Azalin:

Are you sure it was on Discovery????? They can't find it in the archives... ???? Hmmmm... will keep trying....

God needed a way to punish his creation, and show them what guilt feels like. In your child metaphor, think of it as playing with fire. You don't want your daughter to put her hands on the stove, but you really want to make her aware of it's consequences. So your not gonna take her hand and put it on the stove, it's gonna make you look bad, instead, wait for your child to burn themselves on a match, or lighter, or something of that nature, THEN they know, without you being the bad person. You warned, they didn't listen, but now they know the consequences. How many times as a parent are you going to say " SEE, I told ya so !! " It' s a hard decesion, but God had to invent something that Satan could capatilize on, and put his plan into motion. It wouldn't be right for God to damn mankind, he knew mankind had to damn themselves.

Okay.... point taken.....

P.S. I don't have to let my 13-yo read this, right? hee hee hee

It was only Gods plan to make mankind aware, that there are 2 sides, good and evil. Sinning would be dis-obeying what God wants, and following the devils hand. The tree of knowledge was placed in Eden to tempt man, and show him the the 2 sides. Of course this was Gods plan, like I said, he needed a way to show man that he has free will, and he can in fact do what he wants, but pay the consequences.

Satan is the "baddie" because he tempts man away from Gods teachings. You can pretty much say God needs this, it seperates the good from the bad. Satan is a very very powerful angel, the 2nd most powerful, and has the ability to bring man to him.

lol, no of course not

Okay,

So the point of damning ourselves is free will? Kind of like the theory we are all here to be tested?

exactly, god had to show mankind evil exists, and it will tempt us all away from gods teachings. In this case, Satan was successful and they found out the best lesson.

Or.... you can say God was successful because he knew Satan would have to succeed in tempting Eve to bring about free will, therefore, here we are today....

Unfortunately, you now can also say Satan is succeeding in that nowadays not many believe in him....

Okay, not as hard as I was making it.....

So if God and Satan were successful, they make quite a team.

Pretty much. When satan believes he has enough souls, he will probly try and wage war on heaven, hence judgement day. It is said Satan will take over the world in the book of Revelations, who knows, seems to me he already has a pretty good control over it.

The anti-christ will make a new government, bring peace to the world, will create a new world church and so fourth.

Sure do lol. God likes to use Satans faults , Satan likes to exploit gods "faults", thing being he doesn't have any. Satan just doesn't believe it's all truly what God wanted. I can see his reasoning, look at the world around you, it seems apparant Satans winning if in fact sin will direct you to hell.

Just gotta have faith, and know that God is the main director and has everything under control, just continue to follow his teachings.

So do you guys think that Adam and Eve had a chance of not eating of the Tree of Knowledge, or were they doomed?

Why bring world peace? I can see bringing forth a new church. And I can also see that bringing about world peace would put us in doubt of God, but what would then be Satan's agenda? Just to bring everyone over? I cannot imagine why else he would want world peace as he loathes humanity...

I do not think they were "doomed".... I believe God knew it was going to happen and that it had to happen for us to be where we are today. I was just confused as to why he went about it the way he did.

I am a firm believer in God, that will never be swayed or changed.... It is organized church I sometimes question. God is perfect, man is not. God does not corrupt the church, man does. I am not saying organized religion is bad, I am just saying man perceives things at times the way he wants to. Look at how many translations of the Bible there are? Now, how many of us have had the opportunity to ask God in person what is correct and what his original plans are? That is what I am getting at.... nobody really knows, except for God.

Did I make sense?

If God knew it was going to happen, how then could they not be "doomed"?

Because he knew it needed to happen, it was a learning experience. Adam and Eve were never doomed, God never left them. But, the only way for man to evolve was to eat the fruit, gained the knowledge of good and evil, go through life's experience and choose what course in life you are going to take... Free will.

My 6-yo is growing up waaay too fast for me, gaining indepence, making decisions.... It breaks my heart, but I know I gotta let her.... Same concept.... She is not doomed, when she makes the decision to pull Marty's tail (the family dog) and Marty turns around and nips her hand, I'm there to wipe her tears (and remind her she was not supposed to do that!). I wouldn't leave her for it.

Good answer Amy. I firmly believe the bible was written through the inspriration of God, however, God never intended for the bible to be duplicated thousands of times. In doing this, I believe their are errors that could very well of been generated within it. I beleive in the bible as a whole, and see it as a great teaching tool, I would just love to get my hands on one of the original manuscripts.

I meant doomed to fall. Like the Fall of Man.

No, I do not see it as the Fall of Man, I see it as The Beginning.....

It is the Fall of Man, lol. Adam and Eve eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge led to the Fall of Man. No more paradise, etc.

No, God had a plan of Free Will so that some day we could have the choice of returning to paradise.

The fall of man would be if God left us....He did not, he gave us free will. You cannot truly love someone without giving them free will nor can you make someone follow you.

Amy, it is considered the Fall of Man. They become knowledgeable of sin. That's what being knowledgeable of sin is. It's just a title not to be taken literally.

I guess it would depend on who you talk to.... it may be considered the fall of man - which is an opinion. In theory, if they had not eaten the fruit, we would not be here, we would not have evolved, we would not have free will... Therefore, I see it as the beginning, not the fall, literal or not....

It is considered the fall of man yes, because it was mans first of many sins against god. However man had to be brought into temptation, it was gods plan. To give man free will is the most righteous gift anyone can give you, the freedom to do whatever you want. You can follow Satan if you want sure. The bible states what Satan will more then likely do to you, but its STILL your choice. Not much different then livng with your parents when your younger. You have to abide by their rules, if not, leave the house, then you can do what you want.

Point taken..... I still consider it the beginning.

So is it wrong to be knowledgeable of sin?
If you guys haven't answered it already that is.

From where I am right now, no. If we are not knowledgeable of sin (distinguishing the difference between knowledge of and committing sin), how can we have the free will to make the right decisions?

But then again, if you are not knowledgeable that you have sinned, you have still sinned. So aren't you still "wrong"?

That leads to a whole other debate. If you sinned and not knowingly sinned, can you call it a sin? That leads to the bigger question of, can you be accountable for it if you did not know you sinned?

I think it depends on the sin. If you did it with good intentions and not knowing it was a sin, I think only God can judge on if you committed a sin and whether you are accountable. But, I think a more experienced person, like Azalin, can answer that question better than I can.

It is NOT another debate. That is one of the original questions in my post.

You are right.... I took the first part of that question and ran with it. In the short:

Was it wrong to eat of this tree? Think we covered that.

Is is wrong to be knowledgeable of sin? No, I personally do not think it is wrong to be knowledgeable of sin.

And what is your take on knowledge: good, bad, both? I do not think knowledge is good or bad, it is what we do with that knowledge.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.
Do you think people should be held accountable for sins that they are not aware is wrong?
For example, someone commits a murder without knowing it is "sinful"...do they go to hell?

So it can be both in your opinion?

Yelekiah:

I have an answer for you, give me a little bit, I am right in the middle of a STAT and then I gotta reboot my system....

No problem. Take your time.
I appreciate it when people share their thoughts. I just like to see different perspectives, no matter what they are.

I do not think that it is wrong!


If one is not knowledgeable of sin, one cannot learn from that digression and evolve.

True, but wrong in the sense that if they are not aware they have sinned, they still have sinned.

Okay, here it goes...

I think we all are going to be held accountable for our sins, yes. BUT.... (there is always one of those, isn't there?) I do not think you can commit murder w/o knowing it is a sin, unless you are mentally impaired, i.e., schizophrenic, etc.... But, then there is always the definition of murder to consider. If I point a gun at someone who is attempting to do real harm to me or say one of my daughters, shoot the gun and the result of that is the person dies, I believe that is self-defense. Am I going to be held accountable for it? Yes. Do I think Iwill be sent to hell for it? No.

Now, if I was just angry at that person or hated that person and murdered them w/o any instigation, yes I believe that is an unforgivable act. If I am schizophrenic and I murder a complete stranger I have never seen because the voices told me to, am I gonig to be held accountable. I don't know. I don't have the answer to that and I can certainly be wrong in any of my answers above.

As for hell, I do not believe in hell as in fire and brimestone. Just like I do not believe Satan has horns and a tail. I believe he is probably a very physically beautiful entity. And I do not believe he wastes his time on rapistist, murderers, etc. I believe hell as an outer darkness. We all sin, but are we all sent to "hell" for our sins? No. I believe there are some unforgivable sins that will put us there, such as murder or seeing Christ and still denying him. But, I am not really to judge on what circumstances for everything is.

Think of it this way: If you are committing murders, etc. do you really think you would want to go to "Heaven". Probably not. For that person, that probably would be hell.

And knowledge is what we make of it. It is neither good or evil, it is what we do with knowledge.

Sorry, went off there.... not sure anymore if I even answered the question.

So, now that I gave you my long-winded opinion (which is just what it is, I could be wrong), I would love to hear yours!

This is actually a "Tree of Knowledge" thread instead of a "Hell" thread, but how can there be a "Hell" in the Judao-Christian religions if there is no mention of it (Sheol is not the same thing), in the Bible until pagan Greek colonization in the region brought the idea of Hades, demons, etc. to Judea, and the Judaic theology? They apparently liked these ideas so much they decided to copy them, just as the early Christians did, which is why the New Testament is filled with so many pagan Greek ideas. So if you are going to believe in the Greek Hell, shouldn't you believe in the Greek Gods too? Evidently the writer of Revelation, John of Patmos believed in them, for it is not Satan that rules Hell, (which is nonsense for Satan is a heavenly Seraphim), but the Greek God Apollyon. (So much for Christianity being a monotheism!)

Well, Draconic:

I was responding to a question Yelekiah asked me regarding Hell, which stemmed from our conversation about the Tree of Knowledge, so I felt it relevant to give my view of Hell.

Now, if you will excuse me, it is getting a little steamy in here.

Apollyon is a power angel that sits by Satan. He is the chief of all demons. Much like Beezlebub, and Belial, he is a high ranking officer in the demonic hierarchy. Think of him as God's Arch-Angel Michael. Yes John of Patmos or John the Baptist, wrote what he saw in relevations. The greek's religion might of had influence over his writings, but as far as Im concerned, Im a believer in Demon and Angel Hierarchy. To the greeks, he was a very evil spirit, alongside Satan, or Hades, or let's say the Saxons with Hel. They were all brought together to create a Demonic Hierarchy. Religion is still monotheistic, we still believe in one God, they just added more information regarding the presence in Heaven and Hell. Whether they adopted names and concepts from Greek Mythology or Norse, it matters not, they are all still talking about the same evil.

Here is what I have gotten so far from your posts:

God gave Adam and Eve a commandment, not to eat the fruit.
Satan told them they could.
Satan was part of God's plan for them to see good and evil and give free will.
Satan is God's second in charge, and part of God's plan.
Knowledge of good and evil is gained by humans.
No knowledge of what 'sin' means is given to them by God.
God does not talk to humans any more.
Free will is given to them to choose their best paths.
God will punish them if they sin, but they are not aware of what sin actually is.
God will send them to hell with Satan if they sin.
Satan has control of the earth by talking to people, making the world hell.
To somehow bring them back to the garden
It was all part of God's plan from the first place....

Huh? That is a circular argument. No wonder it is so confusing: It makes NO SENSE at all.

Try reading it again.

Yes.
Yup.
Yup.
Nope, don't ever think I said or saw anyone write he was second in command. Yes, he is part of God's plan.
Yup.
It was.
Prayer.
Free will is for everyone.
I did not say he never said what sin is, I said it was interpretation.
No exactly what I said, and I do not believe in a literal "hell".
I've never had a personal conversation with Satan, never said that.

Sorry Amybutts, I didn't mean you personally. I got the jist from the whole thread.

Quote by Azalin: Satan is a very very powerful angel, the 2nd most powerful, and has the ability to bring man to him. By talking to them?

Quote by Amybutts : Or.... you can say God was successful because he knew Satan would have to succeed in tempting Eve to bring about free will, therefore, here we are today....

Unfortunately, you now can also say Satan is succeeding in that nowadays not many believe in him.... By talking to them?

So if sin is an interpretation, then how can it be called wrong or bad? If it leaves such wide margins?

What is God punishing us for, if there is no literal hell? Are you saying that God does not judge and punish us, and send us to hell? Because you just said you don't beleive in it, yet you beleive people should go there anyway?

No, I am not suggesting that you did have any conversations with God or Satan. If God answers us in prayer, then why are we so worried about retribution?

Sorry I hope I haven't sounded too blunt, the whole issue of sin/retribution/hell/satan and God's plan/love/freewill are just so contradictory that I can't help but question it!!

Not a problem..... I believe in it and I am usually in a state of confusion myself!

p.s. I'm not ignoring your question.... just trying to wrap-up reports for the day... I will answer you later.... gotta meet my deadline.

I would add my 2 cents, but it seems Amy has taken control over this :-).

Yelekiah, I appologise in advance if my reply seems excessively long-winded!

Taking your last question first, I believe that 'Hell' is a state of mind. This is just my opinion, I know there are a myriad alternative opinions out there.

Some humans live in terrible circumstances, children dying for want of basic fundamentals, or others, enslaved, etc etc, you get my meaning....

This can be no less than a state of hell for those humans!

Others live in the lap of luxery and live in a state of utopia. Many of these people will give to the needy, others won't!

Please don't get me wrong; of these two groups there will be exceptions to the rule. Also, there are many groups in between, each striving for their own personal gains; and maybe, hopefully, those of others; just trying to better the world for mankind as a whole.

But to my mind this planet, is hell for all humans, in the sense that we have to strive to rise above war and famine, greed, plunder and murder. It's a sick world! I do not for one second believe that 'Hell' is anything other than what we make it, and we certainly seem to have achieved that on this planet.

Therefore, to my mind, people ARE being held accountable for their sins; we ALL are sinners in one way or another, even if only small transgressions. I don't believe in 'Satan,' but I do believe that some humans are evil; and yes, I do believe that everyone, Saint, or Sinner, can evolve! Otherwise, what is the point of it all?

Hell is considered to be without Gods love, its not considered a burning place with sulfur and brimstone. Actually in Dante's Inferno, a man that was said to of visited hell, he described it as the pure opposite. A cold ice cave / glacier, with no warmth. To be cold, and shivering, no warmness for the body, no love what so ever, just cold emptyiness. I totally believe Hell is indeed in our minds. It's a place, but if you were to go to hell, it would be different for every one of us. Each of us have our own fears, and our hell would be all of ours combined into one.

Reminds me of one of my favorite movie quotes, for anyone that has ever seen Event Horizon.

"Hell is only a word . . . the reality is much, much worse." - Dr. Weir

I am so sorry Azalin Forgive me?

I am just kind of excited because being on here has made me realize I have not lost faith in God, just the way things were going!

*walks away from computer, and backs off*

I think we are forgetting the very basic question here though, having knowledge is not a sin, the original sin was doing what God told Adam and Eve not to do, eating the fruit.

*Okay, really backing off now*