Nope because if you read my earlier post I had said that the universe is God and given reasons as to why. To say that there is no God is like saying there is no universe which is absurd.

Bulls--t!

Again, it comes down to the same thing. Non-believers might say that "the idea of God creating a whole universe, is absurd" ...

Knowing and believing are two separate things. But even then, you've got your 'BELIEVERS', and then you have the people who 'THINK they KNOW' God exists. Nobody can say for sure, so to tell me that "to say there is no God is like saying there is no universe, which is absurd" is only something you BELIEVE - not KNOW.

For all we know, there may be many Gods who represent each element. Every one of them created the universe as we know it. They may not be a higher power - 'THE' God, that you guys are talking about may never have existed. Who's to know who is right and who's wrong? I personally don't believe in any of it, but I'd never say that I'm right about that, same as I'd never tell you that you're wrong.

Like I said before if you look at quantum physics therein lies the building blocks of our universe. However there is growing evidence that these same quantum processes are also responsible for giving us consciousness. If this is true if quantum processes do indeed do this and therefore it is very possible that the entire universe is likely to be conscious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/

I tend to think along those lines, and I suppose that means I'm pantheist. It's also very possible that the whole universe is just an illusion.

It's also strange how some particles mimic consciousness in their interactions.

The thing that gets me,
If space is infinate-there is no begining or end,How can God/the great creator exist if there is no start to it all?

I like to think of God as part of the unexplainable,beautiful cosmos and everything in it.

Space isnt infinite. theres a start and end to it. Big bang theory is one that tries to explain the begining and theres several different theories where it will end and it will end. Some scientists even believe (as I do) that the universe when it ends will start anew to create a new universe(as well as the other parallel universes out there) so the universe is part of a cycle that is continualy reborn after it dies.

I Think that the unvierse will not create another seperate universe, but will fall over in an extra-dimensional sence, it will fall into other paralell universes and they will collide becoming one... effectively conserving energy.

Firstly, nobody knows how or why God came into existence. Thats always been a big question, just like “what is the meaning of life?” I don’t think anybody really knows the answer. Personally I have no idea about where God came from or if He’s remotely real or not. I’ve always thought He was, but who knows.
As for the “why” part of the question about Lucifer and Adam And Eve, thats something I’ve heard way too many times before. The thing is, when the Bible was created, it wasn’t meant to be read like a book and taken literally. The part about genesis and Adam and Eve is believed by scholars to be just one big metaphor, or story-not a real event. In the beginning of time there wasn’t a tree bearing fruits that held priceless knowledge or talking snakes. Its all one just one clever story that was written to teach people life lessons. For example, lets take the story of Red Riding Hood. Its sort of believable, but of course we all know its not true. It was a life lesson disguised as a children’s story, the moral/life lesson being not to talk to strangers. (I think)- A lot of the Bible stories are the same way- genesis and a few other tales were written as more of a fable with the intention of being a good moral lesson for us all-
It teaches us listen to our elders (God) and not to trust the words of others we do not know
(the snake)-and, if we choose to disobey said elders, we get punished for it.
I am a Christian and I think that most of the Bible is true, but a lot of stuff in there isn’t really “true” in the sense that it should be taken literally. Most of it is just pure symbolism or fables meant to educate people.
Your idea that God is just sort of sitting back and watching us kill ourselves is actually probable, as depressing as it sounds. I’ve come to think the same way more than once, wondering why doesn't he do something about all the suffering in the world. I’ve been told by a lot of people to “keep the faith” and “The Lord works in mysterious ways” too-and unfortunately that about covers it. Nobody really knows if God is out there or if we’re all just paranoid and falsely believing that God is watching our every move. I guess the only thing to do is just wait until somebody “does” figure it out-I have no ideas. Sorry.

interesting....which particles might these be? and would you happen to have any links with more info?

Subatomic particles. They are non-thinking but their interactions are very unusual. I'll post a link as an edit.

I've read a few of the posts on this forum and just figured I would say what I think. I think about this question of God every day and read all types of religous/spiritual books. Everyone has their own belief and these are some of mine. A lot of people won't agree with me but I'm posting it anyways.

First off I do believe in God, but not as the majority of people do. All religions are, is different group persectives about God. If there is only supposed to be one God, then why are there so many different religions? It's because every group has their own perspective on God. So which perspective is right? Well, none of them are, and all of them are. In other words, I dont think it matters if you follow a religion or not. The important thing is to start following your own beliefs. If your own beleifs start to parallel with some religions, then thats ok. Your truth might not be the same as another persons and sometimes thats hard to accept. What works for you is the goal. And there should be no need to press your beleifs on another person, because if you are comfortable with your beleifs then you shouldnt have sh** to prove to anyone else. In other words be comfortable with what you beleive in and don't get mad if someone doesnt agree.

So what is our purpose on earth? I think the answer is simple, but a lot of you will think my answer is strange cause its not some deep secret, but instead common sense. Why do bad things happen? The same reason that good things do. Because we live in a world that follows these natural laws. We must go by these laws to exist in this world (eating, drinking, staying healthy, etc.) Our purpose on earth is to EXPERIENCE. And that means experience anything. Experience pain, joy, anger, fear, whatever. Without feeling pain, we wouldnt know joy and without joy we wouldnt know pain. You are experiencing different emotions all the time. We are in this physical world to experience, cause if we weren't experiencing anything, then we wouldnt exist in this physical world in the first place.

If you step back and look at things from an inhuman perspective, theres no good nore evil and theres no perfect or imperfect, there just is. We see these two sides of the spectrum (and all in between) because we cant comprehend anything beyond this. We either know something as being good, bad, or inbetween. But I think God goes above all of this. God is the good, the bad, the inbetween the outbetween, the existence and the nonexistence, the spiritual, the religious, the aithiest, etc. I think God is the energy that runs through us, the matter that we are and everything else. This is way too hard to grasp for most people, so I'll just leave it at this for now and wait for some people to critique what I have talked about.

We can philosophise for days about this stuff, which I love to do. But in the end, it comes down accepting the unknown. I can't accept it so I'll probably keep questioning until the day I die.

kasprock I quite agree with most of what you said. Indeed there is no good or evil as these are only a perspective view. Consider human sacrifice we would be horrified at the prospect of this and consider it evil. However take the Celts of ancient Britain they believed in human sacrifice as way of honouring their deity the earth goddess. Even those being sacrificed did not think that the act was evil. They saw it as an honour to be sacrificed as they believed by doing so they will be forever with their goddess helping fight battles against her enemies. I think though not sure they even held games and the winner's prize was to be sacificed. They didnt consider this evil at all but an honour.

Also talking of evil the present day description of lucifer is based on a celtic figure the Horned God. It is believed the Horned God represents sexuality, vitality, the hunt, logic and power. But, he does not exploit his attributes nor will he let them be exploited. He is considered to be gentle, tender and compassionate in a masculine manner. When Christanity came to Britain they used the Horned God to represent the evil of druidic society and gave him a tail and other things.

Yes I am also interested if you can give a link that would be great otherwise off to google I go :

Interesting read like to share.


The question of God's existence has preoccupied man's mind for many centuries. Those who believe in God seem to agree that the limited finite human intelligence cannot prove the existence of the infinite boundless God. It can only illustrate or demonstrate his existence to the satisfaction of the curious human mind. Those who deny God claim to rely on science, philosophy, or special theories of knowledge. Their arguments are sometimes inapplicable, sometimes irrelevant, always complex, and often incomprehensible. However, the developed mind will find its way to Allah. Failure to find the way does not mean that there is no way. Denial of reality does not make it unreal.

As we look around in our environments, we see that every family has a head: every school has a principal, every city or town has a mayor; every province or state has a premier/governor; and every nation has a head of state. Moreover, we know beyond doubt that every beautiful art is the creation of some great artist. All this is obvious, yet it does not satisfy the hunger for knowledge and the curiosity of man about the great things in the world. One often wonders at the beauties of nature with its scenic charm and marvels; the almost endless horizons in the sky and their far-reaching expansions; the ceaseless succession of day and night in the most orderly manner; the course of the sun, the moon, and the great stars; the world of animate and inanimate objects, the continuous process and evolution of man, generation after generation. One often wonders because one would like to know the maker and maintainer of all these things with which we live and which we immensely enjoy. Can we find an explanation of the great universe? Is there any convincing interpretation of the secret of existence? We realise that no family can function properly without a responsible head, that no city can prosperously exist without sound administration, and that no state can survive without a chief of some kind. We also realise that nothing comes into being on its own. Moreover we observe that the universe exists and functions in the most orderly manner, and that it has survived for hundreds of thousands of years. Can we, then, say that all this is accidental and haphazard? Or can we attribute the existence of man and the whole world to mere chance?

If man were to come into being by accident or by sheer chance, his entire life would be based on chance, and his whole existence would be meaningless, and no rational being would leave his existence at the mercy of fluctuating chance. Every reasonable human being tries to make his life as meaningful as possible and set for himself a model of conduct according to some design. Individuals, groups and nations do plan their course of action. And every careful plan produces some desired effects. The fact of the matter is that man does engage in planning of one sort or another, and can appreciate the merits of good planning. Yet man represents only a very small portion of the great universe. And if he can make plans and appreciate the merits of planning, then his own existence and the survival of the universe must also be based on a planned policy. This means that there is a Designing Will behind our material existence, and that there is a Unique Mind in the world to bring things into being and keep them moving in order. The marvellous wonders of our world and the secrets of life are too great to be the product of random accident or mere chance. In the world, then there must be a Great Force in action to keep everything in order.

In the beautiful nature there must be a Great Artist who creates the most charming pieces of art and produces everything for a special purpose in life. This Force is the strongest of all forces, and this Artist is the greatest of all artists. The true believers and deeply enlightened people recognise this Artist and call Him Allah ( His True and Real Name ) or God. They call Him God because He is the Creator and the Chief Architect of the world, the Originator of life and the Provider of all things in existence. He is not a man because no man can create or make another man. He is not an animal, nor is He a plant. He is neither an idol nor is He a statue of any kind because none of these things can make itself or create anything else. He is not a machine. He is neither the sun nor is He the moon or any other star, because these things are controlled by a great system, and are themselves made by someone else. He is different from all these things, because He is the Maker and Keeper of them all. The maker of anything must be different from and greater than the thing which he makes. We also know that nothing can come to life on its own, and that the marvellous world did not create itself or come into existence by accident. The continuous changes in the world prove that it is made and everything which is made must have a maker of some sort. The Maker and Sustainer of the world, the Creator of and Provider for man, the Active Force and Effective Power in nature are all one and the same, and that is known to be Allah or God. This is the secret of all secrets and the Most Supreme of all beings. The Holy Qu'ran, the True Book of God say's:





Once man believes that God exists he must know His attributes and names. Generally speaking every perfection and absolute goodness belong to Him, and no defect or wrong applies to Him. In specific terms, one should know and believe the following:

1. God is only One, has no partner or son, and neither gives birth, nor is He born. He is eternally besought by all and has no beginning or end, and none is equal to Him ( Holy Qu'ran )

2. He is the Merciful and the Compassionate, the Guardian and the True Guide, the Just and the Supreme Lord, the Creator and the Watchful, the First and the Last, the knowing and the Wise, the Hearing, and the Aware, the Witness and the Glorious, the Able and ' the Powerful. ( Holy Qu'ran example )

3. He is the Loving and the Provider, the Generous and the Benevolent, the Rich and the Independent, the Forgiving and the Clement, the Patient and the Appreciative, the unique and the Protector, the Judge and the Peace. ( Holy Qu'ran example )

Each one of these names and attributes of God is mentioned in various places in the Holy Qu'ran. We all enjoy the care and mercy of God Who is so Loving and Kind to His creation. If we try to count His favours upon us, we cannot, because they are countless ( Holy Qu'ran ) God is High and Supreme, but he is very near to the pious thoughtful people; He answers their prayers and helps them. He loves the people who love Him and forgives their sins. He gives them peace and happiness, knowledge and success, life and protection. He welcomes all those who want to be at peace with Him and never rejects any of them. He teaches man to be good, to do the right and to keep away from the wrong. Because He is so Good and Loving. He recommends and accepts only the good and right things. The door of His mercy is always open to any who sincerely seek His support and protection. ( Holy Qu'ran ) The Love of God for His creatures is immense and beyond human imagination. We cannot measure or count His favours. He creates us and takes good care of us, not only from the time of our birth onward, but even long before that. He makes us in the best form of creation and gives us all the senses and faculties that we need for our growth. He helps us when we cannot help ourselves, and provides for us and for our dependents. He creates in man the mind to understand, the soul and conscience to be good and righteous, the feelings and sentiments to be kind and humane. By His mercy we gain true knowledge and see the real light. Because He is Merciful He creates us in the most beautiful shape and provides us with the sun and the moon, the land and the sea, the earth and the skies, the plants and the animals. He is the Creator of all these things and many others for our benefit and use. He makes things that are of service to us in this life, and gives man dignity and intelligence, honour and respect, because man is the best of all created things and is God's viceroy on earth.The mercy O god gives us hope and peace, courage and confidence. It enables us to remedy our griefs and sorrows, to overcome our difficulties and obtain success and happiness. Indeed, the mercy of God relieves the distressed, cheers the afflicted, consoles the sick, strengthens the desperate, and comforts the needy. In short, the mercy of God is active everywhere all the time in every aspect of our lives. Some people may fail to recognise it only because they take it for granted. But it is real and we can feel it with our hearts and appreciate it with our minds.

The Loving Merciful God never forgets us or lets us down or ignores our sincere calls upon Him. By His Mercy and Love He has shown us the Right Way and sent to us messengers and teachers, books and revelations - all are meant for our help and guidance. The last Messenger from God is Muhammad ( SAW ), and the most genuine existing book of Allah is the Qu'ran. From the traditions of Muhammad ( SAW ) and the teachings of the Qu'ran, we learn about the Forgiving God. If a person commits a sin or does something wrong, then he is violating the law of God, committing a grave offence against God and abusing his own dignity and existence. But if he is sincere and wishes to repent, regrets his wrong deeds and wants to return to God, faithfully seeks pardon from God and honestly approaches him, then God will certainly accept him and forgive him. Even those who reject God or his Oneness are assured of forgiveness, should they realise there erroneous attitude and resolve to come back to God. In this connection the Qu'ran say's:



"Say oh my servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not the mercy of God: for God forgives all sins: for he is most forgiving, most merciful. Turn to your Lord ( in repentance ) and submit to him, before the penalty comes on you; after that you shall not be helped. And follow the best of the courses revealed to you from your Lord, before the penalty comes on you on a sudden while you perceive not !" ( Qu'ran )In return for all these great favours and kindness God does not need anything from us, because He is the needless and the independent. He does not ask us to pay him back, for we cannot reward him or value his immeasurable favours and mercy. What He commands us to do, however, is only to be good, to be thankful and to be appreciative, to follow his recommendations and in force his law, to be the proper manifestation of his goodness and excellent attributes, to be his honest agents and true representatives on earth.

He does not want to enslave us because he is the One who grants us dignity and honour. He does not wish to subjugate us, because He is One who is emancipates us from fear and superstitions. He does not desire to humiliate us because He is the One who creates us and exalts our ranks above all other beings. So whatever rules and prescriptions He passes unto us are designed for our own benefit and good. They are meant to help us enjoy our lives with one another in Peace and Kindness, in brotherhood and co-operation. They are destined to make us attain his most pleasant company and adopt the surest approach to Eternal Happiness in life after death.

There are various ways to know God and there are many things to tell about him. The Great wonders and impressive marvels of the world are like open books in which we can read about God. Besides, God Himself comes to our Aid through the many messengers and revelations He has sent down to man. These messengers and revelations tell us everything we need to know about God. So by reflecting on nature, by hearing the words of the messengers, and by reading the Divine revelations we can gain most convincing knowledge about God and find the Straight Path to Him. The aforesaid discussion brings forth the following facts:

1. There is God. He is ONE.

2. He is the creator, sustainer and provider of this universe and there is no partners unto Him.

3. He is the One and the Only One who can guide us in the Right Path in all walks of our life. It is in following His guidance the success and salvation of man, Here and in the Hereafter lies, says the Qu'ran:

http://www.totse.com/en/fringe/fringe_science/quantum.html
Not the one I was looking for, but interesting references.

Even though I'm not muslim, I'll have to agree with everything that Dr. Maakx has just said. Thats a good post. Here's some interesting quotes I found:

"Religion teaches you to follow other peoples beliefs, spirituality teaches you to follow your own"

"A true leader is not the one with the most followers, but one who creates the most leaders"

"When you see the utter perfection in everything-not just those things with which you agree, but those things with which you disagree- you achieve mastery."

"Don't close off the possiblity of new truth because you have been comfortable with an old one. Life begins at the end of your comfort zone"

"People will always believe in hell, and in a God who would send them there, as long as they believe that God is like man- ruthless, self-serving, unforgiving and vengeful"

"All religions should be wiped out, what divides us is an illusion, made up by man and his confusion"

The first three quotes are from Neale Walsch
The last one is from Ziggy Marley

Kilala,It is good for you to question and to try to break out of this state of existence.You have to learn how to evolve and elevate your spirit self to get above this astral and physical form and state that you have been put in. It takes time,maybe many life times,but if you keep seeking you will break out and realise the truth about this universe and these gods who dominate and dictate all.
As you evolve and Awaken,the veil of illusion will be broken.

[size=1]I'm sorry if if this will affend anybody, but, I read these two articles recently and found what I personnaly believe written in black and white. Also, with the use of a brilliant analogy.



"All throughout history, humankind has been forced to bear the legacy of a religious perspective; each religion professing its particular brand of morality and consciousness as being more correct than the others. Yet, despite their pious claims, all religions are conspicuously marked with a history of intellectual oppression, promotion of nonsensical prejudice, fear-based recruitment techniques, and absurd mythological entities to explain everything from our origin to beyond the grave."

"Cocaine, heroine, nicotine...and religion?? It doesn't seem like a likely grouping but if you were to categorize and define something as a 'bad' drug, one might choose, 'an artificial and non-beneficial means of stimulating the brain's pleasure center'. So how exactly does religion fit this definition? Let's create a similar scenario that will highlight this point. Imagine if there was a special group of people that believed a magical rabbit created and ruled the universe, and these people regularly worshipped this mystical rabbit to thank it for their existence; let's call these people, Earians. Now Earians devote Wednesday evenings to gathering in these beautiful and decorative holes in the ground where they perform elaborate rituals such as drinking carrot juice, gently biting other Earians as a show of respect to each other, and wearing huge fake ears. Earians believe that this pleases the magical rabbit entity and, in exchange, the rabbit entity is supposed to provide protection from unknown dangers, and guarantees each Earian an eternal place in the rabbit's hole upon their death. Utter and complete nonsense. And yet, the only difference between this nonsensical Earian faith, and any other faith-based religion on Earth, is the nature of the ethereal entity being worshipped and the structure of the rituals that comprise it. This leads to the ultimatum that the only thing which can make or break the validity of any given faith is the sheer existence of the ethereal entity in the first place. If you take away the ethereal entity, a significant portion of the religious apparatus collapses into meaninglessness, effectively revealing that billions of people have equivalently been wasting a very large portion of their lives in the pursuit of gaining favor with a nonexistent magical bunny."

So what I'm saying to you all is that wake up and smell the roses[i]

I think I'll use that one...

Pure Genius, simplicity, yet perfection. You cant say it better.

I for one believe in God,I think alot of what Dr.maakx said was true I mean just look all around you,there had to be an artist involved,but alot of what Dr.maakx said is muslim, a religion.But even the muslims can be blind,one of the disciples did say religion was not good.So God,whose name is Jehovah(YAHWEH) is my religion,religion seperates people.And I believe in the new testament along with the old testament.
St.john 1:1In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God and the word was God.
St.John 1:10 He was in the world,and the world was made by him,and the world knew him not.
St.john 1:11He came unto his own,and his own received him not.
St.John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh,and dwelt among us.(and we beheld his glory,the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)full of grace and truth.
It's confusing sometimes about certain things in life,but even more confusing when you have no faith.I'm not saying I'm an expert at this because i'm far from it, but i just had to put in my opinion.I don't hate people's religion I'm just glad they are trying to know God.That's between them and God.The Bible is an awesome book to read it was inspired by God,and that's where faith steps in, to believe in it.Everyone does have a choice to be good or evil, like the choice he gave to the angels.So it's all on you to choose your path.I am a non-denomination Christian,because i believe in Jesus .And i'm sure i'll be critisized for this,but whatever..this is only my opinion.But hey thanks for your time in reading it.

I am...kind of confused by what you just said. What religion are you exactly, and what is the book of St. John? Do you mean the book of John?

I am non-denomination,thats no religion.But I am Christian because i follow Jesus Christ and his Word. St.John is after Luke in the bible.(The Gospel According to St.John.) Then there's I John after Peter's scriptures.(The Epistle General of John.)

geez,

allah is a name men have made for god. something as unfathomable as god does not require a name. a name is something man developed, a handle for identification. basing a religious argument on a "name" is weak one. many things that are considered relevent are considered relevant only in a human sense. now take the human factor out and what you have is a mystery that only spiritual openess and meditation can even approach. for the answers we might gain, could be incomprehensible. i always say that if know the mind of god, then he has no power over us, for we are god. and that is of course poppycock. but im pretty sure that my dog thinks i am god. hmmmmm...............that brings up a very deep thought.

There is no God.

Is this just a personal opinion or is this from experience?

I'm afraid it's fact.

Would you care to elaborate on it?
I know you believe in reincarnation, etc. What is your definition of God?

Yes, I do believe in reincarnation and many other things, but I believe them to be a result of the earth in which we live, and possibly even extraterrestrial influences/control.

I don't have all the answers by any means, but the way I look at it, if there was a God, then he wouldn't let babies get raped and murdered all the time.

That's it? God created evil by his own admission. Just because he "lets" babies get raped doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Perhaps the Christian paradigm of God does not exist. And he is very different than we think. Perhaps bad things happen, because he wants us to learn lessons. Then again, perhaps not.

I hardly think that sacrificing your 'beloved' children is just in teaching us lessons.

That's a very narrow perspective on what I said. If your child is sacrificed, a lot of things may be experienced: grief, etc. Hardships mean people have to overcome things. If you live an easy life, how are you progressing? How are you learning anything? Does it not make sense that God may be a synthesis? There is no good without evil. So God created evil (and it says this in Isaiah). What I'm trying to say is perhaps he created evil to test if you were worthy of his kingdom, to overcome obstacles.
I don't believe that, but it could be a possibility. Just because a child dies does not mean God does not exist. You have to think outside the box, and even outside the Christian paradigm.

I agree. A lot of times when people think of God they automatically think within the Christian paradigm. And a lot of times people that grew up around extreamly religous Christians get so annoyed about someone telling them what to believe in that they become athiests. This isn't with all people, but it seems like a good amount of athiests are athiests cause Christianity pissed them off.

We have proof that large creatures in the form of dinosaurs roamed the Earth because of fossils that include insects, birds, and little creatures before man was on earth. I don't understand how the Bible can omit so much history as there are no references to dinosaurs.
I don't believe that evolution has occurred either, how do we account for the diverse forms of life that exist on Earth today?
Extreme example, wouldn't the all the parts of the digestive system have to evolve at the same time to be able to be effective and support life?
How complex is the eye?
Simple stuff....If you were a caveman, would you be able to work out how to make fire? - even after watching Ray Mears!
To me it doesn't add up...anyone else think the same?

Good point. Dinosaurs aren't mentioned because they were before the time of Adam. Sounds strange, I know...but I've read stranger ideas on these forums. There are actually a few books out there that discuss this. It's called the "Pre-Adamite World"

Our world began at the time of Adam when the earth we know was created. Biblical chronology places theis about 6000 years ago. There are several references in the Bible that hint at a world before ours.

The Bible does say that this world will be destroyed by fire and then a new world will be formed....a Heaven on Earth, if you will. If this is going to happen...who's to say it hasn't happened before. World's destroyed...to create a Heaven on earth. Which was what it was supposed to be until the fall of Man in the Garden of Eden.

Good that you pointed that out. Adam and Eve have also been viewed as a symbol for the beginning of a tribe of people, amongst other things.

Somebody always told me that the bible did mention dinosaur-like creaters. I just never sat down and checked it out.

I think the idea of evolution is a good one, and micro-evolution has been proven. For example, darwins finches on the Galapagos Islands were proven to all evolve from the same species of bird. But thats a bird evolving into a different species of a bird. Macro-evolution on the other hand is no where near being proven (like from a single celled organism to a human being). Something is missing in the puzzle that we havn't figured out yet. It blows the mind to think that somehow natural selection forced a single celled organism to evolve into a human being, or bird, or whatever. Somethings defenitely missing. The question is what?