Perhaps they built the explosives into the original construction?


Bit of a gamble though - what if someone had seen them?

Oh, but of course, they were invisible. Probably using alien technology from Roswell or summat.



Perhaps a more serious question to be asking is: are not such conspiracy theories really aimed at diverting attention from the truth? (Like when a nuclear bomb gets accidently dropped - cover it up by suggesting it was an alien UFO.... something which can't be proved but which people will readily believe)

What's really being hidden? Apart from an almighty c***-up?

LMAO.
Good post.

Marvin Bush (Shrub's brother) heading up the security firm for the WTC, Dulles Airport and United Airlines - all integral parts of 9/11. Just an amazing coincidence, right? If you like to delude yourself into believing "invisible aliens" would be needed to plant explosives when the security people are led by another Bush, just go right ahead!

What's realy being hidden? The Pentagon videos taken from Citgo gas station and Sheraton hotel, the entire flight recordings (ATC tapes), the black box recordings, the WTC steel (scrapped), the fact 7 of the 19 fabled "hijackers" are alive and living (but aren't actually "hijackers"), the identities of the people who gained millions through insider trading prior to 9/11, the airport security videos to show these alleged "hijackers", the 4 passenger manifests for the 4 flights, the "reconstructed" wreckage of Flt. 77 from the Pentagon....

I could go on for an hour adding to this list. But you just go on thinking none of this is being "hidden" from the public!

Explosives bringing the wtc buildings down is completely likely. explosives bring down buildings in a similar manner on a regular basis. A "pancake" theroy that has never happened anywhere else ever seems so much less likely.
the truth is that the "pancake" scenario is a wild theroy and controlled demolition every day fact.
I'll go with the most rational explanation and at this point its obviously controlled demolition.

Youre on the money man. If you string togeather the coincidences and freak events the official story presents, you end up with a story so rediculous its amazing anyone believes it.

do debunkers even touch fact that several of the hijackers are still alive??

Thanks, jiimbro, and welcome to UM!

As for the 7 very alive people the FBI still insists were hijackers, and would very much appreciate if everyone would just go along with the story anyway, or at least stop talking about them?

Well, even the Bush believers can't BS their way out of that one!

Hey thanks man! Im in a similar debate with some hardcore debunkers, could use your help at http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=34746&page=2

It's been my experience that it's pointless to debate the 100% true kook believers. Typically the 9-11 Conspirators will deny everything you say. Because their scape goat is; "Thats what the government wants you to believe" - as though saying that makes their claim true.

The most infuriating thing is that we have to deal with people who think that if the US Govt says something it is automatically a lie but that if someone Anti-US says something it is automatically the truth.

I can only think of 2 explanations...

The engineers are not smart enough to see the "obvious", or the engineers are part of the "conspiracy".(Including engineers in other countries not entirely sypathetic to the United States.)

...I see absolutely no evidence for either of those explanations...

That the "official" 9/11 story is a lie is something that anyone with even a modicum of common sense can come to understand. You don't need any type of special degree, such as in physics, or engineering, or architecture.

There is no need, if you choose, to get caught up into a quagmire of debates with an assortment of self-important obfuscators and pseudo and quasi "experts" who claim they, and not you, are the only ones truly qualified to assert what did or didn't really happen on 9/11.

There is one absolutely solid, confirmed fact about 9/11 that the people who support the official story are never able to dispute. No matter how they put a spin on it, no matter how much they ignore it, and no matter how much they wish everybody would forget about it.

ALL YOU NEED TO DEBUNK THE BUSH BELIEVERS IS TO SHOW THEM ONE OF THE CORNERSTONE FOUNDATIONS OF THE "OFFICIAL STORY" OF 9/11 IS A MONUMENTAL LIE AND FABRICATION. (Most of us are well aware of it, but it's always worth mentioning again, because it's a fact that is so important):

The 9/11 Commission Final Report is the Government's "final word" on 9/11. The report is a factual account of all events relevantly related to 9/11, they assert. But the claim is a lie from the start. Because they begin with the blatant falsehood that the 19 "hijackers" as listed by the FBI were the absolutely proven individuals who committed the attacks on 9/11.

BZZT! I'm very sorry, "official" story believers and wishers. That is the wrong answer. You lose all your money and unfortunately will not participate in Final Jeopardy!

The absolutely undeniable fact is, at least 7 of the 19 they claim are "hijackers" are NOT hijackers. Not on 9/11, at the very least , because they are still very much alive and well right now.

Simple little fact - but it results in the total collapse of the "official" story.

Millions of people around the world, many in non-friendly countries, watched all this happen. Millions of people saw the second plane fly into the building. Millions of people watched the collapses. Millions of people watched the recovery efforts all that day, and into the days after. Gods know I did. Now. Of those millions of people, quite a lot of them were in positions of knowledge about one or more aspects of architecture, building failure, or even demolition.

If it were all as implausible as you seem to believe, hundreds of thousands of people--at a bare minimum--would be saying so, and they'd be making a lot of noise. After all, a lot of 'em don't live in the US, so the US government (or whoever) couldn't possibly silence all of them. And just as the Internet allows proliferation of every crackpot conspiracy theory to come down the pike, of which this is very high on the list, it allows all these people who would know and live outside the US a method of getting that information out. And they don't.

You see, this is where woo-woo theories always seem to fall down. They assume that science, in this case engineering, is in the hands of a few elite that can be controlled by The Government (as if there were only one!). However, science is a thing that transcends borders, and the knowledge of foul play would spread all over,specially the internet.
And no,Im not talking about sites that deals with Bigfoot,aliens and ghosts.



Think about it.

Running poll on rebuttals to the fact that 7 were not hijackers...

Ignored: 1

That's just what they want you to believe........

Umm Hello!!?!?!?!?!?! People by the MILLIONS ARE MAKING NOISE alot of noise. It was a Frenchman who first asked WHERES THE BOING. A retired military expert on demolition put his credibility on the line to speak against the official story, for this and the oaklahoma bombing which was a vey similar conspiracy. The very situation you say would be happening if a CT were the case IS happeningYoure argument doesnt even apply to this discussion becuase you are talking about "woo-woo" theories. Hazzard, Why dont you tell us why 7 hijackers are still alive? or is that a "woo-woo" question too?

When one of the towers was bombed in 1991 (was it?), you couldn't put conspiracy theories to that because it was so downright terrorist and simple- drive a van into the parking lot and walk out alive. Easy.

But when you think about how it is to have conspiracy theories about what happened on September 11th 01> it's just >

effing ridiculous. Why is it so hard to get your head out of your ars, and look at what happened and just finish it > put it to closure> and accept it. It was done, and it probably will never happen again like that. It's a one in a million shot.

The hijackers used box cutters. How sophisticated. "Oh that > ( as the security sweeps you for weapons) oh I'm a uhhhhhhh, I work in a factory." O.k move on....

it was 1993 actually and the FBI was caught red handed orchestrating it--they paid a retired egyptian officer a MILLION DOLLARS to purchase materials and hire thugs(or in this case "retards") willing to carry it out--it was proposed to ahmed as a "sting" operation but when the fbi ordered him to allow it to go forward with live explosives instead of switching the explosives for a fake dummy device as the original plan called for the ex-airforce officer began tape recording the fbi agents ordering him to do it--it was documented and is undeniable--how do you feel about 9/11 now??
***********************************************************************
The FBI allowed the 1993
WTC bombing to happen
***********************************
THE NEW YORK TIMES

* * * * *

Thursday October 28, 1993 Page A1

"Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart
Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast"

By Ralph Blumenthal

Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building
a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center,
and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting
harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after
the blast.

The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb
and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by
an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer,
Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said.

The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of
hours of tape recordings that Mr. Salem secretly made of his
talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as
being in a far better position than previously known to foil
the February 26th bombing of New York City's tallest towers.

The explosion left six people dead, more than a thousand people
injured, and damages in excess of half-a-billion dollars.
Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court
[on charges of involvement] in that attack.

Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer, was used
by the Government [of the United States] to penetrate a circle
of Muslim extremists who are now charged in two bombing cases:
the World Trade Center attack, and a foiled plot to destroy
the United Nations, the Hudson River tunnels, and other
New York City landmarks. He is the crucial witness in the
second bombing case, but his work for the Government was
erratic, and for months before the World Trade Center blast,
he was feuding with th F.B.I.

Supervisor `Messed It Up'

After the bombing, he resumed his undercover work. In an
undated transcript of a conversation from that period,
Mr. Salem recounts a talk he had had earlier with an agent
about an unnamed F.B.I. supervisor who, he said,

"came and messed it up."
"He requested to meet me in the hotel,"

Mr. Salem says of the supervisor.

"He requested to make me to testify, and if he didn't
push for that, we'll be going building the bomb with
a phony powder, and grabbing the people who was
involved in it. But since you, we didn't do that."

The transcript quotes Mr. Salem as saying that he wanted to
complain to F.B.I. Headquarters in Washington about the
Bureau's failure to stop the bombing, but was dissuaded by
an agent identified as John Anticev.

Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev had told him,

"He said, I don't think that the New York people would
like the things out of the New York Office to go to
Washington, D.C."

Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute
Mr. Salem's account, but rather, appears to agree with it,
saying of the `New York people':

"Well, of course not, because they don't want to
get their butts chewed."
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtcbomb.html

Part of the allure of conspiracies seems to be the excitement of believing something that few other people believe. It´s a way of saying, "I´m different."
We can go beyond that and speculate that they think their beliefs are not only different but also better.
It´s not necessarily that there are so many kooks out there.
It may be that the kooks are the ones who feel soo strongly about their beliefs that they have to share them. Some of them would say and do anything to remain special,different and smarter than all the experts.

But simply the difference is enough to worry about here.
After all what good is being different if no one notices?



Are you telling us that 7 of the extremists on the planes that crashed and exploded survived.

we can't prove that they WERE on the planes. how can you use what is being contested as proof that the constestants are wrong?

No, no im not saying that because thats reiculous. Im saying that they were obviously not on the planes in the first place.
Can you uderstand that?
FACT: 7 OF THE HIJACKERS ARE ALIVE TODAY
The official story is waaaaaay off. Thats not even a conspiracy theroy, its just a point of fact.
Debunker please explain why they are alive.

Holy $H!+ balls, I have done some research into the 9/11 conspiracy debunker movement recently including the site Sunofone went to, and the steel circle website.

I found this site,

http://www.911myths.com/index.html

What a complete joke. They say, they don't know what happened, but using there common sense they have come to the conclusion that the official story is the correct one. Why because the government says so. The government wouldn't hurt us or lie to us, of course not, that's why occam's razor says it must have been the A-Rabs.

Then look at this site where they talk about the WTC 7.

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7___silverstein.html

They say, Silverstein probably doesn't know the terminology to say pull it, so pull it must mean pull the firefighters out so the building could collapse. Here's when my conspiracy thinking comes in. Maybe the FBI said, we are here to take over this jurisdiction, get all FDNY firefighters out, so we can pull the building and get rid of the evidence. Know your place shut your face. It's for your own good.

Well,if those guys never were on any of the planes why do you call them hijackers.
And the reason they are still alive is obvious,to me anyway,its a simple case of mistaken identity.

Then the FBI has to show the evidence for their claims. They have not released the actual passenger manifests for the 4 flights. What names did the "hijackers" use to board the planes? Were they even listed on the manifests at all? Why don't they show the airport security videos showing all 19 "hijackers" checking in to board these flights? Do these videos even exist?

You may obligingly take their word for it without having to show any evidence. I and many others don't. For those here who have no problem with this, let me ask you this:

The police arrest you for the murder of a woman in a grocery store. They say they have evidence that will prove your guilt. The evidence they claim to have is a security video from the store showing you committing the murder, and your signature on your credit card receipt for a purchase just prior to the murder.

But they cannot show the evidence to the court. They mumble and make up one excuse after another. But they ask the judge and jury to take their word for it. And so the judge and jury accept the prosecutor's claims that the evidence they can't see is genuine. You are sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder.

Still content with this unique form of "justice"?

Evolutionary psychology.
Paranoid tendencies are associated with an animal's ability to recognize danger. Higher animals attempt to construct mental models of the thought processes of both rivals and predators in order to read their hidden intentions and to predict their future behavior.

Such an ability is extremely valuable in sensing and avoiding danger in an animal community. If this danger-sensing ability should begin making false predictions, or be triggered by benign evidence, or otherwise become pathological, the result is paranoid delusions.

A conspiracy theorist sees danger everywhere, and may simply be the victim of a malfunction in a valuable and evolutionarily-old natural ability.

Talk about over the top!
I know lets just believe everything we're told and question nothing.
Shhh,building 7 collapsed neatly because a few litres of diesal were being stored there. Passports,credit cards etc miraculously found in mint condition of flight passengers in the melten rubble of the towers because of the pixies.I should keep on telling myself this when im feeling paranoid and delusional.

Our governments never lie to us......ahhh that feels better.All warm and cosy inside.

Overkill,maybe,but the psychology behind a conspiracy theorists or a hoax believers thought process is interesting to say the least.

They're alive because they weren't on the aircraft. Which means the Govt made a balls up.

Now, if I were going to organise a conspiracy of this nature, I'd make damned sure that whoever I claimed was on the aircraft didn't suddenly pop up live and well a few weeks later.

So, either there is no conspiracy (other than in trying to cover up various levels of incompetence) or the conspiracy was organised by a spotty faced 16 year old on work experience at the CIA, during his coffee break, whilst he was fantasising about Christina Aguillira......

although i am by no means taking the side of CTs i have to say the majority of their points have simply been rebuffed as being backed up by "psuedo scientists" or indeed resorting to name calling ("woo woos").
having just taken nearly two hours reading this whole debate and checking most of the links i have to say it seems unfair to refer to professors, fire marshalls and the like as psuedo scientists etc, surely the 7 years + of university education required qulifies a professor as a legitimate scientist?
This having been said both sides of this argument have serious flaws in their presentation thus far, probably due to the lack of time it seems some posting on here have taken to consider other's POV

In the end, PM were able to debunk each of the CT assertions with hard evidence and a healthy dose of common sense. They learned that a few theories are based on something as innocent as a reporting error on that chaotic day. Others are the byproducts of cynical imaginations that aim to inject suspicion and animosity into public debate. Only by confronting such poisonous claims with irrefutable facts can we understand what really happened on a day that is forever seared into world history.

The widely accepted account that hijackers commandeered and crashed the four 9/11 planes is supported by reams of evidence, from cockpit recordings to forensics to the fact that crews and passengers never returned home.

keep slinging the propaganda hazzard no one is listening-- how about a link to your so called cockpit recordings? how about a link to the alledged reams of evidence?-- and propaganda mechanics has never done anything except offer opinions and inuendo so quite hanging by their cuffs and do your own research for once--

Do we really need to keep pointing out all the lies, omissions and mistakes the PM article made? One link that details the folly of the PM article.... http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/

Sun,I see you got your butt handed to you by ktesibios on BAUT. "loss of transpondance above the atlantic"-- You guys just dont have a clue do you.

So far your claims are nothing more than a "parroting" of CT websites
and using names to insult National Geographic sure sounds funny coming from you.

Long story short, foriegn hijackers took our comercial planes and crashed them into the towers which then burned until the steel softened enough to cause the floors above the fires to collapse onto the floors below causing the whole thing to collapse straight down into a pile of rubble. Now do you have anything that contradicts any of this or just more speculation and what ifs?

Look at my attachment, see no pods.

Further proof that any whack job, myself included, can take a picture of an airplane and say "look what I found under the wing". (In the case of this pic, my g/f was the whack job responcible, I was just coming home).

Just because someone is sporting a picture doesn't mean that it's the plane in question or that the photo hasn't been doctored.

if you consider agitation and diversion a worthy technique perhaps but the truth is he has avoided commenting on 95% of the facts presented to him-- focusing on a mistake i made about where it occurred instead of admitting that there was more than half an hour where hey had no clue as to where flight77 went and that the scope siganl picked up 36 min later could have been anything-- theres talk of it being "just" the controlers that were unaware of the location and all i have to say about this is... where is the proof?

Diverting is not what he was doing,he pointed out,clearly,to everyone,many flaws in your claims.
You even retracted some of them your self, "flight over the Atlantic".

None of the hijacked planes' flight paths pass over the Atlantic, nor, if you read the report, is there any indication that any of the planes were over the ocean when their transponder signals were lost.
You dont have a credible source for your claim, you are just repeating rumors from some CT Web site.

Given the myriad of evidence nothing will change the fact that AQ was behind this attack.
The more radical activists and researchers in the 9/11 movement maintain that the attacks were engineered by elements of the US secret services or others, and not by Muslims at all.

This 9/11 movement is informal, decentralized and fractious; its members convene mainly by list-serves and occasional public conferences. Nonetheless, the corpus of evidence employed by authors of 9/11 CT exposés is created largely by the little-known radical activists, bloggers, researchers and sympathizers of this movement, working on the Internet all over the world.You have been recruited to their despicable movement wether you know it or not.

Hazzard,

Here is my opinion. You seem to have blinders on, or tunnel vision. You are stuck with the idea that fires alone brought down all three buildings. You refuse to even contemplate any other possibility. Why because your infallible government told you so.

This is understandable since it’s dangerous to go against what the government claims. No matter how credible you are to begin with, once you speak out, and say the government is lying, you are labeled a conspiracy theorist by people who simply don’t know any better. You do this all the time. Anytime anyone no matter how credible comes out against the official story, you label them a wacko woo woo, and immediately dismiss everything presented. Why is this the case?




Some great quotes from President Nixon were in my local news paper, the Wisconsin State Journal November 17, 2005 in the article titled ‘Nixon’s deceptive ways revealed in documents’ on page A3

The first paragraph says



This same thing is happening in the Bush dictatorship today. Secrecy is the word of the day in the White house everyday, as well as the three D’s: Deny, Deny, Deny.

You need to stop being so trustworthy, and start being skeptical of your public servants. They call themselves your leaders, but they are there to serve you.

akira mentioned watching the show and stating that it described the interceptor jets being over the atlantic at the time the signal was picked up so i must have confused the two but the "fact" i was refering to was that transpondance was "lost" so clearly other than this err on my part concerning the location of flt77 when its transpondance was lost-- but again the fact i was refering to was that it "was" lost and there is no proof you can offer to back the govt claim that the computers had never lost the signal only the air control--clearly the evidence from the commission demonstrates the utter confusion and complete loss of flt 77 for over haldf an hour-- your lucky they banned me over there for no reason and without a lift cause i surely would have pointed it out to everybody-- obviously no one wanted to address my posts-- and i challenge you to go back and bring those alledged "flaws" over here--because other than my confusion of the location and (whoevers) confusion on the stress of the word fact there was nothing anybody wanted to debate

Well I guess it's been decided. 9/11 was an inside job and anyone who believes Bush is a Grade A Woo Woo.

Not just fire. Engineers and other experts,quickly came to understand how hurtling airplanes and burning jet fuel had helped bring down the main towers.With the collapse of both towers by 10:30 a.m., larger pieces of the twin towers had smashed parts of 7 World Trade and set whole clusters of floors ablaze. An hour later, the Fire Department was forced to abandon its last efforts to save the building as it burned like a giant torch.



There are alot of other possible senarios,but all the CT are just to silly to even consider



No governmet is infallible.

WTC 7 "burned like a giant torch"?

something like that would be more akin to a "giant torch"

but oh yeah, that building didn't collapse. WTC 7 managed to collapse in a symetrical fashion. tell me something illogical is going on?

I must be a grade a woo woo. There is just not enough hard evidence, that can be verified, that there was a conspiracy.

I have been looking with no joy for some links for any video footage of documentaries arguing the case for and against the 911 conspiracy the reason i am asking is i'm Dislecsic i've heard audio before but no video i just want to see both sides of the story thanks for anyone who arrives

Just a quick Question,

I've been looking at Google Earth and noticed there is a big gap where WTC 7 was.

I went to NYC in Jan-Feb 2005 and took some pics of GZ.

Looking back at them I can't see where WTC fitted in (have the Verizon and Post Office been pulled down?

All I can see are 3 buildings (on my pic) one looks like the Verizon building (shapewise) same for the Post Office)

Have they built a new building on the ground where WTC 7 stood?


My pics are here: http://www.toypaj.com/gallery/sp_index.php...0Jan-Feb%202005

The WTC Site images start here: toypaj WTC Pics Start Here

Thanks

toypaj

Lets think about this.

How many people would have to be in on an operation like this? Hundreds at the very least I would think.

How many people have came out to say something like this conspiracy "theory" happened? None that I know of.

How bad do democrats hate President Bush and to what lengths would they go to expose the president, or even anyone he has the remotest of ties to? They would do anything to get him and go to any lengths. If a democrat were in office republicans would do the same.

How many politicians have even expressed a suspicion? None that i know of.

In this day when EVERYTHING gets leaked surely to God someone would have come out about something like this. This "theory" is rediculous, and not because of anything I've said, but because of the facts such as the ones on the 1st post of this thread.

It does sound crazy doesn't it?

I thought so to when I heard about it three years ago. Since then I have devoted my time to finding out what really happened. It really had to have been an inside job to some extent, because the official story has already been proven impossible.

Why have you not heard about this or anyone come forward with evidence or seen any evidence period. You can thank you government controled media for that one. They censor and filter out any info relating to 9/11. Hundreds of people have come forward including government whistle blowers, but again if you rely on the mainstream news to inform you of what you need to know, you will never find out. Your only option of getting the truth is on the internet which is not yet controlled, and filtered. Sure you have to filter through the disinfo, but you can decide what you learn instead of the mainstream news deciding what you get to learn.

You can go ahead and try to prove me wrong, I dare you, you will only find out for yourself that I'm right. Unless of course you simply refuse to look at the evidence because you don't want to believe it was an inside job. Go back to watching sports.

The burden of proof isnt on me, its on you if you want anyone to believe it. So go ahead, prove it, I dare you.

The proof is all around,look for it.Or do you believe buildings fall for no reason(building 7),Passports of the terrorists can be miraculously found unharmed in the rubble,Norad standing down,impossible flight manouvres,coincidental drills of the attacks on 911(and 7/7),invisable wreckage at the Pentagon,free fall demolition style of the towers,witnesses to flight 93 being blown up,impossible phone calls from the planes,etc,etc,etc.

in greece summer of 2005 there was a plane that had a problem and was out of course, i think iam not really sure. the point is that the greek military shot down the plane (so you know that was not in the news that it was shot down)

so now you guys are telling me that the american military sucks? like they can not find a airplane? or they can not shot it down. i hope that the american military is better than the one in greece !!!
i think something fishy smells here

so there are two options, first one that the american military really sucks !!!

or

there was a conspiracy which leads to 9/11

iam going with the second one

cu guys have a nice day

if it wasnt in the news, how do you know about it?

common sense. the plane was out of course.

i do not trust the news as much. do you seriously think that the news are 100% truth?

I already have on multiple past posts. Go and look for them. I'm not going to repeat myself for every new person that come on this forum. Besides even if you find out, what will you do? Alert the media?

This is bigger then you can comprehend. Stick you head back in the sand, America is already dead.