Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Who or what created the pyramids in ancient Egypt?
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
Ancient World Wonders
QUOTE(steve tt @ Dec 29 2005, 09:29 AM) [snapback]997081[/snapback]

Eight sides!!!!!!!!!! the great pyramid Cheops is the only pyramid that turns in on its self. This concave effect is not visible from the ground. It was discovered quite by accident in 1940 by a British Air Force pilot, P. Groves, he was flying over the pyramid. He happened to notice the concavity and captured it in the now-famous photograph. The centres of the four sides are indented to an extraordinary degree of accuracy and form the only eight sided pyramid known. All pyramids in the ancient world were bespoke, one off’s to be copied and improved on. From the step pyramid at Saqqara the Meidum pyramid and the bent pyramid at Dahshur all evolved improving on their structural stability. Pyramid building was an evolving process; techniques of construction must have changed from one project to another. So why did the builders of this monument alter its shape, what advantage did this concave effect have? Many theories have been suggested, they were intended to increase the stability of the pyramid's mantle [i.e. casing stones]" (The Pyramids, 2001, p. 195).
Flinders Petrie noticed a hollowing in the core masonry in the centre of each face and wrote that he "continually observed that the courses of the core had dips of as much as ½° to 1°" (The Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh, 1883, p. 421).John Williams, author of Williams' Hydraulic Theory to Cheops' Pyramid wrote that "the only advantage that I can see - and it is a great one - for having a concave face on a structure is to contain extremely high internal pressures - the type of pressures that would result from using a hydraulic method of my description. Think of this in terms of an egg shell, arch or gabling." This explanation is also voiced by other purveyors of the "pump-theory" such as Edward J. Kunkel (author of The Pharaoh's Pump, 1962) and Richard Noone (author of 5/5/2000: Ice: The Ultimate Disaster, 1982)
It’s my contention that the flail prevented angular friction caused by the lateral force exerted on the rising stone. So the solution to counter act this lateral force, is to angle the ramp inward towards the centre of the pyramid. Now the direction of pull is parallel to the ramp (the rope A is parallel to the ramp B this is a scaled down version but I think you will get the idea), the effect of lateral friction against the rising stone will disappear compared to the previous pictures. If this is the case we can deduce that the great pyramid did in-fact have four ramp entrances. A practical zig zag ramp system was now in place, positioned on each of the four sides of the pyramid also the ability to stop and rest at each stage of the stones assent, takes the risk out of the construction. If this change in design was to prevent the persistent use of the flail and the problems associated with lateral friction. One can deduce that pyramids that don't display the eight sided design, should show evidence of the flails past use on the central wall and support this theory. This concave effect also leads one to theorise that to obtain the best possible angle horizontally and vertically the djed was positioned at the outer most edge of the pyramid ( see previous posts). If this was the case, the potential to lift a further block simultaneously on the opposite sides of the pyramid comes into play. The single ramp theory and the spiral ramp all have one entrance. The men in that scenario move the stones to the construction site and more importantly return to the quarry for their next stone. Having your men relatively stationary, just using the energy to rotate the Djed machine would take the strain out of the construction. Now four djed winches positioned at each corner of the pyramid could simultaneously lift eight blocks. The maximum angle the tow rope can comfortably work at is approximately 40 degrees (variable), whereas the ramp angle for the ascending stone is fixed at 10 degrees.(again see past posts).
Also it seems more than a coincidence that there is a Nile Delta town called Zagazig?
[attachmentid=22047]


Flaw: the angles are wrong. There's no way that the egyptians would settle for such a flawed way of transporting stones like that. The idea is good, however, if a rope if pulled from around a spindle like the picture shows then the object would far off the ramp to the left. And there are no evidence to whether the egyptians used wheels? Possible, but nothing shows it. Just another theory to throw under the rug I'm afraid.
steve tt
QUOTE
undefinedThe weird thing about the pyramids is that they line up with the star system of SIRIUS (not the satellite radio company)

those pesky doors!!!!!!! the so called air shafts, as they have been referred to; controversy has surrounded the use of these shafts since their discovery. The sole purpose of the pyramid is to protect the pharaoh and his belongings, in preparation for the afterlife, not to expose him to a change in humidity and the possible effects of bug infestation. These shafts have been sealed since construction and therefore discount the theory of airshafts. Yet another theory for their use is that they are star shafts, also highly unlikely, as the angles of the shaft alternate throughout the pyramid. A specific angle would have been maintained during the construction, I find it ridiculous for anyone to claim that the shafts could ever have pointed precisely to any particular star. The UFO syndrome or any other high Tech applications or some kind of hydrogen power plant can also be discounted. No evidence for the use of hydrogen has been found. Lastly a spirit or soul shafts, this is the favoured theory but its idea rests on a religious base which ultimately cannot be proven one-way or another, but it would involve a radical rethink of the Egyptian religion as it is currently understood.
To me the shaft is in-fact an energy shaft, a means of allowing ropes to pass through the body of the pyramid and power a fixed winch or Djed in the king’s chamber, to a second pair of Djed winches positioned at the exterior of each shaft hole. A team of men provided the power to the exterior Djed; this in-turn transferred the required torque through the rope to the internal chamber Djed. [attachmentid=22060] Controversy has surrounded the shaft doors, On September 17, 2002, a National Geographic robot, specially designed to traverse the southern shaft to the blocking stone, the newly discovered northern shaft door appears to be very similar to the one in the southern shaft, including the presence of a pair of copper "pins" or "handles." The southern shaft "door" was discovered in a 1993 investigation conducted under the auspices of the German Archaeological Institute. If you accept the fact that ropes passed through the body of the pyramid to power the internal winch a means of holding this rope at the top of the shaft during times of inactivity would be needed. For example, each evening as work stopped a means of temporarily sealing the shaft stopping animal life or debris from obstructing the passage would be needed. Also a means of holding the rope at the top of the shaft would be desirable, to do this one would fashion a stone with two sharp pins. At the end of a work shift the rope would be held in position with the aid of these copper pins. The stone would be re positioned and the shaft would be temporarily sealed. The north and south shaft doors are normally pictured with the pins pointing to the floor, however I theories they would lookwith the pins uppermost, in this fashion the rope or ropes could be hooked onto the pins and held safely in position. So to me the airshafts are in-fact energy shafts, allowing rope to pass through the body of the pyramid and rotate an internal winch or Djed. SUPPORTING EVIDENCE CAN BE FOUND IN OLD PHOTOS During early examinations of the pyramid invaluable photographs were taken showing the condition prior to any internal alterations. One of these early photographs was the great step. The step is positioned approximately 3 meters from the anti room and at the top of the grand gallery. You can see left extensive ware to the edges culminating to a round shape on its center edge. This ware is undoubtedly the effects of the rope rubbing on the red granite block.
[attachmentid=22061]
Ancient World Wonders
QUOTE(steve tt @ Dec 29 2005, 04:21 PM) [snapback]997508[/snapback]

those pesky doors!!!!!!! the so called air shafts, as they have been referred to; controversy has surrounded the use of these shafts since their discovery. The sole purpose of the pyramid is to protect the pharaoh and his belongings, in preparation for the afterlife, not to expose him to a change in humidity and the possible effects of bug infestation. These shafts have been sealed since construction and therefore discount the theory of airshafts. Yet another theory for their use is that they are star shafts, also highly unlikely, as the angles of the shaft alternate throughout the pyramid. A specific angle would have been maintained during the construction, I find it ridiculous for anyone to claim that the shafts could ever have pointed precisely to any particular star. The UFO syndrome or any other high Tech applications or some kind of hydrogen power plant can also be discounted. No evidence for the use of hydrogen has been found. Lastly a spirit or soul shafts, this is the favoured theory but its idea rests on a religious base which ultimately cannot be proven one-way or another, but it would involve a radical rethink of the Egyptian religion as it is currently understood.
To me the shaft is in-fact an energy shaft, a means of allowing ropes to pass through the body of the pyramid and power a fixed winch or Djed in the king’s chamber, to a second pair of Djed winches positioned at the exterior of each shaft hole. A team of men provided the power to the exterior Djed; this in-turn transferred the required torque through the rope to the internal chamber Djed. [attachmentid=22060] Controversy has surrounded the shaft doors, On September 17, 2002, a National Geographic robot, specially designed to traverse the southern shaft to the blocking stone, the newly discovered northern shaft door appears to be very similar to the one in the southern shaft, including the presence of a pair of copper "pins" or "handles." The southern shaft "door" was discovered in a 1993 investigation conducted under the auspices of the German Archaeological Institute. If you accept the fact that ropes passed through the body of the pyramid to power the internal winch a means of holding this rope at the top of the shaft during times of inactivity would be needed. For example, each evening as work stopped a means of temporarily sealing the shaft stopping animal life or debris from obstructing the passage would be needed. Also a means of holding the rope at the top of the shaft would be desirable, to do this one would fashion a stone with two sharp pins. At the end of a work shift the rope would be held in position with the aid of these copper pins. The stone would be re positioned and the shaft would be temporarily sealed. The north and south shaft doors are normally pictured with the pins pointing to the floor, however I theories they would lookwith the pins uppermost, in this fashion the rope or ropes could be hooked onto the pins and held safely in position. So to me the airshafts are in-fact energy shafts, allowing rope to pass through the body of the pyramid and rotate an internal winch or Djed. SUPPORTING EVIDENCE CAN BE FOUND IN OLD PHOTOS During early examinations of the pyramid invaluable photographs were taken showing the condition prior to any internal alterations. One of these early photographs was the great step. The step is positioned approximately 3 meters from the anti room and at the top of the grand gallery. You can see left extensive ware to the edges culminating to a round shape on its center edge. This ware is undoubtedly the effects of the rope rubbing on the red granite block.
[attachmentid=22061]


Looks convincing, but they must have used a lot of rope as it would rip quite easily. And to do that much damage...
angrycrustacean
QUOTE(fantazum @ Dec 29 2005, 09:08 AM) [snapback]997193[/snapback]

I was wondering how long you would resist rising to the bait hee hee


How childish.
NoTC
QUOTE(angrycrustacean @ Dec 29 2005, 04:24 PM) [snapback]997585[/snapback]

How childish.



I agree.

As for the topic, it's taken me a better part of the day to read the entire thread and some of the links provided. All very interesting theories.

I've put some thought into it, and as much as I'd like to believe aliens had their hand in this, or anything else for that matter, I have to say, I don't believe in that theory anymore. I think it's more than probable that humans did in fact do this on their own. Since their are no markings, I can't say the Egyptians did it, but whoever did it, were human.

The reason why people can't fathom humans building such a giagantic structure is partial to time. The amount of time we estimate it took, 20 years, is inconceivable to most people because of how we see technology today. We see skyscrapers go up in a matter of a couple years. We're used to instant gratification. It is also my belief that our hope that there may be other life in the universe fuels belief in something else build the pyramids. We want to believe in aliens, so we'll go as far as believing and propagating our believe through what we view as "proof" of their existence.

I'm sure someone will demand I show them "proof" that aliens didn't help. If you think about it, even though the pyramids may be visible from the moon, what's the point? I can't possible see them as being a beacon for "visitors." If aliens can travel hundreds of light years, I'm sure they can find Egypt without needing a large building.

I believe aliens may exist. But there's no radio antenna or anything on the pyramids firing off some signal to say "Hey, right here!!" I don't believe aliens had anything to do with it. Reading this thread today made me realize it, based on the repsonses from some of the fanatics. Belief isn't a bad thing, but sometimes logic is a good enough explanation.

This is one of the best threads I've ever read : )
fantazum
[quote name='aquatus1' date='Dec 29 2005, 12:01 AM' post='996395']
Ahhh, if only I had something grander to say... hmm.gif



"The first thing to realize is that the stonework on the pyramid is the same as the stonework on all the Egyptian temples, tombs, and other masonry. When this question is asked in context of the pyramid, the implication is that this is a problem that applies solely to the Great Pyramid, and not the the other 100+ pyramids in the area, or the thousands of buildings and temples that they built. "
Wrong. what other pyramids in egypt are built in exactly the same way as the great pyramids? Nearly every other pyramid and temple complex in egypt other than the three great pyramids at Giza were structural failures and damaged by earthquake.


"Now, granite comes in various forms, of course, and the great majority of the pyramid is made from the softer sort that can be worked relatively well with the copper tools. "
Wrong again. The egyptians used the hardest granites and they didnt cut them with copper chisels because it is a physical impossibility to cut granite with a copper chisel.Many archaeologists have tried it.

"The ancient Egyptians were a good several hundred years advanced in the art of stonemasonry, compared to the other civilizations, and working the granite, while tedious, was nothing mysterious. It was, in fact, commonplace"
You have actually made a point here.In fact the egyptians didnt seem to have any problem at all with cutting and shifting any type or weight of stone. Do you know that no scientist has figured out how the egyptians could cut such vast blocks of granite,move them and place them into position? No scientists has yet figured out how the Sarcophagus in the King's chamber of the great pyramid was cut from a solid block of granite? Certainly not by men wielding lumps of dolorite. Established archeology still cant figure out how the egyptians could cut then move by river for some 200 miles , 300 ton granite obelisks.

"Now, granite comes in various forms, of course, and the great majority of the pyramid is made from the softer sort that can be worked relatively well with the copper tools. By the great majority, what I am refering to is the 'fill-in' stone used inside the pyramid. Unlike the harder andesite granite that made up the load-bearing walls of the corridor and the outer framework of the pyramid (not to be confused with the limestone facing)"
The 'great majority' of the pyramid is made from limestone not granite.

"The rough-hewn blocks were made in the same way that the softer blocks where made. Instead of using the copper tools for fine work, they were instead used for basic chiseling. Deep and narrow holes were made in tight rows, and then stuffed with a dried, porous wood. A small barrier of clay was placed around the hole, and water was poured into it. Over the period of 24 hours, the water would soak into the wood, making it expand, and eventually making the large granite block split off from the original piece. Smaller blocks were made in the same way, until the block was in managable 10 ton pieces that could be maneuvered around by experienced quarrymen."
Archeologists actually found ablock of granite in an ancient quarry in egypt.It had been split from a larger piece and they did indeed find the remains of the holes that had been drilled in it. They also discovered that the holes had been drilled with a spiral fluted drill...of the type that one would find in a modern engineering workshop.
I once took the trouble to watch a stonemason in britain cut a block of granite and he used a similar method. His drill was 4 feet in length and diamond tipped. He told me that the drill bit was good for 80 cuts before it blunted.
I somehow just cant imagine the egyptians using a 4 feet long copper drill.


"In the ancient past, technique was the key to everything. Copper chisels dulled quickly, but were easy to sharpen, unlike copper blades. Dolerite hammers, for all intents and purposes, shaped themselves; as they wore down on one side, the stonemason merely turned the tool to a different face and continued."
A team of archeologists once attempted to cut and shape a block of exactly the same granite that the egyptians used. They first tried copper chisels.These blunted with three blows. They then tried to use dolorite blocks.After four hours of hammering away they discovered they had made no impression at all on the granite block. Yet the egyptians are believed to have quarried 300 ton granite obelisks from quarries using the dolorite block method.
Azalin
QUOTE(Knightmeir @ Dec 30 2005, 12:08 AM) [snapback]997689[/snapback]

I agree.

As for the topic, it's taken me a better part of the day to read the entire thread and some of the links provided. All very interesting theories.

I've put some thought into it, and as much as I'd like to believe aliens had their hand in this, or anything else for that matter, I have to say, I don't believe in that theory anymore. I think it's more than probable that humans did in fact do this on their own. Since their are no markings, I can't say the Egyptians did it, but whoever did it, were human.

The reason why people can't fathom humans building such a giagantic structure is partial to time. The amount of time we estimate it took, 20 years, is inconceivable to most people because of how we see technology today. We see skyscrapers go up in a matter of a couple years. We're used to instant gratification. It is also my belief that our hope that there may be other life in the universe fuels belief in something else build the pyramids. We want to believe in aliens, so we'll go as far as believing and propagating our believe through what we view as "proof" of their existence.

I'm sure someone will demand I show them "proof" that aliens didn't help. If you think about it, even though the pyramids may be visible from the moon, what's the point? I can't possible see them as being a beacon for "visitors." If aliens can travel hundreds of light years, I'm sure they can find Egypt without needing a large building.

I believe aliens may exist. But there's no radio antenna or anything on the pyramids firing off some signal to say "Hey, right here!!" I don't believe aliens had anything to do with it. Reading this thread today made me realize it, based on the repsonses from some of the fanatics. Belief isn't a bad thing, but sometimes logic is a good enough explanation.

This is one of the best threads I've ever read : )


Very much agreed. No doubt in my mind that humans did in fact build the pyramids. Like Knightmeir said, we as a civilization expect things to be build in a short amount of years, however, this was not the case in ancient times. Many builders that constructed things, such as the Greek Pantheon, St.Peters Basilica , and certain English Castles died way before the structure was ever finished. Would be a weird feeling designing a building, and starting to build it, well knowing that you will never see the end result of it in your lifetime. The Egyptians had a large number of slaves, and this helped build their giant structures, which I believe would of took 30 + years to create.
fantazum
QUOTE(Knightmeir @ Dec 30 2005, 12:08 AM) [snapback]997689[/snapback]

I agree.

As for the topic, it's taken me a better part of the day to read the entire thread and some of the links provided. All very interesting theories.

I've put some thought into it, and as much as I'd like to believe aliens had their hand in this, or anything else for that matter, I have to say, I don't believe in that theory anymore. I think it's more than probable that humans did in fact do this on their own. Since their are no markings, I can't say the Egyptians did it, but whoever did it, were human.

The reason why people can't fathom humans building such a giagantic structure is partial to time. The amount of time we estimate it took, 20 years, is inconceivable to most people because of how we see technology today. We see skyscrapers go up in a matter of a couple years. We're used to instant gratification. It is also my belief that our hope that there may be other life in the universe fuels belief in something else build the pyramids. We want to believe in aliens, so we'll go as far as believing and propagating our believe through what we view as "proof" of their existence.

I'm sure someone will demand I show them "proof" that aliens didn't help. If you think about it, even though the pyramids may be visible from the moon, what's the point? I can't possible see them as being a beacon for "visitors." If aliens can travel hundreds of light years, I'm sure they can find Egypt without needing a large building.

I believe aliens may exist. But there's no radio antenna or anything on the pyramids firing off some signal to say "Hey, right here!!" I don't believe aliens had anything to do with it. Reading this thread today made me realize it, based on the repsonses from some of the fanatics. Belief isn't a bad thing, but sometimes logic is a good enough explanation.

This is one of the best threads I've ever read : )


really?...this is a pic of the optimum shape of radar reflector as fitted to all sea going vessels.

http://www.newenglandmarine.com/images/jpg...ctor%20copy.jpg

wierd huh? maybe the pyramids were specifically designed that way in order to be located.
On the very top of the great pyramid was a pyramidion believed to have been made from a mixture of alloys known as electron. This would not only have acted like a strobe in bright sunlight but also would have acted as a very high intensity radio wave reflector.
angrycrustacean
QUOTE(fantazum @ Dec 29 2005, 07:27 PM) [snapback]997782[/snapback]

On the very top of the great pyramid was a pyramidion believed to have been made from a mixture of alloys known as electron.


Believed by whom?
Pison
QUOTE(PLO @ Dec 27 2005, 05:18 PM) [snapback]994559[/snapback]

"what possible literal connection can be made?"

that the orion nebula is one the most active stellar nurseries in our region, and the egyptians kept banging on about thats where we came from.


I think it is possible to find out where we literally came from, but it will take time and patience, not taking what a group of people say as truth. Metaphors, memes and language, visible or symbolic, are all very important tools, but they usually imply non-literal terms.

When you say "the egyptians kept banging on about", it sounds like we, or most people, are not getting the point.

I think the egyptians wanted us to think of Orion, yes, but not just because they thought this is where we literally came from. The stellar nurseries located in Orion tie into the egyptian reincarnation idea. When stars go supernova and destroy everything surrounding it, the remains of the solar system that once was remains there in space, waiting to be "reborn" by a sonicwave resulting from a nearby explosion of a star that just went supernova. Death creates life, we are stardust or nuclear waste.


(Star A, birth)______(Supernova, death of the star/solar system--particles remain frozen)

--Sonicwave from death of Star A--

(Star B, birth--particles spin from the Sonicwave/death of Star A)_____(Supernova, death)

--Sonicwave "rebirths" Star A--

and over and over...

*

My original question was:

Other than just a mimic of the belt of Orion, what possible literal connection can be made [by the alignment of the pyramids]?

To expand on that question, is it possible that this particular alignment of the pyramids was used to obtain these ideas of stellar "rebirth", thereby speading the ideas through memes to the surrounding community?

This sounds like a Wal-Mart...or a school.
NoTC
QUOTE(fantazum @ Dec 29 2005, 08:27 PM) [snapback]997782[/snapback]

really?...this is a pic of the optimum shape of radar reflector as fitted to all sea going vessels.

http://www.newenglandmarine.com/images/jpg...ctor%20copy.jpg

wierd huh? maybe the pyramids were specifically designed that way in order to be located.
On the very top of the great pyramid was a pyramidion believed to have been made from a mixture of alloys known as electron. This would not only have acted like a strobe in bright sunlight but also would have acted as a very high intensity radio wave reflector.


Nice picture. But the capstone was originally supposed to be gold, and from the research I've done, it was never placed on the pyramid. Furthermore, the pyramid isn't a "sea going vessel." As I said before, I find it hard to believe that aliens would travel dozens, hundreds, if not thousands of light years, and they would need a radar dish to locate a building the size of God. That's kind of insulting if you think about it logically.

I lived in Vegas for 8 years. Don't know if you've heard of the Luxor, but the light that comes out of the top of that thing can be seen from space. How come the aliens haven't taken interest in that? It's pretty impressive, as are many other items of interests built by man.

If you want to tell me that they built a radar reflector or any type of beacon on top of the pyramid, I'd like to see solid proof of this before I'll believe aliens built the pyramids or even helped with it.
PLO
Pharaoh Khufu apparently built them, wheres the proof for that?

radar thingys do sound abit far fetched.
PanZero
lemurian civilization ---> se H. P. Blavatsky book ''Secret doctrine''
fantazum
QUOTE(Knightmeir @ Dec 30 2005, 02:06 PM) [snapback]998196[/snapback]

Nice picture. But the capstone was originally supposed to be gold, and from the research I've done, it was never placed on the pyramid. Furthermore, the pyramid isn't a "sea going vessel." As I said before, I find it hard to believe that aliens would travel dozens, hundreds, if not thousands of light years, and they would need a radar dish to locate a building the size of God. That's kind of insulting if you think about it logically.

I lived in Vegas for 8 years. Don't know if you've heard of the Luxor, but the light that comes out of the top of that thing can be seen from space. How come the aliens haven't taken interest in that? It's pretty impressive, as are many other items of interests built by man.

If you want to tell me that they built a radar reflector or any type of beacon on top of the pyramid, I'd like to see solid proof of this before I'll believe aliens built the pyramids or even helped with it.


if the pyramids were not built to be seen....then what was the point of building them?
So far as the radar reflector idea goes....you raised to topic not me, but the fact remains that the pyramid shape is a perfect reflector of radio waves. Whether the egyptians knew this I can hardly say, but it remains an interesting fact.
And if as you say the 'aliens' would have no trouble locating earth then why has S.E.T.I (Search For Extraterrestrial Life) been sending signals out into space in an attempt to make other inhabited worlds aware of our existance?
And so far as the theory about the capstone not being placed on the top of the great pyramid, well this is nonsense. Why would the egyptians go to such enormous lengths to finish the great pyramid in every other respect yet omit to make the final finishing touch?
Why did the ancient Nazca indians go to the trouble of cutting patterns and lines into the Nazca desert covering many square miles when they knew their work could only be seen from the air?
angrycrustacean
QUOTE(fantazum @ Dec 30 2005, 01:36 PM) [snapback]998582[/snapback]

And if as you say the 'aliens' would have no trouble locating earth then why has S.E.T.I (Search For Extraterrestrial Life) been sending signals out into space in an attempt to make other inhabited worlds aware of our existance?


His point was that if the aliens were capable of finding Earth at all, then they would have no problem finding Egypt. I hope for the day in which you cease chronically misinterpreting everything that is said to you.
NoTC
QUOTE(fantazum @ Dec 30 2005, 02:36 PM) [snapback]998582[/snapback]

if the pyramids were not built to be seen....then what was the point of building them?
So far as the radar reflector idea goes....you raised to topic not me, but the fact remains that the pyramid shape is a perfect reflector of radio waves. Whether the egyptians knew this I can hardly say, but it remains an interesting fact.
And if as you say the 'aliens' would have no trouble locating earth then why has S.E.T.I (Search For Extraterrestrial Life) been sending signals out into space in an attempt to make other inhabited worlds aware of our existance?
And so far as the theory about the capstone not being placed on the top of the great pyramid, well this is nonsense. Why would the egyptians go to such enormous lengths to finish the great pyramid in every other respect yet omit to make the final finishing touch?
Why did the ancient Nazca indians go to the trouble of cutting patterns and lines into the Nazca desert covering many square miles when they knew their work could only be seen from the air?


You may wish to read the entire post prior to replying to them from now on.

I said if they'd have no trouble finding earth, then they wouldn't have any trouble finding anything on it, had they traveled light years to arrive here.

Furthermore, there is no proof the egyptions built the pyramids.

Also, if you do some searching, you'll find that there is no evidence a capstone was placed on the pyramid. If you do some searching, you'll read that there may have been an objection to capping the pyramid and therefore, a capstone was never placed on it. In fact, long after the pyramid was built, some idiots decided to try to dissasemble it.

If you didn't have cameras to an alarm system, would you cap your chimney off with a huge chunk of gold, maybe shingle your roof with it?

rolleyes.gif
PLO
if the pyramid didnt have a capstone, then neither did the other two or any other pyramid, Kinda defeats the whole point of building a pyramid, infact it becomes something entirely different. But then we'll never know if the golden cap stone was looted by arabs or not eh.
angrycrustacean
QUOTE(Knightmeir @ Dec 30 2005, 04:35 PM) [snapback]998792[/snapback]

You may wish to read the entire post prior to replying to them from now on.


I've mentioned that to him before, as well. rolleyes.gif
Deep_MindQuest
http://www.biblestudysite.com/25.htm Their strength is seen in "the giant cities of Bashan" to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem. http://home.att.net/~warplover/index3.html The Giant Cities of Bashan and Syria's Holy Places
fantazum
QUOTE(Knightmeir @ Dec 30 2005, 11:35 PM) [snapback]998792[/snapback]

You may wish to read the entire post prior to replying to them from now on.

I said if they'd have no trouble finding earth, then they wouldn't have any trouble finding anything on it, had they traveled light years to arrive here.

Furthermore, there is no proof the egyptions built the pyramids.

Also, if you do some searching, you'll find that there is no evidence a capstone was placed on the pyramid. If you do some searching, you'll read that there may have been an objection to capping the pyramid and therefore, a capstone was never placed on it. In fact, long after the pyramid was built, some idiots decided to try to dissasemble it.

If you didn't have cameras to an alarm system, would you cap your chimney off with a huge chunk of gold, maybe shingle your roof with it?

rolleyes.gif


errr yes I see now.....so what your saying is that the aliens would arrive in orbit around earth with a rand-macnally guide to earth?
Or....are you saying that the ancient egyptians knew that the star people would one day return and have no problem finding them without the help of very large pyramid shaped objects?
Gosh...now you say there is no proof that the egyptians built the pyramids. So if there is no proof they built them then how could you know that no capstone had been placed on them?
I am however interested in your assertion that no capstone had been placed on the great pyramid. Where did you get this from.....I want to see the source of your 'research'.
fantazum
QUOTE(PLO @ Dec 30 2005, 11:45 PM) [snapback]998805[/snapback]

if the pyramid didnt have a capstone, then neither did the other two or any other pyramid, Kinda defeats the whole point of building a pyramid, infact it becomes something entirely different. But then we'll never know if the golden cap stone was looted by arabs or not eh.


We do know that the great pyramid suffered some damage from a very large earthquake that hit the region. The covering of polished capstones were dislodged by this event and the local community collected the debris and used them for their own buildings. Its quite possible that the pyramidions were also dislodged or just simply removed.
I am actually quite astonished that anyone would claim that the pyramidian caps had never been fitted to the tops of the pyramids as not doing so would be illogical and completely pointless.
fantazum
QUOTE(angrycrustacean @ Dec 30 2005, 09:49 PM) [snapback]998630[/snapback]

His point was that if the aliens were capable of finding Earth at all, then they would have no problem finding Egypt. I hope for the day in which you cease chronically misinterpreting everything that is said to you.


lol...so like your friend you are assuming that the spacemen would have a rand-macnally guide to earth? "Gorgol,we have arrived at blue planet called earth,let us stop and visit the pyramids and have egyptian beer"
lolololol
NoTC
QUOTE(fantazum @ Dec 31 2005, 02:12 PM) [snapback]999708[/snapback]

errr yes I see now.....so what your saying is that the aliens would arrive in orbit around earth with a rand-macnally guide to earth?
Or....are you saying that the ancient egyptians knew that the star people would one day return and have no problem finding them without the help of very large pyramid shaped objects?
Gosh...now you say there is no proof that the egyptians built the pyramids. So if there is no proof they built them then how could you know that no capstone had been placed on them?
I am however interested in your assertion that no capstone had been placed on the great pyramid. Where did you get this from.....I want to see the source of your 'research'.



QUOTE(fantazum @ Dec 31 2005, 02:25 PM) [snapback]999719[/snapback]

lol...so like your friend you are assuming that the spacemen would have a rand-macnally guide to earth? "Gorgol,we have arrived at blue planet called earth,let us stop and visit the pyramids and have egyptian beer"
lolololol


I like how you attempt to condescend everyone you speak to. Honestly, it's not welcome. If that's what you'd like to do, I suggest you go elsewhere.

You're missing the entire point. IF aliens are able to find our planet from dozens if not more, light years away from here, then I think they're more than capable of finding something on earth.

To give you a clue, since you completely overlook logic, I'll explain original.gif

We've got the moon mapped out pretty well, and almost all of it has been done from afar. We've got plenty of Mars, if not all, mapped out with lots of pictures. Therefore, IF aliens exist, and they've visited our wonderful planet earth, more than likely, they'd have already mapped this place out before they even landed. If you were an astronaut and wanted to land on the moon, would you just go land there without picking a spot first? No, you'd have telescopic photos of the moon, which you would use to find a suitible landing spot. You would have to understand the properties of the moon before you attempted a mission there because you really don't want to go unprepared, do you?

We didn't go to the moon and build a pyramid and slap a cute little radar "beacon" on top of it so we could have a reference point to find the moon or where we landed decades ago. I think NASA still keeps a pretty good record of that.

So absolutely YES, if aliens exist, and if they visited before the pyramids were built, then they would in fact already have a guide of some sort that they themselves carried with them. The fact that you'd assume something so advanced wouldn't think to keep a record of where they landed in the first place is insulting.

"Gorgol, gee, I hope those humans built a pyramid or three shaped liked a star system of some sort because these old coordinates across the universe sure can be shady." Your anaology of needing a rand-macnally is like me driving across the country, knowing which state, city, and block to arrive at, and not being able to find a house on that small city block with only 9 houses on it. Might as well paint a sign on the side of the great pyramid that says, "Hey, THIS pyramid, not the other two!! We might not see you!!"

There is some proof a capstone was constructed, though it doesn't show that it was ever placed. Also, it wasn't in the form of a radar, or an antenna, nor did it come with an iPod.

Since there are no markings ON or INSIDE of the great pyramid, it does not prove that Egyptians built it. The "proof" will lie within actual diagrams and dimensions, written and intact, probably buried somewhere.

All we have still, is interpretation from archeologists.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/excavation/hawass.html (proof that it was probably constructed and Egyptians had been in fact involved in construction. AGAIN, it will always be debated until someone finds solid evidence with dimensions and diagrams depicting the actual construction).

The actual placement of the capstone is still not known:
http://www.crystalinks.com/gpstats.html

More speculation:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/pyramid.htm
It also goes on to say that the great pyramid may have already existed before the reign of King Khufu. The first link above SUGGESTS he had some hand in it's construction, however, that could just as well be a glyph drawn up later on by heresay passed down by the generations. However, there is a written reference of a temple restoration near the pyramids by King Khufu which suggests that the pyramids already existed at that time.

So again, we still don't have solid proof of who built the pyramids. If we did, then it would be common knowledge and this discussion wouldn't be taking place, would it? :::GASP::: Since we don't know who built them for sure, we can also say we don't know if the capstone was ever placed!! Imagine that.

It's common in human nature to demand proof for what we don't understand. So you have have some sources for my "research." It's called "google." If you'd like more "information," then you could try using "google" yourself or maybe pay "attention" to the "discussion" at hand rather than give everyone your "attitude."

rolleyes.gif
The Skeptic Eric Raven
Man is more than capable of building wonders even back then. We didn't need help from outer space. That makes us sound stupid.
fantazum
QUOTE(Knightmeir @ Dec 31 2005, 10:35 PM) [snapback]999827[/snapback]

I like how you attempt to condescend everyone you speak to. Honestly, it's not welcome. If that's what you'd like to do, I suggest you go elsewhere.

You're missing the entire point. IF aliens are able to find our planet from dozens if not more, light years away from here, then I think they're more than capable of finding something on earth.

To give you a clue, since you completely overlook logic, I'll explain original.gif

We've got the moon mapped out pretty well, and almost all of it has been done from afar. We've got plenty of Mars, if not all, mapped out with lots of pictures. Therefore, IF aliens exist, and they've visited our wonderful planet earth, more than likely, they'd have already mapped this place out before they even landed. If you were an astronaut and wanted to land on the moon, would you just go land there without picking a spot first? No, you'd have telescopic photos of the moon, which you would use to find a suitible landing spot. You would have to understand the properties of the moon before you attempted a mission there because you really don't want to go unprepared, do you?

We didn't go to the moon and build a pyramid and slap a cute little radar "beacon" on top of it so we could have a reference point to find the moon or where we landed decades ago. I think NASA still keeps a pretty good record of that.

So absolutely YES, if aliens exist, and if they visited before the pyramids were built, then they would in fact already have a guide of some sort that they themselves carried with them. The fact that you'd assume something so advanced wouldn't think to keep a record of where they landed in the first place is insulting.

"Gorgol, gee, I hope those humans built a pyramid or three shaped liked a star system of some sort because these old coordinates across the universe sure can be shady." Your anaology of needing a rand-macnally is like me driving across the country, knowing which state, city, and block to arrive at, and not being able to find a house on that small city block with only 9 houses on it. Might as well paint a sign on the side of the great pyramid that says, "Hey, THIS pyramid, not the other two!! We might not see you!!"

There is some proof a capstone was constructed, though it doesn't show that it was ever placed. Also, it wasn't in the form of a radar, or an antenna, nor did it come with an iPod.

Since there are no markings ON or INSIDE of the great pyramid, it does not prove that Egyptians built it. The "proof" will lie within actual diagrams and dimensions, written and intact, probably buried somewhere.

All we have still, is interpretation from archeologists.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/excavation/hawass.html (proof that it was probably constructed and Egyptians had been in fact involved in construction. AGAIN, it will always be debated until someone finds solid evidence with dimensions and diagrams depicting the actual construction).

The actual placement of the capstone is still not known:
http://www.crystalinks.com/gpstats.html

More speculation:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/pyramid.htm
It also goes on to say that the great pyramid may have already existed before the reign of King Khufu. The first link above SUGGESTS he had some hand in it's construction, however, that could just as well be a glyph drawn up later on by heresay passed down by the generations. However, there is a written reference of a temple restoration near the pyramids by King Khufu which suggests that the pyramids already existed at that time.

So again, we still don't have solid proof of who built the pyramids. If we did, then it would be common knowledge and this discussion wouldn't be taking place, would it? :::GASP::: Since we don't know who built them for sure, we can also say we don't know if the capstone was ever placed!! Imagine that.

It's common in human nature to demand proof for what we don't understand. So you have have some sources for my "research." It's called "google." If you'd like more "information," then you could try using "google" yourself or maybe pay "attention" to the "discussion" at hand rather than give everyone your "attitude."

rolleyes.gif


I dont think you really have the intellectual capacity to engage in a rational debate and I surprise myself by replying to your confused reply.
Firstly, if the egyptians really did build the great pyramids as beacons to the 'gods' the egyptians did so in the knowledge that their 'gods' would need an instantly recognisable beacon with which to guide them. You keep asserting that the spacemen would possess an exact knowledge of where egypt was due to their previous visits. But the egyptians wouldnt know this would they? duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Dont forget the principle purpose for which the pyramids were built: to return the soul of the pharoah to the stars from which he/she came. remember that the pharoah was a divine being. So why not build the pyramids to have a dual purpose: a machine to send the god pharoah back to the heavens from which he/she came, and a beacon to the gods should they wish to visit?

Then you say: "There is some proof a capstone was constructed, though it doesn't show that it was ever placed. Also, it wasn't in the form of a radar, or an antenna, nor did it come with an iPod.
Since there are no markings ON or INSIDE of the great pyramid, it does not prove that Egyptians built it. The "proof" will lie within actual diagrams and dimensions, written and intact, probably buried somewhere."

yes I seeeeeee.......so what your saying (if I have interpreted it correctly) is that firstly: nobody knows who built the pyramids at Giza but that we are pretty sure the capstones were not placed on them. But the proof will be found one day? Perhaps in the big vault of ancient lemurian secrets under the penis of the big Sphynx?
Dont let your shrink read this kiddo.
angrycrustacean
QUOTE(fantazum @ Dec 31 2005, 04:31 PM) [snapback]999857[/snapback]

I dont think you really have the intellectual capacity to engage in a rational debate and I surprise myself by replying to your confused reply.


Ironically, your own shockingly "intelligent" arguments include such phrases as, and I quote, "duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!".

QUOTE
Dont forget the principle purpose for which the pyramids were built: to return the soul of the pharoah to the stars from which he/she came. remember that the pharoah was a divine being. So why not build the pyramids to have a dual purpose: a machine to send the god pharoah back to the heavens from which he/she came, and a beacon to the gods should they wish to visit?


Gods would need beacons? We're not talking about average Joe Smith here, we're talking about gods. It would be a pretty pathetic god that couldn't find their own subjects without their help. laugh.gif The Egyptians put a great amount of faith into their religion, just like in any religion. Do Christians put up big shiny things in their yards to let God know where they are? No. They trust in their God and his omnipotence/omniescence.

QUOTE
yes I seeeeeee.......so what your saying (if I have interpreted it correctly) is that firstly: nobody knows who built the pyramids at Giza but that we are pretty sure the capstones were not placed on them. But the proof will be found one day? Perhaps in the big vault of ancient lemurian secrets under the penis of the big Sphynx?
Dont let your shrink read this kiddo.


What grounds do you have to say that on? To my knowledge, we have not and never will have found absolutely everything in Egypt or indeed anywhere. There's as much reason to believe proof will be found as there is to doubt it.

Besides, Knightmeir also said what I just said in his last post, which unsurprisingly you didn't read fully. I submit it for your perusal.
QUOTE

So again, we still don't have solid proof of who built the pyramids. If we did, then it would be common knowledge and this discussion wouldn't be taking place, would it? :::GASP::: Since we don't know who built them for sure, we can also say we don't know if the capstone was ever placed!! Imagine that.


You speak of Knightmeir's post being confused; Yet your own post did nothing to reinforce your actual opinion. For the first portion of your post you slung insults, then for a shocking few sentences made a minute bit of sense, and then for the other half you repeated exactly what was already said by Knightmeir, in a vaguely sarcastic manner, yet you did nothing at all to disprove it.

You call this a debate but it's not. It's people making intelligent responses and then you adamantly refusing them unless they agree with your ridiculous theories. I'm rapidly tiring of your increasingly useless posts and insults. Didn't you, at one point, say 'This ends my participation in this forum.'? I'm still waiting for you to fulfill that. rolleyes.gif
NoTC
QUOTE(fantazum @ Dec 31 2005, 05:31 PM) [snapback]999857[/snapback]

I dont think you really have the intellectual capacity to engage in a rational debate and I surprise myself by replying to your confused reply.
Firstly, if the egyptians really did build the great pyramids as beacons to the 'gods' the egyptians did so in the knowledge that their 'gods' would need an instantly recognisable beacon with which to guide them. C
Dont forget the principle purpose for which the pyramids were built: to return the soul of the pharoah to the stars from which he/she came. remember that the pharoah was a divine being. So why not build the pyramids to have a dual purpose: a machine to send the god pharoah back to the heavens from which he/she came, and a beacon to the gods should they wish to visit?

Then you say: "There is some proof a capstone was constructed, though it doesn't show that it was ever placed. Also, it wasn't in the form of a radar, or an antenna, nor did it come with an iPod.
Since there are no markings ON or INSIDE of the great pyramid, it does not prove that Egyptians built it. The "proof" will lie within actual diagrams and dimensions, written and intact, probably buried somewhere."

yes I seeeeeee.......so what your saying (if I have interpreted it correctly) is that firstly: nobody knows who built the pyramids at Giza but that we are pretty sure the capstones were not placed on them. But the proof will be found one day? Perhaps in the big vault of ancient lemurian secrets under the penis of the big Sphynx?
Dont let your shrink read this kiddo.


angrycrustacean makes some good points. Why would the Gods need beacons?

And who said that the pyramids were for burial? Who said the shafts were meant for their souls to escape to the stars? If you look around, you'll find that pyramids are misconceived as burial chambers. In fact, it is commonly believed that pyramids were built as sacred sites, not graves or tombs. If a Pharoah was a divine being, are you implying that he needed a tunnel pointing to a star to figure out where he needed to go to? Again, it's SPECULATION and you're trying to force it as fact. Were you aware that the names of the chambers inside the pyramids were only given names because no one knew what else to name them?

Furthermore, you mentioned something about aliens needing the pyramids needing a reference point and the Egyptians knew they would return.... correct? Here's your quote (and complete contradiction to what you already said): "You keep asserting that the spacemen would possess an exact knowledge of where egypt was due to their previous visits. But the egyptians wouldnt know this would they? duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

Excellent job in establishing your superior intellectual capacity, especially with the "duh" part. It truly adds a revelation to the subject at hand.

As far as the point you keep missing... It's very plausable that some evidence will be unearthed. There's a lot of dirt and sand to dig up in the middle east and I highly doubt we as humans have found everything there is to offer.

I'd also like to state that I don't believe aliens had anything to do with any of this. I was simply trying to point out what I believe to be a pointless theory, based on the superior technology of any beings that had the ability to travel so far.

As for my "confused" reply, I think I've done fairly well in establishing my opinions in a logical order, with reference to why I believe these things. You on the other hand, have not. My shrink will be proud.

Please take your bitter, childish rants elsewhere.
fantazum
QUOTE(angrycrustacean @ Dec 31 2005, 11:56 PM) [snapback]999875[/snapback]

Ironically, your own shockingly "intelligent" arguments include such phrases as, and I quote, "duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!".
Gods would need beacons? We're not talking about average Joe Smith here, we're talking about gods. It would be a pretty pathetic god that couldn't find their own subjects without their help. laugh.gif The Egyptians put a great amount of faith into their religion, just like in any religion. Do Christians put up big shiny things in their yards to let God know where they are? No. They trust in their God and his omnipotence/omniescence.
What grounds do you have to say that on? To my knowledge, we have not and never will have found absolutely everything in Egypt or indeed anywhere. There's as much reason to believe proof will be found as there is to doubt it.

Besides, Knightmeir also said what I just said in his last post, which unsurprisingly you didn't read fully. I submit it for your perusal.
You speak of Knightmeir's post being confused; Yet your own post did nothing to reinforce your actual opinion. For the first portion of your post you slung insults, then for a shocking few sentences made a minute bit of sense, and then for the other half you repeated exactly what was already said by Knightmeir, in a vaguely sarcastic manner, yet you did nothing at all to disprove it.

You call this a debate but it's not. It's people making intelligent responses and then you adamantly refusing them unless they agree with your ridiculous theories. I'm rapidly tiring of your increasingly useless posts and insults. Didn't you, at one point, say 'This ends my participation in this forum.'? I'm still waiting for you to fulfill that. rolleyes.gif



You just said: "Do Christians put up big shiny things in their yards to let God know where they are? No. They trust in their God and his omnipotence/omniescence."

ERRRRRR.....YES THEY DO THEY ARE CALLED CHURCHES AND CATHEDRALS. DUHHHHH!
fantazum
QUOTE(Knightmeir @ Jan 1 2006, 01:06 AM) [snapback]999924[/snapback]

angrycrustacean makes some good points. Why would the Gods need beacons?

And who said that the pyramids were for burial? Who said the shafts were meant for their souls to escape to the stars? If you look around, you'll find that pyramids are misconceived as burial chambers. In fact, it is commonly believed that pyramids were built as sacred sites, not graves or tombs. If a Pharoah was a divine being, are you implying that he needed a tunnel pointing to a star to figure out where he needed to go to? Again, it's SPECULATION and you're trying to force it as fact. Were you aware that the names of the chambers inside the pyramids were only given names because no one knew what else to name them?

Furthermore, you mentioned something about aliens needing the pyramids needing a reference point and the Egyptians knew they would return.... correct? Here's your quote (and complete contradiction to what you already said): "You keep asserting that the spacemen would possess an exact knowledge of where egypt was due to their previous visits. But the egyptians wouldnt know this would they? duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

Excellent job in establishing your superior intellectual capacity, especially with the "duh" part. It truly adds a revelation to the subject at hand.

As far as the point you keep missing... It's very plausable that some evidence will be unearthed. There's a lot of dirt and sand to dig up in the middle east and I highly doubt we as humans have found everything there is to offer.

I'd also like to state that I don't believe aliens had anything to do with any of this. I was simply trying to point out what I believe to be a pointless theory, based on the superior technology of any beings that had the ability to travel so far.

As for my "confused" reply, I think I've done fairly well in establishing my opinions in a logical order, with reference to why I believe these things. You on the other hand, have not. My shrink will be proud.

Please take your bitter, childish rants elsewhere.



WHOOPS YOUVE DONE IT AGAIN!. YOU JUST SAID:
"And who said that the pyramids were for burial? Who said the shafts were meant for their souls to escape to the stars? If you look around, you'll find that pyramids are misconceived as burial chambers. In fact, it is commonly believed that pyramids were built as sacred sites, not graves or tombs. If a Pharoah was a divine being, are you implying that he needed a tunnel pointing to a star to figure out where he needed to go to? "

i THINK YOU NEED TO REFER TO ESTABLISHED ARCHEOLOGY LOLOLOL BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT ALL ESTABLISHED EGYPTOLOGISTS BELIEVE: THAT THE PYRAMIDS WERE TOMBS FROM WHICH THE PHAROAH'S SOUL (A DIVINE BEING, DONT FORGET THAT THE PHAROAHS CLAIMED DESCENT FROM THE GODS) COULD ASCEND TO HEAVEN.
So errr....where did you get you own revisionist version of ancient egyptian history from?
aquatus1
For some reason, I have been having difficulties replying to specific posts. I don't know why, but hopefully this will post.

QUOTE
Wrong. what other pyramids in egypt are built in exactly the same way as the great pyramids? Nearly every other pyramid and temple complex in egypt other than the three great pyramids at Giza were structural failures and damaged by earthquake.


Wrong? mellow.gif Antagonistic, much?

Let's not play the misleading questions game. Obviously, every other structure is no more built exactly the same as the Great Pyramid, anymore than a corner store in Manhattan is built in the exact same way as the Empire State building. The techniques for a structure the size and mass of the Great Pyramid are obviously going to be different than those of the much smaller and differently designed temples, however what we are discussing is the shaping of the stones themselves, and they were shaped in very much the same manner as the ones in the pyramid, with a few innovations and inventions interspersed throughout.

QUOTE
Wrong again.


rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
The egyptians used the hardest granites and they didnt cut them with copper chisels because it is a physical impossibility to cut granite with a copper chisel.Many archaeologists have tried it.


Actually, I made a mistake here. The inner core of the pyramids was not granite, but a rough, low grade limestone. The outer casing and the interior corridors were made of a stronger, finer, white limestone. Hard granite was used sparingly, mostly in the corrider upper blocks and the external load-bearing points, due to its difficulty to work. The inner limestone is a 3 on the Moh scale of hardness, which allowed it to be worked relatively (not easily, but relatively) easily with copper tools. The harder limestone on the outside was worked in a similar way, although it was much more tedious, being a 4 on the Moh scale, compared to the 5 of copper (hardened copper is a bit tougher, but lets keep the math simple). As I said, copper tools were not used to cut granite, just to chisel it.

QUOTE
You have actually made a point here.


Thank you so much. Here I was afraid that all I was doing was wasting your time trying to teach you something.

QUOTE
In fact the egyptians didnt seem to have any problem at all with cutting and shifting any type or weight of stone. Do you know that no scientist has figured out how the egyptians could cut such vast blocks of granite,move them and place them into position? No scientists has yet figured out how the Sarcophagus in the King's chamber of the great pyramid was cut from a solid block of granite? Certainly not by men wielding lumps of dolorite. Established archeology still cant figure out how the egyptians could cut then move by river for some 200 miles , 300 ton granite obelisks.


Oh, let's not be silly. There is a world of difference between not knowing something and not being able to figure out how it was done. I have no idea how they got the 312 ton obelisk in France to the place where it stands, but I bet you I could figure it out, and I wouldn't have to involve strange powers or alien visitors. When scientists say they don't know how these things got moved, it doesn't mean they don't have a damn good idea about it. Scientists (or rather, Egyptologist) have figured out various different ways in which these things could have been cut and moved, down the river, up to the pyramid, and beyond.

The sarcophagus in the King's Chamber was quite likely cut in the exact same way as the trenches in the quarries were cut: Essentially, you chisel a long groove, about four inches wide, into the granite, as deep as you need (or can). You carve several of these in the space where you need to remove the material. Now that you have these long grooves, you insert a lever and 'snap' the upright walls between the groves, thus removing the material. Now you have a rough-hewn space that you finish in the manner that I already describe before.

QUOTE
The 'great majority' of the pyramid is made from limestone not granite.


Yes, I know, I corrected myself...say, didn't you say above that "The egyptians used the hardest granites..."?

QUOTE
Archeologists actually found ablock of granite in an ancient quarry in egypt.It had been split from a larger piece and they did indeed find the remains of the holes that had been drilled in it. They also discovered that the holes had been drilled with a spiral fluted drill...of the type that one would find in a modern engineering workshop.


Yes, the Egyptians were the leaders in rock technology. I wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that they experimented with spiral fluted drills. Unfortunately, their technology wouldn't have allowed for the efficient production of these, compared with the rapid dulling they would have experience. There is another stone that shows evidence that a chisel with a cross edge was used, with one Egyptian holding it, another striking it with a hammer, then the first one twisting the handle before the next blow; in effect, the first Impact Drill!

QUOTE
I once took the trouble to watch a stonemason in britain cut a block of granite and he used a similar method. His drill was 4 feet in length and diamond tipped. He told me that the drill bit was good for 80 cuts before it blunted.
I somehow just cant imagine the egyptians using a 4 feet long copper drill.


This is what I meant by seeing the past with the eyes of the present. It is difficult for us to imagine that the ancient people would take the time and effort to do something in such an inefficient manner. The thing is, though, that to them, this was the best they had, and it was leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else. They did in 20 years what would have taken another civilization a hundred.

QUOTE
A team of archeologists once attempted to cut and shape a block of exactly the same granite that the egyptians used. They first tried copper chisels.These blunted with three blows. They then tried to use dolorite blocks.After four hours of hammering away they discovered they had made no impression at all on the granite block. Yet the egyptians are believed to have quarried 300 ton granite obelisks from quarries using the dolorite block method.


Fortunately, those Egyptologists then realized that, in order to figure out how to work stone and how to move large objects, the people to talk to were stonemasons and engineers, not archeologists and historians.

If you or I were to pick up the hardened steel chisel of a modern-day stonemason, I guarantee you that we would not be able to split a block of granite with anything near the speed or efficiency of the stonemason. It is far more than simply a matter of striking a rock with a chisel. The ancient Egyptians needed (and had) an army of copper workers to keep them stocked with the quickly blunted copper chisels, but the reason they were able to work so efficiently was because they knew were to strike, how hard, and how often. This is not to say their work was quickly done. They probably didn't get more than a dozen good hits per chisel, but fortunately, while copper dulls easily, it is just as easy to sharpen.

Now, dolorite hammers were used in two ways. The first was for rough material removal. For instance, the massive, monolithic obelisks were made using dolorite hammers to break away the rock around it in chunks. For this, they needed the previously mentioned trench made by the chisels and lever technique previously mentioned. The whole point was to use leverage, as in to strike the granite so that the force broke of a chunk in the angle where it was least supported, namely toward the edge. It wasn't a brute force approach, just banging away on the rock like a caveman until it broke.

The second way of using the hammers I already talked about; using them to flatten a rough surface by pulverizing the little bumps. Once the surface was relatively flat, an abrasive quartz mixture was used for the finally polishing. There are a few scientists who even believe the Egyptians had access to emery technology, but that hasn't been supported by evidence as of yet.
fantazum
[quote name='aquatus1' date='Jan 1 2006, 01:41 AM' post='999945']
For some reason, I have been having difficulties replying to specific posts. I don't know why, but hopefully this will post.
Wrong? mellow.gif Antagonistic, much?

it would take up much less of your time if you simply copied and pasted from the Cairo museum's guide to ancient egypt. You have even challenged the findings of Sir Flinders Petrie.
read this from: http://www.gizapower.com/Advanced/Advanced%20Machining.html

In August, 1984, Analog magazine published my article "Advanced Machining in Ancient Egypt?" It was a study of "Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh," written by Sir. William Flinders Petrie. Since the article’s publication, I have visited Egypt twice, and with each visit I leave with more respect for the ancient pyramid builders. While in Egypt in 1986, I visited the Cairo museum and gave a copy of my article, along with a business card, to the director of the museum. He thanked me kindly, threw it in a drawer to join other sundry material, and turned away. Another Egyptologist led me to the "tool room" to educate me in the methods of the ancient masons by showing me a few cases that housed primitive copper tools. I asked my host about the cutting of granite, for this was the focus of my article. He explained that the ancient Egyptians cut a slot in the granite, inserted wooden wedges, and then soaked them with water. The wood swelled creating pressure that split the rock. Splitting rock is vastly different than machining it and he did not explain how copper implements were able to cut granite, but he was so enthusiastic with his dissertation that I did not interrupt. To prove his argument, he walked me over to a nearby travel agent encouraging me to buy airplane tickets to Aswan, where, he said, the evidence is clear. I must, he insisted, see the quarry marks there, as well as the unfinished obelisk.

Dutifully, I bought the tickets and arrived at Aswan the next day. After learning some of the Egyptian customs, I got the impression that this was not the first time that my Egyptologist friend had made that trip to the travel agent. The quarry marks I saw there did not satisfy me that the methods described were the only means by which the pyramid builders quarried their rock. There is a large round hole drilled into the bedrock hillside, that measures approximately 12 inches in diameter and 3 feet deep that is located in the channel, which runs the length of the estimated 3,000 ton obelisk,. The hole was drilled at an angle with the top intruding into the channel space. The ancients may have used drills to remove material from the perimeter of the obelisk, knocked out the webs between the holes, and then removed the cusps.



Quarry Marks at Aswan Drill Hole at Aswan

The Aswan quarries were educational, though after returning to Cairo the following day and while strolling around the Giza Plateau later in the week, I started to question the quarry marks at Aswan even more. South of the second pyramid I found an abundance of quarry marks of similar nature. The granite casing stones that had sheathed the second pyramid were stripped off and lying around the base in various stages of destruction. Some of the stones were still in place, though sections had been split away from them, and there I found the same quarry marks that I had seen earlier in the week at Aswan. This was puzzling to me. Disregarding the impossibility of Egyptologists’ theories on the ancient pyramid builders’ quarrying methods, are they really valid even from a non-technical, logical viewpoint? If these quarry marks distinctively identify the people who created the pyramids, why would they engage in such a tremendous amount of extremely difficult work only to destroy their work after having completed it? It seems to me that the quarry marks found at Aswan and on the Giza Plateau were from a later period of time, and they were created by people who were interested only in obtaining granite without caring about the source from where it came.



Quarry Marks at Giza

Archaeology is largely the study of history’s toolmakers, and archaeologists understand a society’s level of advancement with tools and artifacts. The hammer was probably the first tool ever invented, and hammers have forged some elegant and beautiful artifacts. Ever since man first learned that he could effect profound changes in his environment by applying force with a reasonable degree of accuracy, the development of tools has been a continuous and fascinating aspect of human endeavor. The Great Pyramid leads a long list of artifacts that have been misunderstood and misinterpreted by archaeologists, who have promoted theories and methods that are based on a collection of tools that they struggle with to replicate the most simple aspects of the work.

"Quarrymen of the Pyramid age would have accused Greek historian Strabo of understatement as they hacked at the stubborn granite of Aswan. Their axes and chisels were made of copper hardened by hammering."

Dr. IES Edwards~Egyptologist

For the most part, primitive tools that are discovered are considered contemporaneous with the artifacts of the same period. Yet during this period in Egyptian history, artifacts were produced in prolific number with no tools surviving to explain their creation. The ancient Egyptians created artifacts that cannot be explained in simple terms. These tools do not fully represent the "state of the art" that is evident in the artifacts. There are some intriguing objects that survived after this civilization, and in spite of its most visible and impressive monuments, we have only a sketchy understanding of the full scope of its technology. The tools displayed by Egyptologists as instruments for the creation of many of these incredible artifacts are physically incapable of reproducing them. After standing in awe before these engineering marvels, and then being shown a paltry collection of copper implements in the tool case at the Cairo Museum, one comes away bemused and frustrated.

British Egyptologist, Sir. William Flinders Petrie, recognized that these tools were insufficient. He explored this anomaly thoroughly in "Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh," and expressed amazement about the methods the ancient Egyptians used to cut hard igneous rocks. He credited them with methods that "......we are only now coming to understand." So why do modern mainstream Egyptologists insist that this work was accomplished with a few primitive copper instruments?

I'm not an Egyptologist, I'm a technologist. I do not have much interest in who died when, whom they may have taken with them and where they went to. No lack of respect is intended for the mountain of work and the millions of hours of study conducted on this subject by intelligent scholars (professional and amateur), but my interest, thus my focus, is elsewhere. When I look at an artifact to investigate how it was manufactured, I am not concerned about its history or chronology. Having spent most of my career working with the machinery that actually creates modern artifacts, such as jet-engine components, I am able to analyze and determine how an artifact was created. I have also had training and experience in some non-conventional manufacturing methods, such as laser processing and electrical discharge machining. Having said that, I should state that contrary to some popular speculations, I have not seen evidence of laser for cutting on the Egyptian rocks. Still, there is evidence for other non-conventional machining methods, as well as more sophisticated, conventional type sawing, lathe and milling practices. Undoubtedly, some of the artifacts that Petrie was studying were produced using lathes. There is also evidence of clearly defined lathe tool marks on some "sarcophagi" lids. The Cairo Museum contains enough evidence that will prove that the ancient Egyptians used highly sophisticated manufacturing methods once its properly analyzed. For generations the focus has centered on the nature of the cutting tools used by the ancient Egyptians. While in Egypt in February 1995, I discovered evidence that raises the question, "What guided the cutting tool?"

A variety of people have speculated that to erect a building as perfect as the Great Pyramid, the builders must have possessed supernatural powers. Some even speculate that the builders used lasers to cut the masonry and then levitated the stones into place in the pyramid. While I cannot speak authoritatively regarding the builders’ powers of levitation, whether the implementation of those powers was through the use of the mind or through the use of technology, I can say with reasonable confidence that no lasers were used in cutting the materials which went into building the Great Pyramid. Although the laser is a wonderful tool with many uses, its function as a cutting tool is limited to economically viable applications, such as cutting small holes in thin pieces of metal and refractory material. As a general purpose cutting tool, it cannot compete with the machining methods that were available before its inception.



The methods used to cut the masonry for the Great Pyramid can be deduced from the marks they left behind on the stone. The bulk of the Great Pyramid was constructed with limestone blocks weighing an average of 2 1/2 tons each. While there are some interesting points to be made concerning the limestone that encased the pyramid, and they will be addressed later, these stones do not offer the same information about the methods that were used to produce them as the thousands of tons of granite. At the expense of considerable time and effort by the original creators, the granite artifacts found in the Great Pyramid and at other sites in Egypt offer the clues we are looking for.

Before we investigate the granite that was included in the Giza pyramids, there are several artifacts that indicate machinery power being used by the pyramid builders. These artifacts, scrutinized by William Flinders Petrie, are all fragments of extremely hard igneous rock. These pieces of granite and diorite exhibit marks that are the same as those resulting from cutting hard igneous rock with modern machinery. It is surprising that Petrie’s studies of these fragments have not attracted greater attention, for there is unmistakable evidence of machine tooling methods. It will probably surprise many people to know that evidence proving that the ancient Egyptians used tools such as straight saws, circular saws, and even lathes has been recognized for over a century. The lathe is the father of all machine tools in existence, and Petrie submits evidence showing that not only were lathes used by the ancient Egyptians, but they performed tasks which would, by today’s standards, be considered impossible without highly developed specialized techniques, such as cutting concave and convex sperical radii without splintering the material.



Petrie's Samples of Machining

While digging through the ruins of ancient civilizations, would archeologists instantly recognize the work of machine tools by the kind of marks made on the material or the configuration of the piece at which they were looking? Fortunately, one archeologist had the perception and knowledge to recognize such marks, and, although at the time Petrie’s findings were published the machining industry was in its infancy, the growth in the industry since then warrants a new look at his findings. Read more about Petrie's findings in "The Giza Power Plant: Technologies of Ancient Egypt" and at The Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh Online

One can gather by reading Petrie’s work that he involved himself in some extensive research regarding the tools that were employed in cutting hard stone. Even so, there is a persisting belief among some Egyptologists that the granite used in the Great Pyramid was cut using copper chisels.

Having worked with copper on numerous occasions, and having hardened it in the manner suggested above, this statement struck me as being entirely ridiculous. You can certainly work-harden copper by striking it repeatedly or even by bending it. However, after a specific hardness has been reached, the copper will begin to split and break apart. This is why, when working with copper to any great extent, it has to be periodically annealed, or softened, if you want to keep it in one piece. Even after hardening in such a way, the copper will not be able to cut granite. The hardest copper alloy in existence today is beryllium copper. There is no evidence to suggest that the ancient Egyptians possessed this alloy, but even if they did, this alloy is not hard enough to cut granite. Copper has predominantly been described as the only metal available at the time the Great Pyramid was built. Consequently, it would follow that all work must have sprung from the able use of this basic metallic element. We may be entirely wrong, however, even in the basic assumption that copper was the only metal available to the ancient Egyptians. For another little known fact about the pyramid builders is that they were iron makers as well. Hidden chambers and Metal plate CARBON-14 DATING THE GIZA PYRAMIDS? The Small Relics Found Inside The Pyramids - DE49

In proposing more primitive methods of manufacture, it has been demonstrated that copper charged with quartz sand can also be used to wear away the granite. Also, small balls made of dolorite, a stone that is harder than granite, have been found in the granite quarries which have led Egyptologists to suggest that granite artifacts were created by bashing the material.

Unforbidden Geology explores the more simple approach to working granite.

While there may be some who are satisfied with believing that these simplistic methods were adequate in creating the artifacts I have seen and measured, I am not. This is because they do not explain the full scope of the work.

Without going back in time and interviewing the craftsmen who worked on the pyramids, we will probably never know for sure what materials their tools were made of. Any debate of the subject would be futile, for until the proof is at hand, no satisfactory conclusion can be reached. However, the manner in which the masons used their tools can be discussed, and, perhaps if we compare current methods of cutting granite with the finished product (i.e. the granite coffers), there may be some basis on which to draw a parallel.

Today's granite cutting methods includes the use of wire-saws and an abrasive, usually silicon-carbide which slices through granite with ease. The wire is a continuous loop that is held by two wheels, one of the wheels being the driver. Between the wheels, which can vary in distance depending on the size of the machine, the granite is cut by being pushed against the wire or by being held firmly and allowing the wire to feed through it. The wire does not cut the granite, but is designed to effectively hold the silicon carbide grit that does the actual cutting.

By looking at the shapes of the cuts that were made in the basalt items 3b, and 5b, one could certainly speculate that a wire saw had been used and left its imprint in the rock. The full radius at the bottom of the cut is exactly the shape that would be left by such a saw.

Mr. John Barta, of the John Barta Company informed me, that the wire saws used in quarry mills today cut through granite with great rapidity. Mr. Barta told me that the wire saws with silicon-carbide cut through the granite like it is butter. Out of interest, I asked Mr. Barta what he thought of the copper chisel theory. Mr. Barta, possessing an excellent sense of humor, came forth with some jocular remarks regarding the practicality of such an idea.

If the ancient Egyptians had indeed used wire saws for cutting hard rock, were these saws powered by hand or machine? With my experience in machine shops and the countless number of times I have had to use a saw (both handsaws and power saws), there appears to be strong evidence that, in at least some instances, the latter method was used.

Once again, Petrie provides a clue:

"On the N. end (of the coffer) is a place, near the west side, where the saw was run too deep into the granite, and was backed out again by the masons; but this fresh start they made still too deep, and two inches lower they backed out a second time, having cut out more than .10 inch deeper than they had intended..."

The above was Petrie’s notes on the coffer inside the King's Chamber in the Great Pyramid. The following concerns the coffer inside the Second Pyramid:

"The coffer is well polished, not only inside but all over the outside; even though it was nearly all bedded into the floor, with the blocks plastered against it. The bottom is left rough, and shows that it was sawn and afterwards dressed down to the intended height; but in sawing it the saw was run too deep and then backed out; it was, therefore, not dressed down all over the bottom, the worst part of the sawing being cut .20 inch deeper than the dressed part. This is the only error of workmanship in the whole of it; it is polished all over the sides in and out, and is not left with the saw lines visible on it like the Great Pyramid coffer."

Petrie estimated that a pressure of one to two tons on jeweled tipped bronze saws would have been necessary to cut through the extremely hard granite. If we agree with these estimates as well as with the methods proposed by Egyptologists regarding the construction of the pyramids, then a severe inequity can be discerned between the two.

So far, Egyptologists have not given credence to any speculation that suggests that the builders of the pyramid might have used machines instead of manpower in this massive construction project. In fact, they do not give the pyramid builders the intelligence to have developed and used the simple wheel. It is quite remarkable that a culture, which possessed sufficient technical ability to make a lathe and progressed from there to develop a technique that enabled them to machine radii in hard diorite, would not have thought of the wheel before this.

Petrie logically assumes that the granite coffers found in the Giza Pyramids were marked prior to being cut. The workmen were given a guideline with which to work. The accuracy exhibited in the dimensions of the coffers confirms this, plus the fact that guidelines of some sort would have been necessary to alert the masons of their error.

While no one can say with certainty how the granite coffers were cut, the saw marks in the granite have certain characteristics, which suggests that they were not the result of hand sawing. If there was not evidence to the contrary, I might agree that the manufacturing of the granite coffers in the Great Pyramid and the Second Pyramid could quite possibly have been achieved using pure manpower, and a tremendous amount of time.

It is extremely unlikely that a team of masons operating a 9-foot handsaw would be cutting through hard granite fast enough that they would pass their guideline before noticing the error. To then back the saw out and repeat the same error, as they did on the coffer in the King's Chamber, does nothing to confirm the speculation that this object was the result of hand work.

When I read Petrie’s passage concerning these deviations, a flood of memories came to me of my own history with saws, both power and manual driven. With these experiences, plus those observed in others, it seems inconceivable to me that manpower was the motivating force behind the saw which cut the granite coffers. While cutting steel with handsaws, an object that has a long workface, and certainly one with such dimensions as the coffers, would not be cut with great rapidity, and the direction the saw may turn can be seen well in advance of a serious mistake being made; the smaller the workpiece, naturally, the faster the blade would cut through it.

On the other hand, if the saw is mechanized and is cutting rapidly through the workpiece, the saw could "wander" from its intended course and cut through the guideline at a certain point at such a speed that the error is made before the condition can be corrected. This is not uncommon.

This does not mean that a manually operated saw cannot "wander," but that the speed of the operation would determine the efficiency in discovering any deviation that the saw may have from its intended course.

Another interesting point to consider is that the saw was run too deeply, backed out, and then proceeded to cut again. Anyone who has been faced with the problem of drawing a saw-blade out of a cut and then making a restart on only one side of the cut, which is essentially what was done with the granite, knows that excessive pressure on the saw-blade would force it back into the original cut. To make a restart of this type it is necessary that very little pressure is put on the blade. With these considerations, it is doubtful that Petrie’s deductions of two to three tons pressure being necessary to cut the granite can be verified.

Making a restart in the middle of a cut, especially one of such dimensions as the granite coffer, would be more easily accomplished with machine sawing than it would be with hand sawing. With hand sawing there is little control over the blade in a situation like this, and it would be difficult to accurately gauge the amount of pressure needed. Also, the blade of the handsaw would be moving quite slowly; a fact that would question further the suggestion of a handsaw being used. At such a slow speed and with very little pressure, accomplishment of such a feat would be almost, if not completely, impossible.

With the power driven saw, on the other hand, the blade moves rapidly, and control of the blade is possible. The blade can be held in a fixed position, with uniform pressure over the entire length of the blade, and in the direction necessary to restart. This front and side pressure can be accurately maintained until sufficient material has been removed from the workpiece to allow a continuation of normal cutting speed.

The fact that a normal cutting rate was attained shortly after rectifying the mistake can be deduced by noting that in the Great Pyramid’s coffer, the mistake was repeated two inches further along. This is another example of the blade cutting through the granite at the wrong place faster than the men were able to detect and stop it.

Another method of correcting a mistake while using a handsaw, if the error was only in a small area of the cut, would be to tilt the blade and continue cutting in the unspoiled area, so that when the blade reached the area which needed correcting, the blade would be supported by the fresh tilted cut and would have sufficient strength to combat any tendencies to follow the original straight cut.

If the granite coffers had been cut with handsaws, it is conceivable that this method could be used in correcting the errors on the granite coffers. However, it has probably become apparent by now that William Flinders Petrie had the eye of a hawk and documented just about anything which came in sight. At the same time he was studying the cutting mistakes in the granite, he was also noticing other features:

"It is not finely wrought, and cannot in this respect rival the coffer in the Second Pyramid. On the outer sides the lines of sawing may be plainly seen: horizontal on the N., a small patch horizontal on the E., vertical on the S., and nearly horizontal on the W.; showing that the masons did not hesitate at cutting a slice of granite 90 inches long, and that the jeweled bronze saw must have been probably about 9 feet long."

If the operators of the saw, in an attempt to correct a mistake, had tilted their blade in the manner described above, the saw lines would show a difference with the pre-error saw lines, because they would be at an angle. The mistakes in the granite were found on the north side of the coffer, and Petrie observed that the saw lines on this side were horizontal. Following Petrie’s footsteps in 1986, I was able to verify his observations of the coffer in the Great Pyramid. The saw lines on the side where the mistakes were made are all horizontal. Any argument proposing that the mistake was overcome by tilting the blade, which is probably the only method that would be successful using a hand-saw, is invalidated. This evidence points to the distinct probability that the pyramid builders possessed motorized machinery when they cut the granite found inside the Great Pyramid and the Second Pyramid.

Today these saw marks would reflect either the differences in the aggregate dimensions of a wire bandsaw with the abrasive, or the side-to-side movement of the wire, or the wheels that drive the wire. The result of either of these conditions is a series of slight grooves. The feed-rate and either the distance between the variation in length of the saw or the diameter of the wheels determine the distance between the grooves. The distance between the grooves on the coffer inside the King's Chamber is approximately .050 inch.

Along with the evidence on the outside further evidence of the use of high speed machine tools can be found on the inside of the granite coffer in the King's Chamber. The methods that were evidently used by the pyramid builders to hollow out the inside of the granite coffers are similar to the methods which would be used to machine out the inside of components today.

Tool marks on the inside of the granite coffer in the King's Chamber indicate that when the granite was hollowed out, preliminary roughing cuts were made by drilling holes into the granite around the area which was to be removed. According to Petrie, these drill holes were made with tube-drills, which left a central core that had to be knocked away after the hole had been cut. After all the holes had been drilled, and all the cores removed, Petrie surmises that the coffer was then handworked to its desired dimension. The machinists on this particular piece of granite once again let their tools get the better of them, and the resulting errors are still to be found on the inside of the coffer in the King's Chamber:

"On the E. inside is a portion of a tube-drill hole remaining, where they had tilted the drill over into the side by not working it vertically. They tried hard to polish away all that part, and took of about 1/10 inch thickness all around it; but still they had to leave the side of the hole 1/10 deep, 3 long, and 1.3 wide; the bottom of it is 8 or 9 below the original top of the coffer. They made a similar error on the N. inside, but of a much less extent. There are traces of horizontal grinding lines on the W. inside."

The errors noted by Petrie are not uncommon in modern machine shops, and I must confess to having made them myself on occasion. Several factors could be involved in creating this condition, although I cannot visualize any one of them being a hand operation. Once again, while working their drill into the granite, the machinists had made a mistake before they had time to correct it.

Let us speculate for a moment that the drill was being worked by hand. How far into the granite would they be able to cut before the drill had to be removed to permit cleaning the waste out of the hole? Would they be able to drill 8 or 9 inches into the granite without having to remove their drill? It is inconceivable to me that such a depth could be achieved with a hand-operated drill without the frequent withdrawal of the drill to clean out the hole, or provisions being made for the removal of the waste while the drill was still cutting. It is possible, therefore, that frequent withdrawals of the drill would expose their error, and that they would have noticed the direction their drill was taking before it had cut a .200 inch gouge into the side of the coffer, and before it had reached a depth of 8 or 9 inches. Can’t we see the same situation with the drill as with the saw? Here we have two high speed operations where errors are made before the operators have time to correct them.

Although the ancient Egyptians are not given credit for having a simple wheel, the evidence proves that they not only had the wheel, they had a more sophisticated use for it. The evidence of lathe work is markedly distinct on some of the artifacts housed in the Cairo Museum, as well as those that were studied by Petrie. Two pieces of diorite in Petrie’s collection he identified as being the result of true turning on a lathe.

It is true that intricate objects can be created without the aid of machinery, simply by rubbing the material with an abrasive such as sand, using a piece of bone or wood to apply pressure. The relics Petrie was looking at, however, in his words, "could not be produced by any grinding or rubbing process which pressed on the surface."

The object Petrie was studying would hardly be considered remarkable to the inexperienced eye. It was a simple rock bowl. Studying the bowl closely, however, Petrie found that the spherical concave radius, forming the dish, had an unusual feel to it. Closer examination revealed a sharp cusp where two radii intersected. This indicates that the radii were cut on two separate axes of rotation.

I have witnessed the same condition when a component has been removed from a lathe and then worked on again without being recentered properly. On examining other pieces from Giza, Petrie found another bowl shard that had the marks of true lathe turning. This time, though, instead of shifting the workpiece’s axis of rotation, a second radius was cut by shifting the pivot point of the tool. With this radius, they machined just short of the perimeter of the dish, leaving a small lip. Again, a sharp cusp defined the intersection of the two radii. While browsing through the Cairo Museum, I found evidence of lathe turning on a large scale. A sarcophagus lid had distinct lathe turning marks. The radius of the lid terminated with a blend radius at shoulders on both ends. The tool marks near these corner radii are the same as those I have observed when turning an object with an intermittent cut. The tool is deflected under pressure from the cut. It then relaxes when the section of cut is finished. When the workpiece comes round again to the tool, the initial pressure causes the tool to dig in. As the cut progresses, the amount of "dig in" is diminished. On the sarcophagus lid in the Cairo Museum, tool marks indicating these conditions are exactly where one would expect to find them.

Egyptian artifacts representing tubular drilling are clearly the most astounding and conclusive evidence yet presented to indicate the extent to which knowledge and technology was practiced in pre-history. The ancient pyramid builders used a technique for drilling holes that is commonly known as "trepanning." This technique leaves a central core and is an efficient means of hole making. For holes that didn’t go all the way through the material, they reached a desired depth and then broke the core out of the hole. It was not only evident in the holes that Petrie was studying, but on the cores cast aside by the masons who had done the trepanning. Regarding tool marks that left a spiral groove on a core taken out of a hole drilled into a piece of granite, he wrote, "the spiral of the cut sinks .100 inch in the circumference of 6 inches, or 1 in 60, a rate of ploughing out of the quartz and feldspar which is astonishing." After reading this, I had to agree with Petrie. This was an incredible feedrate (distance traveled per revolution of the drill) for drilling into any material, let alone granite. I was completely confounded as to how a drill could achieve this feedrate. Petrie was so astounded by these artifacts that he attempted to explain them at three different points in one chapter. To an engineer in the 1880’s, what Petrie was looking at was an anomaly. The characteristics of the holes, the cores that came out of them, and the tool marks indicated an impossibility. Three distinct characteristics of the hole and core, as illustrated, make the artifacts extremely remarkable. They are:

A taper on both the hole and the core.
A symmetrical helical groove following these tapers showing that the drill advanced into the granite at a feed rate of .100 inch per revolution of the drill.
The confounding fact that the spiral groove cut deeper through the quartz than through the softer feldspar.
In conventional machining the reverse would be the case. In 1983, Mr. Donald Rahn of Rahn Granite Surface Plate Co., Dayton, Ohio, told me that in drilling granite, diamond drills, rotating at 900 revolutions per minute, penetrate at the rate of 1 inch in 5 minutes. In 1996, Eric Leither of Trustone Corp, told me that these parameters haven't changed since then. The feedrate of modern drills, therefore, calculates to be .0002 inch per revolution, indicating that the ancient Egyptians were able to cut their granite with a feed rate that was 500 times greater or deeper per revolution of the drill than modern drills. The other characteristics also create a problem for modern drills. They cut a tapered hole with a spiral groove that was cut deeper through the harder constituent of the granite. If conventional machining methods cannot answer just one of these questions, how do we answer all three?

In the Fall 2000 issue of the magazine, "Egypt Revealed," Dr. Mark Lehner, probably the most vocal and visible Egyptologist to apply his knowledge of manufacturing in analyzing the technology of the ancient Egyptians, postulated the existence of a copper shop in the newly discovered "worker's village." He stated that it was used "...to fashion thousands of copper chisels each probably no wider than your thumbnail for dressing the acres of limestone casing for the pyramids." In his documentary Obelisk I, Lehner passionately states that he is convinced that hieroglyphs and reliefs, the attributes of which Petrie marveled at because of their fine cross sections, measuring a mere .100 inch, indicating that the tool that created them had to have ploughed through the granite in a single pass, were actually created by bashing the granite with dolerite pounders.

One can gather by reading Petrie’s work that he involved himself in some extensive research regarding the tools that were employed in cutting hard stone. Even so, there is a persisting belief among some Egyptologists that the granite used in the Great Pyramid was cut using copper chisels. I.E.S. Edwards, British Egyptologist and the world's foremost expert on pyramids, makes the following statement.

“Quarrymen of the Pyramid age would have accused Greek historian Strabo of understatement as they hacked at the stubborn granite of Aswan. Their axes and chisels were made of copper hardened by hammering.” (Edwards, I.E.S. Ancient Egypt, Page 89. (1978 - National Geographic Society, Washington, DC.)

Hopefully, besides mainstream Egyptologists, such as Mark Lehner and IES Edwards, (RIP) other Egyptologists do not suggest that the copper chisels, that can now be found in the Cairo Museum, were representative of the tools used to build the pyramids. If they were I would strongly suggest that they make an effort to learn about the materials and processes that they are proposing by actually creating one of these artifacts. To identify copper as the metal used for cutting granite is like saying that aluminum could be cut using a chisel fashioned out of butter. What follows is a more feasible and logical method, and it provides an answer to the question of techniques used by the ancient Egyptians in drilling into granite.

The fact that the feedrate spiral is symmetrical is quite remarkable considering the proposed method of cutting. The taper indicates an increase in the cutting surface area of the drill as it cut deeper, hence an increase in the resistance. A uniform feed under these conditions, using manpower, would be impossible. Petrie theorized that a ton or two of pressure was applied to a tubular drill consisting of bronze inset with jewels. However, this doesn’t take into consideration that under several thousand pounds pressure the jewels would undoubtedly work their way into the softer substance, leaving the granite relatively unscathed after the attack. Nor does this method explain the groove being deeper through the quartz.

It should be noted that Petrie did not identify the means by which he inspected the core, whether he used metrology instruments, a microscope or the naked eye. It should also be noted that all Egyptologists do not universally accept his conclusions. In "Ancient Egyptian Materials and Industries," Lucas takes issue with Petrie's conclusion that the grooves were the result of fixed jewel points. He states:

"In my opinion, to suppose the knowledge of cutting these gem stones to form teeth and of setting them in the metal in such a manner that they would bear the strain of hard use, and to do this at the early period assigned to them, would present greater difficulties than those explained by the assumption of their employment. But were there indeed teeth such as postulated by Petrie? The evidence to prove their presence is as follows.

(a) A cylindrical core of granite grooved round and round by a graving point, the grooves being continuous and forming a spiral, with in one part a single groove that may be traced five rotation round the core.

(cool.gif Part of a drill hole in diorite with seventeen equidistant grooves due to the successive rotation of the same cutting point.

© Another piece of diorite with a series of grooves ploughed out to a depth of over one-hundredth of an inch at a single cut.

(d) Other pieces of diorite showing the regular equidistant grooves of a saw.

(e) Two pieces of diorite bowls with hieroglyphs incised with a very free-cutting point and neither scraped nor ground out.

But if an abrasive powder had been used with soft copper saws and drills, it is highly probable that pieces of the abrasive would have been forced into the metal, where they might have remained for some time, and any such accidental and temporary teeth would have produced the same effect as intentional and permanent ones…"

Lucas goes on to speculate that withdrawing the tube-drill in order to remove waste and insert fresh grit into the hole created the grooves. There are problems with this theory. It is doubtful that a simple tool that is being turned by hand will remain turning while the artisans draw it out of the hole. Likewise, placing the tool back into a clean hole with fresh grit would not require that the tool rotate until it was at the workface. There is also the question of the taper on both the hole and the core. Both would effectively provide clearance between the tool and the granite, thereby making sufficient contact to create the grooves impossible under these conditions.

The method I propose explains how the holes and cores found at Giza could have been cut. It is capable of creating all the details that Petrie and myself puzzled over. Unfortunately for Petrie, the method was unknown at the time he made his studies, so it is not surprising that he could not find any satisfactory answers.

The application of ultrasonic machining is the only method that completely satisfies logic, from a technical viewpoint, and explains all noted phenomena. Ultrasonic machining is the oscillatory motion of a tool that chips away material, like a jackhammer chipping away at a piece of concrete pavement, except much faster and not as measurable in its reciprocation. The ultrasonic tool-bit, vibrating at 19,000 to 25,000 cycles per second (Hertz) has found unique application in the precision machining of odd-shaped holes in hard, brittle material such as hardened steels, carbides, ceramics and semiconductors. An abrasive slurry or paste is used to accelerate the cutting action.

The most significant detail of the drilled holes and cores studied by Petrie is that the groove is cut deeper through the quartz than the feldspar. Quartz crystals are employed in the production of ultrasonic sound and, conversely, are responsive to the influence of vibration in the ultrasonic ranges and can be induced to vibrate at high frequency. In machining granite, using ultrasonics, the harder material (quartz) would not necessarily offer more resistance, as it would during conventional machining practices. An ultrasonically vibrating tool-bit would find numerous sympathetic partners while cutting through granite, embedded right in the granite itself! Instead of resisting the cutting action, the quartz would be induced to respond and vibrate in sympathy with the high frequency waves and amplify the abrasive action a