not hear to make waves or anything, but one of my friends brought somting up to me if god loves you so much why does he send you to hell where you burn and suffer forever, ya you sin but he sends you there. I am a faithful catholic christsan
so if you can debunk this great,if you agree what ever just putting it out ther

Wrong section!

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."
Gene Roddenberry [1921-1991] Creator of Star Trek

From a chirstian viewpoint god doesnt send you to hell. Only a sinless soul or spirit can stand in the precesnce of god (why moses couldnt see gods face). You dont go to hell cause of sin you just cant live in heaven cause of sin. It was always like this until jesus died on the cross it created a new covenant with god and now we can live with our father in heaven for we are clean with his blood.

This isnt what all christians believe but just a collection of what ive heard from pastors throught my years.

I am sorry Heru but that is not right.

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

thats the ethernal question, just because we cannot understand the actions of God that does not mean He is contradicting himself, we cannot put ourselves on the same intelectual level as God.

Read 20 to 23 in 20 god says.
"But", he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

This is where the idea that man cannot see god and live cause of his sin. Its just and idea alot of preachers have around here.

i think the reason we cannot see god is because if he reveals himself, there would'nt be a point in having faith anymore.

"Does god contradict himself?"

The very ida of god is contradictory.

God is a God of Love. He loves each and every one of us. However, God is a perfect God and cannot (or should I say will not) accept less than. The sad fact is though that humanity is not perfect and cannot reach those standards.

Now, God is a God of Mercy too, so God could forgive us, right. However, God is also a God of Justice, which requires that sin be punished. Thus God's ultimate act of Love and Mercy is shown when He Himself, in the form of Jesus takes the justice of His punishment for us.

This is the Christian view. The question should not be "Why does God send people to Hell", but rather "How great is it that God allows us into Heaven".

I'm sure I've given a million things for people to flame me for, but I hope this helps.

Regards, PA

Only because your god, according to your religion, made us less than perfect and placed a limit on us so that we cannot reach those standards. If we sin, its because he made us to sin.



Wow... a god that made us "sinners" by his standard, sins himself by murdering us, then punishes us for being what he created, and accepts those who havent turned away from him after all this into heaven. The rest, he punishes some more. What a great god.

so if you don't do what god wants sinning, believing in a nother god, 10 commandments.....so he's a fachist

? Please clarify. What exactly are you saying, and are you telling me, or asking me?

the very same arguments can be used to prove the abrahamic god is the god of pure evil. You will claim that argument is incorrect though, so it is time to see the errors in your own statements!

PA Do you remeber the words god, Life, Love??? they are interchangeable the God you speak of (conditonal in his love) is an oxymoron, the idea of a god who places conditions on the recieving of his love is unworkable, It is a contaradiction in terms, Yet this is the idea you have, requiring you to try with all your might to get close to a god you are deeply afraid of. Love and fear are mutually exclusive they can't exist simultaneously in the same space, many humans have a big time conflicted relationship with the Abrahamic God, isn't it interesting every sprititual teacher of any merit have said the same thing Fear Not???? there is nothing to fear because PA God wants nothing from you Just something to ponder. namaste sehri

When I was little I feared my parents, I knew that if i did bad I would get my @$$ beat now that doesnt mean i ran from them jumping everytime they said somethin or tried to hug me. Its fear as in respect.

And wasnt the orignal post about why does god send people to hell? For some reason everyones gotta post a joke or a comment about religion or preach like alot of athiest love to do.

So for systomatic God doesnt send people to hell he lets people into heaven. Salvation. Not damnation.

is that like the old argument about how he just lets people suffer?

Yes and I'am sure half of you on here that don't beleive it's right for God's judgement he puts on man, then I'am sure half of you beleive in the death penalty. If a man such as Saddam is being tried or just even someone that killed only one person they're whole life is being tried and you put him up for death row, how would that be any different than God looking down at the earth and punishing the sinful for things they shouldn't be doing. That makes you just as bad as your words you are judging God for.

Where did I say God only loves conditionally? I think you'll find i never mention that at all. God loves unconditionally as you say. God is a loving parent who sees His children disobeying Him. As a parent, if your child does something wrong, there is a punishment of some form or other. They're not punished because you hate them, but because you love them and don't want to see them doing the wrong thing. It's called tough love.

Though you don't believe in punishing your children, I think you'll find 99.9% of other people here will disagree with that.

Regards, PA

Ah yes, the old "it's not my fault" argument. God made us with the ability to choose - freewill, you understand (I forgot, you don't believe in freewill do you?).

Yes, God made us this way. Why? So that we have to rely on God. Grace (i seem to remember asking if people knew what this meant in another thread) is an undeserved free gift. If people could reach God on their own, then that negates Jesus' sacrifice. This makes a lot of sense - we are not saved by what we do, so that no one can boast - "I'm such a good person, God loves me and not you so nyah..... etc". With Grace, we are all in the same boat.



You're putting words in my mouth. I said nothing of further punishment. We live our lives saying we don't want God, so when we die, God gives us exactly what we want. It would seem to be a callous God who'd MAKE you live in His presence, wouldn't it?

Regards, PA

Read these verses:
Gen.12:7
Gen.17:1
Gen.18:1
Gen.26:2
Gen.26:24
Gen.32:30
Gen.35:1
Gen.35:7
Gen.35:9
Gen.48:3
Ex.3:16 <God is doing the talking
Ex.4:5
Ex.6:3 <Again God is doing the talking
Ex.24:9-11
Ex.33:23 <Talks of back parts
Num.14:14
Dt.5:4
Dt.34:10
Jg.13:22
1 Kg.22:19
Job 42:5 <Hears God also
Ps.63.2
Is.6:1
Is.6:5
Ezek.1:27 <Talks of loins
Ezek.20:35
Am.7:7
Am.9:1
Hab.3:3-5

Still believe in God?

Yep I do.

Im not gonna play this game. You give three letters 3 to 4 numbers and a colon. While im suppose to give a paragraph and scriptures 3 verses before and 3 after to explaian it. When you dont even read it.

Your not my savior from religion sorry to burst your bubble. I just posted to answer someones question thru the beliefs of "HIS" religion or a religion close to his. And I come back out of curiosity.

Im not a christian but that doesnt mean I have to belittle Paranoids and other christian members beliefs or there god(which is very very rude and anti social). Or try to enlighten them to my beliefs.

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, the power to say "yes" or the power to say "no," the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.

that is a feeble argument. if we are in his image to act according to him, then everything we do is like him. there is no "not like him", and thus no reason for hell. This is of course working with a complete model of what a "creator" would be.

Think about how long that post would have been if I posted 7 verses for each of the verses I cited there would have been 203 verses.

I am not trying to be any ones savior....I am not in the religion business so no bubble popped. You gave inaccurate advice and I was correcting you, If you give out religious advice you should make sure it is accurate.


BTW: The last quote in that post was not directed at you
Read it again

Not at all. Since I dont believe in god, I do accept that when I do something wrong, it IS my fault.



And this is another aspect where god is contradictory. God supposedly knows everything... so when he designed/planned us and the world, he knew exactly how it would turn up if he'd create us this way. He made us with a certain genetic configuration, which would, coupled with the events that happen around us (which he also knowingly created) would make us make certain decisions, such as, for example, the decision to murder. Hence, when he created us, he created us to sin and, retaking the example above, murder.



Religiously speaking, sin is an undeserved free gift god gave us.



Im not putting anything in your mouth.



I know you didnt. Its your religion that did. Apparently, even after we die, if we havent turned to your tyranous god, we're punished.



No... not wanting a tyranous god doesnt mean we want eternal punishment and suffering.

Ahh, so instead he'd make us live in the presence of another of his creation which punishes us and makes us suffer. We want that, hmm? Maybe we just dont want to be with either tyrant if your religion is true?



No, god sends us here. If your religion is true, I dont want to be affiliated with a tyranous god, nor do I want to be affiliated with Satan (if he's evil like he's portrayed in the bible).



Yet he created some so that they automatically go to hell, and others so that they go to heaven (which IMO, is probably just as bad morally). Remember, he "designed" our whole lives, according to religion and logic, which means he "designed us" to either make the choices that would result in him sending us to hell, or sending us to heaven.



Logical impossibility.



Like I said above.

The main question here is why he would want infinite punishment for finite sins. It's like horrendously torturing your child for the rest of his/her life because he/she told a fib. Like Larry the Cable Guy says, "It's like wiping before you poop, it just don't make sense!"

Starlikite, If your present religious construction of God is one of a God with needs and seeeing yourself as helpless and needy depending on A god that is also needy works for you who am I to say otherwise, I observe this construct to be deeply dysfunctional and has done little more that move humanity to the brink of extinction, there is no requirement that you have to take on this idea of a needless god the question to you and all the religous people is can you open your mind and at the very least admit this may be WORTH looking into more closely, The problem of this world is one of close mindedness ,I'm always amazed at the differents ways people declare there lack of resposibility, .



PA just because 99 percent of people punish there children does not mean that I should or would, It doesn't serve me to be Blase about "punishing" anything as an effective tool for the betterment of humanity, I am a thinker and i make my decisions based on my personal experince not on the popularity of a method, I am the example for my children i am ther hope and representative of humanity it is a role i take very seriously and my children are your future so it may serve you to put some thought into your ideas, i know you are not a parent PA so in all fairness until you are you may not be so quick to advocate the violent treatment of children and shrug of any responsibility for it I am not going to beleive for one minute that you condone a violent vengeful violent god and make excuses for him I would strongly urge you to take a closer look. Just an idea Namaste Sheri

Yes, close mindedness is a world problem of major proportions. Sheri, I fully support your view on punishment of children: the world would be far better off without it. Violent chastising of children is especially inadmissible. And the distorted, man-made idea that God, the 'Great White Spirit' of the Native American tribes, is violent and vengeful is simply absurd! Namaste, Mark

Merci Beaucoup Mark I deeply appreciate your support Namaste Sheri

i stand behind you as well, sheri.

negative reinforcement (punishment) is not nearly as effective as positive reinforcement. Teaching the child what is acceptable has far longer lasting effects than punishment for "wrong" behavior because the latter does not provide the child with an alternative. It is also important to recognize that in teaching through any type of fear, ulimately you teach the child how to avoid punishment (and even how to outsmart you). Is it really an adversarial relationship you wish with your child? I would think not. Yet, people use short term solutions because of ease or lack of understanding. Using a "god figure" to justify such behavior is pathetic.

Back to the point o humans not being able to "live" when exposed to the presence of God, may have a scientifi, rather than spiritual meaning. Perhaps this "alien" creator entity is radioactive to puny humans? This might also explain why his closest "associates" are the dragonlike and reptilian Cherubim and Seraphim - creatures by their nature very resistant to radiation maladies as the reptilian fauna that thrive around nuclear test sites prove.

As far as the verse about God being close up and personal with Moses, it probably meant an "angel" representing God.

radioactive reptilians? i don't think the contradictions of the bible can be written off to the presence of even more "characters".

thankyou also hyper, its time a new idea emerges on the treatment of our children , the greatest blashemey to me is to find this behavior acceptable and making up a god that demands this it sickens me quite frankly. If you are to combine my ideas Hypers ideas and Marks Ideas you would have a very effective way to guide a child which doesn't use punishment, or at the very least a place to start. Namaste sheri

Whether or not you believe in any of it, a study of the ancient scriptures reveal that the assistants or servants to the Gods of many ancient religions, including that of the ancient Hebrews were distinctly reptilian in nature, and probably the origin of a world-wide belief in what we call "dragons". This is nothing new, it is something very, very old, though often covered up through the alteration of religious texts and abolishment of whole books in some cases.

I do not think it is impossible that the God myths of many religions have their origins in extraterrestrial visitations. It takes a great deal of "faith" to believe there isn't more advanced civilizations somewhere out there that would be regarded as "Gods" to the humans that may have encountered them.

visitations leaves a lot of questions. Perhaps it happened. Perhaps the stories are also gross embellishments of encounters with other "tribes" and other earthly creatures. While i think it is possible there is life on other planets, until evidence of their visiting earth and "assisting" the ancients is found, i have to take a stand similar to that of mako (although i will admit they might have been so good with their "tools" that nothing got left behind, or the tools "degraded" quickly, by design, so that no evidence was left, or who knows what else since we have no basis to make assumptions on).

I agree with Mako too about the ancients being capable of making the pyramids and other ancient monuments, but many anthropologists note an incredible, even unnatural burst of technology at the end of the stone age (domestication of animals, agriculture, smelting copper, etc) that could be explained by "contact" , and even the ancient peoples themselves all seem to attribute these things as help from theri "Gods". No one has adequately explained why virtually every world culture believed in "dragons" either, even Carl Sagan's idea was rather lame. And as mentioned before, in most of these ancient religions they seem to be assistants to Gods, or Gods themselves.

If you choose to look at it that way, so be it. What right does the pot have to say to the potter "why did you make me this way?" or "I want to be a kettle".



You don't know very much of Christianity then. My "religion" says nothing of punishment, as in hellfire. It simply mentins separation from God. I suppose that could be considered a form of punishment though......



Again, I made no mention of eternal suffering..... Indeed God being Life, it is conceivable that separation from God means simply death, which is what a lot of people want anyway..............



Not a concept that's Biblically supportable I'm afraid. Separation from God - yes. Eternity with Satan - no



Mako - no torture I'm afraid......

Regards, PA

Sheri - perhaps you misunderstand. I said "punishment of some form or other". this does not necessarily mean violence or pain - indeed I do not believe a spanking to be a viable deterrent anyway. Grounding a child is punishment. Not letting them watch TV is a form of punishment.

That aside, I have put thought into my ideas. The fact that i mention 99% of people do something different to you was not to say "you are wrong". That was not my intention. I was just saying that some form of punishment (not necessarily violent) is the most loving thing a person can do. working with teenagers at a youth group, I can tell you that if I didn't put my foot down sometimes, then the kids'd just run amok. There needs to be rules and boundaries, and then those boundaries must be enforced. To not do this invites anarchy - I've seen it Sheri.

Regards, PA

What right does the potter have to punish the pot for being a pot?



This varies due to personal interpretation, but around my area, its a common belief among the christians that you will go to hell for certain things. This belief, IMO, stems from verses such as " If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. "



A lot of people want death?



I never said its biblically supported. Neither is god creating time... but you believe he did. Eternity with Satan is a christian belief, according to some christians, and in my area its quite common.

When you get right down to it, the potter has every right to do whatever he/she/it wants with the pot.



Oh, you're still going to go to hell. It's the definition of hell that's in question. The biblical view on hell is separation from God as opposed to fire and pain and torture and pineapples.



We're all going to die eventually, and many are happy with the concept that when they die, that's the end. No more. Just nothingness. Many see it as closure - after all, who wants to live forever?



It may be a common belief, but it stems from the popular belief of the Catholics, which most of the Christian faiths today came from.

regards, PA

pots and potters...

you are an imperfect being made by an imperfect being....

if that imperfect being were to have created you with the ability to smite or kill its creator, then that creator gets what he has coming to him.

PA we have been on this topic before, I myself have raised a teenager, I considers myself to be quite expert with teenagers,No one is truly loved if there are restrictions on them and the same is true for self if you have rules and regulations imposed . Yet, choices aren't restrictions so you wouldn't call the choices you make restrictions, I lovingly provide my kids with and all my loved ones and myself with information that i think I have to help them make good choices "good" being defined here as the choices that are likely to produce the desired result as well as what I know about their desired result which is to live a happy life, I can offer what I know, share what I've learned but to impose my ideas or rules or or choices upon another by withholding love or threatening with any kind of punishment because I think my kid has made poor choices shows my skills in parenting which need to be looked at and when my kids make poor choices this is precisely the time to show my love my compassion there is no higher expression PA. as I have said the bible isn't the best book written on raisisng children it will raise dysfunctional messed up children who grow into emotionally crippled adults who eithe rvitimize or are victimized and see no other way except to use punishment as a means to handle situations but if you are seeking an asset to humankind you wouldn't follow the bilbe, IMO Namaste sheri

Got a bad child PA?

Take him/her out and stone them. That is what your Bible says to do isn't it?

Old testiment son old testiment. Nice try though. Most christians dont follow the laws of moses(its been awhile since i read up on judaism) other than the 10 commandments. And yes jesus made reference to it but If i remember right they were nitpicking that his disciples didnt wash there hands before they eat and were making a big deal about it. So jesus made a smartass comment about how they dont stone there kids like the law they supposeidly follow to the letter.
Sorta like you dont follow one of the big laws so why are you acting like that when someone doesnt wash there hands.

And uh sheri just cause you raised a few kids dont think you know everything about em. As a parent you only know what your kids tell you and what they didnt hide. Kids are known to tell there therapist, social worker, friends and even pastor more than they tell there parents.

Someone said they worked at a youth group so im sure theyve seen all the many varietys in teenagers personalitys. Some kids dont need discapline and some need it alot.
Im happy that you never had to punish your kids, I wish all parents were that blessed.

And the pot has every right to question the potters sanity and question anything.



But that is not the biblical view, that is your view. The whole fire and brimstone was used in the middle ages to scare people into following religion... but it is still believed, widely enough, that thats what happens, as well as Satan being the ruler of hell... So if you go to hell, you are rules by the evil Satan in that case.

Never the less... you said that you believe that in your religion, seperation from god is death. I dont want to die, therefor I'd see death as a punishment. So... So, your god makes us sinners, makes us sin, murders us (and children) for sins some of us did (which he made us do), then if you believe in him and all that other stuff you to to spend eternity with him, oh joy . Those who dont want to be affiliated with evil which they consider he is are punished by eternal death...



So?

Btw, the only reason we're going to die, according to religion, is because god made us die.



Many people. I'd prefer living forever over dying. Do you want to die?

Still part of the bible and, btw, is what god himself wanted. Whether its outdated or not is irrelevant. God wanted stonings for certain reasons... reasons which, today, we see are horrible acts of evil. God, however, thought it was the right thing to do. If he doesnt want us to do it anymore, ask youself why? Is he forcing us to stop doing the right thing, or does he acknowledge that he was wrong and that it was actually the wrong thing to do? Which is it Heru?

A perfect entity whether real or made up can't contradict itself. Men are to blame. I personally believe that "God" is a made up entity to help people cope with everyday struggles or questions about there ultimate purpose. Now this doesn't mean that I don't believe that there could be a "God" or a higher source of wisdom beyond our comprehension. If it gives you strength and a sense of purpose, then it can't be a bad thing. People tend to blame "God" or somebody else for their own shortcomings. If we all only realized that the power to accomplish great things is in us. But we should be careful in the goals we set for ourselves, that they're not rooted in egotistical ventures, but to the benefit of others. Motivation and strength extracted from "God" or any other perfect source of energy can only be beneficial. If you choose to extract greed, anger, jealousy, etc., that is what you will dish out.

Which god are you talking about? Im more judaism than anything else. And even though christianity and judaisms have alot of similarities the two gods are different (my belief).
Me I believe in the law. If a child doesnt respect his parents(and I dont mean once or a few times) and is or will be a cancer to the community then kill em. And yes I believe in offereings(sacrifices) and wont do till Olam Ha-Ba. I guess im a crazy barbaric orthidox in this age. Also kinda bored with this thread
But you called my name so I had to reply. Do you realy want me to explain anything. I mean we both know thats not what you want. So what do you want stellar im curious.