I'll put you into context. You claimed that the stoning isnt followed anymore because it's in the old testament. Does that help you understand my reply?

I think I might be a bit older than you pops.
OT the book of a Bloody God.

I think he (Jesus) said that he came not to change the law.

Yes there is a difference between the two versions of the same God. The OT God is more bloodthirsty of the two.

From reading both the Old and New Testaments, some things are pretty darn clear. The God of the Old Testament was a God who ruled by fear . . . those described as "God fearing men" are commended for their being so. The "Glory of the Lord" referred to the terrible destruction which God was thought to have caused with what were by any modern understanding just natural forces of nature at work. Sheol was where everyone went after they died, regardless of whether they were good or bad, and conditions there were miserable for all. That was the Old Testament description.

Then we have Jesus and the New Testament, who says that He is not there to change even a jot or tittle of the Law, but proceedes to do so in many and significant ways, with the biggest change being that religious leaders of the past were completely wrong in their concept of God . . . that God wasn't a God to be feared, but rather a God to be loved, and one which would love you back. The concept of an afterlife also changes . . . from a miserable existance to a new and glorious afterlife, but without any real description of what the afterlife in Heaven would actually consist of. No wonder that the Christians had to believe that Jesus was the literal "Son of God". There is no resemblance between the two. Jesus is the antithesis to the God of the Old Testament.

So then . . . Was the Old Testament God indeed wrong, or just change His mind as to how to approach humankind? Will the real God please stand up and introduce Himself? Not very likely, IMO.

Sheri - everyone needs rules and guidelines to follow. As I said in my last post, I've had experience working with teenagers at a youth group I help run. One rule we have is that when the teenagers arrive, they can't just leave whenever they want. This is because Cabramatta (where the youth group is) can be a dangerous place at night and we don't want them to put themselves in danger by going and getting food or whatever. But, as teenagers do, they sometimes go anyway. Now we warn them, tell them why those rules are there, but ultimately they keep sneaking off. What are we to do? We have a punishment system in place where they are banned from youth group for 1 week. They like it at youth group so they don't break the rule.

If those rules weren't there, we can tell them over and over that going into Cabramatta isn't the safest option, but they won't listen.

There are other rules, each for a reason. No ball games during supper for example - the ball gets kicked, and suddenly the drinks are flying all over the place. The rules aren't there because we're evil monsters who want to impose our sense of right and wrong on them. The rules are there to protect them, to ensure everyone has a good time without getting injured and such.

Regards, PA

Actually, there was not concept of an afterlife in Old Testament Doctrine. That's why books like Ecclesiastes continually comment on what is the point of following God when the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper.



The Law hasn't been done away with. It's been fulfilled. The entire Law can be summarized as "Love God, love others".

Do a study into what it means to "Fear God". I think you'll find that the term in fact is a term of reverence, and love and worship. It's not fear as in "Oh crap I'm gonna die" kind of fear.



It's what's called Progressive Revelation. It's all the same God and all fits into God's plan to bring us to Him in voluntary worship.

We all know what happened to Sodom and Gomorrha.



This one is taken from a parable


I can find more verses of this loving God you speak of but....I see no loving God!

How full of ridiculous rationaliztions you are, Paranoid Android. Abe Lincoln once said that while the tail of a horse could be called a leg, the horse nevertheless still had 4 legs, not 5. You can call change by the term "fulfillment" but in the case of Jesus, He clearly, for His cult, significantly changed Old Testament laws. Most Jews, of course, weren't buying any of it, and for the gentiles, it was merely a new religion, with no Old Testament laws which meant anything to them. Some of them did pick and choose which laws of the Old Testament they would like and preach them themselves with their own individual amendments, just as their leader picked and chose, and amended as He liked. As for an afterlife, if the Jews didn't believe in one, why did Saul have the Witch of Endor contact Samuel's spirit? Can't have a "spirit" to contact without some kind of afterlife, can one now?

Larry - what Laws have been done away with?

Zannie, to Pa this is a loving god, I too used to not understand, but thats the awarreness there's this earning favor of this cruel god and to a christian its a life long begging and supplicating whether its true or not is of no importance its in there minds this is the way to heaven, this is what it means to be a "good christian"" If I'm off on my analogy feel free to correct me this is my understanding after many posts I have read by you. Zannie if PA is happy and this works for him YOU know........ Namaste sheri

The law of Circumcision, the law against eating pork, the sanitation laws (Kosher), the move of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and on and on and on. All these things were incorperated into the new cult by the post-Temple early Christians to either attract Gentile recruits or to convince that the new cult was not a cult of the despised and rebellous Jews.

perhaps you are right. If they want to blind themselves to what is written in their own Bible, who am I to show them?

I thought you might say something like that.

Circumcision - I don't have a Bible to find the exact place, but Jesus speaks of being circumcised in the heart. In other words, not done away with, but fulfilled.

clean and unclean foods - I believe it's Matthew 11 (or thereabouts) which states that it's not what goes into your mouths which makes you unclean, but what comes out. Again, fulfilled, not done away with.

Sabbath - Sunday has never been the "sabbath". It is the day in which we traditionally attend worship in today's society. I can meet up on Wednesday and that would be ok. Hebrews 4 speaks of the Sabbath rest in heaven. Hey, surprise surprise - fulfilled, not done away with.

I can continue on if you like, but I think you get the idea. Every law you mentioned is still in existence, it's just been fulfilled.

Regards, PA

In other words, even though Jesus said the the Law would not be changed one tit or tittle, the later Christians did in fact change it. Circumcision in the heart? That is just another idiotic saying put in the mouth of the man by those anonymous writers. I doubt that Jesus ever said something like that.

so what about differnt modern day stuff like drugs and alchohol is that a sin who dicides that

Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Tell me, if every Old Testament Law was still in place, would you be asking us why we do this when Jesus said he was here to fulfil the Law?

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

fulfill means to complete, obey. Yeshu was saying that he himself obeyed the law. and that comment about eating unclean food-i seriously doubt that Yeshu ate anything unclean. what he meant was, "of course keep kosher, but don't defile youir mouth by speaking evil." I don't care what the standard christian interpretation is. I have a mind, and a heart, and that is what they tell me. what you are stating, p.a., is the christian party line. Why not form your own opinion for once?

They are my opinions GM.

Fulfil means to bring to completion. What does bringing to completion mean except that it was previously incomplete? Now it is complete.

Let's look at a little pattern I've discovered.

Animal sacrifices (physical Law) is no longer needed because Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice (Spiritual Law)

Circumcision (physical law) is no longer needed because it's all about being circumcised in the heart (spiritual Law)

Sabbath (physical Law) compared to Sabbath rest in heaven (Spiritual Law).

Do not murder (physical Law) compared to Jesus saying anyone who is angry with his brother is guilty of murder (Spiritual Law).

See what I'm getting at. Many Old Testament Laws are physical. Jesus came and fulfilled them. It is fitting that the Law is thus now. It is stated that the Old Covenant was written on tablets of stone (physical) where the New Covenant is written on the heart (spiritual).

Regards, PA

so far this is all standard christian rhetoric. and btw, the early followers of you know who called themselves nazarites, the same word used in modern hebrew "Notzrim". so any reference to christians, until at least 200 years later, is a later interpolation. i can find all of your arguments in maybe three christian "tracts", chosen at random. just party line, not independent thinking, like i would expect from a college student.

Might be kinda late on this. But this is what PA is referring to:


Romans 2:29
No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

so all you guys just follow the party line? god doesn't contradict himself, but the bible was wriotten and recopied by humans.

Hi PA

PA i can tell you with 100% accuracy those rules are for you (so you can feel as if you are doing something even though they are useless in addressing the core issue and their may be an occasional person who comes along and admits this but few are intellegent enough or courageiuos enough to try another way) they have no effect on the behavior you can't change anyone at the behavior level , you have to change someones mind about things this is basic child Physchology, These so called rules are punishments and the point is to make it as horrible as possible so a kid wouldn't want to come back, yet next week it will be full of new kids the point is its not effective if what you say you want is happy healthy kids this is a huge problem in this world few peole can say I don't know everything the way it is isn't working , I was a product of a childhood that used all the same tactics I am the parent who will try the new way and you know what parenting is a pleasure and my kids are truly happy and healthy and I take full credit for it with lots of great people over the years who said there is another way and walked with me and supported me, I urge you to be one of those people PA we need change not a system that denies its hand in things who sees it doesn't work but is too lazy to try anything else, the something else may be a more effective way I too help alot of parents parent in love your understanding is limited love doesn't mean kids do whatever they want, stateing that just shows your inexperience on this subject. namaste Sheri

Zandore - none of those passages addresses the issues. The Law hasn't been done away with, so your argument is specious at best.

Sheri - I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this. We're just going around in circles.

Regards, PA

if the law hasn't been done away with, why do most christians ignore it?btw, i know a lot of christians who still follow the law.

OH but they do address the laws of the OT.

Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

You were out of context.

i tried to explain this to the young chap earlier, zannie:

If the law says stop at the red lght, I am fulfilling that law by stopping at the red light, not by dying for the traffic signal's sins.


not one meaning of "to nullify, to void, to make unnecessary by dying for sins of all future humans-where does p.a. get his definitions? from his church? It means to carry out or obey, to perform. as in, in modern english,

He limits himself to the box. Unable to learn.

Look everyone, it's an Atheist in a box. :: points up ::

That denotes the mental attitude of Christians that will not accept all that is in their Bible.

i would go so far as to say that, if I had had the slightest interest in becoming a christian, I wouldn't dream of it after seeing the behavior of christians here. I have never seen such rampant closed-minded bigoted thinking before.their hatred for jews, muslims and other non-christians is, however, typical, not the exception.

Who do you think are the more open minded people here if I can ask?

As I've said before, we are all close-minded as each other. I am close-minded as you. You are as close-minded as me.

Like my address to Sheri, I now secede from this argument on the Law too. We are going in circles, and neither of us is going to change the other's mind.

Regards, PA

PA I used to be a devout Christian.....So no I am not closed minded. It was my choice to be a Christian and it was my choice to stop believing in what I think is an imaginary deity.

Need I say more?

And I used to be Agnostic, truly believing that even if God did exist, there were so many religions out there that none of them could possibly be true. It was my choice to be so, and it was my choice to accept that the Bible was true.

By your reasoning then, I am not close-minded.

Yet I believe we are all locked into our own worldview. We may change, grow, expand, or even discard beliefs and such, but that does not mean we are open-minded.

Regards, PA



Not really sure what you're trying to say. I'm just sick of going over exactly the same points.

But you refuse to acknowledge the discrepancies and contradictions that exist in your Bible. That your God according to your Christian Bible is a bloody God.....Is this not the sign of a closed mind? The evidence is there for you to read if you just open your eyes.

As I said, I used to believe the same. I came to believe the Bible to be true and these so called contradictions that you speak of were nothing more than ignorance.

What is your belief now Zandore? Why do you follow it? Even an answer like "I follow no religion" is a worldview, and essentially locks you in to a certain way of thinking.

Regards, PA

You have acknowledged that the Bible has been edited many times in the centuries since it was first wrote. To say that there "Is no contradictions" is at best a fools hope (No I am not calling you a fool). To many editors and edited to many times for there not to be some.

Why do you think that a person has to have a religion or a belief?

With respect PA This way of thinking is the classic sign of a closed mind.

Everyone has a belief of some kind. Maybe not a religion, but that's different. It is impossible to live without a belief of some kind. Even belief in absolutely nothing, as the Nihlist's do, is still a belief of sorts.



Perhaps. But I've acknowledged that I am close-minded. I just claim you, and indeed everyone, are just as close-minded.

Regards, PA

Wow, I made a joke and just because I'm a christian you attack me and base that joke on the fact that I'm a christian? O_o..... YOU guys are the odd ones.


It was just a friggin joke, you guys should be more down to earth. PLEASE tell me you're not like this 24/7 especially in real life. I just thought the picture looked funny. Get a life people.

Well, some us laugh at xians and atheists.

And some of just sadly shake our heads at those that do not know the Lord Mithra.

Who said we were upset?

I got a life when I gave up on Christianity. How about you?