"The first philosophy (Metaphysics) is universal and is exclusively concerned with primary substance." - Aristotle

Ultimatley, everything is composed of one thing, space.

"primary substance" as stated by aristotle relates to the one fundamental building block of this universe and is synonymous with god... even though he may not have realized this connection the fundamentals of god and primary substance are very similar.

1) God must exist everywhere at once
1) Primary substance must exist everywhere at once.

2) God is all encompassing, meaning the sum of everything = god
2) Primary substance as a whole encompasses everything that has been and ever will be.

3) Gods will denotes the universe, god has determined everything that will happen already, even before it happens.
3) Primary substance, as a chemical substance(because matter(chemicals) is composed of the primary, by studying the common similarities of each atom and their behaviors we can postulate the behaviours of primary substance, therefore reffering to it as a chemical substance because all chemical behaviours are present because of the interactions of the primary), must have some properties and therefore would translate these properties into its fractal divisions... Primary substance would exist timelessly, there would be no quanta of primary substance, it would not have seperations and it would not change over time. Primary substance, being what matter is, would denote the universe, everything would follow the path layed out by this primary substance.

I say fractal divisions because everything is a representation of the whole... I mean, if everything is composed of the same primary thing then whatever is composed of this primary thing inherits the properties of it... therefore in a timeless universe all there would be is this primary substance fully and completely, meaning that since time seperates the universe for us into parts and sequences that we cannot hope to change this fact, therefore everything is determined by this primary substance.


So you may have noticed I made acouple assumptions, 1) I assumed that everything is composed of something... 2) I assumed that god is not a seperate entity from the universe... 3) I assumed that the universe is non-local meaning that there is no center, and no relative position to anything.

But these assumptions come from philisophical certainties and observable truths, they have proof.
1) everything being composed of something is a commonly accepted truth and has always been.
2) god being one wih the universe is the only explanation for A) god being everywhere at once, god being omnipotent, C) god having complete controll, and D) god using pure will to implement 'his' (I abhore the use of gender when referring to god) desires upon the universe.
3) Non-locality has some proof to back it up, in 1994 a scientist by the name of Alain Aspect performed probably the most important experiment of the 20th century, he discovered quantum entanglement... One mixed photon was split into two parts and sent in opposite directions, one part encountered a filter and had its polarity changed, the other instantly changed to the corresponding polarity... this happened instantly... This directly contradicts einsteins assumption that no communication can travel faster then light and implies that the universe is non-local.
Non-Locality

Non-Locality in general reffers to everything being fundamentally connected... to assume this is to say the universe exists in zero space and zero time... which is what is meant by the timeless infinite universe.

I guess what I am really inferring here is that "god" can be known as space-time (even though this fabric of the universe cannot exist as two things ie: space and time).

the difficulty is in that the term "god" is used as a placeholder throughout the history of man to cover the yet explained. you are doing the same here. Actually, you may be doing even worse by going back to aristotle.

In other words, space-time is space-time, and the interconnectedness of the universe is just that. Layering on terms such as god does nothing and means nothing to anybody other than those seeking for make the word fit their own model.

Hyper I agree with you. I see many people who make a god fit to their life and it isn't even one that has been in "existance" so to speak. But I like how you worded it. It was very well explained,

Stix

God is a generic term used to mean many different things based on large part the awareness of the one using it, The absolute is just that The infinite presence of all things, beyond all space and time forever, complete and perfect, There is only existance which requires no cause to think otherwise is a false construct of the mind basically. I AM THAT I AM kind of says it all. Namaste sheri

STIX - Aristotle won't be happy with you for appropriating his theories to make this theory. He firmly believed in the Pantheon of Gods and Goddesses, routinely declaiming anything that went against them as "subversive".

That aside, it's an interesting theory. I can't say I personally agree with it, but that's nothing new.

Regards, PA

Stix, I am not going to be a full nay-sayer here. I don't really buy your theory, but I can see you put a lot of thought into it and it just might be closer to the truth than most of us would admit!

It sounded like, to me anyways, that all he was saying is that "god" is nothing but our modern term of space-time. It sounded more like an elaboration on Aristotle than a new theory.

-just my two cents

peace

Aristotle lived too long ago to be correct... thats why he wasn't... I am using the most basic of his philosophies to support a theory, becasue in hindsight, the most basic truths are absolute.

Space-time... more specifically being the fabric of space AND time... meaning the medium which composes the timeless universe, would denote everything which is, everything that was or everything that ever will be.

The timeless universe is an interesting concept... becasue time is all there is that stops everything from happening at once... without time, all there is is god... correct? because what is the goal of the universe but for gods children to become god themselves?

i disagree. removal of time does not in any way suggest being left with "gods" of any kind.

Stix how are you defining God??? In the realm of the absoulte All that is is all that is , Its existance is its meaning, The mind defines decides delineates, discovers meaning determines goals etc. etc. In the realm of non linear everything is already what it means,

Hyper elaborate if you would thanks Namaste sheri

The removal of time means all you are left with is everything (everything without division!) ... and isn't that how we define god? as being everything fully and completely?
as I have explained, since god is ultimate controll, and god has ultimate knowledge and god exists everywhere at once... then god is everything which is basically space-time or the fabric of the universe... but bear with me...

I'm not too sure what you mean sheri... "discovers meaning determines goals"... There is no such thing as a realm of non-linear... but there is a realm of no-linear... this is gods realm. (because non-linear implies a combination of many linearities producing a multi-linear universe instead of a universe with no need for direction, which is better described as no-linear)

You are talking more philosophy then is necessary, I am combining the philosophy of god with the science of god.

This may be alot to swallow... but here it goes...

there are two types of order... grouping order and symetry order...

As the universe expands and cools we move further from a grouping order and closer towards a symetry order... matter and force are defined by spacial curvature, without the curving of the fabric of the universe we cannot experience matter and force.

Currently we are in a state of combined order.

symmetry order in perfection, is this on the right:

on the right there is only oneness... or the absolute... complete balance... a realm of no direction, no relativity, no time.... the no-linear realm.

Our universe exists within limits, these limits, mainly the laws of physics, direct the universe towards an ultimate goal, the omega point. since we now have knowledge of these limits and of the direction of the universe we realize as the universe expands it also cools, it will eventually cool to a point of absolute zero.
In a laboratory we cannot create a substance of no temperature, its impossible... this is the universe telling us that everything must reach this point at once... thats why the universe is explanding, so that everything can be far enough away for this point to be reached... but as I mentioned before, matter is spacial curvature, and the expansion of the universe is the lumpyness of space-time becoming smooth, or grouping order converting to symetry order...

becasue the force of grouping order is the force of gravity... gravity is the ultimate force of the past... becasue before the big bang there was infinite gravity... then something prevaded that gravity... it was the future... the ultimate force of symmetry... or what we call "dark energy" or "dark matter" that mysterious force pushing everything apart.

If you do not believe that something can be known for certain you are a fool.

I will say that right now.

so with the removal of time what are we left with? perfect symmetry, no matter, no force, only god... becasue god is not a material substance like water or rock, but god is what you don't see, what you can't touch...god is harmony, and harmony is oneness and oneness is perfect symetry... so if you ask yourself where does life fit into all this you realize that life is a result of the future force of symetry prevading gravity, life is diversification.... all life I can think of is symmetrical...

God is smooth flat space... and flat space is not empty... it is composed of the same thing as curvey space but it has only reached perfect harmony.

to truly understand what I mean, please read this essay "Zero is not nothing and Flat Space is not Empty"
undivide

So what happens when we reach perfect symmetry? when the linearity of time stops? well if time is linear and goes towards the middle... to the right for the positive, to the left for the negative... and it reaches equilibrium... where else is there left to go but in? multispatiality... multiple dimensions...

Stix

Phew, I like to keep things simple myself , so you are catching the nuance that its all connected and your trying to work it out ??? You said you are tying to show that God and Philosophy of God are the same???I'm seeking to understand you so we can have a more meaningful conversation???I see science as the tool we use to understand that which is divine. I really don't think there are realms of this or that I was using my mind to percive what you are suggesting. I'm not sure if you are wanting to debate or rap about your theory Namaste sheri

Sheri - I'm still developing this theory, the connections between indivisible matter as space-time and god...
I'm trying to show that science is beginning to come to an understanding of something which is synonymous with god...

I don't really understand it fully myself, like you I am still learning and evolving on this theory...
God in my oppinion is saving us from where we were... we are in the midst of saviour right now, we experience gods light as we become conciouss beings, the force of god, that which perpetuates our DNA (and every other living thing) permeates gravity and spreads out the universe slowly to allow us to evlove in order to survive through the stages of the universe until the end of time when we finally become one with god and the universe... BUT we have free will and have the power to destroy ourselves... since the universe is large, the destiny of life may be fulfilled by OTHER LIFE FORMS, if we were to fail...

the force of god, that which promotes equality and indivision, comes from the future, and when it combines with the force of the past, gravity, that which promotes grouping order and seperation, you get the force of nature which causes the universe to change and evolve.

Stix

It appears you are scientific in your leanings, Science IMO Is the tool with which we understand and recover that which has always been there, As the mind is the tool we use to navigate the world of dualism in which we live, I like to keep things simple meaning that anyone can grasp the material from the dumbest to the smartest.
To me the camera is a projection of the inner workings of the eye, ect. ect. I agree I'm with you Science and God are alot more similar than has been currently thought.
"all legs lead to the elephant" I also feel ( and I do anticipate the hissing and claws to come out on this) but nonetheless I think creation and evolution are the same to. Basically evolution is the process by which creation becomes manifest. Namaste sheri

in science we postulate the existance of "things" yet descovered to make models work.

you merely applying that which works for you to postulate the existance of some gods (hote how arbitrarily accept and dismiss concepts based on whether or not they work with achieving your desired conclusions). Define what you want and then work the model backwards to fit it. not good science at all!

IN A WAY, god is everything, but he wants you to worship straight to him, not the bowl of soup, him.

heis space in a way because he made everything.

well mabye I'm out on a limb here... but I could revise my theory to say that god is not space-time but god is the force that causes the universe to change... that force from the future I tried to explain earlier... the "dark matter" or "dark energy" which causes this universe to exist in the first place...

God is just all that is All form, all possibilities, The absoulute the term
god is limiting and subject to interpretationTo surrender what one thinks leads to "god" realization, not away from it the only limits we impose are the thoughts the beleifs we erect as prison bars. I think what comes up to be worked out is not to incorporate another way to beleive but to let it go and in the letting go the truth becomes obvious. Namaste sheri

I believe science CAN explain god... but you are right also, but truth comes as a feeling, not as knowledge.

Stix you are very enjoyable to rap with its wonderful for me to meet another who thinks for themselves, I agree with you I think science is very close to explaining god. Namaste sherii

indeed, some day the knowledge of man will explain enough (not everything) of the physical universe to have accounted for all the things attibuted by some to the supernatural. At that point, there will no longer be any argument for the existance of the supernatural (including those things some would call gods).

Let me explain the hindu and chinese idea of god. According to hindu scriptures there are many gods but at the top of the heap lies Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. The current understanding is that Brahma is space-time, Siva is matter-energy and Vishnu is the intelligent element which keeps a balance between the other two and is responsible for harmony in the Universe. I have also read that they are the same Christian trinities!
The chinese religion taosim avoids god altogether and explains reality as tao which is all inclusive and is a replacement of the idea of god. Tao is like universal law of gravitation, it avoids the "person-like" childish god of most of the religions.

I agree and am very glad to meet you sheri!


yes, exactly, although absolute knowledge is forever out of our grasp, absolute facts are always within our reach!


wow, thats really cool mabye Im a taoist at heart?
I've heard that all fundamental religions stem from the same myth, they are just different versions of the same story.... like the christian trinities and the three hindu gods, or jesus and buddah (the stories are strickingly similar)...
Eastern philisophical concepts are constantly being validated by science... its pretty funny actually, one day western philosophy will take over the world, but when that day comes is the day that western philosophy becomes synonymous with eastern philosophy!!

Mystic not to discount what you contributed just adding another perspective the trinity explains how we are threefold beings operating at differernt leverls the mind the body and the spirit, great post I don't kow much about theTao but I have always thought it might be interesting a friend of mine once said it would suit me. Namaste sheri