Hyper I never thought of it put to a poison/serum analog.

I've deleted my posts because it's off topic and doesnt go with what is previsouly being discussed on this posts.

who are you to say Christianity must change..people just try to adjust Christianity to their human desires to have sex etc..they want to mold religion to their convinience and that would be to distort the original religion besides if you cant embrace something that has rules thats something but trying to change it into something else just to say you are not doing anything wrong thats sick.





good post..

Still Crazy, Gay coupling is NOT a sin. It is merely another form of sexual expression, amongst a wide variety of expressions existing today. True love can be expressed through gay sexuality, just as it can through heterosexuality, bisexuality, polygamy, polyfidelity, polyamory, or even group marriage. Love is always love, no matter what form it takes, sexual or otherwise!
Gay coupling is one form of True Love expression; therefore, how can it be a sin? Since God is Love, this means that, whenever a lesbian makes love with another lesbian, God (Love) is expressing through that gay couple! Gay sexual love cannot be a sin because it does not go against God who IS Love! How can love be a sin when that is God's True Nature?
Jesus said, "Judge not, that you be not judged." But so many Christians are passing judgement everytime they condemn gay sexuality and call it a 'sin'. They pass judgement on sex before marriage; they pass judgement on women by saying that they cannot be priests; they even pass judgement on sexuality itself by not allowing priests to marry, because they think that sex prevents them from reaching complete unity with God. Sex is judged as being an obstacle to deep communion with God.

Yes indeed, Sheri, wisely said! Discrimination by any other name smells just as foul. When will all these judgemental religious people come to realize how much suffering they create with all this talk of gay sex being sinful? Don't they understand that their judgemental behaviour goes against all that Jesus stood for? Jesus said, "Love one another", and "judge not, that you be not judged", but many narrow-minded Christians cannot see that gays ARE loving one another in their sexual couplings. And those very same Christians ARE judging others when they call gay sex a 'sin'. And all this judgement inevitably leads to violence and discrimination against gays and lesbians.

Mark Very well put and this needs to be said over and over until it is understood, Love is never "Wrong" when it is between two consenting people, I can't really add to your post because you put it so perfectly, Religion has got to grow up and except responsibility that their narrow view of "God " is keeping the world in the state of stagnation and division and I want add that religion is soley responsible for the discrimination and awful treatment towards half the population, the feminine expression,

PA I am very aware of grace, because it doesn't fit the biblical understanding of Grace doesn't mean there are no other possible definitions my understanding of grace is based on personal experience not a text book definition, no one understands grace better than a woman .grace is the inherent quality of any woman PA maybe it is you who does not understand Grace?.Just something to ponder.Namaste sheri

I will disagree with you on this. For two reasons. Where do you draw the line? Does it make Incest okay when the victim thinks, through convincing of the other party, that sex with a family member is okay. Does it make pedophilia okay because the victim is convinced that the other party is doing it out of love.

I do not have to condone the behavior, but I can not, and will not condemn the person. As that is not my place. I will not dissolve my friendships with people I know who are gay.

Sheri Berri, I will be the first to tell you the Bible is sexist, in a modern way. It places all the responsibility for providing for and teaching the family on the male. It places certain responsibilities of child rearing on the female. It also places sexual responsiblity equally on both.

Still Crazy
IMO Incest, and sexual deviant behavior does not stem from a healthy understanding and a respect for ones sexual nature , it comes from denying that the sexual nature is natural, IMO we draw the line by teaching that our sexual nature is a gift and beautiful and an expression of love in the Physical. When someone is taught that there sexual nature is "bad" wrong vile vulgar to be denied you can guareentee you are creating a sexual deviancy, unwanted pregnancys , rapists etc. Religion is soley responsible for defining and mandating the way ones sexual nature is to be embraced, If you beleive that the sex act is the most loving beautiful act between two people (consenting) you will act in accordance with it, if you are taught it is wrong and "bad' and something that can get out of control and is evil in intent. you will also embrace behaviors that reflect that. It is often misunderstood by religon that the origins of the problems we have in the crimes of a sexual nature are lack of self control and denial of the sexual nature isn't strong enough but the problem is the beleifs that are taught!f change the beeliefs you change the behavior, you will never change behavior thru the behavior itself, Religon is stagnate in its understanding and denies its responsibility in creating the problems to begin with, It would empower religion to admit that they are wrong in there approach to sexuality, people aspire to be what they are told they are, any parent will tell you that. Namaste Sherii

i have read the n.t., and conclude that yeshu was simply teaching judiasm. If christians would go back to observing the commandments, and remember that yeshu said they were not to be changed, they can eat kosher food and observe god's sabbath, so i think it would be wonderful if christians would give fundamentalist nonsense and follow Yeshu's teachings. it reminds me of the old rhyme.
"roses are red,
violets are bluish,
if it weren't for Yeshu,
we'd all be jewish."

of course, it was "St.Paul" who really took Yeshu's teachings and first twisted them all around.

And how many do you know that are gay that you befriended knowing they were gay?



Extremely well said IMLO
Take a bow.

Turtle Ah shucks you are making me blush Namaste Sheri

i would think that very few people on this board understand what the NT writers ment when they used 'charis' the greek word translated as grace.

Since this is my last post to the forum I will answer the question.

23 that I know are gay. I knew 15 were gay before becoming friends with them.

You all enjoy.

Peace to you all

Obviously you do not know what Grace is either...........

PA, isn't that always the excuse!

So go ahead and do tell what version of grace you claim was not lifted from prior philosophies. please do tell. Put it "in stone" for once. No more wiggle room please.

Not sure off the top of my head, but at least six

I have a harem of gay men... X)

I doubt if any of you realize that the grace of Lord Mithra was first and more encompassing than that of later imitators.

I tend to disagree. I admit I don't know a huge amount about Mithra, but of what I've found, the concept of Grace is not in Mithraism.

On similar note, a group of atheists trying to disprove Christianity (sorry, can't remember specifics) tried to show that there was nothing different or new to Christianity. They proved that everything in the Bible could be found in other religions...... EXCEPT GRACE!!!!!!!

And I read an official quote (again, sorry I don't have specifics) from a convention of Mithra followers who said that it's obvious CHristianity is NOT based on Mithraism.

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

I do not know where you recieved your information, but we who follow the Lord have always maintained that Christianity was a imperfect copy of what the Lord Mithra taught. Only Mithra gives true grace, grace unencumbered by the need to believe in him. He came and died that all mankind would have salvation with no strings attached.

Does that mean I'm saved regardless what I do? WOOHOO! I can be a Christian and still be saved by the power of Lord Mithra. Yay! So if I keep believing in Jesus I've got my bases covered. If I'm right - Jesus is my ticket. If you're right, Mithra - I can't lose

Did I mention the fire cleansing that a non-beleiver will have to undergo at the end of time? It will smart a bit, but afterward you will be allowed in heaven, but you ticket is paid and you will not spend eternity in Hell (try that with the imitator)

mythra-were you baptized in an underground chamber with the blood of the bull? just asking.
pa-it's been done to death, but Yeshu is almost 100% carbon copy of Mithra, Krishna, and dozens of other savior figures.

check this out if you haven't already

I think he has seen the evidence but just does not want to accept.

Because we are sworn to secrecy when baptisted, all I can answer is - "We follow the old ways".

Issues like same sex marriages, and same sex relationships cannot just be changed in the church because a bunch of gay people want it. Thats directly closing the bibles entire teachings. If the church was to do that, what would be the next to go ?. You could continue to change everything to meet your everyday lifestyle that you want.

The bibles traditions are not very hard to follow, and it's not the bibles fault, or the churches fault that society has twisted the world to the point that it is today. Everyone has their freedom of speech, and their right to freedom and free choices. HOWEVER, a bunch of people "wanting" to change thousands of years of traditions to better meet THEIR lifestyles is not going to happen.

I strongly believe in Pope Benedicts decesions, and believe thats why God appointed him in the position he has today, through the Cardinals.

Yep, over a thousand years of celebate priests fellating little boys is a hard tradition to break.

That has nothing to do with the religion Gideon, thats the individual. The world is an un-perfect place, and we are all sinners.

Why is this the stock answer anytime Christians get caught doing something wrong? A tree is know by the fruit it bears, and it seems to be bearing some mighty rotten fruit!

One specific organization cannot stop thousands of people from doing something, doesn't matter how hard they try. Every job everyday try to stop people from coming in late, scamming businesses, calling in sick when they are not, and just being all around lazy.

The church does pay large amounts of money to the families of these victims of this case, and to be honest, thats the best they can do. A person that can go to College, and graduate from Bible School is obviously of intellect. How much more can the church do to screen certain people ?. A priest is a difficult job worldwide and it's on a very large decline, because people do not have the Willpower to do it anyone in todays society. Trust me, being a Priest puts a lotta pressure on the individual. Not only are you a front man for an entire religion, your someone that hopefully anyone can trust for advice, a shoulder to cry on, knowledge, and day to day help. This is a large responsibility, to be able to have anyone come up to you, tell you the strangest and darkest sins you may of ever heard, and then be able to bless them, and go to bed at night knowing what you know.

Priests have it hard, and I just hope that some people do that respect for them, instead of always putting them down.

You are wanting me to believe that an organization, organized along the lines of the Roman Army of the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE, that micromanages the lives of its adherents, that demands complete obedience of its clergy and laity, did not know what was going on nearly nationwide (maybe even world wide). We have evidence that the church was aware of this problem for decades …… and you want us to believe that they couldn’t do anything about the problem? Come on, get real, the priests that weren't daydreaming of little boy’s butts were trying to sweep the problem under the carpet instead of attempting to fix it!

Now they are paying, but if they had spent half the effort when this problem surfaces decades ago, many of the young children that are being paid, would have been spared the anguish and suffering that they went through.

I don’t know, but it seems to me that the Protestants haven’t had any problem with their preachers lusting after young boys on the scale that the Roman Church has had. Maybe y’all need to ask them how they did it.

The difficulty of a job is no excuse for the sexual molestation of the young. One of the most difficult jobs in the world is the military. I don’t think I have seen many cases of military members molesting young boys either on the installation or in the neighborhood of it. Does this mean that these secular men are more moral than the Church's leaders?

Oh puhleese, spare me the whining….There may have been a time decades ago that people might have looked up to priests, but that time is long gone, thanks mainly to the shenanigans of those “brave” men wearing the reversed collar. The sins they hear about are the reality faced by the Police, Firemen and Military everyday. We manage to sleep and don’t need a warm little boy to take the edge off.

As I said, a tree is known by the fruit it bears and what it has been bearing is turning the people from it. Your Pope is doing too little too late to reverse the trend.

Personally it seems you have had a personal problem with this mako, you seem to make it out that every priest does this. And Mako, I was a Roman Catholic Priest, and not once did I ever touch a little boy in any perverted way, and neither did any of my hundreds of clergy men. As far as the military being harder, I dont believe so. My oldest brother is a Sargeant in the Army, and other older brother is a Master Corporal, trust me, I know everything they do. They take and give orders, thats exactly the make up of it. I would not go to an army personel, and confess my sins, and ask for forgiveness, or for information on life changing commitments.

Just because you are not a significant part of the Roman Catholic Church, doesn't mean people do not trust and love the Church. There are more then 2 BILLION worshippers of the faith. Go and watch some live footage of when Pope John Pauls funeral was being done. Every Hotel in Rome was booked, every street corner was filled with people giving their prayers and thanks.

Are you implying that the molestation of young boys is some kind of coverup by the church, that they say " oh you can do it, we have done it for hundreds of years, just don't get caught! ". Thats just ridiculous. I personally have met a few priests that were convicted of these crimes. These are decent men, and 3 of them were let off of charges because of no significant evidence, they were just greedy families looking for money from the church. Things like this destroy a priests life, and they know the consequences. Their are bad priests, I stand by that, there are some that follow God and the Church, but only choose bits and pieces that they believe in, and that is somewhat ridiculous as well. But you need to know that that the Roman Catholic Church is not a corrupt establishment, you seem to forget the millions of dollars they have given to third world countries, and towards poverty and the homeless. Of course, none of this is ever in front page news, because journalists and the rest of the world just say " Who cares, this is what the church is suppose to do ", so it never gets covered.

Azlan,

As the world's largest money making institution, what percentage of money is being given by the RC church to all these "Causes" you list?

Im not sure of the exact percentage, but if it makes you feel better, the church is BROKE. They are selling cathedrals, paintings and other religious artifacts just to pay the government on their land taxes and bills and utililities of their churches worldwide.

When Pope benedict was elected, one of his main rules was to figure out how to get out of the 2 Billion dollar defeceit the church was in.

Then there is no hope for the church.
Christianity on the other hand if it will change then it still has a chance.

No, I just have a problem with someone trying to justify what your church did and the attempt to sweep the whole mess under the carpet.

Nope, you and they probably didn’t, you were too busy trying to cover the problem up instead of taking action to stop it and rid yourselves of it!

Knowing and KNOWING are two different things. Have you ever heard the whine of a bullet fired in anger? Have you ever killed another human? Have you ever looked in the eyes of your best friend as he breathed his last breath? Until you can answer yes to every one of those questions, then you have no idea of what they do! Incidentally, thanks to Vietnam, Grenada and Panama, I can answer yes to every one of those questions.

As I said above, they do a helluva lot more than that, especially now with the “War on Terrorism”. You know, we are equal, I ain’t gonna ask no priest to hear my confessions, especially since I am a third generation Deist!

That makes what the Church does right? I don’t think so. Incidentally of the Christians of the world, Catholicism is less than ½ of that population, and is only 16% or less (depending on which website you take your figures from since one of them really agree) of the world population. Of the non-Catholic Christians, I would say almost none love or trust your church and of the non-Christians of the world, I would say that very few love or trust your church. The numbers you quote doesn’t mean much, he was after all the leader of a state and his fellow Catholics would tend to want to be at his funeral. That has nothing to do with the validity of you church.

Oh Puhleese, you don’t think the world really buys that garbage do you? Too many of your fellow priests have admitted to it and too many have been moved by the church to forestall prosecution.

Tell that to the myriad of peoples that the Church has tortured, murdered, enslaved, and in general destroyed over the last 1900 years of so!

That’s right, according to their tenants that what they are supposed to do. However, there is all the money that never made it to where it was supposed to go. What was it Jesus said about wanting recognition for your "holiness" that this will be your reward, not heaven?

Then in your assumptions the church will die, but I'd rather them die then to change their teaching. If you can just change religious teachings as you go along, then what are you really following ?, whatever feels good at the time ?. Thats blasphemy to change what's been put in the bible.

We all know instances in the bible may of been changed, or left out, since it has been recorded over hundreds of years, through Greek, and Latin. You just need to believe that it's what god wanted in the end result.

"The only domain in which we can ascertain in detail the extent to which Christianity imitated Mithraism is that of art." Is that what you are referring to? If it is its found in Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies

the whole grace thing, from Handbook of Biblical Social Values:
"'grace' (charis) is a shorthand way of referring to the patron-client relationship, to enjoying patronage, while when referring to God, it is his willingness to be patron, to give patronage."
i again highly recommend that book.

so changes are what "god wanted". then future changes are what he wants as well by that stance. Which way is it?

Not that it matters, all human creations have a finite life cycle.

PA Grace permeates all things is all things , it has nothing to do with religion ! To have a true understanding of grace, it requires you to be in communion with the part of yourself that is divine or universal or part of the system. grace is the awareness of this! god isn't some thing that is outside, brought to you, but is you and many, many philosophys speak of this , God self ! self actualization etc. etc. Grace can also be thought of as a gift ,the gift of life, the reverence for all that is meaning that you get, there, is a unity and synergy that is the system and each has a viable part in it and uses their life as the tool which expresses its understanding and awareness of that which it is. The creator and created are one in the same, By the Grace of God Go I is a metaphor for this understanding. Namaste sheri

Is this not what has been happening for 1900 years? When a Priest looks at a little boys behind is that not a gay pedophile? Then to move the priest to a different church...Is that not helping broaden his horizons?
In my book that is aiding and abetting a felon. How about yours?

How many versions of the Bible in Greek? Latin? In English there are "OVER 100 VERSIONS" of the Bible. Your God wanted that? You call it blasphemy to change what's been put in the bible? To translate from what Hebrew to what ever language are you not changing the Bible?

How can you even compare a religious priest to a military personel. The war on Vietnam was not a good thing, you had I'd say half of America against that war. The war on Terrorism to this day is not going anywhere. Half or more of Americans hate the war and hate Bush for even starting it all.

And to think I was "sweeping" up sexual crimes for the church just shows how delusional you really are. As far the the church destroying their opposition during the Roman and dark ages, what does that matter. Europeans came here and killed thousands of native amercians to call this land their own. Of course, we all say that was just, ya know, exploration of the new world, or slavery of the African Americans, but the church, oh, they were so much worse to do it. The church was persecuted as well. Ever heard of the "Great Persecution " at the hands of Emporer Nero ?. When they fed thousands of Christians to lions in gladiator pits. When they made them drink hot lead, poked out there eyes and cut off their tounges, that went on for a few decades.

What does it matter? Just think of how much further along we could be in all fields of knowledge. How many people died during those times that might not have if it never happened?

I am Native American. I can not argue with you on this.

But this.....
How much do you know of the African slave trade? Did you know it was Africans doing the "rounding up" of slaves. Can you say that there was no mention (favorable mention) of owning slaves in the Bible?

No one can say where we would be without the Church, we may be better, or we may be worse. All we can really say, is that we would not be here, right now, without it. If your happy with your life, then you should give a bit of appreciation to church to shape the world to what it amounted too today. Although there are a lot of factors, it's a hard issue to debate, cause no one knows.

I know of the slavery, and to be honest, it was a bad example. Slaves were more universal back then, they are considered now with modern technology.

yes, azalin, it is a game of guessing to make alternate timelines for all the "what ifs"

however, just because i am "here, now" does not mean i owe anything to the timeline prior to me, for the alternative would simply be that i never exist. It is not as if the church spent 2000 years raping and torturing my forbearers for the explicit purpose of my being born.

Now, the past is the past. We are at a crossroads now where a critical mass of knowledge is being reached that will see a fundamental shift in people's views and in society overall (structurally). Soon (relative to the length of time man has existed) christianity will be a footnote in history. There is no stopping the evolution of the species.

Agreed that science has pushed very far in the last hundred years. However, until they can find a way to theorize the creation of the entire universe, and somehow dis-prove the theory of God, then Christianity will always be here. And like you said with your relative to the time of man, this may still take another 100 to a 1000 years.

not necessarily so. religions run their course, as a part of the societies they serve. christianity could be dead long before the majority of the planet's populace recognizes the lack of any gods. Right now (as in the current years) christianity is shrinking and islam is growing. Islam could very well see a lifespan of 2000 years, where in 100 christianity will be a minority player (if things continue the way they are now).

the proof of "no god" is easier than most realized and has been documented for a while now. it is just a question of it getting out there and people accepting it. (as with so much. even the most basic discovery in science is not valuable to the public unless they accept it.)

once again may i recommend to all of you to read "the hero with 1000 faces" by Joseph Campbell. if you read the book, you mioght just think more intelligently about mr. Yeshu and all of his look-alike predecessors. and the mithraic art i 've seen doesn't look christian. i don't recall seeing pictures of Yeshu emergong from a rock to be born of the mother gaea, or of yeshu slaying a bull, or challenging the sun. where are these pictures? I'd love to see them, mr. laughter. please at post a link to some of these christian frescoes that portray Yeshu ben Yosef becoming one with Helios, or portrayed with a dog, a raven and a scorpion. are these common motifs in christian art? wow something new to study.thanks. wait-i forget the frescoes of Yeshu bearing the wheel of the zodiac on his shoulders. where is that?

When I see a religion outclass the Roman Catholic Church I will be surprised, it will not happen in my lifetime. Video Games, Movies, school and education is all mostly done through Roman Catholic Beliefs. The RC church is the leading religion in all of these media's which would all have to change as well. God shows up in your money, in your countrys anthem, in the court of law, all of these things.