is the other and vice versa. So don't worry about it.

I very strongly believe that a small child, infact, handicapped people are ones that are given a free ticket to heaven indeed. Its just basically to show that this world we are in is nothing compared to what awaits us next, and those children and poor handicapped people will be amongst the spiritually richest in paradise. Oh and unlike the person above me who infact told YOU what to BELIEVE, im answering your question in to what I believe happens in these situations.

Peace

No, ramster, I did not tell him what to believe. I, like you, gave him advice; but unlike you I based my advice on reality not mythology (bronze age at that). He evidentially has had some Christian feeding him unsubstantiated male bovine manure about what to expect after life (as if they really know, they only have opinions based on fairy tales) and is a little upset, then you come along and with typical Christian sympathy try to add to his anguish.

There is much debate on this subject.

I was informed that unchristened babies went to neither heaven or hell, but were sent to some limbo in between called purgatory.

I understand that one of the Vatican councils in the late fifties early sixties, eliminated purgatory. Apparantly, the church could no longer afford the rent......

Some fundamental christians think that unless you follow Jesus, you are going to hell, regardless of your circumstances. As do those of the muslim faith in regards to 'infidels'.

And some folks beleive that there is no hell. Or heaven for that matter. At least not in the conventional sense of those two locales.

And still others believe that when you die, you start the cycle over again from birth.


"choose one from column 'A', and one from column 'B'.



good journey

You're being typically one sided here. How do you even know Christianity is a mthology? You dont. You say that no heaven or hell is a reality? Thats the silliest thing ive heard, you know absolutely no more than i do about an after life. So i stated in my opinion that these types of people would go to a heaven. Where was the word "Christian" mentioned in this original topic? He asked for an opinion, i gave him mine (which had no forced or evident Christian relevance) and you claim that this person EVIDENTALY had a Christian feeding him information? PLEASE...At least be better timed when trying to offend Christians, it makes you look desperate. I gave him my opinion and not "Christian Sympathy" (what is it with you and Christians..Honestly!) i gave him as your own words described advice, but i didnt cause any offence in my response whereas you have.

I personally believe that these places only exist in fairytales and story books. Since human beings have this need to visualize what they believe they had to invision a place instead of a notion.

Opposites rule the earth, north & south, good & bad, yin & yang, you see where I'm going with this?

If I were in this quandrie (I was at one time) I wouldn't waste another brain cell on it. Chalk it up to another fable and call it a day.

Get a grip!

Im sorry was i talking to you? Im referring to the post above in which the person is referring to Christians many times when this post has NOTHING to do with Christians, as i said if you're gonna try and make us look bad, at least have good timing huh- cause thats plain lame.

gentlemen!

Lets all take a breather here. No need to get annoyed with each other. Obviously, many folks here have differing viewpoints.

Mako feels as strongly about his stance as you do yours ramster.
How can we expect the world to work through its differences, if we cannot even converse civilly on an internet forum?


good journey


forgot the "h" in breather. I've been somewhat....distracted this morning.

I have always heard 13 was the age God stop's giving freebie's unless you do not have the mental ability to under stand is his word. My Grandfather was a preacher, and he believe God understood if a person did not have the mental abilities to understand the word. And therefor they would just be allowed into the kingdom of heaven.

You post it, you're fair game! I think christians are the ones that believe in heaven and hell are they not? So it is relevent.

The reason I said "get a grip" is because you were starting to sound a little whiny in that post. If you are so comfortable with your faith then you should be able to handle a few nonchristians without letting it get to you. We have our beliefs too you know and you shouldn't assume or presume anything about us. Not all of us have faith in something either.

Im sorry man i just felt like he was attacking my religion- something i try my hardest not to do to others. Basically he put Christianity into this topic when it had nothing to do with it, and im going to defend it when its being used in a bad way unjustly just like he did. He shouldnt have mentioned any religious Title (eg- Christian) or use any insulting terms when Christianity had nothing to do with the topic or question on hand. I hope you understand my sudden outburst.

ok, but you have to admit that heaven and hell pretty much are the jurisdiction of the christians.

Other religions have similiar concepts, but there is is vast differences in the execution.

Heaven and hell is pretty interesting. Im broad and open minded, and i always believed that hell was more a "personal hell"- more a place of emptyness ,lonelyness- just a feeling of not being 'whole' or 'complete' or 'satisfied'...I dont see it as an eternal burning, but an eternal emptyness.

Maybe the ideas of hell were stretched/edited...yet i still believe there is a better place and a worse off place after we die, make of it as you will..but one is pleasant, the other isnt- either way.

Please, this is ridiculous. You are seemingly assuming Heaven and Hell are real, and he is assuming they are not. You are both entitled to your opinions -- fair ones at that -- and you should have the ability to respect opinions that differ from your own. Insulting eachother and trying to defend with righteousness will only lead to more disputes; just accept a belief and get on with it; you don't have to believe it yourself.

I am going on the basic (and historically accurate) assumption that the Jews did not receive the concept of heaven and hell until the “Babylonian Exile”, when they were put in contact with the myriad of religions practiced throughout the Babylonian Empire. After the conquest of Babylon by the Persians, the Jews were exposed to Zoroasterism, with it’s concept of a good god and an evil god, of eternal punishment or eternal pleasure. When Darius II (not the famous Darius I as assumed by most Jews and Christians) allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem, it was undoubtedly with stipulations, since the Persians were famous for allowing puppet regimes to operate in their native lands as representatives of the Empire. It seems that Darius II allowed the priesthood of YHWH (who had been worshipped as the head of the Hebrew Pantheon since about 800 BCE) to act as his regents in return for being allowed to go home. This is how the monotheistic religion of Judaism go started, by combining various elements of other religions (particularly Zoroasterism) into their cult and by being the authorized representatives of the Empire. The Cult of YHWH then had the inside track of becoming the supreme religion of the Jews. Nothing supernatural to it, just good ol’ human politics! I don’t see any factor of any of Abraham’s bloody children that rings true, especially since they are all based on a political deal made 2500 years ago! Abe’s kids don’t like to admit that they took the concept of heaven and hell from a pagan religion, but then they don’t like to admit that most of their holidays come from pagans either. Incidentally Ramster, I don’t go out to insult Christians, I just tell it as it is. Christianity, Judaism, or Islam have no evidence of their validity, yet want the rest of the world to kowtow to them and their God – Sorry, not in the cards!

Yes they all do because they are not held accountable for their sins yet. God knows whether or not someone has the mental capacity to know Christ or if they are just ignoring him.

Well thanks for all the responses. My intention was not to decide if there was a Heaven or Hell. I for one lean more towards the idea that there is neither. But I really wanted to know who (if anyone) thought there were "freebies". Seems to me that if there is indeed a Heaven then there would be a bit of luck involved if I had no mental capacity to decide for myself.

Just Pondering the mystery of life.

Thanks, this site is like my morning coffee... first thing I look at when I get to work.

I believe that every soul will eventually go to "heaven" not all will at the instance of death however, for many different reasons. Its all down to our free will where we go. God does not refuse us entry, we refuse our selves entry to that place of light and love what ever you want to call it. If someone has a good heart they will go to that pleasant place, if they do not, well they will go to a place that suits there heart. Have hate, anger and fear in your heart, then expect your afterlife to suit you accordingly, but as I said before its all about free will, we have it in life, we have it in death, and just as some evil and bad people in life are ignorant to there evils or wrongs, and just as some spirits are ignorant in death as to there evils and wrongs, as both the living and "the dead" have free will equally, free will doesn’t end at the point our spirits leave its physical shell.

Spirits have free will so they can see the light so to speak and recognise the negative self that they are when they choose to, and take personal responsibility and be enlightened as to there ignorance, hence seeing the light, and then becoming apart of that light. How long an individual spirit will walk in the dark (there own person hell) away from the light (of God) is down to them, and them alone, as that is how free will works.

If someone finds them self in darkness and ignorance when in the spirit world they have no one to blame but them selves, God did not put them there, nor did a "Devil" they did, and until they stop blaming everyone else including God or a devil, and ignoring the truth as to why they are in a bad place then they will remain there.

Taking personal responsibility for our bad deeds in life is the hardest thing a living person and spiritual person can do, its one of the tests that determines the states of our hearts.

Have a think to your self are you passing that test of failing it?

So the answer to the question is that mentally ill people and handicapped people go to a good place after death yes, because they did not have the free will to be able to make conscious decisions that might blacken there heart or nature.

All the best
Faeden

This is a hard question to actually answer. If you talk to the so called rational thinkers who say reality is only what they can personally percieve, there is no heaven or hell. Those are just old wives tales, and silly mythology. That's what common sense tells you if you were to not listen to anyone and construct your own perception of reality from your own personal expericances. These people will be the ones who fall victim to the antichrist when he performs miracles for all the world to see and then the world religion when it's introduced to unite the world in peace and security. Who could argue with that? Only the ones who know this will happen.

That's why we don't bothter to listen to those people.

You don't even have to listen to very religious people who are simply going by what thier partents told them as childeren. You could consider them brainwashed.

What you should do is listen to those who have died, traveled through the afterlife realms, and then come back to tell their story. It's called the near death experiance, not because they were near death, but because they died and came back to life, closer to death then anyone else. There will be those who tell you this is fake, and it can be recreated. Those are the people who don't fully understand the near-death experiance in it's entirety.

For example Howard Storm who was a life long Atheist with no knowledge of God, or any religion, came back fully knowing of Gods existance and then became a reverend of a church. He traveled to hell and then was saved by Jesus and given a second chance to redeem himself. He came back to life with full understanding of the afterlife and the creator/God. He also brought back knowledge of the bible verifying it's validity. Pretty strange for someone who never wanted or bothered to actually read the bible before his death.

You can also read what it's like to go to Heaven, and what happens to those who choose Suicide.

This site should answer most of your questions about heaven.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research18.html

In the RC church, the age is 7 when it is expected to know right from wrong. As to what your grandfather said, so Heaven is going to be populated with lots of the mentally deficient, and for that matter, the criminally insane? Wow, what a great place that is going to be . . . not. As far as I am concerned, Heaven is as Mako said . . . nothing but mythology, as is Hell.

Honestly, I don't know. The Bible doesn 't go into this too much. My opinion is that a loving God will not hold it against someone if they do not have the mental capacity to make a choice to follow Him or not. But that IS just an opinion.

Regards,

Scoobysnack, I too am interested in NDEs and have read quite a bit on them. Two things that we agree on, they are not the activity of a dying brain and they seem to prove the existence of a god. There is nothing about them that shows which god it is though. Therefore existence of a god does not automatically make it the God of Judeo-Christianity, it could be the Deist Creator, Inti the Incan Sun God or Ahura Mazda the Persian god that the current YHWH is modelled after. Still, there is circumstantial evidence of an afterlife (duration unknown), but you will never get the truly skeptical to buy into it. Am I not right Hyperactive?