Christianity, as it exists today, must change greatly or risk dying out. This is the conviction of thousands of people today who love the original message of Jesus, but who are repelled by the gross distortions passed off as "the Word of God" by the fundamentalist and narrow-minded churches.
Have any of you heard of John Shelby Spong, the controversial retired Bishop of Newark, New Jersey? If anyone can put HEART back into Christianity, he can! A strong proponent of Christian Reformation, he bravely champions the rights of gays and lesbians, the right of priests to marry if they wish, and the right of women to be priests. His book "Living in Sin" argues convincingly against the absurd fundamentalist belief that sex before marriage is sinful. Also, he totally rejects the doctrine of Original Sin.
According to John S. Spong, "In many of its details, the Bible is simply WRONG!" He says that, throughout history, the Bible has often been used to justify war, slavery, segregation and apartheid. "It defines women as inferior creatures and suggests that homosexual persons be put to death." Spong says the Bible is NOT the literal Word of God. As for me, I would say that it is a mixture of spiritual inspiration and guidance, human opinions (such as St Paul's attitude to women, and his condemnation of homosexuals), mistranslations, misinterpretations, and the history of the chosen people as they slaughtered thousands of men, women and children in the Name of their vengeful God.
John Spong also speaks out against the Church's protection of abusive priests, and against the hypocrisy of the Religious Right in politics. His books on Progressive Christianity (about 15 of them) include "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism", "Liberating the Gospels", "Why Christianity must Change or Die", and "The Sins of Scripture".
Anyone interested in reading more can visit these links:
www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong
www.bishopspong.com
.............................................................. Namaste, Mark

I suggest you read the Bible yourself and draw your own conclusions....not adhere blindly to what ANY theologian espouses....they all have their own agendas....and more oft than not, their agenda is not Gods's agenda...

well, christianity is on the decline.

however, it has in the past and will most likely continue to remold itself to retain any relevency. It is past that point now though. People are becoming more aware of the core deficiencies of the abrahamic teachings. Once critical thought became a part of humanity christianity was doomed to extinction.

Christianity is dying out because in order to make the Bible "taste better" to the non-Christians, the message is watered down to the point where it doesn't really matter anymore. etvisitor is right in that - the message keeps changing, but it should be the same message as has always been.

Of all denominations only the pentacostals are growing, and it's arguable whether this is because they really have the "truth" or whether the people go for the experience of a "high-roller" church, as 101 puts it.

On a personal note, in a country where church attendance is declining at a rate of 2% a year, my church and indeed many Anglican churches around the Sydney diocese has increased by 400% over the past 3 years (we jumped from 30 people to 120 in that short time). Why? We're a conservative church with conservative and traditional beliefs. The simple answer is that the word of God is NOT watered down. Christianity actually means something in our church and people see that Christianity is different. It's not just yay! accept Jesus and give us money.............

Regards, PA

well, PA, the issue is with "the word of god". Watered down is what has allowed christianity to linger on well past its expiry date. In its true form it totally displays its contradictory incompleteness. Its end is at hand (unless humanity takes another step backwards that is, which would allow it to cling on a while longer).

I have read the Bible myself, and have reached my own conclusions through the process of searching for my own God Light within my heart. The conclusions I've reached over many years are very much in agreement with the bulk of John Spong's conclusions. So I'm not blindly believing what he or anyone else says.
Fundamentalist Christians, when you really search deep in your heart, do you really come to the conclusion that your God of Love says that (1) women have no right to be priests on an equal status with men?
(2) homosexual love relationships are sinful, even though they are an expression of true love? After all, God is Love!
(3) sex before marriage is sinful?
(4) all humans are born sinful, in "Original Sin"? Is an innocent, new-born baby a sinner?

If you believe the abovementioned, without throwing your own Inner God-Light on it, then you are indeed BLIND believers!

It is an ironic twist that the greatest enemy of Christianity is not some imaginary Lucifer boogey man, but the fundamentalist Christians themselves, wit their their insistence of a 6000 year old earth, total ignorance of science, "witch doctor" demon chasing ministers who terrify their followers into drowning their own children, and endless tales of the corruption and excesses of tele-evangelists with their fleets of cadillacs and dozen homes. More than anything else, it is these fools who are driving people from true Christianity. If Lucifer were a real entity, then his greatest acheivement to overthrow Christianity must have been the creation of the fundamentalists.

You are confusing issues. On the one hand you seem to speaking about Christianity. On the other hand you seem to be speaking about Law and Religion.



Never heard of him. The conclusions I've reached over many years are very much in agreement with the bulk of Jesus Christ's conclusions...Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind...and Love your neighbor as yourself.

The 'Fundamental' of Christianity is thus:

Forgive and be forgiven. Jesus showed us the way to forgiveness...

...Christianity is about Forgiveness...nothing more...nothing less...if you make it out to be any thing else then you are as hypocritical as the 'fundamentalists' you criticize. Don't get me wrong....the Fundamentalists don't get it...the Baptists don't get it...The Methodists, The Catholics, the whatever thehell you want to call them...don't get it....I get it..a few others get it...forgiveness. Period.

I think that people cannot debate religion or politics. Not because it shouldn't be discussed but because it is simply not humanly possible to respect and realize that no one is wrong. I don't think that Christianity will die out, I think that the basics of Christianity will die out from un acceptance , from not loving thy neighbor from not turning the other cheek even when someone has different views from your own, including religion.

Out of curiosity...does anyone here think that some teachings of Christianity are outmoded?

Has with most 'enlightened scientific' people, the above quote show a lack of understanding of peoples faiths. And not just Christians, but Muslims, Jewish, , Wiccans and so on and so forth.

The folks referenced above, are but a very minute minority of the overall people of faith. Granted they are a vocal bunch, but in all reality do not represent the mainstream people.

Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are The man who heads the Westboro Baptist Church, and his anti-gay and U.S. Military. He see's gods hand in the death of all innocent people just because he can connect them through weak links to whatever. (Most of the time he can't even do that)

Flip side of the coin, is Lakewood Mega church. The feel good christians group. God will give whatever you ask, feel good about asking for a new car, you deserve it for keeping God's word.

Any 'Religion' can be bastardized by smooth talking leaders. Look at Jim Jones.
Faith in a bible, or the Koran, or the Jewish torah cannot be reversed by a man's word

As a person of faith, I do not disagree with science, as the both can be compatable with each other, but only if both sides are willing to work with each other.
Christianity does not need to change, Christians do.

if these were original christian ideas you might be onto something but they are just part of the long list of ideas lifted from others.

True the ideas of forgiveness will survive long beyond christianity. Part of reaching this "higher ideal" is the abandonment of things like the abrahamic religions. When people see beyond the falsehoods of the judeo/christian/islamic philosophy the people will be moving closer to understanding and respecting one another.

What teachings are you refering to? Loving thy neighbor? Forgiveness?

Look, The Churches are not Christianity. Christianity is not based on laws and religious activity. The Churches are based on Law and Religion. Christianity is about Forgiveness...that's it.

All right, for example, do you think that sex before marriage is sinful?

A lot of people have sex before marriage...
A lot of the teachings of the Bible stem from traditions, like not eating animals with cloven hooves. Do you think it's outmoded in that sense?

Can you tell me where to find that in the bible. New testament.

Oh, I don't think so...I don't think Morality is outmoded. Sex before marriage has gotten us exactly where? A plethera of STDs, unwanted pregnancies, abortion on demand, a divorce rate that is laughable....

....it doesn't matter though...the point isn't whether or not it is a sin...the point is whether or not your sins are forgiven.

Ah, I see what you mean. Ignore that, (it's the Old Testament) I'll try to give a better example next time. But related to what the original post says, does anyone feel that some of the teachings are outmoded?

buy joc, morality has nothing to do with christianity. it existed before 2000 years ago and it will exist as long as man walks the earth. it does not come from religion or abraham or jesus, or muhammed, or buddha, etc. It comes from the evolution of man himself as a social animal.

Stillcrazy - Leviticus 11 lists the clean and unclean food laws. However, Jesus fulfilled this by saying that it's not what goes into our mouths that make us unclean, but what comes out that makes us unclean.

Regards, PA

That is my point H.A....morality has nothing to do with christianity...

I will say it one more time:

Christianity is about one thing and one thing ONLY....forgiveness...That's why Jesus came, that is what he taught and preached about when he was here...and that is what he exampled on the cross...forgiveness. It is no more complicated than that...

...except for this...the vast majority of 'christians' have changed the definition of Christianity....but a rose by any other name is still a rose...and whether or not Preachers do what they do for money and fame doesn't change what Jesus did.

Mark as always as this is no surprise to you but this is an excellent topic, I agree whole heartedly with you, yet i also agree with Hyper that the moment critical thinking evolved religion was on the decline, I'm kool with tthe idea of those that have a need to come toghether with a shared beklief system but the bible is of no value it is obvius it has caused more issues and serious ones, we are at a time in humanity that those that can think critically are coming toghether and creating a world that is a joy for all of us < i for one see lots of evidence of this and where once i had no voice that is no longer the case and I intend to use it for a better tommorrow FOR ALL no matter waht you are or aren;'t. I think humanity is growing up.


Mark I had tio chuckle at the suggestion you read the bible , that seems to be the consensus we must not have read the bible , for th record many of us NON beleivers are very versed in the bible,we have read the bible thats the problem .


Yelekiah, Yes to your question??????

Thank you, sheri, yes. You're right about it causing a great deal of issues.
Joc, what are your thoughts on homosexual coupling? Is it sinful in your opinion?

Allow me to disagree. I know we won't agree. But that's not really what my point was. Tele-evangelists watering down the message of the Bible to essentially "feel the love" is the issue.

Im not saying that at all I'm saying that the basis is of christianity and all religion is acceptance of what you think , what i think, what everyone thinks and respect it. I said that everyone is right because I accept. I have opinions of right and wrong I'm just not going to push them upon anyone at least not about religion.

PA its not the televangilists watering down the ideas of the bible the ideas of the bible suck and the good ones they claim they are the brain child of Christianity which is bull Whenever i have needed anything i have only had to look within Forgiveness, love all of it and many others can sayu the same not to mention the bible doesn't focus on the good it claims most are to unworthy to aspire to be worthy Blah Blah, its a mentality that many of us are no longer kool with it has hurt so many and divided the rest we need unity and peace now. Namaste sheri

Homosexuals, heterosexuals, bi-sexuals....all are sinners. The sin is not in what we do but in what we are. We are human....we are sinners. Christianity is not a religion. It is not a philosophy. It is in short...the solution for sin.

So is this "solution for sin" outmoded?
Sorry, if I'm being repetitive, I apologize, lol.

That's what I was trying to get at.

Many of these bible thumpers, such as WBC pick and choose scriptures to justify what they teach. Anyone who takes the time to study the bible, or any holy book for that matter, and not just what some guy or gal in a suit says is in the bible, I think there would be a lot less problems with folks faith.

It was asked of joc, but I'll respond to the question as well.

Gay coupling.

I can, condemn the behavior, but cannot condemn the person. This applies to all sins. And must treat the person as I would any other.

Everybody should read "the god of eth" in this month's Skeptical Inquirer. It pretty much sums up what us non-christians have been saying about one of the main shortcomings of christianity (and judaism and islam) in a rather nice way.

The fact of the matter is that The Churches ...all of them...are guilty of this. All of the preachers eat bacon for breakfast...so it is okay to 'disobey' that law...but the law of the tithe....damned well better not cross that one off the list!



The 'solution for sin' is Forgiveness. Therefore: Is Forgiveness outmoded?

Discuss............

I think not.

perhaps it is thinking in such a way that forgiveness is even to be considered or granted that is outmoded.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Its in the new king james

Joc, Its discrimination no matter how you slice it and thats what the bible stands for , i don't understand why if people want o try anpther way there is so much resistance , Fear is the greatest tool of control man has ever devised and guilt and religion uses them on there followers go ahead beleive what you wish but not everyone is afraid . Namaste Sheri

All right, that's not what I meant. I mean related to etvisitor's post.
Like homosexual coupling. Such as expression of love. They express true love. Does that teaching make it outmoded if it is so common?
I don't mean right or wrong. Just oudated.

TURN THE OTHER CHEEK these are from all walks of religion
The pacifist ethic to bear insults without complaint and to turn the other cheek is related to the ethic to love one's enemy. Here the emphasis is as much on the individual's internal attitude as it is upon the other's welfare. If a person responds to evil in anger or self-defense, he becomes attached to the evil and it can dominate him. The anger and hatred of his attacker is transmuted into his own anger and resentment at being a victim, and he loses his balance and spiritual strength. But by bearing and accepting insults and abuse without diminution of his own goodwill and mental concentration, he can stay above the hatred and preserve a foundation of spiritual independence and self-possession. Ultimately, it is only by preserving his spiritual subjectivity in the midst of the insults that a person can have the strength to love his enemy and win him over. We include several striking examples: from the Lotus Sutra of a monk who is victorious through never disparaging his abusers, and the prophet Isaiah's servant of the Lord.
The concluding passages also deal with the justice of turning the other cheek. They assume an inexorable principle of Divine Justice, pp. 183-91, which will set things right and even vindicate the victim's passivity. Paul argues that worldly retribution would mitigate the punishment of God, hence, by not acting, the believer will heap burning coals upon the head of his adversary. The Sutra of Forty-two Sections likewise speaks to the demerit which will come to the evildoer when his insult is accepted without responding. The victim, on the other hand, gains merit through enduring persecution and building the virtue of patience.


Let there be no injury and no requital.


1.Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 32

One should choose to be among the persecuted, rather than the persecutors.


2.Judaism. Talmud, Baba Kamma 93a

Victory breeds hatred, for the defeated live in pain. Happily live the peaceful, giving up victory and defeat.


3.Buddhism. Dhammapada 201

For behold, they had rather sacrifice their lives than even to take the life of their enemy; and they have buried their weapons of war deep in the earth, because of their love towards their brethren.


4.Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Book of Mormon, Alma 26.32

In wars to gain land, the dead fill the plains; in wars to gain cities, the dead fill the cities. This is known as showing the land the way to devour human flesh. Death is too light a punishment for such men who wage war. Hence those skilled in war should suffer the most severe punishments.


5.Confucianism. Mencius IV.A.14

Those who beat you with fists,
Do not pay them in the same coin,
But go to their house and kiss their feet.


6.Sikhism. Adi Granth, Shalok, Farid, p. 1378

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.


7.Christianity. Matthew 5.38-41

Those who are insulted but do not insult others in revenge, who hear themselves reproached without replying, who perform good work out of the love of the Lord and rejoice in their sufferings... are "as the sun when he goeth forth in his might."


8.Judaism. Talmud, Yoma 23a

Chi K'ang-tzu asked Confucius about government, saying, "Suppose I were to slay those who have not the Way in order to help those who have the Way, what would you think of it?" Confucius replied saying, "You are there to rule, not to slay. If you desire what is good, the people will at once be good."


9.Confucianism. Analects 12.19




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 32: On Muhammad's long-suffering and generosity, see Hadith, p. 569. Baba Kamma 93a: Cf. Pesahim 25b, p. 415. Dhammapada 201: Cf. Yogacara Bhumi Sutra 4, p. 482. Mencius IV.A.14: Cf. Tao Te Ching 31, p. 889.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then they came up and laid hands upon Jesus and seized him. And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest, and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

10.Christianity. Matthew 26.51-52

Brethren, if outsiders should speak against me, or against the Doctrine, or against the Order, you should not on that account either bear malice, or suffer resentment, or feel ill will. If you, on that account, should feel angry and hurt, that would stand in the way of your own self- conquest.


11.Buddhism. Digha Nikaya i.3

Kuan Chung... could seize the fief of P'ien with its three hundred villages from its owner, the head of the Po family; yet Po, though he lived on coarse food to the end of his days, never uttered a single word of resentment. The Master said, "To be poor and not resent it is far harder than to be rich, yet not presumptuous."


12.Confucianism. Analects 14.11

Monks, even as low-down thieves might be carving you limb from limb with a two-handled saw, even then whoever sets his mind at enmity is not a doer of my teaching. Monks, you should train yourselves thus, "Our minds shall not be perverted, we will not utter evil words, we shall abide cherishing thoughts of good, with minds full of goodwill and with no hatred in our heart. Beginning with that thief, we shall abide suffusing the whole world with thoughts of goodwill that are extensive, exalted, and immeasurable, without hostility and malevolence."

If you, monks, were to attend repeatedly to this exhortation on the parable of the saw, would you see any form of ridicule, subtle or gross, that you could not endure?


so its not just christanity that has this teachings but all religions this goes the same for any topic

Exactly!!!!! Forgiveness is a tool for those humans than think they are less then ,

Jesus rocks! It is his fan club thats got issues.

lol
My, my moe.

Yelekiah, Yes I will step up here and say yes the idea of discriminating and mandating the love between two consenting adults because they are of the same sex is OUTDATED , and there is no excuse for thsi mentality any longer it has hurt others HURT them and its time we ended this, its time we grew up. , Namaste Sheri



OOps double pst

I don't know what church you have been attending, but the one I am a member of, does not pick and choose verses. And I find it interesting, now that I have admitted I go to church and consider myself a faithful, if imperfect, christian. THat even among christians there is a wide variety of opinions and differences, How is this possible when there is only one bible?

For those of you who are non-christians, I have no ill feelings for your beliefs and ideas. In fact I am very interested in why you believe or don't believe as you do.

THe one thing I don't do is try to convert anyone to anything.

Peace or piece.

Thank you, sheri. Etvisitor always has interesting posts. And that one about Original Sin. Are new-born babies sinful? It puts a new spin on things if you think of it that way.

Well I have to admit that is the first time I ever heard anyone 'dis' forgiveness. Do you know what forgiveness even is? Let's see....you killed my brother so I am going to kill your entire family....you killed my entire family so I am going to kill your entire family and your friends family as well...you killed my family, and my friends family so I am going to blow up a bus full of innocent children...etc, etc, etc,

Sheri..in the real world people hurt other people...they hurt their feelings,,,they hurt each other physically...forgiveness is a 'tool' to overcome the hurting. But then what do I know...I am not 'enlightened'. But I am forgiven.

...and yes Moe the Fan Club....one Sunday they were Cheering him on...the next Sunday they were crucifying him....and now they crucify him EVERY Sunday and get paid for the task...

newborn babies are born without sin its starting with a clean slate

Tis a simple matter of life experience. People tend to translate things in terms of what they have been through.

God gave us free will right?

However, in etvisitor's post, it goes on about Original Sin. Everyone can be viewed
as sinful in a sense. I don't agree with it by any means. I was just wondering on people's thoughts on Original Sin.

THat's my point. It's not the bibles fault, it's the fan clubs.

damn baptists

Joc forgiveness is never something you do for another you may think you are doing some great act but in the end it is a gift you give yourself , if you dear boy understood forgiveness you would of not written what you have written people hurt themselves when you belive you are seperate from all others and your own divine nature yes you will beleive others hurt you and you hurt others, that is a stage of understanding Yes I know of forgiveness more than you could imagine.Namaste sheri

I am not your Dear Boy...nor am I 'enlightened' as you seem to think you and Mark are. Being the 'smartest person in the room at any given time' is not being enlightened Sheri.

the root of all And I mean all religions is not forgiveness it is acceptance. If you accept others and all their practices only then can you forgive plus it is not our jobs to forgive, its Gods or what ever higher power you belive in.