Is that to imply that all Christians are child molestors then?

Using my example of Cabramatta, should I just judge the entire area on the fact that I can readily get drugs from there?

I agree with you Azalin. What Hitler did was wrong. It was violent, bigoted and hateful. But he was a smart man. Anyone who can rally an entire nation to him under a cause is smart.

Statements of Hitler's intelligence and cunning do not translate into condoning his actions.

Regards, PA

Hey Azalin, great political cartoon in the local paper today. Shows a very evil looking Pope getting ready to snuff a candle labeled "Gay Priests" while behind him the entire room is a raging inferno labeled "Pedophile Priests"! As you can see, I am not even a minority, most people can see the truth that you ignore. Another reason the Church is dying a long painful death!

No, it just means that all of you are tarred with the same brush as the pedophiles.

I seen the same cartoon but could not find it online to post it.
Seen another one where the Pope was saying that there will be no more gay priests in the church and the whole room of priests were walking out.

Is this how you feel about Native Americans?
Would you destroy them again?
Would you take their lands and push them onto small reservations (Often far from his ancestral lands) where it was very hard for a man to feed his family again?
Do you show respect to any Native American when you walk past him or her?


Are you ashamed of what your ancestors did to my ancestors?

And to two branches of my ancestry (Cherokee and Choctaw), even after they accepted your God and your ways?

Blackfeet Nation here!

Good friend of mine is a sworn blood enemy of your people. Dean is an Oglala Souix, whose grandfather (or was it Great Grandfather) was at Little Big Horn, his first fight as a warrior and was at Wounded Knee as an Army Scout - the two defining battles of the Souix and he was on the winning side each time - again as CD says - Go Figger!

No zandore, and Im glad to hear you are native, I as well am BlackFoot indian, as well as Irish. I would of did my best to live with with indians. North American was big enough to do this.

Sounds like the wiggle-worm is at it again! What wordsmithing skills you have there PA.

Christianity is as much a religion as is all others, even by the last sentence in the above quote.



indeed. It is completely valid to acknowledge the intelligence of Hitler while condemning his actions.

THANK YOU.... , thats all I wanted lol.

actually, we need to acknowledge his stupidity in exiling the one group of people who were capable of stopping him, by creating the atom bomb. he was so stupid that he let the very same group of scientists escape his grasp that later brought about the defeat of the axis. yep, hitler was about as brilliant as a piece of feces, and brought about his own defeat. if it weren't for the jewish scientists that he got rid of, we'd all be speaking german now. "I shall bless them that bless you, and curse them that curse you." where did we read that?

What are you talking about now ?. Albert Einstein was the lead developer in the creation of the Atom Bomb, and he was German. Well he developed the formula which was later taken and created by the US. The Allies captured Einstein because he feared for his life working under Hitlers rule. Once the United States aquired him, they put his theories to use and made the bomb. The list of it's creators go like this -

Albert Einstein, Robert Oppenheimer, David Bohm, Leo Szilard, Eugene Wigner, Otto Frisch, Rudolf Peierls, Felix Bloch, Niels Bohr, Emilio Segre, James Franck, Enrico Fermi, Klaus Fuchs and Edward Teller

No jewish people in that list.

I know that it has been discused a lot in this thread, but to convince a whole nation of hating the Jew, you've got to be a genius. Now, that Hitler was a genius of evil, we both agree on that

Well, the truth is it takes more than just a man. Hitler was a product of his times. His approach fit with the conditions, otherwise he would not have risen the way he did. Also, had hitler not come along when he did, there is a good chance somebody else of similar ilk would have (and who knows if they would have been more or less successful at their agenda than hitler).

Never forget to account for the entire system! If Germany had not been next to bancruptcy because of events stemming from WW1, there would not have been the foundation necessary for the Nazis to rise to power the way they did.

Yeah, we agree on that, but you gotta give credit to the man himself right?

indeed, i am not taking away from hitler. I am just stressing that no matter how capable one is, the surrounding environs have to be receptive for that individual to be effective.

WRONG!

Source

source

Source

Dude that is three Jewish scientists on you list right there, how many more are there? I don't have time to look for all of YOUR references for you. Do you have a problem with the Jewish faith?


EDIT:Fixed Oppenheimer link.

I stand corrected on the Jewish people that were used to create the Atomic bomb, and I give those props to you Zandore for pointing out my mistake. My main conclusion was that Einstein who was a german created the formula which stemmed it's creation.

I have nothing against the jewish people or their faith, in fact, if anything, I envy them for being the Chosen people of God.

I am calling you on this.
What and where are your sources for your information?
I did 3 for you so that still leaves 11 for you to find.

What diturbs me is a few are driving the point home at the so called genius of Hitler which is a matter of perspective, as pointed out by myself and gideon and hyper anyone could of done what hitler did waht interests me is that very little is said about how a monster who thinks he's right needlessly hurt millions I for one remember the experience under those conditions to remind us how low mankind can sink, there is no other message and there are those that share this forum with us that should be respected and i feel it very offensive that Hitler is being held up as some role model, gideon i am truly sorry for the insensitivity of some Namaste Sheri

Same here Gid.

As I said before Sheri (almost wrote Sherri again ): Hitler was a monster, plain and simple. I just said that he was smart enough to convince people to do such a monstrosity. He is by no means a role model. In fact, it goes the OTHER way round

I have said the same thing in a different thread months ago

Really? Where? I've got some kinda short-term memory loss, just like Dory, you know?

I am not sure what thread or when but I do remember going at it with someone about if hitler would go to heaven. I said no and they were saying yes.

zanny,
i seem to recall that discourse. Was it about how no matter what you do, christianity has the "excape hell" clause by which last minute repention absolves you of all?

but hyper, many christians believe exactly. and it is really true that he chose to exile or kill off the jews, when he could have had the bomb. not a good choice.not an intelligent choice. a choice by a stupid man who had already outlived his early charisma. did you know that the jewish executions were a sacrifice to satan. satan either didn't care or hadn't the ability to help.strangely, their might not have been a modern israel without Adolf Schickelgruber.

That was it.
No matter what kind of person you were, what you did, you got into Heaven.
I said BS then and I say BS now. I want no part of a "Religion" that would let a soul like that (hitler for an example) in to the so called afterlife.

BTW: That is assuming there was a God.

He was simply a smart talented man, thats all we are getting at. We have all agreed we do not agree with the actions he took, but his insane nature doesn't mean he was not a great public speaker.

Charles Manson even, insane pyschopath, smart man ?, yes. Do you know that they will not even allow him phone calls, or the ability to see anyone, because of his great ability to manipulate people ?. He can talk to you over the phone, and by the end of the call, make you feel guilty for him. If that's not a superior skill , then what is ? , creating an atomic bomb ?, designing a car ?.

Most insane people are actually quite smart, hence the term, MAD scientist.

Once again, I am not saying Manson, or Hitler are not seriously disturbed individuals that carried out ruthless acts, however, robbing them of there intelligence of organizing these deeds is just wrong as well.

Oppenheimer was insane for creating an atomic bomb that killed hundreds of thousands ? no he's a genuis. Or Theodore John Kaczynski, the unabomber, he was insane for sending dozens of mail bombs, however it's quoted

"One of his professors at Michigan, George Piranian, said, "It is not enough to say he was smart." He earned his Ph.D. by solving, in less than a year, a math problem that Piranian himself had been unable to solve. Kaczynski's specialty was a branch of complex analysis known as geometric function theory. "I would guess that maybe 10 or 12 people in the country understood or appreciated it,"

Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski

And for the Atom bomb information Zandore, you can check out
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa050300a.htm

Im not sure when this whole thread got derailed, but in the end, although humanity hates these individuals, nothing says they were not smart, organized, or even gifted to earn so much hate. Personally, I despise all of these people for their roles in history, but Im am just not ignorant enough to put aside their intelligence.

I also don't agree with that. Believe in God and then do whatever you want? That's not in my book yanno?
Paul in Romans talks about that, I don't exactly remember the chapter (I think it was 6). I would do a Google search, but since I'm feeling kinda lazy now, I won't do it

The main thing Jpalz is if you repent your sins before you die, yes you will go to Heaven, as God forgives you. Thats the covenant that Jesus brought to the world.

On 2nd August, 1939, three Jewish scientists who had fled to the United States from Europe, Albert Einstein, Leo Szilard and Eugene Wigner, wrote a joint letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt, about the developments that had been taking place in nuclear physics. They warned Roosevelt that scientists in Germany were working on the possibility of using uranium to produce nuclear weapons.

Roosevelt responded by setting up a scientific advisory committee to investigate the matter. He also had talks with the British government about ways of sabotaging the German efforts to produce nuclear weapons.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWatom.htm

I vote that it should die out. It's only fair. Christianity has wiped out countless other religions as well as civilizations throughout history. Certain events in the bible may have occurred, but that doesn't mean that the Bible itself has not been heavily sensationalized over the millenia. Much like the Vampire legend. Thus, Christianity has RAPED Vampirism and religions such as Wicca wich are only evil because the church said so.
Sorry if this is in the wrong place, but if it were put elsewhere you may not have seen it.
...I'm done

Indeed, we agree on that. The point I was getting to is that you can't think "Oh, now that I believe in God I can do whatever I want". As a matter of fact, I was right in the quote in Romans. Romans 6:

And then it goes on and on.

Wow it doesn't take much to impress you,I don't buy that anyone is manipulated or outwitted and ends up killing because of it, Denial is a effective tool, I stand firm the germans cheered on Hitler they didn't feel they were wrong in their hatred of the Jews Hitler didn't think he was doing anything wrong why would he Millions were supporting him, all systems were go in this situation, I guess we all have concepts of intellegence mine just doesn't happen to be Hitler or manson , Manson was a drug addict who manipulated religious kids how Genius is that ??? You give him too much credit. I think much can be gained from the experience of Hitler and Manson but i wouldn't lean in the direction of Now here folks is an example of intellegence or Genius LOL But thats kool we can agree to disagree Namaste sheri

Hitler and Manson...overrated. Talent does not equal genius. Manson had the vocabulary of a third grader, and the only reason people were "swayed" by him was that they were either sympathetic, or under the influence of drugs. Read Helter Skelter. (And that gentleman who "sympathized" with him, said he almost understood Manson, but understanding does not mean that people want to go out and kill people)
And describing Hitler as great? Intelligent? Sure the man had a talent for speaking to the public, but a lot of his so-called ideas were derived from Aryan magazines and his actual advisors. Read Mein Kampf, he even says he had borrowed ideas. The only great thing about Hitler was that the coward committed suicide.
And Oppenheimer was hardly insane. What to you constitutes as insanity? The man had perfect mental health. You seem to be confusing the two.
edit: I don't think you know what the word insanity means. It means not sane. Charles Manson and Hitler and Oppenheimer, were psychopaths. And psychopaths are classified as sane because they are aware of their actions. And bear in mind, there are quite a few dim psychopaths. So either way your examples aren't at all comparable.

You mean this last sentence?



Christianity is not about following rules and rituals. THere is absolutely nothing I can do to earn God's favour. It's all about what God has already done.

Regards, PA

so you don't take communion, and were never baptized? You kill people and disrespect your parents? Do you go to church on Tuesdays? I guess so if you don't follow rules and rituals. no Xmas or Easter either? Gee, most Christians perform a lot of rituals.

Christianity cannot change, because Christianity IS about fundamentalism. Christians are the ones least prone to self-criticism and scrutinization of the Bible.

You speak of forgiveness, I think the only Christian ones getting forgiveness are the ones who call themselves Baptists. They embrace adults, and don't brainwash small children to become believers, like the rest does.

"Love your neighbour"? I'm not trying to offend you Joc, but I remember you writing in a political thread here on UM about "...the communist whore Joan Baez..." for her singing about peace and being anti-war (back in the 1960:s).
That's pretty aggressive for someone apparently being a loving Christian as you depict yourself.

So how many of the "inventors" that was on your list that you said was not of the Jewish faith was in fact Jewish? At least 3 were.


I think it could have been you anti-Semantic and anti Native American comments.

What individuals? The inventors of the A-Bomb?

You hate all these people?
What of the people that hate for the sole reason of someones religion? The color of their skin? Their race? Or even just because they do not agree with the way you think?

I feel as the world grows religion must grow. Sin is out there and you will be sinful no matter what you do. God forgives us of our sins? It's very hard to live in the world today and pressure somebody into believing what you believe. I think now that we have so many opinions out there that you don't need to pressure somebody into picking up a bible. God will come to them atleast one time in their lives, and I believe that is enough to make somebodies mind up if that is the route they'd like to take. If We could use more percentage of our brain then there is a chance we could be perfect. Intil we can reach that evolutionary process of brain building. We will always sin no matter what happens. Then once we evole to a certain level...there will then come a time where we will begin to devolve. Then thats when problems will occure.

Sheri - how much do you actually know of Hitler? And I don't mean the stuff they teach you in history class. Have you ever seen any tapes or records released by Hitler?

I recently studied a 1 hour propaganda video that Hitler released during his reign. To say the least it was disturbing. The man was smiling, laughing, giving speeches to thousands of people on how all he wanted was peace, but the evils of other nations meant that peace may need to be earnt. He was a very influential speaker. Though I had to watch subtitles to understand what he was saying, his mannerisms were most impressive. He was charismatic, engaging. Without the benefit of hindsight, I can't say I wouldn't have bought into what he was saying.

As I've said, I don't condone in any way hitler's actions. This video though was an amazing piece of work. It showed me just how much they leave out of High School History.

Regards, PA

Isn't that what many people today say? Whatever floats your boat. Whatever works for you. As long as you're true to yourself, then that's all that matters.

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

Note what I said previously GM. All other faiths are about what you HAVE to do to reach enlightenment, or get right with God or be happy or whatever. Things like "well, this is ok for the lay person, but if you want to be a TRUE believer, you must do.......".

None of what you've said I HAVE to do. If I don't go to church, or don't get baptized, or don't take communion, or don't celebrate Christmas, that doesn't mean I'm not Christian. I don't even have to read the Bible to be Christian! Indeed I've said there are probably people out there who don't go to church that would be Christian because they understand that Jesus died for them.


As an aside, I disagree with the way churches have ritualised Communion. But then again, the church is a religion - Catholicism is a religion. Protestantism is a religion. Christianity is not. Christianity does not require me to do any of the things you mentioned.

And if you think not killing someone is a ritual, you really have problems.

Regards, PA

This was in reference to hitler.

If a person can not be true to them self then there is no one that they can be truthful to.

I hear people saying things similar to this off and on and every time I hear it, I have to pick my jaw up off the floor. I am Christian and I do not have one excuse for people like this. It is simply not true. You can repent for a lot, murder is not one you can repent for, except for self-defense. So, I don't know what makes people think genocide is repentable. Then these same people run around wondering why people hate religion. There is not one thing that can be said about it, except for please excuse their stupidity, walk away and ignore them.

As for Hitler. From one man stemmed an entire war. Does it make him genius - NO. My daughter was shown a video in school (If I can think of the name, I will post it, it has been so long I have forgotten) about a teacher that did an experiment on his students. He formed a "group" called The Wave that included just his students.

He made them feel "special", then slowly planted seeds of hatred in them and began forcing other students out that did not meet their criteria. It was horrible. At the end of this experiment, he gathered them in the auditorium and told them he was now going to show them who they had been following. He showed them a video of Hitler.

Now - this was just a video. I don't believe any school board would actually allow this to happen. The purpose of this experiment was to get this kids to THINK. Think before you act, know what you are following. It showed how easily people can follow others. It really taught my daughter a valuable lesson. I think she is a better person today for it, a more compassionate person towards others.

So as for Hitler being a genius, no he was not and he is not going to any Heaven I know. But, we as people need to stop being followers and start thinking for ourselves.

I know and understand what you are saying. I agree with what you are saying, BUT......Per Christian tenet even a person as vile as hitler can get into your religions version of heaven. When the Bible was written the authors had no way of knowing that a person like hitler would one day exist so there was no provision put in to deny a mass murderer entrance.

I see your point Zandore, and I am afraid any answer I gave to that would not satisfy you and probably just lead to more debate and go off subject.

So..... I will just say, I am happy we can agree on SOME things, especially something as serious as this.

Amy