Okay, I know that sounded insane, but I'm trying to think here,lol.

But when you are referring to something moving and flowing and spiralling, aren't you referring to energy?

OK, imagine a void, a vacuum. There is no energy waves, no specks of matter. Nothing.

I dont' have a theory on it because I am trying to figure out how energy/matter could have sparked from nothing!

I think any life force demonstrates what its aware of by the life it leads, I think you can get a pretty good idea on what someone is aware of or not, what leads you to the conclusion that a frog doesn't understand Mathematics thats the same understanding that knowing that sense that works for any organism. The only limitations that i think are valid are the ones we impose on ourselves. If you beleive you could grasp the universe I think you could, indeed our thoughts create our reality??? namaste sheri

Haven't you had thoughts or inspirations that seemed to appear out of thin air out of nothing?? all creation begins that way. once you've thought it the process of creation has halted its in the nothingness that meaning stems , then comes in nothing means anything at all until you give it its meaning see the circle??? namaste Sheri

Spiralling, yes. But the Universe turns on itself naturally. Let's pretend that nothing exists...yea just ignore everything I said...
I'll start over.
Moving was probably the wrong word to begin with. This nothing would have to be stationary to start. And then it would have to "realize" it was nothing in order to become a consciousness to create something. Because then the consciouness has energy to create.

OK, so if thought is the only thing that creates matter from energy, who had the first thought? Was that a benign being of some sort residing who knows where and thinking hmmmm let's have a crack at a universe!!

There are things though sherri that we cannot do. We cannot fly, we cannot live forever, we cannot shoot lazers from our eyes. If these are indeed physical limitations, then that means our physical brain would as well have limitations of what it can, and cannot grasp.

This being that had the thought had to start out small. It wouldn't have enough collective thought to immediately create the Universe, because it had to learn of itself. But as its thoughts progressed, the Universe expanded.

Yele, as always a joy to rap with such a fine mind and you also Rainbow,you guys are the reason I come back. i have to run will return later, Namaste sheri

I can see where you are coming from.

I had an epiphany. Let's reverse the creation of the universe and see what was there at the beginning. My theory is that there was one teeny weeny speck of matter/light/energy. And that matter was intelligent. It knew of its existance. It wanted 'friends' because it was lonely out there in that big dark cold expanse of nothinghood. So it duplicated itself again and again until you have what you see here on earth and through a telescope. All the amazing intricate perfectly fitting pieces that we are now questioning about in science and have been ever since the mind began to know itself.

Still doesn't answer what created that tiny little spec of matter/light/energy :-).

Cool theory. I have several ideas. But now that you mention duplication, I think of it as splitting in relation to the universe. This consciousness would have to split itself at some point in order to cause an expansion in the Universe. In one direction, it tries to find its origin, and in the other, it continues to spin and spin with its energy, which in turn transforms into matter. You look at the Milky Way Galaxy. It's nothing but spirals that spin and spin.

No that is true but we had to bypass that because we couldn't figure out how 'stuff' could appear from 'nothing'...

Hmmm good thinking 99. I think that instead of splitting, that matter was spinning in the first place, creating the energy it needed to expand outways as it spun. That explains how everything spins neatly!

I don't think its the only way to create actually the slowest way there is creation that stems from pure beingness also.and more beyond that we know so little not many even relize there thoughts create there realitys at this point like yele said we aren' the sharpest bunch. lol I say this fondly for all those who want to tout the superior intellegence of the human save it. namaste sheri

bingo i think your on to something yele I agree the universe expanded Good one my wise one. namaste sheri

But we have to start at the very very beginning. And this has to do with dimensions and how they are created. What causes hidden dimensions?? I think originally, there were no dimensions. So it can't have been spinning in the very very beginning. If the Universe turns on itself naturally, perhaps this "nothing" turned on itself naturally, that turn alone is creating a second dimension. And if it split in two separate directions, it created another dimension. Then we can get into strings and hidden dimensions later... But let's say that the Big bang existed...and was proven...these hidden dimensions would have to have smacked into each other,creating a larger burst of energy, which aided in creation of the Universe. That might explain the Big Bang.

Azalin i won't go gettin all weird on you so yes i get your point no we don't fly could we who knows anythings possible of course the conciousness would have to be there we have a society that exists on faith(hopes what they beleive is true) so the chances of anyone flying are remote if not possible ever lol. namaste Sheri

Yes! I think that you are onto something! I don't know much about dimension, string theory and the like, but you have incorporated it all here. I have read somewhere (dont' ask me where!!) just recently that a new galaxy or was it universe? was being created as a mirror image of itself with two exact halves. So your theory could possibly be true with the two mirror image dimensions crashing into themselves.

But how could they crash if they the exact halves? Could gravity have been sparked, creating a sudden pulling effect, causing the disruption of the original mirror image effect?

All right, great question...
(brain explodes)

I think that these halves were really close to one another, so close to the point of intertwining.
Now, the fabric of the Universe is flat for the most part, but gravity is a bend in space-time. This bending would probably be more accurate to explain them getting closer together. What then creates gravity???

Im no astronomer, I know what you are all talking about but don't know a whole lot of the specifics. All I know about gravity is it is created by mass. Through mass comes gravity, the bigger the mass, the stronger the gravitational pull. :- /

Ok, another epiphany over here!! MEDIC!!!

I wonder if all this swirling and whirling of the so called nothingness, could have created the planets and solar systems spontaneously and individually. This could explain the massive diversity in the systems, black holes, yada yada yada...

I wonder if tiny creations of the same formations could have been formed with atoms at the same time. Or, even better, were atoms formed first, then with their cyclic motions and electon swapping, etc, have swirled into matter, then rocks, planets, moons, suns, and solar systems?

Actually something else I just thought of too: Light is actually the smallest form of matter (photon/wave) so, was it LIGHT that was the first catalyst in the equation??

This must have happened after some source of light was produced by some thing, because light is energy. So what came first, the chicken or the egg?? How can energy be produced from nothing to create light, to create atoms, to create planets which create the solar systems and galaxies?? These themselves glow with light. Did the suns come first by spontaneously catching fire to gas (doesn't explain how the gas was created) to create the light to create the atoms, and so forth and so on...?????? Eeek it just doesn't make sense! No wonder God was invented to rule out every other explanation! And if there was a god, is god nothingness itself???

Time constraints. Thats all I've got to say. Thats why I'm only replying to this one thing ATM.



What do you mean? It doesnt mean energy can just appear. The energy is released from the matter and antimatter combining. Energy is the basis of everything. Atoms are basically energy when it comes down to it. It doesnt violate the law of thermodynamics at all.

Rainbow could it be possible that we see what we expect to see or perhaps look past what we don't expect to see, Many observations have whole theories built around them and they seem to work until someone changes there mind then the problems happen, What we see supports what we beelive which creates knowledge Sceince has concluided that NOTHING which is observed is unaffected by the observer, out of nothing comes meaning you know a mantra i constantly repeat is every conclusion is an illusion things become real because we belive them to be so if one beleives in Religion that is the world they experince if one belives in big bang Blah blah, when you get this you see the utter genius in the universe and the specifics aren't so important you begin to use this in your own life and then you see the silliness of limiting oneself with silly beleif structures Namaste sheri

matter can't appear unless it can disappear , if everything is experienced as matter, then nothing can be experienced as matter, matter does not exist as a discrete experince, it is not something that can be know, it may exist as a idea but you can directly expereince it, so much of the garden of eden mythology is explaining this( self seperated from self in order to remeber self again), thats the allegoric meaning for the being cast out of the garden of eden lore. again there is a deep truth trying to be conveyed. namaste sheri

WOW
Go away for a couple hours and it takes one an hour to catch up reading.
Great discussion, and I am going to throw in the word "vibration" into the mix.
Mnay times I hear that in order to raise your consciousness, you have to raise your vibration.

Perhaps it changes vibration?
Light vibrates at different frequencies creating different colours.
Look at the sun.
If it were not for the suns energy, we would not be here having this discussion, as the suns energy created all life on earth.

Right, but waves of energy which vibrate, causing matter to be affected, had to come from somewhere correct? We are assuming that there was nothing to begin with. So where did all the light waves come from which form the basis of matter? I withdraw my theory of suns creating matter because they would be rock-solid with matter all around them if that were the case. What does look like is happening is galaxies being born which appear on the surface of the universe. (Yel, you said that the universe is flat. I think that is just the way our mind percieves it, but I beleive it to be spiral as well. Could that spiralling of light be the different dimensions that we cannot see because the light is directed around the spiral??)

The universe is expanding outwards, making the creation of new galaxies on the outer rim and older ones on the inside. The spiral - could that be a constant? Does the universe ever begin?? (going round in circles here, quite literally, everybody...) What if it was one giant furnace, constantly swirling around and the galaxies on the inside are being burnt up whilst new ones on the outside are being created.

Ok so we are back to the original question: How are the new ones being created? What is the Creation Energy and how did it begin....

Sorry about that guys, I was thinking and typing and brainstorming and having multiple epiphanies all at once!

EDIT: Is the universe a giant swirling and spinning donut which directs the internal furnace energy back out and around from the inside two sides, to form the product for the new stars and systems? Back to my original question: Is the universe a constant? Did it never begin and will it never end? What is more, are there more than one universe? We can only see what the light allows us to see, and gravity is light bent in onto itself through the swirling effect. (Is that right?)

Can energy change form by vibration?
To create something from nothing implies a beginning, but what if it was energy changing vibration, to become a different type of energy which is in essense a beginning.

I think that energy can change form by vibration, but I am not sure it necessarily implies a new beginning. Energy vibrates at different frequencies causing our senses to pick up light as sound, colour, etc. The amazing thing I find is that those vibrations never disappear, they are always flowing ever outwards. Think of stars, whose pinpricks of light have been light vibrations travelling millions of years. I think that once we have higher technology, we should be able to pick up sound, images, and other information, and not just see the star- light from our external universe. That is the technology that SETI is using, radio vibrations from our external universe to try to detect intelligent life outside of the planet. (Let's not delve in too deep there, they are probably looking too far away!) But their range of frequencies are limited due to the radio waves are of a particular frequency range.

As I was saying, once we learn how to detect thought waves, see images in the light and sound from the starlight, we should be able to find out much more than just trying to hear rhythmic radio vibrations from the starlight with a giant satellite dish.

Yet.

Intelligent and mature discussion peoples keep it up. I find it amazing how life/the universe began, i mean i dont believe something can come from nothing- the big bang theory is flawed and Genesis seems far fetched- maybe its one of the few things we're not meant to know? Maybe its Gods little secret and we will never know? Kinda like a chef who wont reveal his secret recipe- Gods creation of the universe is a "secret" and might forever be- maybe its sacred for him and in the end- doesn't really matter to us ?

Well, a hundred years ago, we would not have been allowed to know how far-fetched Genesis was, yet in the following hundred years we have made mighty strides at understanding the universe...Flawed tho it be, BB seems to hold great seeds of knowledge of the creation. Maybe there was a Creator (my firm belief) and maybe the universe is self-starting, the odds are even but another 100 years or 1000 years of study and experimention may give us the answer - something that static beleifs can't.

You don't even know what I'm talking about. Energy is not created. I'm talking about when matter and antimatter of equal mass combine, it "disappears". Where does it go?

*Sigh* Come back to me when you can show me where I said energy is created, instead of telling ME that I dont know what Im talking about.

Created perhaps was a bad choice of words, but what I was trying to say was that when matter and antimatter of EQUAL mass combine, you don't have to worry about energy being released. Because it "disappears", hence, you didn't know what I was talking about.

edit: And another thing, I say if that were true, it would violate that law. Notice the word if, and learn to read carefully.

Ok, so you are saying that they cancel each other out are you not?
But could not the combining of 2 opposite energies become a third new one?

Yes, they cancel each other out. The entire energy "disappears"
And what kind of energy would that be?

It wouldn't be an energy that disappears, but the combining of 2 opposites to create a new one.
I don't think energy "disappears" or is neutralized, prehaps energy also evolves, and the combining of the 2 creates a new one.
And no, I have no proof of this

I'm thinking what's possible is that it goes into another part of the Universe. If that's not true, it would violate that law. There is no other way of explaining where this energy goes that I can think of...I really don't think that it can bleep out of existence. That would be too trippy.

Turtle it would have to disappear to appear, things aren't really opposite they are the lack of one or the other, hot and cold are not opposite hot is the absence of cold but its really the same thing the "opposite" is the illusion. you got the combing of the two opposites, what is the world of dualism, all about? whats it for?? It is'tn it just biological serendipity things just happen by chance and every one is happy, I think there is a great system in place don't you???? namaste sheri

*sigh*

When antimatter and matter collide, they annihilate eachother, meaning their energy is released, as I was saying. So no, it doesnt violate any law. The energy does not disappear.

The m & am do disappear/annihilate each other. The m & am reactants are gone, whats left is the energy that was released.



I know exactly what you wrote.



And you're telling me that I need to read carefully. Maybe you should read a physics book before attempting to argue a point you have no knowledge about. In a matter & antimatter reaction, the energy does NOT just "disappear", it is released... kind of the same way the energy in molecular links is released during an exothermic reaction.

I never said it violated any law to begin with, in fact, I said that it wouldn't make sense if it appeared when I was discussing quasars, therefore you did not know what I was discussing. No, I'm talking about matter and antimatter of equal mass, I believe you were discussing different masses.

See. Read carefully.
You missed the part when I said "if"

No I am not, I am talking of m and am of equal masses.



You just said that



Meaning that if it doesnt go to another part of the universe, it violates the law, but it doesnt.



As I said, I'm quite well aware of what you said.

No, you didn't know what I was discussing. If you were why did you even say it doesn't violate a law?
It doesn't just disappear. Because if that were true, then that means that energy can "appear"
If you understood that I was discussing quasars as well, why did you bring up that it doesn't violate a law???

"Antimatter is matter that is composed of the antiparticles of those that constitute normal matter. If a particle and its antiparticle come in contact with each other, the two annihilate and produce a burst of energy"
^That is where you got confused, Stellar. That's matter and antimatter of UNEQUAL mass, which does produce a burst of energy. I'm talking about matter and antimatter of EQUAL mass, which "disappears", NOT releasing energy.

It's so obvious that you are not aware and you are confusing the two masses.

Because the particles do disappear, but the energy does not, and assuming its not transported to another universe/elsewhere, it still does not violate the law.



No, that is where YOU're confused. That quote above isnt even talking about the mass of the particles, its simply saying what happens during a matter/antimatter reaction.

I wonder how long you're going to drag this on before checking another source to verify and find that you're wrong.



Is it? You're just setting yourself up to make more and more of an ass of yourself... and this is why I'm letting you go on.

If that's true, that is JUST what I said. Why are you repeating it? Why did you make that post to begin with?