Care to ellaborate ?

Your unbelieveable. Yesterday, you trashed everyone that disagreed with you. Now, its a conspiracy against you posting. Come on.

I was going to post but i'll wait untill this is over and we are back on topic..

PS: Leo we all have to follow the rules or we get banned!.. It really does not read as if Saruman is picking you... He is only trying to get you too see how we post and act on this form... Thats all...!

Yeah ... i'd like to stay on topic too , it was another thing i was warned about ..... it would seem Eric has "carte blanche"

Well , i'm sure Saruman has better things to do , i'm not saying he's picking on me .....

It does appear that he let these two guy's off regarding the same behaviour , so it follows that resentment and/or confusion follows ....it's all about being fair!!

Please post , bring us back on-topic.

Perhaps I should reword my original post,

Could everyone please include everything you want to say in one post, making several consecutive posts is generally regarded as spamming.

And now back on topic.

Leo for your own sake please listen to admin. Sam has colded others as well I know I have been on recieving end lol. thsi isnt about sides or persons its about rules

Ok..the topic is 9/11 so lets talk about it.. I feel it was a act of cowards trying to fight a war only they want.. If you do not believe as i do you must die.. What losser's.. I can't speak for other's but i know my God was not smiling that day.. And i can not understand how they think their God was... If it please's a God to kill so many people he too must be a losser.. No real God want's people to die like that... It blow's my mind how insane these people are....

impossible to disagree with this ...... as to who did 9-11 , i think there is enough evidence to show there was some element of treason in the commision of 9-11.

To back that up i refer to my earlier posts , esp where i pointed out the co-operation and complicity of the US admin in getting Osama to Bosnia and chechyna.

It seems pretty clear that the police , firemen , press and workers from the WTC cannot all be involved in the same conspiracy.

What really worries me is the "cover up" by "not investigating as well and completely" as you and i are doing here.

Doesn't that strike you as "odd"??

The whole thing is odd to me.. How do you get so many people to tell the same lie who have never meet? *Answer*.. You can't.. that is way i find it insane for people to think anyone else beside's Bin Laden and his insane follower's did this..

Nothing can be proven here , so we have to agree to disagree on that one


here's a speculator for you , if you like ...

What if , as in Afghanistan , Bosnia and Chechnya , OBL was a "soldier" for the US Admin ???

If you think about that , it becomes possible for the two to be treated the same .... also , i feel the "non-investigation" ( or , if you like , "incomplete" and "incompetent" investigation) also lends credibility to the "treason" aspect ...


As with all crime , the first thing to consider is cui bono , i've mentioned this before !!

All these people suggest there were bombs planted in the WTC's(pl)


Do you (all) still think that it was the planes that caused the collapse of the towers ???

I agree no amount of theory can disprove this fact! In order for this suppos eplot to have occurred would require hundreds if not thousands all cover each other and NONE have an attack of guilt and spill the beans. Did OBL work for or with US at one time I am sure he did during Russian campaign much like Castro was once an ally of ours. thsi shows the deciet on OBL. Think for a moment which is easier fly sevral planes into buildings or simply blow them up! If this was indeed done by Bush and US Government you simply blow up buildings fewer people would be needed meaning fewer chances of leaks. It also a norm for OBL and Muslim terrorist to use bombs so comspracy theory doesnt make sense. No sorry no amount of Michael Moore distortion can convince me anyone other than OBL and hios group did this

Who would wish this on our people
and proclaim that his will be done
Scriptures they heed have mislead them
All praise their sacrificed sons

Dream Theater - Sacrificed Sons

Very, very beautiful song.

"All these people suggest there were bombs planted in the WTC's"

No, Leo, you are wrong. Almost all of them agree it was the planes that brought the towers down. Including the STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS.

EDIT: YOUR government admits it was the act of terrorists. How does that strike your fancy? Is your government in on it too?

you're entitled to an opinion ....but OBL was supported by succesive US admins , afghanistan , bosnia and chechnya , they were all paid for by the USA ....some of it funneled through the "saudi-charities" ...but still , the americans paid for him , he was their boy !!!

I'm not wrong ...i've posted concrete proof from many eyewitnesses with expertise in the area ....they all said there were "explosions" .... please feel free to actually view/listen to the links i provided.

It's all about finding the truth , not scoring political points.

Cui bono

but OBL was supported by succesive US admins , afghanistan , bosnia and chechnya , they were all paid for by the USA

did you not read my post.

A month are so ago, someone posted a link to website that broke down the 9/11 conspiracy theory piece by piece and discredited it. If anyone remembers it, please post the link. It was done by engineers, etc. Of course the believers will say it is propaganda. When it says what they want it is the gospel truth, if not it is propaganda.

"I'm not wrong ...i've posted concrete proof from many eyewitnesses with expertise in the area ....they all said there were "explosions" .... please feel free to actually view/listen to the links i provided."

No, you are wrong when you say that ALL of them say there were explosions. "All these people" Not only that, I certainly believe there were explosions, it was the air compression that resulted from the towers collapsing. The STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS agree what brought the towers down leo. You do not know more than they do about these things, no matter how much you wish you do.

I'm still waiting for your thoughts on YOUR government acknowledging 9/11 was the act of terrorists. Please, feel free to make up some half baked excuse for this. =P

Explosions ok why look at this one side from a consiracy viewpoint. here is a list of possible causes for or explanations for said "explosions other than bombs

Any sound "thought to be explosion

Fuel from plane

Unknown flameables inside building

known flameables inside building

Gas explosions

electrical explosions

compressed air and or gases

to name a few

sine this is a 9/11 thread it should include the multitude of eye witness accounts of demolitions,bombs,secondary devices,pops,booms and many other descriptiond too numerous to list--here are the best but it is important to note there are many more--never in any previous UM thread have these testimonies been commented on or any type of explanation given as to how these may have been taken out of context or blown out of proporton--please offer some sort of comment as these testimonies are a major contributing factor for many of us that dont accept the official version--these are not vague and cannot be attributed to ridiculous assumptions about gas or flammables--
*********************************************************************
“Amazing, incredible pick your word. For the third time today, it’s reminiscent of those pictures we’ve all seen too much on television before, where a building was deliberately destroyed by well placed dynamite to knock it down.”

CBS News anchor Dan Rather commenting on the collapse of Building 7 - September 11, 2001 at approx 5:30pm EST.

**********************************************************************
9/11 NBC News broadcast
"Shortly after 9 o'clock ... [Albert Turi the Chief of Safety for the New York Fire Department] received word of the possibility of a secondary device, that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said there was another explosion which took place, and then an hour after the first hit - the first crash that took place - he said there was another explosion that took place in one of the towers here, so obviously according to his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building.

One of the secondary devices he thinks that took place after the initial impact he thinks may have been on the plane that crashed into one of the towers. The second device - he thinks, he speculates - was probably planted in the building. ... But the bottom line is that he, Albert Turi, said that he probably lost a great many men in those secondary explosions, and he said that there were literally hundreds, if not thousands, of people in those towers when the explosions took place."
***********************************************************************

"As we were getting our gear on and making our way to the stairway, there was a heavy duty explosion."
***********************************************************************

"We were trying to get some of the people out, but then there was secondary explosions and then subsequent collapses."
***********************************************************************

"...and then all of a sudden it started like... it sounded like gunfire... you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and then all of a sudden three big explosions."
***********************************************************************

"I was about five blocks away when I heard explosions... three thuds and turned around to see the building that we just got out of... tip over and fall in on itself."
***********************************************************************

"At 10:30 I tried to leave the building, but as I got outside I heard a second explosion ... And then a fire marshal came in and said we had to leave, because if there was a third explosion this building might not last."
***********************************************************************
again we are not alone in this contention--the testimonies above as well as the publications below are on our side--
*******************
"Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure."

I'm not the one saying it , the experts i have quoted are just as valid as "yours" are ........... the big difference is that "your" guy's have refused all challenges to their data while "mine" invite a "real" debate.

Please post the reports from "your" guys ..... i'd love to look them over

I see this as the problem. Anytime someone credible eye witness comes out against the official story they are labeled a conspiracy kook.

It's not that no whistle blowers have come out to try to tell what really happened on 9/11, it's that the government has a gag order over them, and the media fails to report it to the public, so the public has no idea what is being covered up from their eyes.

My country is the most corrupt on the face of the earth. It pisses me off that I and only a very few others can see this. The rest including most everyone I know personally thinks this country is morally superior in every way. It's called ethnocentrism.

We don't even have investigative reporters anymore. It's taboo to reveal corruption in our own government. The corruption that is revealed is spun hard core, and usually it's to distract the public away from the real corruption.

Not a single skeptic of the official story has even attempted to try to explain all the witness to the explosion. I think in their minds they know it came down naturally from the heat of the fires, and so in order to make sense of the explosions they attribute it various things like who knows what.

Cui Bono? Who has profited from the war on terrorism. With out wars halliburton would not be needed. And what about the Carlyle group, which was partly run by the Bushes, and the Bin laden family.

Has anyone who believes the official story done research into the PNAC Project for the new American century. The neocons were the ones who benefited the most from 9/11, and no one else.

A great documentry I would recomemend for everyone to watch is Hijacking Catastrophe: 9/11, Fear & the Selling of American Empire:



This country is going down the tubes, and I can't do anything to stop it. It is very sad.

and I can't do anything to stop it

Now thats funny!

I love this country Scooby, and if that makes you angry so be it.

Oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave? For the land of the freeeeeeeee and the hooooooome ooooof theeeeeee braaaaaaaaaaaaave!

God bless America! Who's with me?

I'm with you. Our country and government has its flaws, but they didn't commit wholesale murder by blowing up the towers.

I want God to bless America to. Don't get me wrong. I think God has taken away his blessing though, and things will continue to get worse before they get better if they ever return to normal.

I think you focus on the good things this country has to offer, while I focus on the bad things this country does. That's the difference and there is nothing wrong with that. I wish I was like you. Life for me is not much fun at all. It's the whole glass is half empty, glass is half full. You have a positive attitude, while I have a negative attitude.

I'm thinking of taking a break from my research into these subjects, because it's making me depressed. Plus I'm close to turning over to the dark side, which I can't let myself do. Part of me wants to be taken out in the next terrorist attack so I don't have to deal with this crap any longer.

I understand what your saying. If you believe in this stuff, it has to take a toll on you. I know it would depress me. I never agree with you , but I hope you feel better.

I'm thinking of taking a break from my research into these subjects, because it's making me depressed.

Your looking at selective websites. There are many sites that support both sides your choosing the depressing Michael Moore sites (insert humor)

Well yes and no. Just to set things straight, I don't like Michael Moore. While I do read the mainstream news, and even watch Fox news because I've always been a Republican at heart, I also read the independent media, and overseas media. I actually voted for Bush In 2000. I see the inconsistencies, and sometimes lies in the mainstream media. It's mostly what is not covered in the mainstream media which the independent media covers. I've noticed the mainstream media is for perception management. Getting the people to think along the lines of certain paradigm. Keep the public happy at what they do, and try not to get them to upset or alarmed.

A major example is that rarely do you have mainstream media telling you the stock market is going to crash or go down. It's always upbeat, and telling you to invest. Why? Because our country depends on the people spending money and lots of it. It's the same reason you don't get to learn about aliens, is because it would alarm the public, and cause a financial disaster.

I've deleted several posts that were off topic and unsuitable for the forum.

Back on topic, please.

Scooby,
and me,
and people like us,

Do not hate our country.

We hate what our country has become.

What happened to inocent until proven guilty?

terrorism is what happened.

If you can be labled a terrorist you are guilty until proven inocent.

With the new laws that are being passed americans can be labled as terrorists and they too can be held and are guilty until proven inocent. Look at what they call a terrorist now and that will be a shock for you. As you should see the bill of rights is looking pretty beat-up.

I hate how things are now, but I am hopeful.

You have to live in the moment or you will never live at all.

So cheer up scoob.

oh and send me those dvds pretty please

Hi scoob.

I understand your frustration and feelings of helplessness - but know this for sure - the truth will come out, and every day we are getting closer to that. The people demanding the truth about 9/11 are not going to go away - our ranks are growing, and people who have witnessed the facts being covered up are speaking out more all the time.

We don't need to just focus on the negative - the scum that are trying to bring down the country and the world are a very small minority of the people. They put up a veneer of infallibility and do their best to make all opposition seem futile and hopeless. But, they are the few, we are the many. And they are only human like all of us, with the same faults and weaknesses. In fact, they are cowards, like the school bully who runs and hides when he meets up with those who don't back down from him.

Even the people here who don't believe the Gov't has some traitorous, murderous elements within it, would be the first to stand beside you to defend the country if (I believe when) they come to know who the real monsters are, within and outsdide the US.


Take care, friend. And keep up the fight - myself and others here are on your side.

The article you refer to may be the March 2005 cover story of Popular Mechanics magazine.
9/11: Debunking The Myths - popularmechanics

Here are a couple of direct answers to that article:

911review

911research.wtc7


If this is not the article you referred to, perhaps you can provide some more information to narrow the search down a bit.

To those who wonder why if 9/11 was an inside job, how could they keep everyone quiet and not have anyone come forward and spill the beans about the whole thing, it's simple the ones in control of the country are also the ones responsible for 9/11. All the firefighters and police who have inside knowledge are under gag order and not allowed to talk. Same with the family members to a certain extent. They all know the government is lying but why risk losing your job, or jail time in going public. Even if they did go to the news, it wouldn't get past the editor, at least in the corporate news. If the corporate news is the only source you find credible, you are being controlled into a certain way of thinking, and the facts say otherwise.

Some people have come forward, but only the independent media will carry the story.

Is it in the national interest of our government to let the people know the truth about 9/11? Of course not, from that perspective, it's for your own good.

Of course your drug induced fog wont let you see how silly that is it would require hundreds if not thusands to remain silent not spill beans of make mistake and give info away lol

hey Panther , happy birthday for last week .....

here's a link to a physics forum .......

NB ...the poster "a_ht" identifies himself as one of the investigators from "the official story" ...... read how he is led to expose that the investigation did not want the truth ...and how they "directed" the outcome !!

Understand that this is not the first time that an investigation has been directed to produce "a lie" . I refer to the USS Liberty enquiry .... and also the "warren commision" which investigated the JFK assassination.


read it ...then weep for the foolish sheeple who "fell" for it yet again .... you have been maipulated my friend ....Ha Ha Ha Ha Happy birthday to you !!!


Physics Forum

Why all the cover up , why not answer all the questions , surely these folk have nothing to hide ??

Surely these folk wouldn't dishonour the dead by failing in their "freely chosen" obligations would they ??



Source



Former NY Aux. Fire and Policeman Uncovers Transit Authority Tapes Showing 'Heavy Smoke Condition' Below WTC On 9/11

More evidence now surfaces indicating explosions rocked the WTC and a pre-planned controlled demolition.
9 Oct 2005

By Greg Szymanski

More 9/11 evidence has surfaced indicating explosions rocked the North Tower prior to the jetliner striking the top floors, again showing the official government story is nothing more than a pack of lies.

Transit Authority conversations between motormen and dispatchers reveal a “heavy smoke situation” on transit line’s 1 and 9 adjacent to and in the sublevel basement area near the North Tower just minutes before the jetliner strike.

The obscure tapes, unknown until recently discovered in official transit authority transcripts and released in the Transit Authority News, adds further credibility to the numerous eye-witness claiming to have heard explosions rock the North Tower prior to the jetliner strike.

The conversations between subway worker’s came to light after avid 9/11 researcher and former auxiliary fireman perused through transit authority records after listening to the same conversations he taped himself on the morning of 9/11.

“I m an emergency communications buff and have kept many tapes of what what was going on the morning of 9/11,” said Isaac this week in a conversation from his home in Brooklyn. “I have on tape the motormen talking to the dispatchers about a heavy smoke condition between building 5 and 6 right next to the North Tower.

“This occurred a minute before the plane hit the tower on the 1 and 9 lines that were running below the mezzanine levels between sub level one and two.”

Isaac, who has compiled an enormous amount of research contradicting the official story, said his tapes were verified by the official transit authority transcripts he recently uncovered.

“This adds more credibility to William Rodriguez’s statements that her heard explosions in the basement,” said Isaac about the WTC head maintenance man who has tried for years to get people to listen to his eye-witness accounts, corroborated by at least 20 other people in the North Tower who also heard the same massive explosions.

Rodriguez, the last man out of the WTC and declared a national hero for saving hundreds of lives, has had his damaging testimony censored by both the cowardly American press as well as the 9/11 Commission.

Besides Rodriguez, the commission and the press have never reported on at least 20 other eye-witnesses who verify the head maintenance man’s statements. And now comes the “heavy smoke’ reports on the transit authority tapes, also ignored by the lapdogs in media and the 9/11 Commission.

Further, the testimony of a man by the name of Felipe David, severely burned in the basement from the underground explosions, has also been suppressed by all parties, including the 9/11 Commission and the unscrupulous media.

“It’s a massive cover-up. We all know it,” added Isaac.

To illustrate the massive cover-up and to the extent in which former 9/11 commissioners are still lying to the public, recently on September 10, commissioner and former congressman Tim Roemer refused to confront Rodriguez or answer his questions after a victim’s and family meeting held at the Marriot Hotel in New York.

Roemer, who spoke to family members, told a heart breaking story how just after 9/11, a women who lost her husband, put his wedding ring on his desk, demanding the truth be uncovered since the only thing the widow had left of her husband’s after the tragedy was his finger in the ring.

Roemer, like a typical lying politician, told the families after that incident he vowed to get the truth behind who caused 9/11.

However, as quick as the tear jerking wedding story ended, Roemer forgot about his vow to get at the truth as he ran from the Marriot like a scared rabbit when confronted by Rodriguez and asked why his statements have been kept out of the final 9/11 report and from the most of the American people.

“You see, they still will not deal with the truth, but for the memory of all those who died, I will never stop telling it,” said Rodriguez after he tried to confront Roemer.

Besides the explosions rocking the WTC basement, Isaac said he has uncovered another little known fact, which also may show the WTC was a pre-planned, staged demolition.

Isaac, a man with a knack of digging a little deeper than most about 9/11, said two large 400 foot tall empty WW II fuel reserve tanks, standing side by side, were brought down in a controlled demolition in East Williamsburg (Brooklyn) on July 15, 2001, at 7:02am.

“I found out the same company, CDI, who had the clean-up contract at Oklahoma City and with the WTC, brought down the water tanks for no apparent reason and despite complaints from the neighborhood who tried in vain to stop the demolition,” said Isaac, adding the site still remains vacant and a reason for the demolition was never given by local or company officials.

“I think it might have been a dry run for 9/11. Perhaps they were trying to see the tilt and how the top 400 feet of the towers would fall in place. There has been no plans to put anything on the property or any valid explanation why they were taken down.

“But I do know the company who owned the tanks, Keyspan Maspeth, acquired a minor league baseball team called the Brooklyn Cyclones right around the same time. There may or may not be a connection, but it is suspicious and should be investigated further.”

Isaac’s investigations into terrorism have long been a thorn in the side of New York officials, including former Mayor Rudi Giuliani. The former auxiliary fireman and police man said he sent a personal correspondence a year prior to 9/11, urging the city to beeter prepare for terrorist activity as he felt the city’s resources remained vunerable

Isaac also was relieved of his duties, for conduct unbecoming an auxiliary police officer, after being alerted by a bus passenger on July 27, 2000, and responding to a bomb threat on a New York City bus.

After given clearance by NYPD, Isaac and his partner blocked heavy city traffic by 53rd Street and Madison Ave. and then a man with a brief case was apprehended. He claims, however, the only result of the apprehension was his suspension as he never found out what happened to the suspect on the bus or the contents of the brief case.

“It was very strange why I was suspended and I never found out what was in the briefcase,” said Isaac.

It seems Isaac almost always is in the middle of controversy as on the recent fourt anniversary of 9/11, he was involved in a confrontation with 9/11 protestors who set up their protest on the sidewalk in front of Ground Zero in the midst of the reading of the names of those who perished.

Isaac, who believes with his heart in the 9/11 truth movement, tried to convince protestors it was neither the time or place to create a controversy, especially on a morning which is set aside solely to remember those who dies without having politics getting in the way.

“If it was any other day, I would be right out there protesting with them. I would even do it front of the fire station. But on the morning of 9/11, when the families are mourning their loved ones, it just wasn’t the right time,” said Isaac, adding he was also tring to protect the protestors fro violence since many in the crowd seemed to be almost provoked into raising fists.

“This type of protest has a way of discrediting the 9/11 truth movement and maybe that was their intentions. I just don’t know. But I do know that the same people who were protesting, misquoted and totally printed things I didn’t say on their web site.

“If you read the Village Voice who covered what happened the next day, it was totally different then what appeared on the Wing TV web site. What they did wasn’t right on the 4th anniversary of 9/11 and what they wrote about me isn’t what I said.”

source

Here's another little snippet you might like to explain.

NB launching an ad hominem is not an explanation

You will also note the "lack" of Aircraft wings ....they must have gone through the wall without leaving a hole huh???

Selective photo selection I have seen photos that show plane parts which show plane hit Pentagon

I've dealt with "hundreds and thousands" obfuscations before ...you didn't rebutt it then and you cant now .... your "reasoning" ability seems to be an American character trait.


Perhaps the drug induced fog is closer to home than you thought !!!




why Americans were able to be sold a pack a lies - they're dumb dumb dumb

you have !!!

you're the only one ....post them ...i dare you !!!

That's it ... i show evidence plain and simple that the inquiry was rigged ...that the facts don't match the story and that's the best answer you got ??

I thought you wanted to honour the dead with the truth ??

How silly of me !!

Looks like your ego cannot handle being trithful , even to yourself .

your children must be so proud of you !!

America (the government) has killed a 100,000+ people to protect this ego .....when will it stop ???

This subject has been around for a while now, and yet I think it comes down to your own beliefs as does everything.

Some want to believe what the government says because that seems normal, and anything else would be wrong. These people simply do not want to believe their own government could attack them. Instead of an outside thread (terrorists) to fear, they would have to fear a threat from inside, from the very people they rely on to protect them. In order to believe the official government conspiracy you have to ignore certain facts. Simply dismiss them, because if you don't it could make you uncomfortable. The vast majority I think are in this position, mainly because most have never heard of any of the evidence to suggest 9/11 didn't happen exactly as the government says it did.

Others look at the inconsistencies and see the lies and form a different conclusion. Is there still an investigation going on, or was the 9/11 COMMISSITION all there was. If so, then information is still being kept from the public. Why not release it? I guess it could bring up old memories that could still cause pain, but so what you babies, grow up. For example the general population knows we never found the flight data recorders from the planes that hit the towers so we can never fully find out what happened. But what they know is a lie, because the boxes were both found. Also the public knows the identity of the 19 hijackers, yet 6 are still alive. What the public knows to be the truth, is so far from it, but they don't know any difference.

For those of you who have been around for a while (example Panther, and others you know who you are), but still accept the official story, I guess it comes down to a personal decision. Do you want to believe our government could have been partly responsible for 9/11 or does it make you more comfortable to just assume it was Bin Laden and a bunch of Arabs.

I admit, when 9/11 first happened I thought along with the media it was the damn Arabs, and immediately I knew we were headed for Iraq. If that conspiracy is the right one, then everything can be justified as survival of the fittest. Our countries concerns overrides the Muslim countries, because we are bigger, stronger, and have more responsiblity to the world, so not only is it in our best interests, it is int he worlds best interest that we kill the threat to us. The way to do that is to take away all the freedoms we once had that made us susceptible to a terrorist attack anywhere at any time. If you truly want safety from random terrorists, and you believe that, then why not just put the verichip in your hand, why not let the government tap your phone and read your emails. It could save you from dying in a terrorist attack.

The new world order makes perfect sense, if you don't have the correct background. Most people don't know what any of this is really about, and that's why it will succeed. Maybe it is for our own good. Maybe if we didn't have any freedoms, it would force us to be better citizens. If cameras were on every street corner and it had face recognition software as well as readers for the RFIDs in our hands people would not commit a crime because they know they couldn't get away with it. 9/11 probably was for our own good, in fact we could use a couple of more terrorist attacks to get our country in line.

If you would rather be a slave, because it's for your own good, go back to sleep, and you will wake up in a police state, a dream come true. You have nothing to hide do you?

THIS shows USA isnt al lgrreat and powerfull, they couldnt detect the plane, cant help on hurricane Katrina ( as expected) so yeah...maybe its usa's uncarefullness

In our eagerness to wake people up, and the inherent frustration that comes with fighting against those who actively defend the official lie, it's important to retain objectivity, to investigate everything to its furthest possible extent before forming a hypothesis, and to not accept every single theory that comes out as gospel simply because it appears to be part of the greater cause.

I'm not sure if someone mentioned it in this thread earlier (I've been on a few forums discussing this issue today) but this whole 9-11 affair is an exercise in information warfare. There is almost more disinformation out there than there is honest information. Asserting theories to be fact is damaging to the cause. The 9-11 truth movement is only just starting to recover from the whole "pods on the planes" episode, which the disinfo agents and/or conspiracy hobbyists tried to stretch further into the "missiles hitting WTC6" theory, and then even on to "holographic planes", along with "the Jews did it"!

Personally, after investigating for a long time and speaking to an actual witness, I think the "no 757 at the Pentagon" fits into this category. There is sufficient evidence, even without witness testimony, to point to the probability that yes, it WAS a 757 and it DID disintegrate. Studies of historical airplane crashes will show this to be quite possible. It being a 757 that hit the Pentagon does NOT however preclude there being actual conspiracy. Examining the alleged pilot Hani Hanjouri's(sp?) flying record, and then comparing that to testimony of ATC's and expert aviators observations regarding the manoeveurs performed by the Boeing, the possibility that the planes were remote controlled seems much more likely. Yet, indeed, investigating this aspect will also produce some medium-sized yet not insurmountable logic hurdles in regards to the logistics of retro-fitting such technology. And again, if one were to rule out remote control, this STILL does not preclude conspiracy, since the connections to OBL and the hijackers at a back-door government/military level and the deliberate obstructions of investigation by the Bush administration and upper echelons of the FBI, all point very strongly to complicity.

So what is my point exactly? Simply this: That those of us who know in our hearts and minds that this crime was perpetrated by elements within the US government and military should not dig our own info-war graves by latching on to and never letting go of every single theory that comes along. Finding the truth is a process of elimination, not one of stubborn resistance to opposing views. Every piece of information should be examined on its merits, and then either discarded, filed for further investigation, or accepted and added to the larger puzzle. You start to think maybe a 757 really did hit the Pentagon? This doesn't mean the debunkers have "won", nor that you have been forced back. On the contrary it means you have advanced the cause by bringing yourself one step closer to the absolute truth, something which can never truly be achieved anyway.

Here's a personal list of how I currently categorize some of the main 9-11 theories. My list is always flexible:

Irrefutable:
WTC7 did not collapse from fire.
OBL was a CIA asset.

Likely:
The WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition.
The hijackers were CIA assets or patsies.
Flight 93 was shot down.

Possible:
Some of the "hijackers" are still alive.
The planes were commandeered by remote control technology.
A 737 drone hit the Pentagon.
Unconventional military technology was used in the demolition of the WTC towers.

Bunkum:
A missile hit the Pentagon
A Global Hawk hit the Pentagon
Holographic planes, missiles, pods, etc

There's many more, but I think I got all the main ones.

Stay vigilant, stay objective, fight the good fight. We will win in the end, even if Jesus Christ himself has to come back and lead the troops.

Your such a hateful and angry little man. Its no wonder no one takes you seriously. Good for you.

Some posts are just too childish or dumb to reply to Eric leave it be.

Lets keep this discussion civil please everyone.

So a low res pic from a few frames a second camera is supposed to prove the Pentagon explosion wasn't jet fuel? More likely the camera became oversaturated from the brightness of the explosion and showed white as a result. On the one hand you have the WTC explosion recorded with high-def news cams and on the other you have the Pentagon recorded on a security cam. Huge differences in resolution, brightness ranges, color ranges, etc.

As for evidence that a plane did in fact hit the pentagon
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pe...e_evidence.html