I believe there should be a thread on 9/11 that should be civilized in its dealings. I'll be the first to admit I have not always been civil in my posts. Let this thread be proof that the conspiracy forum has not completely lost its ability on having civil debates.

My OPINION on 9/11:

I believe that the American public has not been told the entire truth. At the same time I don't believe that our own government did it. This would be the largest cover-up in the history of mankind, without a SINGLE person in on the "plot" coming forward and admitting to something as horrendous as taking 3000 innocent lives. And a conspiracy of this scale would take thousands of people to be in on it to make it possible I know that I personally could not live with that for the rest of my life, not matter how much was at risk if I didn't keep the secret. The structural engineers agree, the towers came down without any self detonation or "pulling"

Again that is just my personal opinion on the matter, and I think this thread should be put towards getting to the bottom of this thing, or as least as close as we can, with all personal differences put aside. Please don't post any links to someones sight with their OPINIONS on it, because that is not proof. However I'd appreciate it to hear your own.

Lets try to keep this one open guys

I'm up for keeping it civil, and allowing both sides to explain their positions. It is not just enough to present evidence. And on a forum such as this, it is important to explain why you believe as you do. Quoting sources is great, but here at UM it is also a great idea to explain why you believe or dis-believe a particular statement.

I like many others do not believe the official line from the commission. I've already stated my reasons for not agreeing with the report.

I will respond to anyone who post civil comments or questions. I don't want this thread shut down either.

Best SC

I know how you feel about not wanting to believe that our own government was behind 9-11 but let's be real here...let's admit that the word "government" is a loosely defined term when we apply it to this topic of a 9-11 conspiracy...how so?

Our Nations Laws and Ideals are quite different from reality...we have laws against stealing but that didn't stop Prudential Securities from ripping off my parent for 250,000 dollars did it? No. States attorney said until congress fixes a loophole concerning litigation then Prudential could not be sued...in other words...SOL buddy...wheres the FBI? Cant touch it because by law it has to be above 250,000 and our amount was actually around 234,000.

It is a loophole put there to deliberately exploit people and congress, Wall ST., and prosecuting attorneys know it...but they do it deliberately. But did our government do it? Like the 9-11 issue...when private corporations and key people with influence in the government, no matter what thier post is, they can act in unison to undermine the law or to create events designed to benefit thier outlook.

In a sense the government didn't do it...there are many in our government who would have prevented it...but there are many who are on the corporate payroll if you know what I mean...and they are more like sabateors...not looking out for middle class America but for another agenda more corrupt.

BTW, there were recently 2 air traffic controllers from Logan Airport that havce come forward about what they saw happen on 9-11 and said that the 2 planes that were supposed to have hit the twin towers that morning actually dissappeared over the Atlantic Ocean thus not matching the official storyline...also they were told by Feds early on not to talk. This another story that needs to be inspected to provide more insight about those two planes and the events of that morning.

not really--when you consider the fact that democracy has been faked and that every war since the 1800's has beed an exercise by the ruling elite in the principal of divide and conquer you realize that the largest cover-up is really the conspiracy of war itself--the banking institutions like the WBO and corporations like lockheed martin and ibm walk around all day long without even thinking about telling you that the stock market is rigged,opec in a monopoly and that war is just a tool for population control--

I have to agree with sunofone on most of his post. The country for years has been controlled by the minority of the wealthiest enslaving the poor.

We live in an illusion of freedom, that can be snatched away, very quickly by any rouge element in any law enforcement agency.

To understand the basis of 9/11, list the ones who would or did profit from the attack.

Forget about How a building fell, and ask why a building fell. You'll find the answers to WTC Bldg 7 in your research.

Look at the idea of a boogey man that we cannot catch, even with a $50 million reward, And ask why.

Look at the reasons for war, was it a reasonable mistake, or a distraction for another plot within our own borders.

For some interesting reading, I suggest this web site. FAS.org
The documents and articles contained here give a good insight on how this government is run

Dum de dum dum..dum de dum dum deeeeeeeeeeeeee


I don't think a 9/11 thread can remain civil...

....I'm putting 20 bucks on it....any takers?

joc, posts like that really aren't necessary.
As long as this topic can remain civil and intelligent, there is no reason to close it. However, the reasons for closure of the previous 9/11 topics are due to the habit of them turning into flame wars.
This topic will remain open as long as it stays within the forum rules.

You're right...not necessary...

It is just that the whole 9/11 conversations have become so polarized. It is almost like Creation vs Evolution....

On the one hand you have a majority opinion that the facts are as portrayed by the US Gov and the main stream Media...
..On the other hand you have a 'different mentality' that thinks it is a conspiracy.

It is the realists vs the kooks and the twain just never meets....

...but then this post probably wasn't necessary either...sorry...

oooooohhhhhhhh I like the new color choices....go new board!

I just found out I'm a real kook. Since I don't believe either side.

Research, research, research.

Suggested links to see some of the silly stuff our leaders said. Go to The white mouse.

Now this will take some time, but go back and reference early speeches.

I ain't doing any ones homework for them.

Also check out a few basic bills before congress. And look at a few that have passed both houses.

Read the fine print.

You'll see how we are really governed.

Ah.........you are completely biased SC! You campaigned for Kerry....

Joc you know better than to go spreading lies like that.

I campaigned for Pat Paulson. And he would have won if it wasn't for the slow boat guys slandering his name.

"not really--when you consider the fact that democracy has been faked and that every war since the 1800's has beed an exercise by the ruling elite in the principal of divide and conquer you realize that the largest cover-up is really the conspiracy of war itself--the banking institutions like the WBO and corporations like lockheed martin and ibm walk around all day long without even thinking about telling you that the stock market is rigged,opec in a monopoly and that war is just a tool for population control--"

What did this statement add to the conversation??

I think MO that it is the prelude to the argument that everything from 1800 on, has been a on-going conspiracy that continues to date. While the argument has some validity, it does not take into account certain events such as the fall of the U.S.S.R. Unless they say the unseen conspirators were responsible for this as well. The possibility that one group can control the world and all events that happen is impossible. there are too many variables such as North Korea, Certain countries in Africa and south America. THis is where we get the Idea of puppet governments that the U.S. has supposedly installed. (Most have turned against us anyway.) This all of course leads up to the events of 9/11 when the turn over of full power is supposedly to begin.

A 9-11 hoax beliver is almost as rare as a moonhoax beliver these days,sure they cry and scream on a kook site like this,but I have never met one in RL and probably never will.

DB I'm not sure I am understanding what you mean. Please forgive me as I have been up since late last night. But are you saying that you have never met a person that believes the Government story, or are you saying that you have never met a person who believes that the whole thing was staged?

Im saying that the terrorists killed alot of people that morning on 9/11-01.
And here is something for those of you who are still wondering about the Pentagon.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pe...e_evidence.html

Okay know I got ya.

I was just on ATS reading some of the stuff there.

Thanks for clearing that up.

"A 9-11 hoax beliver is almost as rare as a moonhoax beliver these days,sure they cry and scream on a kook site like this,but I have never met one in RL and probably never will."

I sure as hell have met some. They are everywhere down here, and I live in UTAH!!!

I have to agree, We have our fair share here on the west coast as well.


In fact in a little comic book store downtown we have a guy who has a whole section on the 'Truth" of 9/11. Try talking to him about it with a negative (In his mind) aspect about the theories and he gets ballistic and accuses people of being agents for the NWO and a bunch of other groups. (Like a guy in a wc really works for the NWO)

To me if you really, truly believe this conspiracy why would you stay in the US. It is not going to change. No matter what you think, your comments will not overthrow or change it at all. If the NWO is taking over, go on and take over and get it done with. With all this said, our government is far from perfect but to suggest that they killed thousands at WTC is close to treason not to mention a slap in the face to people that lost somone there.

Exactly Eric!

This is great, a new hopefully civil thread trying to get to the bottom of 9/11. Why don't we go slower and try to discuss the inconsistencies. I won't call anyone sheople on this thread. But realize we have people like Joc, and Debunker who are here agitating by calling people hoax believers and kooks. When I insult someone saying they are ignorant, the mods shut it down. So lets keep the insults out of this thread entirely, please.



I agree, nothing we do here will stop any future events from happening. In fact, I hate to say it but I have lost all hope for the future of this country. Sometimes I do feel like leaving the US, but I don't have the money, and my family is here. Also the new World order involves the world, not just the U.S.

Why do I think the government either let it happen or carried it out is because of all the lies that the public has been told, can easily be proven lies, yet the lies are continued to this day, and the public doesn't know any better. It's what the news hasn't told you that you have to research. Everyone knows the official story. but not many know how the official story has been debunked. It's a cause so important it make killing us worth while.

This doesn't scare me at all. I think this is a part of the grand plan. It has to happen, and will happen. It makes me mad because so many people will suffer because of it, bringing trial into our lives is done in order to purify our character
Humble you. Hopefully these troubling times in the near future will help bring many closer to God.

Let's talk about the lies the government has told the people.

1) they claim the black boxes were never recovered from the twin towers. That's a lie, they were recovered and the people who found them were told to keep their mouths shut.



If you believe the government, then these firefighters are liars. Who benifits the most from this lie, whoever it is. Who do you believe?

ok D i will be as gentle as possible--the projectile that struck the pentagon is nowhere near as important as "why" anything hit the pentagon at all--your falling hook,line and sinker for one of the propaganda techniques used by the govt to discredit the people exposing them--they have one of their agents posing as a 9/11 truth representative claim that a missle hit the pentagon--of course by the laws of average there are going to be a certain amount of people that will not research profess this theory right along side a legitament argument like the demolition of bldg 7 or towers 1 and 2 then they turn around and discredit the whole argument on account of the one they can ridicule and the rest gets discredited through association--forget the missle --does it not bother you that the pentagon was vulnerable 38 min after the second tower was attacked and the doubt was completely removed whether or not we were under attack??--(THE PENTAGON the heart of our nations defense)--please dont say incompitance!! youll only be insulting your own intelligece--the next time you make those claims im going to assume you have an agenda and point it out--another red flag or clear cut piece of indirect evidence lies with the secret services "reaction" as the country realized it was under attack--in an obvious position of severe threat to not only the president but numerous children due the the presidents visit being announced in papers days in advance the secret service did absolutely nothing with an inkown number of commercial aircraft flying towards alledged suicide missions--the only logical explanation lies in the actual knowledge they posessed--
secret service failures

your falling hook,line and sinker for one of the propaganda techniques used by the govt to discredit the people exposing them-

Only because it doesnt follow your theory. the report makes logical sense missile theory etc does not. There are many clips that cleary prove it was a plane that hit Pentagon

The reason i think there are so many conspiracies on 911 is because the the us goverment was completely incompetent in handling the hole situation and therefore left many doors wide open to have the truth twisted, if you look at the london bombings the conspiracy theorists we're all over it like a rash but because it was dealt with properly and the authorities in the uk rapidly found out who did it and the professionalism they showed in doing this leaving no stone unturned and being open about what happened the conspiracy theorist have gone quiet on that front but with 911 the way the american goverment works keeping everything cloke and dagger theres always gonna be stories for the theorists to twist.

Nice to see both sides intend on having a civil discussion about this.

Please note that anyone insulting other people for their beliefs by calling them sheeple, morons, kooks, idiots or anything of the sort will be disciplined. I encourage people to report any inflammatory posts from users instead of stooping to their level so I can deal with them.

Thanks and enjoy the discussion.

Well, it's good to see that you aren't buying the entire "official" story of 9/11. What exactly do you think has been covered up, or not told the truth, about it?

As to the scale of the cover-up, that's a valid point that should be addressed. The JFK assassination was, to most people including myself, also a cover-up. It was not as large in scale as a 9/11 cover-up would be, but it showed that if key people can be either involved or compromised to secrecy, getting away with the murder of the President could be achieved.

If you have read about the JFK story, you are also aware that many people were "silenced" in all manner of ways, and many others have only spoken about it anonymously. The fact that Jim Garrison blew open the conspiracy in the mainstream media gave not only credibility to the story but also spurred on other witnesses to come forward and tell the media what they knew or saw that day. But, it took many years before a lot of evidence came out, and even today there is much we don't know.

I believe you when you say you would speak out about the real story even if you were risking your life, or health. But, when these people are threatened to keep quiet, they are told that not only they, but their entire family, relatives, possibly even friends will also be killed if they speak out. Would you speak out under those conditions?

You mention the structural engineers that back up the collapses as explainable through plane impact/fire. There was one expert in the field who did speak about the collapses. His name is Van Romero, the director of research at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology.

In an article and interview actually on Sept.11, 2001 from the Albuquerque Journal, Mr. Romero:

studies explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures.'...assists in forensic investigations into terrorist attacks, often by setting off similar explosions and studying the effects.

Van Romero reported that he had studied the videos of the WTC collapse and concluded that the towers were most likely destroyed by carefully placed demolition charges. He told the 'Journal':

The collapse of the buildings appears "too methodical" to be a chance result of airplanes colliding with the structures, said Van Romero, vice president for research at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology. "My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse," Romero said.

"It would be difficult for something from the plane to trigger an event like that..It could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed in strategic points," Romero said.....Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures.

But only 10 days later, the Journal placed a retraction from Romero above the first article. He is only quoted twice, first with "Certainly the fire is what caused the building to fail." The other quote is "Romero said he has been bombarded with electronic mail from the conspiracy theorists. 'I'm very upset about that,' he said. 'I'm not trying to say anything did or didn't happen.'"

"Certainly", because his company does work for the Pentagon, someone or other may well have 'persuaded' him to retract his statements from the first article. He makes no mention of why he is now sure that it was fire that caused the collapses. And his last quote sounds like he's under quite a bit of stress to not be taken as believing explosives were used.

A point on how many people would actually know about the cover-up. The government, military and intelligence agencies are very compartmentalized. They operate on a "need to know" basis, with each level only aware of their specific area of duty. Very few, only at the highest levels, are aware of the entire operation. And one company can also provide multiple duties for the same operation. For example, the company (Securacom) that did security for the WTC, Logan and Dulles airports (by an amazing coincidence, the two airports the planes took off from on 9/11), had Marvin Bush as one of its directors. According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down." That comes in handy for taking control of three key areas by one group!

I believe that in time, the story will become clearer. It's not going away, more people are coming out about what they know. But, it may take another Jim Garrison to really break the truth to the masses, or be the spark for it.

"But only 10 days later, the Journal placed a retraction from Romero above the first article. He is only quoted twice, first with "Certainly the fire is what caused the building to fail." The other quote is "Romero said he has been bombarded with electronic mail from the conspiracy theorists. 'I'm very upset about that,' he said. 'I'm not trying to say anything did or didn't happen.'""

Perhaps he found new evidence that persuaded him to believe differently? That little article can sound any way you want to hear it. I personally just hear him retracting something he eventually found out wasn't true.

"What exactly do you think has been covered up, or not told the truth, about it?"

I have personally heard from one of my brothers in the military that after 9/11 they were told of a possible invasion of Iraq. They were told this after they heard of the decision to strike Afghanistan. Someone in the ranks asked why, because the government knew it was Osama who was responsible. To which the sargeant replied,"There are better targets in Iraq." My brother would not just make this up for no reason, and this makes me think Bush had been looking for a reason to invade Iraq. And there is also the fact that so many people that were not involved in the attack were blamed immediatly.

"if you look at the london bombings the conspiracy theorists we're all over it like a rash but because it was dealt with properly and the authorities in the uk rapidly found out who did it and the professionalism they showed in doing this leaving no stone unturned and being open about what happened the conspiracy theorist have gone quiet on that front but with 911 the way the american goverment works keeping everything cloke and dagger theres always gonna be stories for the theorists to twist."

Well hooray for the British, they deserve a cookie. Would you consider the British governments shooting of that innocent man right out in the open the proper way to deal with it? Especially after he had fallen and could have been reprimanded. I think the U.S. government handled immediate relief really well. Not to mention the incredibly brave firefighters who charged straight into that hell. They really defined courage for me personally.

Romero and/or his company were not involved in any part of the investigation into the collapses, and that fact is actually pointed out in the article. Also, there was no investigation even initiated 10 days after 9/11, when he made his retraction. In the first article, he made many specific points that indicated controlled demolitions. You can obviously tell he is speaking from his expertise in the field, and even explains how this could have been done with only a few explosives placed in key locations.

His retraction is very strange. And his quotes also are contradictory, and show he does not have any new evidence that made him change his mind (and why would he, when no investigation had even begun?)

His first quote: "Certainly the fire is what caused the building to fail."

"Certainly"?!

Why would an experimental scientist, commenting on anyone's previous conclusion -in this case, his own - demean the original assessment as "certainly" wrong?
Wouldn't that mean Romero "certainly" assessed this most important terrorist attack without first getting the facts? Doesn't that make Romero a sloppy scientist?
How humiliating for a man who acts as an expert witness in courts of law.

His second quote:"I'm not trying to say anything did or didn't happen.'"

WHAT??!!?

In the first article, he was quoted saying the WTC most likely collapsed due to demolition charges. And in the retraction he is first quoted saying he "certainly" was wrong. Then in his next quote he is "not trying to say anything did or didn't happen"!! So he really doesn't know what to think??

He is saying three very different things over the two articles. Only the first article makes sense when one considers his expertise in the field. The retraction is not from someone speaking out with new-found evidence that needed to be revealed to the public, and to properly correct his original opinion on the cause of collapse.

Sadly for the US, I beleive 9/11 will go the same way as Roswell, JFK, moonlanding hoaxes, Bigfoot, Aliens and Elvis. 9/11 will still be talked about in 50 years time with no real outcome or answer. There must be more conspiracies in the US per square mile then any other country on this planet isn,t it time to move on.

I think that our government knew about the attacks beforehand, but didn't do anything about it. The "war on terror" raises so much money, and that's what they wanted. War = Money.

You could actually be right but lets look at this seriously if someone had told you several planes were going to be hijacked with knives then flown into WTc would you have believed them most likely not. We felt ourselves invulernable and found out different. No even if we knew and we dont know for sure we did I doubt anyone would have believed it.

Sadly, you may be right. The U.S. is corrupt to the core. What do you suggest we move on to then. Trying to get a democrat in office for the next presidential election? That won't do anything. 9/11 is the reason for everything that is happening in the world today. Without it, there would be no war on terrorism, no patirot act, no domestic spy service in the U.S., no war in Afganistan, or Iraq. 9/11 is the most important issue today. It's all based on lies. Our future is based on lies, and innocent people on both side are dying because of the rich men and thier deception.

If the government wants to keep a secret, they can just deny everything, and the people won't know any better. Sure the ones who are not gullible (you may call them paranoid) will know, but they won't be able to do anything.

Just what lonelyalpacafarmer said, Iraq was planed long before Bush admitted it.
He acted like war wasn't inevitable. I will ask my military friends about that one. Attacking Iran has also been brought up. I just hope there isn't another attack to justify that war.

If someone doesn't admit to a crime then you can never be 100% sure. That is satisfaction they will never give you.

If I was in-charge of national security and was told planes would be hi-jacked by knives I better as hell believe it. You can't mess up the stakes are too high. As they have said you must go after each threat no matter how many are just cries of wolf.

I just don't understand how the pentagon got hit. Look at the little sesna planes that get 2 F-16s to escort them out of the airspace. Those F-16s are VERY fast. There not called the worlds best interceptor for nothing. Why wouldn't they stop the plane after the trade center was hit? Scooby already asked that but he was effectively ignored.

-MuddyFrog

The crazed lunatics that hijacked the planes did it, its that simple

Show me proof! Seriously. And it has to be more then George Bush said so.

Tell me why not one of the thousands who would have to be in this to make it work never came forward.

There you go with the assumptions again...Those get old almost as quickly as the insults.

the divisive factor in the issue lies in the geopolitical "beliefs" of the individual--there are people that think democracy exists,the same people who think the "federal reserve" is a branch of the govt and that their bank accounts are really backed by some type of collateral reserve,believe the govt and everything fox/cnn tells them--then there are those who have accepted the reality that the globe is governed by a ruling elite and that the current borders and "governments" are nothing more than allegorical chess pieces on a gameboard where the elite entertain themselves anxious to sacrifice their pawns or decimate their opponet so they can reset an play again

The answer is because the "conspiracy" never happened.
But your statement, no matter how many times you say it, will fall on deaf ears to those who believe in a conspiracy.
It's sad, I know, but such is life.

Whatever , you never have anything to offer anyways. I asked for some proof that 19 Arab hijackers did the deed. I want you to present me proof, or tell me what proof you need from me to show you the government is lying.

This coming from an admitted theif!? taken from another thread "I'm a criminal. IN fact just last night, my friend and I conspired to steal some money from his ex-girlfrinds car. That's right, it was a real conspiracy! I was on the look out, while he broke into her car, and stole over $100. He even stole her CD's to make it look like a true burglery so she wouldn't blame him or me."

I'm not going to let you get this thread locked.

I didn't steel anything. I was the lookout. My point was that it was a conspiracy. And what's your point. Do you have any evidence 19 Arab hijackers were responsible for 9/11, or are you just going to ignore and not have a real debate. I have done many bad things in my life. So has George Bush, yet he is president, and you believe everything he has to say.

That still makes you an accomplice scooby, and thus still a criminal. But hey, you came out and admitted it at least.

Stop the assumptions. I don't assume every conspiracy 'realist' is a crackpot. So stop assuming those that don't believe you are complicit with or blindly believe the president.

As for your challenge of evidence, it's impossible. Whatever source I could quote you'd just say 'it comes from the government and therefore Bush'. AND I would be labelled (again and falsley) of blindly believing everything our president says. On that basis alone I am not going to take the challenge because I am not going to get blasted with false accusations and have YOU insult my intelligence by saying that I blindly follow everything our f***-up of a president has to say.

My point was the credibilty of claims and poster. Any courtroom would do the same. The admission opened door. The willingness to decieve, steal and, cover up for wrongdoing discredits the poster. But that just my opinion Far as getting thread locked thats not my goal I merely reposted a comment. The advice and opinions of a criminal or felon I find questionable. I again say not my goal to lock thread I only posted what was already posted I did not fabricate anything. What I posted was there for anyone to see.

Please don't get my thread closed..

We aren't trying to. Scooby just put his foot in his mouth this time and we are trying to show that to him.

This is a little off-topic, but I have to say Scooby, that you are headed straight for jail unless you change your ways. Your attitude regarding the crime is so off-base that it seriously makes me wonder about your maturity.

Obviously, you have no respect for the property of others. You have made this very clear, and I would not welcome you in my home or anywhere near it.

First of all, she had it coming. We took karma into our own hands.

My point in posting that information was to show how easily a conspiracy can happen. All it takes is two or more people to plot and carry out a crime. Of course if she accused me of stealing it, I would deny everything. In fact she would fit the definition of a conspiracy theorist. And she would be right, yet I would still deny it. I also wanted to show that people are not all good. And to assume nothing corrupt can happen in the US government is ridiculous.

Conspiracy theorists are not always wrong. They are not always right either.

Don't forget, I rarely put my opinion out there. Mostly I post articles that emphasize my opinion. Sure I get blasted for cutting a pasting, but what I post is not what you will be told in your daily newspaper.

George Bush and his cronies are white collar criminals. Of course they are currently above the law, so anything goes, they can just deny it.

Now lets get back to issue. I wanted someone to show me proof that 9/11 happened the way our government said so. I won't insult you, I will try to show evidence to the contrary, and that's all.

I'm sorry for assuming people here like George Bush.

I have personally gone over most of the evidence and saw other documented evidence which shows that the official version could not have possible happened. What would I have show the skeptics to prove the government is lying?

I'm sorry for insulting anyone and everyone.