we have queen elizabeth on our money. does that mean you think we will keep the monarchy tied to this country forever too? things change. traditions change the slowest, but they do change. remember when all the stores closed on sunday?

"outclass" is a dependent on perspective. IMO, there is not a thing on this planet that is not outclassed by the RC church. (the RC had no role in my life, nor will it. don't be so certian of the reaches of the RC. Just because it wants to envelop the world does not mean that it does.)

The RC church does many things that you do not know about to make the world run. To say that the RC church has no role in your life is not true, it makes a lot of changes and effects towards it. Simple fact being posting in this forum, if not for the Church, you wouldnt be having this conversation with me right now. I don't do drugs, but that doesn't mean they don't influence my life at all.

" That makes what the Church does right? I don’t think so. Incidentally of the Christians of the world, Catholicism is less than ½ of that population, and is only 16% or less (depending on which website you take your figures from since one of them really agree) of the world population. Of the non-Catholic Christians, I would say almost none love or trust your church and of the non-Christians of the world, I would say that very few love or trust your church. The numbers you quote doesn’t mean much, he was after all the leader of a state and his fellow Catholics would tend to want to be at his funeral. That has nothing to do with the validity of you church. "

This was said earlier, just wanted to clarify on the actual population.

"The total number of Catholics in the world is over one billion. They are found in nearly every country, though they are more concentrated in the Americas and Europe. They currently make up 63% of the population of North and South America, 40% of Europe, roughly 20% of Sub-Saharan Africa, and 3% of Asia [13]. "

Thats great, more then half of North America and South America are Catholic.

azalin, you are partially correct. life would be a lot better if the influences of the RC were not present. We have an RC PM, for example. We won't effective progressive change on the religious or other traditional fronts so long as those that cling to antequated ways have any power at all.

However, the RC church does not directly have any impact on me. To understand you would have to understand how loosely tied i am to society and to this country. Just because this country does or accepts something does not mean i do. To suggest that just because crosses are hanging on a few buildings that i am affected by the church is a wee bit of a stretch. I am not so niave as to allow the presence of something have influence over me just because of its presence. I am more affected by the presence of bears than the RC (and i have interacted with more bears than RCers - i find them more enjoyable company).

edit: what is good about those numbers is they are on the decline. just because the masses accept something does not mean it is of value. appealing to numbers for justification is a faulty process. We should by now know better than to accept mob rule.

Thats Heresy

there wasnt any theological or doctrinal borrowings in the art. the two religions were having an early version of an advertising war. Mithra slays a bull, Samson slays a lion in a similar scene and so on.

Azalin

I have to say you might be alittle inaccurate on the influence of the Churches granted the mentality does permeate alot of our systems but once not to long ago it was said that the gay expression of love would not be excepted and low and behold it is, My generation the late 60's and 70's are not raising our children with religious Dogma any longer, my parents are as Catholic as they get Devout and in spite of the churches pressure to convert me and we have had issues yet I would not allow the dogma of the church to divide our family, not only do my parents honor the path i walk they respect me and learn from me , example teaches the higher standard is always the model for growth its natural !!! no bibles. no churches, no preaching and it does make an impact many of a person have out grown their religion because of people like Hyper . No Azalin I agree with Hyper we are the new spirituality and soon religion will be like walking to school in the snow. I also noticed you called it blasphmephy to change the ideas of the bible if you hadn't noticed they are the worst ideas mankind has ever held onto, religion has failed humankind in so many ways. Namaste sehri

Let me see 2 billion X $500 average contribution per year = a whole lotta payola.
Brings the phrase " A fool and their money soon part" intop context.
What me think that this could be a reason for keeping the sheep in line with a whole lotta BS.

Nah.....

so your earlier statement on how the "only resemblance was art" was a deliberate lie?

Don't sweat it Gideon, evidentially the sources he quotes never interviewed any members of the religion. We managed (like the true Wiccans) to remain underground, usually disguised as alternate/heretic Christians, while practicing our religion in secret. We managed to survive, although with much difficultie, and have now re-emerged to reclaim our place in society. We have long known how much Christianity borrowed from us the older religion, they are a pale imitation of the true religion.

Off topic here but heh Im going to be honest here, I presonnaly think Christianity is like some religieus kind of dictatorship. You guys have just as less freedom as muslims do Im not a muslim btw but I do know that in my religion.
1. A priest can me male and femal, sex doesnt matter and it shouldnt.
2. We kinda never heard homosexual relationships so nobody really made a rule about that, Im guessing its alright with us.
3. This is something you should decide yourself, if you think its wrong then you shouldnt do it, if you think its ok then you can do it.
4. Nobody is born sinfull, every person is a new life and has its own line, you make your own sins nobody else.

Wow, the Christian hell doesn't even involve fire. Hmmm.

That all depends on what christian group you ask...hellfire is alive and well in churches to this day...

See, this is why Christianity just blows my mind; THEY can't even agree on what to believe in, but each one tells me I am going to hell for MY beliefs. I don't think they are the evil super-power some people on here think, but gosh, they aren't leading by example in this doctrine of love.

"BORROWED"?
actually i am very tired of something and his nonsensical ranting. he quotes one source over and over again, then has not one single example of christian art resembling mithraic. actually, everything in christianity, down to fine details, is stolen from mithra, and quite a few older hero legends.

On the contrary, I don't believe the evidence is anywhere near enough. As I've said, I admit I don't know everything about Mithraism - so Mythra, can you tell me how Grace fits into your faith, and what Mithra's death means. Alternatively, if you have a web link. Perhaps you can convince me after all that Christianity is a copy of Mithraism.

regards, PA

I suggest Mako that you use this reasoning to judge an individual, not a society/religion. If I were to apply the same logic, then because I see drug dealers in Cabramatta (one of the drug centres of Australia), then Cabramatta is a dirty, rotten place filled with dirty rotten people. But then I look and see the beauty of Cabramatta. The spirituality within this suburb - or more correctly, it's population (with a population almost entirely Vietnamese and Chinese, it is sometimes dubbed "Vietnamatta"). the recent moon festival for example was an amazing showing of Asian culture and beliefs.

It's also where I attend Church - Cabramatta Anglican.

But let's ignore all that. Cabramatta is only an evil, vile place, full of drug dealers, drug addicts, gangs, violence and corrupt cops.

Regards, PA

Thank you SLL - that's the one. I remember reading it somewhere on this forum. Maybe it was from you????



About the only thing I agree on this with you is that Grace does have nothing to do with religion.

Regards, PA

Gideon is this not what Christians do? Quote one source over and over again?

Fluffybunny - The first that fire and torture were introduced into the church system was a result of Dante. The Catholics adopted this and turned it to a tool of fear (yet another reason I am not Catholic). So yes, i agree with you that many churches do use torture and pain and fire, but that's not what hell is.

JennRose - There will always be differences in belief structures. That is why God is not found within any organized church/religion. There are however, commonalities of the main points of faith. It is these major themes of the Bible which are important - primarily, Jesus' death and resurrection and us being saved through that Grace. So in this case, even though i've said I don't believe in Catholicism, there will still be Catholics who are saved because they have Faith in Jesus (just as there are people who call themselves Christian who will not be saved).

Regards, PA

Did you know in the KJV the word "Grace" is mentioned 159 times?

Ac 15:11 KJV
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they

Grace has nothing to do with religion?

i just want to see one painting of Yeshu slaying a bull or holding the zodiac in his hand.

I guess it depends on your definition of "religion". The definition by which most adhere to on this forum, that of an organization, then religion does have nothing to do with Grace.

Religion as simple belief in God - maybe Grace does have something to do with this, but you'll be hard pressed to find someone who uses this simple and sole definition of religion.

I see religion as a set of rules people follow; things people do (I can religiously drink coffee while reading the UM forum's, like Mako ).

Regards, PA

The Christian religion?

By your Gods Grave you have eternal life right? I seen a post of yours that you said When your religion states different


Coffee the elixir of life!

That's a sub-section of religion, not a definition.



Nowhere will you find in the Anglican belief that you have to attend an Anglican church (or any church for that matter) to be a Christian. The Mormon's say you have to belong to them. The JW's say you have to belong to them. The Catholic's say you have to belong to them. The Anglican's say you have to accept Jesus. There is no need to belong to an earthly organization.

Regards, PA

To get his "Grace" of ever lasting life. As I said
Wrong....Grace does have a lot to do with "A religion" called Christianity.

I stand by the statement, a tree is judged by the fruit it produces! A Christian’s failings reflect as much on his religion as himself, especially something as heinous as child molestation, brought on my that particular sects teachings.

no, you are reading too much into it. Art, stop there. no theology, no doctrine, just art. Mithraic art has Mithras killing a bull, some Christian artist probably could have copied the exact scene, exchange the bull's head for a lion's, and you've got a story out of the old testament of samson.



i get quite tired of your nonsensical ranting as well. That whole "The Bible was written at the council of Constantinople" remains one of the most incorrect statements i have encountered on this forum. it still makes me laugh.
you're right, i dont have any examples of mithraic or early christian art. i dont care enough about it. but i trust that the collective minds of the experts concerning mithraism could get something right. i really hope that you arent one of those people that think every layer of society is dominated by an evil christian secret society. if you feel you must check this out more, the book is called Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies, published in 1975 by manchester university press. the particular quote i used should be on page 508. get it from a library or through interlibrary loan. im sick of dealing with you, im putting you on ignore.

Right, Mithra was a totally different god, and NO, christianity did not get their teachings from Mithra. Emporer Julian would of wanted that, and he was pushing towards ending christianity until his death and Theodosius took the throne.

the christians hated mithra so musch, since his religion was so similiar, that they had as many of them as they could simply put to death. Ah! classic christian sentiment!

GM
I think it is better called "Classic Christian Solution"!
Burn them at the stake and let God sort them out.

They did not hate Mithra because their religion was similar, they hated them because they were polytheistic.

when trying to re-create history to claim your religion is the originator of ideas lifted from older beliefs, it aids to eliminate the evidence that convicts you of your crimes.

so in your view mass executions of non-christians is justified?
i don't think Yeshu ben Yosef taught that! And hatred? he taught that? no, they mercilessly and gracelessly (pun intended) wiped them out, as in murdered! there are parellels in modern times, like when Hitler had his own "brown shirts" "executed", or when stalin and lenin had their "purges". so hitler, stalin and lenin, by your own terms, were devout christians? good to know. you shall know a tree by the fruit it bears, buddy, and your only fruit is bitter.

Im sick of hearing how the catholic church is condemned for wiping out all other religions. Alright, during those ages, thats what was right. Slavery, death, torture, all of these WERE the law. No one else calls Alexander the Great a murderer, because we swept all through Europe defeating everyone in his path and coverting people to Hellenism. Are you just so mad because Christianity won the war and became the supreme religion during that era ?. If greek Mythology prevailed, and the spartans, and the trojans took over and killed all the christians and become dominant, would you then be cursing them ?. As far as Im concerned, its a lose, lose situation for any of the religions to make it to this day, to of been the most dominant one, you would of had to of destroyed all others.

Who are we to judge, when our ancestors came to North America and destroyed the natives because they would not convert, or give up their lands. Would you actually give respect to a native indian ?, knowing that you are walking on his home, his foundation since his culture was created ? , I highly doubt it.

Stalin, Hitler, they did their deeds because of war, thats exactly what it is. Hitler was a smart man, he rallied his troops together focusing on hate for the jews, cause he knew it worked. How else can you get a mob together, and synchronization, then to pick a weak minority and wipe it out. Its nothing different then Bush sending troops over to " liberate" Afghanistan, or Iran. They just use "liberation" instead of invading them, and too the muslims in their land, this is a holy war for them.

So tell me GD, a person that pays his taxes, to help the troops to go there, and kill these people, that are only doing what they believe is right according to their religion, is that such a righteous thing ?.

Picture North American and the United States as Christianity, and it might as well be, cause 67% of Americans are Christian. The rest of the world are pagan religions, such as these Muslims that "terrorize" the states with their bombings. Are you gonna sit by, and be terrorized, or are you gonna send some people out and wipe out these muslims, who are just following their religion ??. Well I guess history repeats itself, cause U.S.A can kick any armys ass worldwide, and they will do so to make sure they are on top.

??? you seem to forget that muslims follow the same god as christians and jews.

No hyper, thats what we call a metaphor. Whether it's a nation terrorizing us, or a religion, a superpower does not let it do that, it crushes it. If any other religion opposed Christianity during it's reign, it got crushed, if any nation terrorizes the states, it gets crushed, easy as that.

Azalin- or is this Pastor Visser? -I will not even dignify your Fascist ravings by quoting them. No, violence and genocide are not justified, now or in roman times.never! Your might-makes right-fundamentalist Nazi rhetoric is exactly what whould nauseate your Jesus Christ of Nazareth, if he were a real person. I am reporting your anti-semitic racist ravings to the mods.

and your Jesus would weep, if he knew you posted this trash in his name. shame on you for blaspheming him!

Wow I find it frighteneing that you found Hitler to be a "smart" man, Namaste sheri

i am waiting on the mods myself, sherri. this racist trash is not supposed to be tolerated here, i thought.

Nazi rhetoric ?, not once did I agree with Hitler, I only stated he was a genius, and he was, he almost took over the entire world with a small nation like Germany. Look into Time Magazine, look up the top 100 influencial people of all time, you'll see Hitler on there. What he did was evil, but no one can say he is not a smart man, a remarkable public speaker, and influencial icon to of got to where he did.

Go ahead and report me to the mods, the fact is I am right. If you lived in the Roman Era you would know killing was very widely accepted. Just look towards the gladiator pits, where people fought for their life, just for the pleasure of the crowd, because thats what people wanted. When they fed the christians to the lions, and the people in the colloseum cheered for more.

You obviously don't know much about history if you don't agree death was not justified in those era's of history. To this day, we as human beings give out the death penalty, playing god, is this not justified violence ?.

i challenge you to quote your n.t. where Yeshu says, kill all non-chriustians and torture them to death in my name.

Azalin Hitler was a monster how could you say he was a genius it isn't genius to kill millions of people because you are sick with jealosuy over them, I'm sorry but that is horrible and a blatant disregard for the Jewish people that spend there lives to see to it that this never happens again. i agree with you Gideon Namaste sheri

Not once did I even remotely say that those words were said, ESPECIALLY in the bible, I was referring to how christians were killed under the rule of Emporer Nero. Grab a history book, read it for once, here look at this link

"Nero, always a man desparate to be popular, therefore looked for scapegoats on whom the fire could be blamed. He found it in an obscure new religious sect, the Christians.
And so many Christians were arrested and thrown to the wild beasts in the circus, or they were crucified . Many of them were also burned to death at night, serving as 'lighting' in Nero's gardens, while Nero mingled among the watching crowds.
It is this brutal persecution which immortalized Nero as the first Antichrist in the eyes of the Christian church. (The second Antichrist being the reformist Luther by edict of the Catholic Church.)"

http://www.roman-empire.net/emperors/nero-index.html

you said, precisely,


genocied is not justified by any teachings i have read in the n.t.

don't lie on top of the rest of your antisemitic trash, please.

Are you a leader of a nation Shari ?, Can you stand on a podium, and get millions of people under your control and convince them to die for you ?. I know I can't, in fact, I would say maybe a 3% population MIGHT be able to do that. If your saying someone that can do that, is NOT gifted, then thats wrong.

You go to any university, or College, and study World War 2 History, you will see the professor refer to Hitler as a genius. He became very unstable which led to his downfall.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhitler.htm

Go there and read up on him. Once again Im NOT saying I AGREE with what Hitler did, Im just stating that he was in fact a smart, talented man.

This has nothing to do with genocide, this has to do with the LAW at the time of that era. Once upon a time, if you followed anything but Greek Teachings, you were put to death, same with Mithra. Just so happens, when Christianity stepped up to the plate, and that law was once again decreed, for some reason, Christianity stayed on top, and no other emperor or religion changed it's stance on the law.

Its nothing different then killing someone today and going to jail. In the wild west, only 90 or so years ago, if you killed someone, they would hang you for it, simple as that. Laws are changed, re-written on a daily basis in the supreme court. Christianity killed many people, because they dis-obeyed the law at that current time. I can't go back and change that law, neither can the templar knights that enforced it, it was simply the law. If your mad at one Roman Emperor for making that law, then take it out on Theodosius I , because he's the one that decreed it.

You do not understand the essence of Power or the meaning of being a leader of course you think you do, you read this somewhere i guess, One who is empowered, empowers all others one who truly leads makes leaders of all others, Hitler was a coward and a meglomaniac Hitler was a creation of the conciousness which exists to this day,( which is also alive and well in many religions) that is the conciousness of seperation and superiority, this mentality condones and conducts itself in the most heinous of ways, you see the hitler experience shows Humanity to itself it shows humanity how low it can sink Jewish people build monuments so we never forget that those that are of a low conciousness are dangerous, and that no other Hitlers ever hurt again, the days of tryanny and terrorizing others are coming to an end its becoming obvious to many it doesn't work its very simple to be enlightened Azalin you just enlarge your perspective and truly see things as they are and do what works for the betterment of all, Enlightned folks are not revering Hitler as a genius, any one can get followers religons are nototrious for getting people to beleive just about anything, thats not the ear mark of a genius. Namaste sheri

Christianity is not a religion. Anglicanism is a religion. Catholicism is a religion, Buddhism is a religion. Islam is a religion. Paganism is a religion. Christianity is a way of life.

Religion is about following a set of rules and rituals.