Very true.

oh no... not this age old faulty excuse for a god again!

joc: what i was refering to is that in order to think of forgiveness you have to first be "judging" the person or act as needing forgiving, as being some sort of transgression. I was refering to moving beyond this act of judging and forgiving and seeing things without such constructs/rules/biases/judgements.

ruckis: indeed the teachings of the philosophers are very common. quite a bit of that has to do with cross-influencing and the general building on top of previous work. What makes christianity so pointless is it brought nothing new to the table. All it did was perfect the rather unhealthy dominance and paranoia that sprang from babylon. Could anything more be expected when the very root of the religion is faulty?

Joc this is a disscussion forum this particular section is more passionate, its not personal, You were asking my understanding on forgiveness and I can assure you it is profound, Try not to get so upset we are in disagreement nothing more than that Namste sheri

Completely false. Except for the first sentence....forgiveness has nothing to do with religion....and Wrong, wrong, wrong...it IS our job to forgive each other...God's forgiveness of us depends on it...

...Jesus said...If you forgive those who have sinned against you then God will forgive you of your sins...if you do not forgive those who have sinned against you neither will
God forgive you of your sins....

gah! you all are just talking smack now.

nothing new to the table with the exception of mormons all religions date back to before b.c. including christianity so no religion brings anything new to the table it is only people that put a new spin on it including christanity. Now I'm not saying that the spin is right or wrong, I'm just saying all of it IS ALL OLD NOTHING IS NEW

Joc read hypers last post there is not only one understanding of forgiveness, I wans't trying to incinuste that I'm smarter I too was once where you are you are allowing yuor religion to keep you from growing , there are levels of understanding that I don't comprehend it doesn't mean i'm an idiot it means I am where I am just as you are, you are defining in terms of dualism there is life beyond dualism. namaste sheri

smackin' dem dang foos widda twoof!

smoke 'em if you got 'em

I don't have a religion Sheri...

...I live in the Real World where people DO hurt other people....where Bad People DO exist and the pain they cause IS real....all that 'your just hurting yourself' crap doesn't cut it in the world of Reality. You may be 'enlightened'....I could care less. I am grounded in Reality. And that works for me....

you DO NOT have to forgive others to get into heaven you just have to treat them right even if you hate them its is only human to have human flaws like hate dislike not forgiving, we are not god so their for we do not have to be perfect. TPerfection IS NOT what God asks for he only asks that we try to basically be good.

and do you know why that is? (or should i ruin it for all by telling)

Solomon said the same thing....there is nothing new under the sun...

say it any way you want, the fact is tele-evangelists water the message down. Why? Because they don't like what the Bible says and think that by sugar coating it or by ignoring it, they can present a more "appealing" gospel.

Just because you don't like what the Bible says does not make it outmoded or outdated. Take it or leave it Sheri, that's what it says. People don't like being told what to do.

That said though, as joc has said, the message of the Bible is about forgiveness. By ignoring forgiveness, tele-evangelists (and others too, not just them - I'm using them as a prominent example) water the Bible down to being good people, which is just plain obvious to most.

Sorry for the rant.

Regards, PA

Are you the new Jesus?

I am just going by what the 'old' Jesus said. I figure he sort of knows about the forgiveness thing.

don't tell me because you were their when all religion was created then rencanarted with all the wisdom of the past in order to enlighten us this evening?

hint: the answer lies between your ears. think of that most evil of words to the creationists.....

Like I said before Dude...I live in the real world..I'm not gonna argue with the likes of you....

it has to do with the human brain evolving to the point were man understood that the "voices" were internal and not coming from some external invisible source.

unfortunately many still fall victim to the effects of "legacy hardware" still found in the brain.

their are many places in the bible and all religions for that matter that often contradict themselves I do believe that acceptance is the most important lesson of the bible thats what i take with me to my place of worship weather it be inside a church, temple, or a meadow I truly belive that their would not be the problems in the world that there are today if people practice simple acceptance. Starting with myself sorry

Please name them. I'm not asking in a challenging way, but I hear this a lot.
I cannot find these contradictions so many speak of.

I was referring to the Ideas PA they are outmoded and outdated they don't work and there has been enough time for them to be effective but you know me PA. I have left the bible you are correct i do have a choice, i don't need to be told what to do, ithere is no need to temper my actions they are always guided by love. Namaste sheri

stillcrazy,
check out these threads:

bible contradictions search on UM

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
theirs a million more do you want anything paticular?

Yeah anyone can google anything....you didn't come up with that list by yourself....

no but it is from the bible a question was asked so i answed what does it matter how I answered look it up chapter and verse is correct word for word from the bible

good call hyper

Because...I don't think SC was asking for a googled list...I think he was asking you directly what YOU find so conradictory about the Bible....but then I am not SC and am not speaking for him.

Besides all of that...this entire argument is silly..............


....enlightened by the promise of sleep....

As most people they take 1 verse and say it contradicts another.

The full meaning of the first verse quoted.

Exodos 15:3 " Exo 15:3 Jehovah is a Man of war; Jehovah is His name. "

Full text

14:30 So Jehovah saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians. And Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the seashore.
Exo 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which Jehovah did upon the Egyptians. And the people feared Jehovah, and believed Jehovah and His servant Moses.
Exo 15:1 Then the sons of Moses and Israel sang this song to Jehovah, and spoke, saying, I will sing to Jehovah, for He has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider He has thrown into the sea.
Exo 15:2 Jehovah is my strength and song, and He has become my salvation. He is my God, and I will glorify Him, my father's God, and I will exalt Him.
Exo 15:3 Jehovah is a Man of war; Jehovah is His name.
Exo 15:4 Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has thrown into the sea; his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red Sea.
Exo 15:5 The depths have covered them; they sank into the bottom like a stone.
Exo 15:6 Your right hand, O Jehovah, has become glorious in power. Your right hand, O Jehovah, has dashed the enemy in pieces.
Exo 15:7 And in the greatness of Your excellency You have overthrown them that rose up against You. You sent forth Your wrath, consuming them like stubble.

The verse when read in conjunction with the rest of the book, does not contradict itself. The story is how God delivered the Jews from the pursuing Egyptians.

I could go through each one and do the same thing. But I think I have made my point. Just like the folks who claim they are christians, and pick and choose verses to condemn and spread hate. Reading and studying the bible are two different things. BTW I have seen all these so calle contradictions before. And I suggest, that instead of cut and pasting others work. Do your own. Come to your own conclusions.

I am not trying to convert anyone, but if you are going to make comments such as this please, do your own research.

Right... either still crazy gets called SC or I do... ;P I dun like comming into threads and seeing "SC wanted..." and I'm like.. er.. I.. didn't want anything...

XD *snickers*

One contradiction I have wondered about is why did God let Cain off so easy - but later put in law that a murderer shall be killed.
The Bible does not indicate that Abel's death was incidental by any means.

[15] And the LORD said to him, "Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him. Gen 4:15

[20] If he pushes him out of hatred or, while lying in wait, hurls something at him so that he dies, [21] or in enmity he strikes him with his hand so that he dies, the one who struck him shall surely be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him. Num 35:20-21

I am not a Bible scholar, so that anything I say is pure opinion.

The first verse you mention is Cain's punishment for killing Abel. It was far worse for Cain to be shunned and set apart, than it was for him to be killed outright. God wanted Cain to suffer to pay for his crime. The vengeance that is mentioned is for anyone who would look to kill Cain against the wishes of God.

The second set of verses you mention are in effect a law of determining Murder, and just killing or accidental killing. It gave a member of the "congregation' the authority to act on God's behalf to deal with those who would commit wanton murder.

Again, this is just my understanding of the verses you mentioned.

How so is it discrimination? I believe joc said homosexual or heterosexual or bi-sexual. Equal discrimination - isn't that a contradiction in terms, especially when you classify yourself in that list......... Hmm.

Regards, PA

You obviously don't know the concept of grace then. As joc said, Christianity is about forgiveness, but more than that it is about Grace.

Regards, PA

Just so everyone is straight on this

My initials are sc

SilverCougar's are SC

What does it matter? THere's a thing called context, which you could not possibly know if you just googled this information. Most "contradictions" come because people take one line out of the entire book and match it up with one line from somewhere else. But who cares about context - you already know the Bible's full of them, right? *cough* *sarcasm* *cough*

Regards, PA

Stillcrazy,

Thank you for your reply. I guess I fail to see where Cain's punishment was worse than he being killed. Cain was allowed to settle in the land of Nod, marry, and have a son whom he named Enoch. Enoch built a city named after his son. So Cain enjoyed family, grandchildren, etc. It never says that Cain had remorse for what he did, nor that he tried to repent (to God).

The bible does not say Cain killed Abel accidentally, so it must be assumed that he killed Abel in anger and jealousy. (That was his mood prior to this). I think that would qualify for the verdict in Num. 35 which states: "..or in enmity (ill-will) he strikes him with his hand so that he dies.." -- verdict: death.

If you really want to go into specifics Odyssey, the Law given at Mt. Sinai hadn't been given yet at this time. It is feasible to assume that there were some laws God gave, yet the punishment decreed at Sinai may not have been the same.

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

Gen 4:13 - And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment [is] greater than I can bear.

He burdens God as a cruel judge because he punished him so severely.

Your right he does not repent and in fact lays the blame on God for his punishment. Because this was the first murder committed, God had to have a way to deal with the murders that were to come. But he also had to have a way to deal with accidental deaths. The verses you mentioned earlier are a separate area from Cain and Abel. (The ones dealing with punishment for murder.)

Consider this:

Eve sinned and caused Adam to sin. When God confronted them, what did Adam do?
He blamed the woman! It was her fault God! What did Eve do? She blamed the Serpent..It was his fault God! Did anyone ask for forgiveness for what they had done? No. When Cain killed Abel did he ask for forgiveness? No.

So...from the beginning..the very beginning...Man has had an unforgiving calous heart. Consider also that every living creature on Earth dies. What happened to Man when he disobeyed God's only commandment was that he became just another animal on the planet. But God loved the human animal more than all the others...he created the human animal to be different than the rest of the animals. There is only one way to get back to the Garden of Eden...and that is through forgiveness. It is not a natural state of Man to forgive or be forgiven. Through Jesus Christ we have forgiveness and yes...it is because of God's Grace.

look OUTSIDE the abrahamic universe PA!

Welcome Odyssey to the UM forum.

Back on topic.
If this is to be about the contradictions ( ) and absurdities ( ) in the Bible then bring up a thread or start a new one.

I don't know how many ways this can be said the only god there is is the imaginings of mens minds,


PA i was making a blanket staement that the bible is discriminitory across the board, a word on GRACE Pa grace is the beautyy that permeates all of the universe and includes the inhabitants , grace is the feminine essence of the feminine the strength of the masculine, the movement of the waves the vivdness of the sunset, i understand how you are interpreting it and you religous folk think that the bible is the end all philosophy on the universe and its meanings its one philosophy and a very poor one at that , the philosophy in the bible has nothing to do with intuitive understanding its a manual on how to be a martyr IMO Namaste sheri

i must say sherri, that is a very narrow view of the bible.
i feel i must also comment on your lack of periods in your posts. i know you are capable of using them, and it helps greatly with my understanding of what you are saying.

in regards to the OP, spong is usually seen as living in his own little bubble by the rest of christianity.

SLL,

I would not be offended in the least if you choose to skip over my posts, as its so difficult for you to imagine where a period would be. namaste sheri

Sheri - do you even know what Grace is?

Grace

It means many things

I meant Grace in the sense that it is used in the Bible, eg - "For it is by Grace you have been saved" (Ephesians 2:8)

pa-do you even know who theodosius was?

Those who consider themselves to be 'enlightened' have no need for Grace nor Forgiveness as they are far above all that....

PA and joc:

what you are missing in your claims of grace is the following:

belief structures prior to the abrahamics granted the equivilant of this grace except that there was never a suffering prior to it to be granted grace from! This grace concept is a remolding of ideas lifted from ancient eastern philosophies. Science and christianity don't get along because science requires you cite your sources, for one reason.

the grace granted by the abrahamic god is grace from his own tormenting of you! this is the equivilant to me injecting you with a poison and telling you if you do as i say i will inject you with the cure before it is too late. A prime example of how the abrahamics are all about control and dominance. Many do not need this grace you speak of because we have not been given the poicson it is a cure for.