Don't worry about it at all Piney, I think that what you were saying was that it is not 'magic' but an actual process at work.

Rowan how u going maaaaaate. We'll have to catch up soon.

So have you ever heard of junjudiis (spelling?)

Thanks for the welcome Tia

Sir Piney, I do extend my apologies: from my perspective, it seemed as if all those wonderful stories were going to be attacked. My perspective is, perhaps, a bit defensive and paranoid, both because of what I have experienced in the related stories (and many more) and my experiences in engineering. Although I would be considered a scientist of sorts, my profession is very fixed and unwilling to accept even those things that are before them. Won't go farther into this, 'cause it is really annoying.
My figurative hat is off to you Piney, and to all the rest of you writing in this subject: I feel everyone should read these things and study them, for the betterment of mankind.
Pine Barrens, huh? Perhaps, Piney, you have heard of Tom Brown Jr.? If so, may I get a quick thought from you about what he has written? Seems to me from what I've read of his he has gone down the right track.

hi, do you have any more information on these stones you had mentioned?

I'll see what I can do. This was 2 generations ago that the stones were buried - by my husband's late grandparent, who was reluctant to pass on any cultural information unfortunately. So I do not know if there is much more information save except their purpose (oracle I beleive).

Thong (Hmm... That handle is certainly curious!!), many years ago I did a substantial amount of research into the 19th century old West. I lived in a small town in MT, my parents were homesteaders on both sides, my mother was a historical writer/novelist, Dad was a woodsman and his family "tamed" (if that area of MT could be) a portion of MT, and best of all (because the records were there) was the public library. The library was donated to the town by a very wealthy family, to be supported by an endowment, over a century ago. Still is there. When I was little, I had such an interest that I became well known to the librarians and they allowed me free run of the place.
There were quite a number of writings in the lib about the development of the west; I must have read dozens of references to the US Army using Indian messengers instead of the Express, because of the reliability and speed. I believe there were references to four forts in the MT area, at least a dozen in the midwest, and numerous in the southwest. If you press me for sources, I must admit that I am lost in that respect, since it was nearly fifty years ago (yes, I am that old!)
Even more interesting was a record I found in a history (?) of the Apache under Geronimo. During the chase, somewhere in the Texas-New Mexico-Arizona region (I was never quite clear about the exact where), the claim was made by the Apache that they were crossing a sandy, rocky desert area, many miles across, and they determined that the Wasichu would stop at a particular place during this chase. Apache felt that the whites would use the area as a bivouac. According to the story, the Apache warriors doubled back early in the afternoon, changed themselves into rocks, and in the night changed themselves back and attacked the Army soldiers as they slept. Two soldiers were spared so they could tell the rest of the Wasichu and perhaps the whites would quit. Nice legend, hey?
The interesting part comes when I found records of an army foray into the same area wherein there was a 'massacre' of all but two of a patrol that was chasing the infamous Geronimo. (funny how the whites got killed it was a massacre and Indians got killed it was a great victory, isn't it?) According to the survivors, the Apache appeared from nowhere and slaughtered the patrol, caught them completely by surprise, as the sentries had been posted far enough from the main body so there would ample time for warning.
I expect that with enough searching these things could be found again.
Another anecdote I have was watching a 12 year old Blackfoot lift a rock that had to weight at least 200 pounds. I had watched him trying for probably an hour, but he couldn't. An elder told him he wasn't 'seeing' what to do with the boulder after he picked it up. The kid sat down, got a far look (kind of like that 'thousand yard stare'), then stood, walked to the rock, picked it up like a feather, moved it a few yards and put it back down.
I was a lot younger then, about 18, but was surely impressed by all these things.

Thank you all again for this line. I must also add that while in the navy I was fortunate enough to spend a week in Australia (Coral Sea celebration, 1967); made some friends there, came back with some artifacts from the 'outback', and some day I'll be coming back to spend more time.

Thanks alot. I appreciate it.

Awesome! Which 'artifacts' did you come back with? Just curious because as you know the Australian Aboriginals used the land to such an extent that everything was either bark, rock, wood, or woven raw materials. It should be called the Wood Age (not Stone Age).

The artifacts (what a strange name, huh?) were given me by a fellow I met (long story) in Sydney. He was a salesman, if I remember correctly, who travelled across the country and he had acquired many things in his travels. He actually wanted me to stay there (I surely did give it consideration!!).
Among the things was a boomerang a little under four feet long, obviously hand carved, unlike the standard things here in the US. This one is gently curved through its entire length, and has was my friend called tribal markings, also along the entire length. The markings resemble sinusoidal waves, diminishing and superimposed; the thinckness increases from one end to the other, at its thickest being about 5/8", the thinnest being a little more than 1/4". The wood is quite hard, dark brown, with few knots, and a tight grain. The width varies from about 2" at the thin end to about 3 1/2" in the middle and about 2 1/2" at the thicker end. The aerodynamics are subtle, yet quite evident. I was told that the thing would return, but was never really intended to: the expectation was that the hunter would be required to go retrieve it. In looking at this thing, I guarantee I would NOT want to be hit by it. I was also informed that it was well over 200 years old at that time, 1967.
There were a few smaller items, modified seed pods with ornamental painting; a hollowed wooden stick a couple feet long apperently used to drink water from holes; several bits of woven stuff I can't really describe well.
The boomerang is kind of a pride and joy of mine, and I have treasured it through the years. It's a wonderful bit of my stuff.
But it does make one wonder: in examining this boomerang and its aerodynamics, how is it we 'scientific' ones consider the Australian aborigines "ignorant" and "savage"? Some things I will simply never quite understand. That boomerang is beautifully engineered, and whoever made it was a highly skilled artisan.

Yes I am familiar with the aerodynamics of boomerangs. I agree with you that they have been misunderstood the whole 200+ years that whiteman has been in Australia.

Not to mention the dreamtime stories, it has been said that Aboriginals were quite psychic and telepathic. My husband's family has several stories of being frightened around camps just like Mase's story. And I know for sure that they are especially sensitive to ghosts and have many ghost stories from their childhoods.

Two things, Rainbow:
First, I had to go look at the stuff I brought back. The seed pods (I think I mentioned) were painted with designs using dots and triangular shapes, pods very dark brown, old,old, old, and about two feet long. Dried, with the seeds still within, and they rattle when shaken. Have no idea of the purpose. There is a thing we called a bull-roarer as kids, also with markings, and the string (?) is woven reed or grass; I don't have the fortitude to try and unwrap the string, may fall apart. Another is a pair of sticks, carved pointed on one end, carved to a chisel shape at the other; the pointed end has three bands cut out of the circumference, with dots that almost look like tracks between the second and third band. Three more bands are cut around them about a third of the way towards the blunt end, with more dots between the first and second, and more between the second and third. The rest of the sticks are clear of markings. I may have been told the purpose of these, but for the life of me I have no idea now. Perhaps someone could help with this.
I do know that handling these things imparts a feeling of peace, I guess I would call it. They just feel good.
Second, it seems to me that when a person begins to use the senses and has the fortitude (and it really does take some guts to get far into this stuff) more and more one tends to see things that "aren't" there (but really are), feel things that are very different, and perhaps understand life to a much greater degree than the normal urbanites. I've had some very strange experiences out in the mountains of both MT and CA (used to go off by myself a lot when I was there). Once found myself sleeping in an old burial ground; had to pay my respects, heap apologies upon them, and move a few yards away, which made them happy. Especially the apologies, and my respect for them. Later on, I revisited the place, and found the residents quite amiable. Everybody will think I'm nuts, I guess, but it did happen.

No I know exactly what you are saying because my abilities are being honed - no where near to the extent of yours I must say, and I am truly grateful for you sharing your story to see 'what the light at the end of the tunnel' might look like.

Ok I would suggest that the sticks would be clap sticks. Tap them together to the music of a digeridoo or chanting. The rattles sound like that too.

As regards to the bullroarer I am pretty sure that if you dampened the string it would make it more subtle, but I wouldn't suggest it because it could damage it. I know that when people make objects or weavings from dried grass it needs to be soaked and dried to make it malliable. (That is because I used to make little woven baskets when I was little to try to be like Aborigines. I also once tried to start a fire with rubbing a stick onto wood but only succeeded in blistering my hands. Oh the good old days!!)

You know what would make an awesome other thread? What people used different kinds of materials for in the older cultures.... hmmmm.

Nice Stories...Inspired me enough to put on a 'Northern Exposure' DVD. (Many cool far-northern Native American folklore stories make thier way onto the show)

You have a similar name as me.....

thats takes a lot of intelligence mr. Vort
lol

Hey!

NOW YOU MUST LOOK AT SQUIRREL BOY!!!

wow...thats weird

Now THAT is a good idea!! I read somewhere that some cavers were stumped at how the Indians in the southwest were able to wander around some of the caves there without using torches and such; eventually, these guys found some crystals (don't know what kind) that glowed when rubbed together. Fascinating!
Re the string, I'm going to leave it just the way it is. I'm sure the thing would work, but since I know how to make one anyway, I'd rather have it intact. Thanks for the advice.
Clap sticks. This must be what they are. I described the smaller one, and forgot the larger, main difference is that it is about an inch longer and slightly fatter and has more of the designs on it.
Anyway, I'll get off and wait for some more good things here.

Oh I meant to say before that the sticks could in fact be message sticks. Yes, the aborigines used to have their own written language of sorts consisting of symbols, but god forbid white man actually acknowledge it.

I wouldn't know what the messages mean because there are thousands of different tribal languages throughout Australia.

The new thread is called "Native Artifacts and Natural Culture" in the Crypto section.

hey guyz, i was just reading all those facinating stories and figured i'd share some of mine.
I'm a half-breed Yupik Eskimo from the Western Region of Alaska around the Lower Yukon River. I wanted to share that the white man has also sapped our history and past from us also by not allowing some of our elders to speak and practice the old ways from about the 1800's - 1960's , by doing so created a gap between the elders and us, the new lifers, as a result most people in and around my age group don't know some of the old traditions or real language of the real people. Yupik - roughly translates into "The Real People"

Well lets see, where to begin, oh yes the asking of animal spirits for their lives. A hunting group would get together and the men would sit at their camp and fast and pray to the animal's spirits that they were hunting, they would pray and ask the animal to give us their life so that our village would have something to eat. After a day or 2 of intense praying the animals spirit would call out to the hunter, letting them know it was time for the animal to give itself, and our hunters would always somehow be able to find exactly where the animals were, as if told by the animals themselves. It was always a rule or tradition that when the hunter took the animals life, the hunter would have to put some berries, tea, water, meat, fish, snow or something of value into the animals mouth to thank it for giving its life, depending on what type animal's life was taken, if it was a fish put berries in its mouth, if it was a moose give it water and tea, if it was a bird you give it fish and berries.

The Wind Runners - Many of my ancestors usually had to travel great distances to find food for their families and they would usually run for days on end at unknown distances and great speeds to find food. It was said that some of my ancestors could keep pace with a fox or wolf and never get tired. Note that running on tundra is like running on soft soft pillows, your feet never seem to find a solid bottom so your feet are always sinking at least a foot or so deep. (this does explain why we were able to run long and far, studies have proven that it can give such a great workout that we just evolved to run faster longer and farther.)

Shaman (Anargook) - Our shaman were probably very similar to other indigenous group's shaman's. they were very in tune with the natural world and how the natural world functioned. Our shaman would contact the spirits of our ancestors for wisdom, they could tell you exactly when a storm, drought, or food shortage was going to happen. One of the old shaman, (Gamiilak), that is still alive in my hometown spoke of how they were able to tell that the white man was coming, but couldn't really understand what kind of creature he was because he was so out of tune with the natural world and just seemed alien to them, therefore didn't know how to explain them to the rest of the village. There are other abilities that they had too, Shapeshifting, speaking with animals, Dream Walking (OOBE), and intuition just to name a few. It differs with every shaman because some are born with stronger abilites than others. *For instance one shaman (Waqaa) who lived about 100 years ago was able to shapeshift into a seal and would travel to other villages underneath the ice of the river, and when he would emerge from a hole in the ice, he would come out as a seal and be taken to a steam house or mens house to dry up and shed his animal skin and would walk out as a man.* Stories also said that they were able to tap into a higher older knowledge, the knowledge that was somehow lost to us aeons ago, i think it was the knowledge of the way to live harmoniously with nature and each other.

Now for the Monsters: Stuurpak (Goulh in human form) lived in one of the most desolate areas of the western region of Alaska on the lower yukon, very few berries and animals in her part of the tundra, and if you had the unfortunate chance of wandering into her lands while hunting you would be taken as a prisoner, slave or food. She has long sharp fingernails and would run like a dog on all fours and her nails gave her unimaginable speed so it would be impossible to run away from her. Legend has it that a hunter was caught on her land and was so handsome that she decided to keep him as a husband. She adored him and would bring him food and pets of all sorts, but she would also threaten him that she would eat him if he ever thought of running away. One day she brought a raven with brown eyes to him as a pet, at first it seemed like a normal raven, until the next day when Stuurpak left to hunt, the raven turned into a old man, the shaman of the hunters village. The Shaman had instructed the hunter of a way to trick Stuurpak in order to escape. All the hunter had to do was convince Stuurpak that he wanted to hunt again, and that he was goin mad staying inside all the time, and once outside he would then get to the nearest river and swim across, since she wasn't able to swim. From there the story says that Stuurpak figured out his ruse but she was too late, the hunter did get across the river where the raven was waiting to take him home. It is said that she is still roaming and searching the barren tundra's looking for her runnaway husband, crying as loud as the wind howls.

Little People (Moyukuyoli): Our little people are about 2-3 feet tall, mostly looking like normal people, they live in villages inside the cliffs or in caves. Their origins are unkown. They have super strenght and speed for small people, it is said that one Moyukuyoli could carry a whole moose all by himself with ease. They mostly lived in peace along side with the Yupik's, every once in a while disagreements were had on both sides and a village vs. village war would break out, with the Moyukuyoli winning most of the time. Story has it that if you ever encounter one you would have to trade it something precious of yours for something precious of theirs in order for you to cross paths safely with it, if you refused you were seen as greedy and selfish and would be taken as a slave for the Muyuukoyoli and would never be allowed to return home, most of the time this was the cause of intervillage wars.

The Big Mouth People (Don't know the Yupik name for them): These people were esentially cannibals from what I understand. Anyways, back in the day there was a village that consisted of people with very large mouths and big teeth, they would travel at night to different villages and kidnap their victims that stayed out too late, some of the victims were tormented until they were chosen to be eaten, the Big Mouth People were very mean captors. Not much has been said or heard of these days, rumors have it that a shaman was able to reconsile with them and teach them that eating others is not right and the great spirit didn't give us the animals and plants for nothing.

Thats all i can think of right now, there are sooo many more to share, i'll post them when i remember.

Well, count me in, also related by marriage. Wife's sister. Her daughter pretty much became a close part of my family for many years (wife and myself). I only have the very best memories of the time she spent with us. Now moved out to Uluru.

I have seen "Rabbit Proof Fence" a few times, suggested it in another thread myself Terriffic movie that shows what hardship were endured in these barbarian times. I do not remember the Eagles being that significant? They even got lost at one point and were following the wrong fence untill they met a swaggie that put them back on track. They knew they had to follow the rabbit fence to get back home. I really enjoyed the movie. I am pretty sure those girls are still alive.

If I can jump on my soapbox for a second here, I am a little concerened (and my niece understands what I say) about the "whiteman" refrences that keep poping up. I do agree that the plight suffered was disgusting and unforgivable, and should be exposed just as Nazi Germany was (6 millon or 6 thousand is equally disgusting). Any living surivors should stand trial still regardless of their current status or condition to pay for their crimes.
We are now a very multicultural society, and like my parents, many did not even enter the country untill this attrocity was swept under a carpet. Yet we still bear the mark of white man, and I myself have been harrased and attacked in the Queen Street Mall for being white. We are creeping towards our own apartheid and need to be aware of it. I'd really like for us to all get along. We believe in the same thing yet colour is seperating us.

The wrong people appear to cop the flak. It was England who invaded and destroyed the country, I never understand why our officials have to apologise for what happened, yet the English officials seem to get off scot free. I would support sitting on the lawn of Buckingham Palace and demanding the Queen order restitution for these crimes, not those who came here and tried to make a better life. Lets fight together for a common good and make fair fair. As the Oils say "Let's give it back".

I have always held a strong respect for the indigenous people and the connection they have to the land. I believe this connection is so strong that other cultures really cannot fathom it, which is why the naitive stories seem so very far fetched to non-indigenous people at times. Beyond our comprehension or undestanding. It is a very different knowledge from any other culture I have been exposed to and a very different way of looking at things. This is why I don't think the Tassie Tiger is on the mailand, in QLD anyway, the local tribes say no way.

Anyone got any Bunyip legends, for some reason I have always been fascinated by the Bunyip legend since a child. I can't remeber how many times I have read "The Bunyip of Berkeley's Creek" when I was young