Popular Mechanics examines the evidence and consults the experts to refute the most persistent conspiracy theories of September 11.
Published in the March, 2005 issue.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=1&c=y

The planes
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=2&c=y

No Stand-Down Order
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=3&c=y

THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=4&c=y

Seismic Spikes
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=5&c=y

The collapse of both World Trade Center towers--and the smaller WTC 7
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=4&c=y

THE PENTAGON
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=6&c=y

FLIGHT 93
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=7&c=y

Indian Lake
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=8&c=y

PM consulted more than 300 experts and organizations in its investigation into 9/11 conspiracy theories. The following were particularly helpful.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=9&c=y

The very thought that our government could pull this incredibly complex, convoluted, and supremely risky hoax off, fooling a vast cadre of experts world-wide, yet ineptly unable to pull the wool over the eyes of a few ideologues on some fringe web sites is just ludicrous.

But then again, inconsistencies are the foundation of these sorts of conspiracy theorys.
The HB's create them because they don't understand the details, then they project them onto "the establishment" as proof, implying that the "masterminds" of these events were somehow so inept in the execution of "their plan" that anyone could see right through it.

You are aware that this has all been posted before, right?

You are also aware that the hardcore conspiracy theorists don't wanna look at facts, right?

Oh, well. Keep fighting the good fight. I'll be standing right beside you... trying to get people to use a little bit of factual evidence rather than conjecture.

Excellent articles of pure FACt although the theorist dont deal in facts. Good find!

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
Popular Mechanics examines the evidence and consults the experts to refute the most persistent conspiracy theories of September 11.
Published in the March, 2005 issue.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=1&c=y

The planes
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=2&c=y
[/quote]

heres what this link claims--

[quote]THE PLANES
The widely accepted account that hijackers commandeered and crashed the four 9/11 planes is supported by reams of evidence, from cockpit recordings to forensics to the fact that crews and passengers never returned home[/quote]

now where are the cockpit recordings?answer:they are taking the govts word--then they say that the crew never returned home--how does this proove it was muslim fundamentalists?then later in the same paragraph they admit to a lack of military intervention

[quote]And the lack of military intervention?[/quote]

then they follow with a bleeding heart story of how the faa had to manually "dial" the pentagon NEVER commenting on the pentagon and the biggest failure far outside the parameters of standard operating procedure

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
No Stand-Down Order
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=3&c=y
[/quote]

same location as above and they explain nothing beyond fl11

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=4&c=y
[/quote]

[quote]THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
The collapse of both World Trade Center towers--and the smaller WTC 7 a few hours later--initially surprised even some experts. But subsequent studies have shown that the WTC's structural integrity was destroyed by intense fire as well as the severe damage inflicted by the planes.[/quote]

this is the worst explanation of them all--anyone that watches bldg7 collapse and still believes its fire is mentally deficient--this has been torn to shreds by the truth movement

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
Seismic Spikes
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=5&c=y
[/quote]

all one has to do here is actually look at the graphs they claim are the same yet its plainly obvious that the second is missing information the first one clearly shows or is completely different altogether

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
The collapse of both World Trade Center towers--and the smaller WTC 7
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=4&c=y
[/quote]

nothing here but a repeat of above--essentially a double post obviously to puff up this ridiculous thread

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
THE PENTAGON
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=6&c=y
[/quote]

nothing here but the flailing of straw--they avoid the queston of "why" the pentagon was struck and jump right into debunking their control valve straw men in the missle lies

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
FLIGHT 93
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=7&c=y
[/quote]

ok heres their evidence--

[quote]FLIGHT 93
Cockpit recordings indicate the passengers on United Airlines Flight 93 teamed up to attack their hijackers, forcing down the plane near Shanksville[/quote]

again here they are taking the govts word as they have never heard what they claim exists--reason enough to laugh at this whole article

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
Indian Lake
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=8&c=y
[/quote]

[quote]FACT: Wallace Miller, Somerset County coroner, tells PM no body parts were found in Indian Lake. Human remains were confined to a 70-acre area directly surrounding the crash site. Paper and tiny scraps of sheetmetal, however, did land in the lake.[/quote]

their answer is full of holes--right here they admit to debris being over 6miles away in a lake

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
PM consulted more than 300 experts and organizations in its investigation into 9/11 conspiracy theories. The following were particularly helpful.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=9&c=y
[/quote]

yet they link none of the experts to the claims in the article only that they were consulted during the investigation after which CHERTOFF'S cousin formulated his own speculation

[quote]'DEBUNKER' date='Oct 19 2005, 07:39 AM' post='893524'
The very thought that our government could pull this incredibly complex, convoluted, and supremely risky hoax off, fooling a vast cadre of experts world-wide, yet ineptly unable to pull the wool over the eyes of a few ideologues on some fringe web sites is just ludicrous.

But then again, inconsistencies are the foundation of these sorts of conspiracy theorys.
The HB's create them because they don't understand the details, then they project them onto "the establishment" as proof, implying that the "masterminds" of these events were somehow so inept in the execution of "their plan" that any uneducated fool could see right through it. [/quote]


link

I've deleted several posts that were nothing but bickering. Please remain civil or we'll have to close this thread down.

I find the PM articles (which I read all through) to be factual to explain everything. I also found (if read) that hundreds were used to research this. During this reading PM shows where theorist used misquotes and distortion to further their point. PM did an excellent job of proving or in thiws case debunking the conspiracy theory. Well done PM

Sunofone,

You ask Panther to come up with something substantial. I would say that the ball is in your court to come up with something substantial...Popular Mechanics has already done the work for panther. I read your post and at least tried to make sense of it. Your logic seems to be that 'since you can't disprove me, I must be correct...' You stated nothing more than baseless 'facts', extreme paranoia (in that you don't believe any experts-like the guy who had to shift through the pentagon wreckage with all of the civiian body parts-) and empty conjecture. To believe that something so very elaberate and barbaric could be planned and then kept quiet by so many people is absolutly absurd. Score one for reason, you lost this one....

SURE!!!!! and the parts debri in the lake 6 miles away really were the result of a collision between flt 93 and the ground

PM covered that. 1.5 miles, not 6. Read the articles. (See what I mean? You don't even trust the friggin map...) Besides, Is that all you got??? The lake?? You'll have to do much better than that..

ok 1.5 miles--well ive got news for you that is way outside the alledged 70 acre debri field which is in itself a ridiculous figure as a commercial jet plowing into dirt is not going to create a debri field 1.5 in any direction

the reason they link none of the experts names to the claims is that people r sick of being mis-quoted and having there story twisted.


the reason they link none of the experts names to the claims is that people r sick of being mis-quoted and having there story twisted.

A direct quote from the articles:
"Indian Lake is less than 1.5 miles southeast of the impact crater--not 6 miles--easily within range of debris blasted skyward by the heat of the explosion from the crash. And the wind that day was northwesterly, at 9 to 12 mph, which means it was blowing from the northwest--toward Indian Lake."

What does it take to get you to see that you have the wrong info on this. I (and most people with half a brain) would believe a well researched article published by a well established monthly...methinks you insane. Blogging with you is truely 'beating a dead horse'. I'm moving on...

Sunofones "claims"and "evidence" has been blown out of the water so many times I have lost count.
The problem with "smart people" is that they like to be right and sometimes will defend bad ideas to the death rather than admit they are wrong.


Sorry Sunofone,but I think Ill stick with the 300 experts on this one.

i love it you guys are so twisted in your facts that instead of backing them up you would rather focus on my error concerning the distance of the lake--how does this explain debri 1.5 miles away?!?!--this bush/cheney impeachment is going to be sooo much fun!!!

I'd reply, but your obviously too dumb to learn...I'm outta here...

scraping the bu****it off the truth--
****************************************************************
by Sherman H. Skolnick, co-host
posted 10/17/05
ARAB OIL BANKERS SET TO EXPOSE 9-11 IN REFCO GRAB

In the process of seizing control of a portion of Refco, banker-sheiks of the Persian Gulf are in a position to expose those greatly enriched as a result of prior knowledge of the 9-11 episode. Some suspect it gives the oil-soaked Arabs an unmistakable edge in grabbing hold of Refco, the world-wide money empire run largely by Jews deemed by some as traitors to their tribe.

Among those ostensibly hugely profiting from foreknowledge of the September 11, 2001 violence on U.S. soil falsely blamed on "Moslems", are the following. This, according reportedly to digital data, retrieved by secretive European electronic wizards, and for a price made available, to those puffing themselves up as the latter day supposed Lords of Petroleum.

===Wasserstein & Perella, exceptionally clever money crooks acting through Refco and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange and through Red Chinese jointly with Israeli speculators. With insider knowledge of at least partly what was to occur, they apparently made prior data known to Zim Shipping, an Israeli firm that supposedly broke their lease and moved out, ahead of 9-11, from one of the doomed Twin Towers, both later collapsed by internal explosives, of the New York World Trade Center.

A Chicago Managing Director of Wasserstein & Perella was Rahm Emanuel, formerly top advisor in the Clinton White House who bragged on TV that he had a desk the closest to the Oval Office. Using his own vast illicit-gotten funds for electioneering, Rahm took over the Congressional District of convicted swindler, defrocked Congressman Daniel Rostenkowski long tied to the Chicago markets through receiving market-maker bribes to push special tax loopholes while "Rosty" headed the tax-writing committee of the House.

Rahm's father was part of an assassination team that snuffed out the UN Peace Mediator, Count Folke Bernadotte from Sweden whose family was tied to the Swedish King; during the 1948 Palestine Partitioning controversy. Rahm himself has dual citizenship and served in Israeli Defense Forces in 1990. He is Deputy Chief for North America of Israeli Intelligence, The Mossad, even while he is now a Congressman.

In September, 2000, the German money ship Dresdner Bank AG announced they are agreeing to merge with Wasserstein, Perella to become Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein.

Wasserstein & Co.,LP was formed in January, 2001 from Wasserstein Perella Group, Inc.

Rahm Emanuel is an expert and participant in Refco's worldwide dirty business including with international super-crook Marc Rich, combining Red Chinese-Israeli weapons deals with Red Chinese tungsten and other metals money washing, together with stolen and smuggled gold swapping. Rahm's expertise is making stinking currency deals smell good.

For a two year term, Rahm Emanuel was at one time on the Board of Directors of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange.

The Arabs, itching to grab Refco, apparently have the details of how W & P and Rahm Emanel had and have insider details, good for blackmailing, as to which fellow super-crooks ran billions of dollars of fake credit cards and other such transactions through massive computers in the Twin Towers of WTC just before the towers were pulverized by internal explosives on 9-11.

===Leo Melamed, once head of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. On the night of the October 19,1987 collapse (which I predicted six months in advance to the exact day) Melamed through the most illegal and devious means saved the CME or the "Merc", as it is called, from collapse. Born in China and speaking their lingo, Melamed reportedly has financial ties to the Red Chinese Secret Police who jointly with Refco, Rahm Emanuel, and Wasserstein, launder huge funds through the Chicago markets disguised as currency and soybean trading; including proceeds from harvesting human body parts from mainland China dissidents condemned to death as their body organs are ordered by Rockefeller's University of Chicago Hospitals in the highly profitable transplant business.

Like Rahm Emanuel and Wasserstein & Perella, and Refco, Leo Melamed is reputedly in a position to have known and profited from some form of prior knowledge of part of what was to occur on 9-11 and is in a position to be knowledgeable about the acts and doings of Refco by and through the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. All covered up by Bush's Securities and Exchange Commission.

===Dov Zakheim, formerly a Rabbi, installed in the Pentagon by Zakheim's Texas pal, George W. Bush in May, 2001, just months before 9-11, as Bush's Undersecretary of Defense, Zakheim has been CEO of a highly secretive private firm called System Planning Corporation. According to Zakheim's company's own website and literature
"Flight Termination System". System Planning Corporation is proud to offer the Flight Termination System (FTS), a fully redundant turnkey range safety and test system for REMOTE CONTROL AND FLIGHT TERMINATION OF AIRBORNE TEST VEHICLES. The FTS consists of SPC's Command Transmitter System (CTS) and custom control, interface, and monitoring subsystems. THE SYSTEM IS FULLY PROGRAMMABLE and is flexible enough to meet the changing and challenging requirements of today's modern test ranges." (Emphasis added.)

The details go on to point out how automated the system is. It can be operated from several remote sites or from a central site. Each CTS unit can be operated locally or as part of a larger FTS system.

Reportedly tied in various ways to Rahm Emanuel, Wasserstein, and Refco, Zakheim's firm was most likely the one involved in the remote control of whatever it was that struck the Twin Towers on 9-11, to be falsely blamed on "The Moslems" supposedly supervised from a CIA faker in a cave ten thousand miles away..

These details known to the Arab oil bankers plotting to take over the control of Refco's worldwide business, even if publicized by the petroleum sheiks as part of their agenda, are not to be blamed on all Jews in the U.S. collectively or all Jews in Israel collectively. Traitors to the tribe, whether in Hollywood or elsewhere, are blamable for their own crimes.

In his role as demagogue, Adolf Hitler, to divert attention away from Germany's economic problems, played the Jew Card, blaming all Germany's woes on one category of people. Is America's Hitler, similarly, with the help of Arab oil bankers and their agenda, about to do the same thing?
link
*******************************************************************
related article
************
Refco Wants to Begin Selling Assets Right Away, Lawyers Say

Oct. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Refco Inc., the futures trader that filed for bankruptcy protection Tuesday, wants to begin selling the company's assets right away, a company lawyer told a judge today.

The company has already agreed to sell Refco's regulated futures trading units for $768 million to J.C. Flowers & Co. Those units are not parties to Refco Inc.'s bankruptcy filing. The sale is subject to court approval.

``This is an ice cube that has been melting at an extraordinarily rapid rate,'' J. Gregory Milmoe, Refco's lawyer, told U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Robert Drain at a hearing today in New York. ``Nonetheless the company is committed to stopping the melting.''

Under bankruptcy law, solvent subsidiaries of a debtor can be auctioned to the highest bidder under a court's supervision. An auction of the units Flowers wants to buy could open up the field to other offers, including a bid by the government of Dubai to purchase all of the company, including regulated and unregulated units. Milmoe said the company has gotten 30 inquiries, three of which it considered serious enough to deal with.
link
hahalolol colin turning his back
*************
‘Cheney cabal hijacked US foreign policy’
By Edward Alden in Washington
Published: October 20 2005 00:00 | Last updated: October 20 2005 00:19

Dick CheneyVice-President Dick Cheney and a handful of others had hijacked the government's foreign policy apparatus, deciding in secret to carry out policies that had left the US weaker and more isolated in the world, the top aide to former Secretary of State Colin Powell claimed on Wednesday.

In a scathing attack on the record of President George W. Bush, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Mr Powell until last January, said: “What I saw was a cabal between the vice-president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.

“Now it is paying the consequences of making those decisions in secret,
more

Sherman H. Skolnick is a debunked paranoid schitzophrenic nutcase (at one time-back in the '60's was a verifiable attorney-who HAD somewhat respectable credentials) who believes everything is a consipracy-Most all of his stuff today is laughable... Besides, what you posted says NOTHING-except like I said before-empty conjecture, baseless accusations and vacuuous logic of one kook (You can't disprove this inane crap, so I must be right)...this isn't a debate (debates have TWO or more viable sides)..it's a mockery of reason. You lost dude...Give it up...

Someone else chime in please...

MrVelvet,what you fail to understand is the fact that you are talking to "the"Sunofone.
This is the guy that pretty much believes in all of the silly conspiracy theories,aliens on Mars the moonhoax etc,if there is a way to blame the government for something you can bet your butt that he is the first guy on the field.


http://www.skepticreport.com/funnies/woowoocredo.htm

What people like Sunofone fails to understand is that a theory is more than a hunch.
It's a sturdy scientific model that's been tested by repeated observations and backed up by empirical evidence,in this case 300 experts,but for some reason he still believes that he is the only one that can see right through this "evil conspiracy."

Basically it's a bunch of pseudoscientists talking mumbo jumbo, and while true structural engineers, metallurgists, and avionics experts just blow them off as ignorant fools, some conspiracy-minded laymen like sunofone listen to them with rapt attention.

Sunofone claims of a conspiracy has been totally debunked many times on this thread,but he doesn't know it,sense he doesn't read the counter posts to his cut and paste orgy.

Most people are able to deal with fears and accept them as part of life...
But for others, this burden is too great. As a result, they ignore the real fears and instead create massive new things to be concerned about.

Enter Conspiracies.
The government isn’t a benign entity born of social contract, it’s a vast, fanged beast that hides unimaginable secrets from its citizens.
No matter that each of their “theorys” are explained using simple, easily verifiable evidence.

It’s simply more comforting for them to believe that either their evidence is better, or those disproving their claims are in on the conspiracy.

Thus, the elaborate explanation of a simple event occupies their part of their minds that would otherwise be flooded with insecurities about everyday life.....

chanting lies does not make them true--you have never offered a reasonable explantion for the many aspects the truth demonstrates--after i list the evidence please do not chant that it has been debunked before --offer a simplified explanation(if you can) of any link you will be sure to add as none of them proove anything other than conjecture which is why you will not put it to print(in other words dont divert)--below is info on bldg7,eye witness testimony,and high ranking whistle blowers that have never been refuted or challenged in any way---
*********************************************************************
BLDG 7
******
bldg 7 was not struck by an airplane and the progressive collapse theory has been shot down long ago! --

*******************************************************************
“Amazing, incredible pick your word. For the third time today, it’s reminiscent of those pictures we’ve all seen too much on television before, where a building was deliberately destroyed by well placed dynamite to knock it down.”

CBS News anchor Dan Rather commenting on the collapse of Building 7 - September 11, 2001 at approx 5:30pm EST.

*******************************************************************
Progressive collapses dont mimick demolitions!!!--the reason for these is to demonstrate the absolute foolishness in the official story


TOPPLED BUILDINGS

The photos below are of buildings which collapsed during an earthquake. They show the typical result that occurs when a single load bearing member fails, resulting in the remains of the building tipping over(progressive collapse) and down onto the initiating point.
*******************************************************************
Take a close look at the manner in which WTC 7 collapses straight down. For the building to collapse in this fashion, all of the load bearing supports would have had to fail at exactly the same time.

The claim that the collapse was the result of a fire requires the fire be equally distributed throughout the entire floor of the building, providing equal heat for an equal amount of time, so that all the load bearings members would fail at the exact same moment.

Do you find this plausible?

***********************************************************************
***********************************************************************
cont...below

cont from above
***********************************************************************
***********************************************************************
EYE WITNESS TESTIMONY
9/11 NBC News broadcast
LISTEN
"Shortly after 9 o'clock ... [Albert Turi the Chief of Safety for the New York Fire Department] received word of the possibility of a secondary device, that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said there was another explosion which took place, and then an hour after the first hit - the first crash that took place - he said there was another explosion that took place in one of the towers here, so obviously according to his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building.

One of the secondary devices he thinks that took place after the initial impact he thinks may have been on the plane that crashed into one of the towers. The second device - he thinks, he speculates - was probably planted in the building. ... But the bottom line is that he, Albert Turi, said that he probably lost a great many men in those secondary explosions, and he said that there were literally hundreds, if not thousands, of people in those towers when the explosions took place."
********************************************************************
Watch two firemen talk about the explosions. link
********************************************************************

"As we were getting our gear on and making our way to the stairway, there was a heavy duty explosion."
********************************************************************

"We were trying to get some of the people out, but then there was secondary explosions and then subsequent collapses."
********************************************************************

"...and then all of a sudden it started like... it sounded like gunfire... you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and then all of a sudden three big explosions."
********************************************************************

"I was about five blocks away when I heard explosions... three thuds and turned around to see the building that we just got out of... tip over and fall in on itself."
********************************************************************

"At 10:30 I tried to leave the building, but as I got outside I heard a second explosion ... And then a fire marshal came in and said we had to leave, because if there was a third explosion this building might not last."
********************************************************************
"Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure."Fire Engineering Magazine
*********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
WHISTLE_BLOWERS

Just answer me this Sunofone.

Do you belive that the government is responsible for "chemtrails" or that there are aliens hidden away at area 51.

Well....?


Ohh,one more thing kid,if you are going to quote me/anyone,then do it right,no wonder you have a problem with reality.

Well said...You summed it up...

Huh??? I cannot make any sense of that sentence..

there is no point talking about 9/11. people that believe in the conspiracy will believe that until death(i believe in the conspiracy lol) people that dont believe the conspiracy will not believe it. even if bush said that it was conspiracy, still people will not believe it. my point is there is no point fighting because NO ONE will change their mind so might as well relax guys (that applies to me to hahah). if you believe in something i respect that just dont try to change my mind.

everyone should have a nice day and believe in ...............(its up to you hahah)

Look up the word irony.

^^ I know what Irony means hazzard... That sentence perhaps?

Hey Mr velvet,
I want an obviously, but I want a smart obviously unlike the one you say sunofone must have...


I don't usually do that, but when someone calls someone else dumb they deserve it.

you're not gonna hate me for it are you Mr velvet?

Anyway...

Missle, plane, whatever hit the pentagon it does not matter; I believe it was a plane.
I'm just glad that one of the most secure places in america is so easily hit.

As for the plane that was "brought down" by people onboard... You would think that after they "kiled the terrorists" or beat em up or whatever, that they would have kept the nose of the plane away from the ground... You know so they don't die.

I'm not saying they could fly it, but pull back on the controls a little... That would atleast buy them some time. And also did they use the radio to contact the ground team? You know ask for help... That wasn't rethorical, I just want to know.

But enough of that; Undead lizard is right. Except for the fact that almost everyone on september 11, 2001 KNEW it was terrorists. So a lot of us did switch to the conspiracy side.
I don't know if anyone switched back.

Of course dont forget...

Link

-MuddyFrog

what i posted is the truth--bldg 7 collapsing due to every support column being severed at the exact same time and this cannot be denied--the truth stands up by itself which is exactly why you ignore it like the plague--have you examined the whistle blowers thread? choose one and offer your explanation as to how that person became confused or give a reason for their testimony to be dismissed--are your credentials better? were you a documented witness? did you learn anything from the image of the windsor building in relation to bldg7? and please dont resort to chanting the talking points of a political parrot--many of the images above are direct links to video so you can view it in real time--albert turri was a high ranking firefighter with the education and experience to evaluate what he was witnessing--how can you accept the lies of usurper cronies over these people? where is your logic rationale in viewing the collapse of bldg7 ??? the many aspects of truth demonstrated above stand alone and do not need any reasoning to accept unlike the official explanation for the collapse of bldg 7


well if straight forward doesnt doesnt register theres is no hope as
it is more difficult to comprehend sarcasm--

That could be the answer muddyfrog,some people in the US just cant belive that a bunch of 3d world thugs could execute such a satanic and well planed attack right in the face on the mighty USA.
As for glad,well,its not the word Id chose to describe my feelings about it.

Speculative of course,but,the terrorists couldn't even fly the plane like it should be flown(turning the AP on and off for the entire flight says a lot),and they had training,what makes you think that "civilians" could do better.

When New York City's giant World Trade Center towers plunged to earth following successive suicide terrorist attacks on September 11th, the world was confronted with one of most shocking—and sickening—sights of modern times.

The mechanisms by which these huge and seemingly solid edifices suddenly collapsed.
A panel of Boston area-based civil and structural engineers convened to discuss the fate of the superskyscrapers, struck by hijacked passenger planes.

Their starkly sobering analyses highlighted the vulnerabilities of ultra-tall buildings to fire and pointed out steps that could be taken to lessen them.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID...umber=1&catID=4

Keep the plane level...
not turn or anything. I didn't say they could land...
How about ask air traffic control how to turn AP on? Then turn it on.

And like the terrorists could hit the world trade center buildings that are about the same size as the wingspan of the plane... That is what YOU just pointed out. Mabey you can start to see why I say the things I do?

Of course I am not glad; you must be crazy? I was only gaging people's opinions of me. To see if we as "conspiracy theorists" are seen in a certain light... Which they are I must assume now.

hazzard you must know that there was a drill at 8:30 on 9/11.
You must also know there were drills some 2 years in advance with WTC as a target.

It's not like this came out of the blue. The FBI knew something was going to happen and tried to stop it.

That could be the answer hazzard, some people in the US just can't believe that a bunch of thugs in high places could execute such a satanic and well planed attack right in the face of the mighty USA.


You can pick and choose but why not answer everything?
You must be very blissful indeed.


-MuddyFrog

Could it be that some people in the US just cant belive that a bunch of 3d world thugs could execute such a satanic and well planed attack right in the face on the mighty US of A.

Is that why the conspiracy theorists(mostly Americans)are screaming inside job?

There is widespread distrust of the current U.S. administration under President George W. Bush – and rightly so.

But the very thought that our government could pull this incredibly complex,and supremely risky hoax off,fooling structural engineers, metallurgists, and avionics experts world-wide yet ineptly unable to pull the wool over the eyes of a few ideologues on some fringe web sites is just complete and utter nonsense.

Popular Mechanics
All the 9/11 conspiracy claims are easily refuted by a group of over 300 professionals in the areas of aviation, engineering and the military. Their goal? They analyzed many of the "theories" that have sprung up across the internet and asked the professionals to explain the events from a logical and scientific standpoint.


It has always been my thought that the attacks on 9/11 were orchestrated and planned by a group of extreme Islamic jihadists. I think the vast majority of people around the world would agree with that based on the evidence. To think that such an attack could have been perpetuated by our government is ludicrous and makes absolutely no sense to the rest of the world.

And one last thing guys,lets not get in to a pie throwing contest,lets keep it civil,ok.

Have a nice weekend everyone,I know I will.

Get the quote right or dont quote me at all.

OK BUT...

that seems a little umm well you know.
HeHe thx for the source DEBUNKER.

Here is another



Are these guys joking? "yes it was designed to be hit by a plane that had just wasted its last bit of fuel." <-- in an official sounding voice.



The temperature got to 1800 celcius?



hmm.. so all of the buildings weight was at the very top? and all the 120 odd floors below don't really exist? ie. The stuff at the bottom has zero potential energy. and up from there. Who are these people trying to kid? Average height ahem... as in half the energy they are saying... Not all potential is kenetic either; You have friction and of course these people are using "pancake theory" so resistence of lower floors...

Now saying half the height is assuming something. It is assuming that the weight is equally distributed from floor 1 to floor 126. As some of you may know the lower floors have thicker, heavier, supports than those at the top. Just like they say:
So therfore the total weight, 500,000 tons is more concentrated in lower floors meaning that the center of mass would be lower than half way down. So the potential energy would be even less than half of what they say it should be.

The way they are saying it the entire bulding is at 1,350 feet compacted into a tiny ball then dropped.

This makes me wonder about them...

BUT don't trust me I know nothing about physics.. He He

how odd...



So not only did they hit the towers they hit em in the exact right spot. They somehow knew where that was, then they somehow got their plane to get there. Yet they are terrible pilots.
Hmmm....

^^all of the above comes directly from your source debunker^^

THAT was not a quote hazzard...

It would have said muddyfrog not hazzard.

It was a clever way of turning it against you.
bold so you see it.


In a murder case the cop doesn't go "to the best of my knowledge..." But that is how 9/11 is.
-MuddyFrog

3000 people died. And you're glad. How pathetic....Sad that you live here in the U.S..You don't deserve it...

This thread is no longer worth answering...

Yes it is, just remember this MrVelvet,try to stay objective,I know it can be hard debating these kids/self proclaimed experts in a topic this emotionally loaded.
We all know that it crawls with spreaders of fear,pseudo scientists and liers on sites like this (and GLP),being from ignorance,stupidity or what ever....

I suggest that you go and check out this site,anything you ever whanted to ask or debate,these guys will help you. http://www.bautforum.com/
The woo woos never go there,and the reason is that they like to keep their nonsense intact.

really you havent used it to debate the facts presented to you here--
UNCONTESTED FACTS
still waiting

here we go agitation used as a distraction from debating the facts--get your facts straight 3000 didnt just die those people were murdered and not by disgruntled goatherders--the fact that we continue the struggle for the truth prooves we are indeed more concerned than you who are interested in defending the guilty party(without looking at the evidence you post)--just weeks before 9/11 larry silverstein who already owned bldg7 bought both towers and re-insured them with a new terrorism clause that actually placed him at the top of the world richest men list(after receiving his pay out)--is this not motive enough?dont forget that the towers had already been bombed in 93 by the fbi and were practically condemned due to the structural comprimises and the asbestos--why would he do this?the estimated demo and clean up was already admitted going to cost a full years rent from every tenet which didnt even include the rebuild!--how lucky can you get???!?! this absolutely ridiculous when you figure in the political "capital" that was gained by the bush administration in the hunt for the perps to such an extent that not only were they able to out the taliban and acquire the natural gas pipeline worth an est 7 "t"rillion but they used it as an excuse to get rid of donald rumsfelds little puppet while procurring untold millions in no-bid contracts for the vice -prez's ex-employer!! i didnt even touch on the evidence destroyed in the collapses or the fact that people were warned and others profitted in the stock market with their foreknowledge--the case is conclusive--again i ask you to comment on the evidence provided without linking to benji chertoff's cover-up for his cousin micheal chertoff(the head of the dept of homeland sec)--the PM article is the biggest joke the whitewashers try to use--at least try and use the nist report as it is more credible that PM even though its just as easy to debunk--
here we go try again--UNCONTESTED FACTS

Neither the text or your link makes any sense what so ever,please hang up and try again.

Case Closed!! the fact is that everyone knows the truth already--only some are still pretendeing to believe the official story in order to protect their fragile psyce--its time to put our foot down and disregaurd these mental nitwits as the furture of global stability is being threatened--email the newyork times and petition them to dissent from their gag order--
***********************************************************************
Case For WTC Tower
Demolition Sealed By Griffin
Theologian Says Controlled Demolition
is Now a Fact, Not a Theory
From Kevin Barrett
Coordinator MUJCA-NET
Muslim-Christian-Jewish Alliance For 911
10-21-5


In two speeches to overflow crowds in New York last weekend, notable theologian David Ray Griffin argued that recently revealed evidence seals the case that the Twin Towers and WTC-7 were destroyed by controlled demolition with explosives. Despite the many enduring mysteries of the 9/11 attacks, Dr. Griffin concluded, "It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

On Oct. 15th and 16th, New Yorkers filled two venues to hear the prominent theologian and author of two books on 9/11 give a presentation entitled "The Destruction of the Trade Towers: A Christian Theologian Speaks Out." Dr. Griffin has continued to blaze a trail of courage, leading where most media and elected officials have feared to tread. His presentation went straight to the core of one of the most powerful indictments of the official story, the collapse of the towers and WTC 7.

Dr. Griffin included excerpts from the firemenís tapes which were recently released as a result of a prolonged court battle led by victimís families represented by attorney Norman Siegel and reported in the NY Times. He also included statements by many witnesses. These sources gave ample testimony giving evidence of explosions going off in the buildings. A 12 minute film was shown for the audiences, who saw for themselves the undeniable evidence for controlled demolition.

Dr. Griffin listed ten characteristics of the collapses which all indicate that the buildings did not fall due to being struck by planes or the ensuing fires. He explained the buildings fell suddenly without any indication of collapse. They fell straight into their own footprint at free-fall speed, meeting virtually no resistance as they fell--a physical impossibility unless all vertical support was being progressively removed by explosives severing the core columns.

The towers were built to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 and 160 mile per hour winds, and nothing about the plane crashes or ensuing fires gave any indication of causing the kind of damage that would be necessary to trigger even a partial or progressive collapse, much less the shredding of the buildings into dust and fragments that could drop at free-fall speed.

The massive core columns--the most significant structural feature of the buildings, whose very existence is denied in the official 9/11 Commission Report--were severed into uniform 30 foot sections, just right for the 30-foot trucks used to remove them quickly before a real investigation could transpire.

There was a volcanic-like dust cloud from the concrete being pulverized, and no physical mechanism other than explosives can begin to explain how so much of the buildings' concrete was rendered into extremely fine dust. The debris was ejected horizontally several hundred feet in huge fan shaped plumes stretching in all directions, with telltale "squibs" following the path of the explosives downward.

These are all facts that have been avoided by mainstream and even most of the alternative media. Again, these are characteristics of the kind of controlled demolitions that news people and firefighters were describing on the morning of 9/11. Those multiple first-person descriptions of controlled demolition were hidden away for almost four years by the City of New York until a lawsuit finally forced the city to release them. Dr. Griffin's study of these accounts has led him beyond his earlier questioning of the official story of the collapses, to his above-quoted conclusion: The destruction of the three WTC buildings with explosives by US government terrorists is no longer a hypothesis, but a fact that has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Itís important to note that Dr. Griffin is one of many prominent intellectuals--including the likes of Gore Vidal, Howard Zinn, Peter Dale Scott, Richard Falk, Paul Craig Roberts, Morgan Reynolds and Peter Phillips--who have seen through the major discrepancies of the official explanation of 9/11 and have risen to challenge it. These brave individuals represent the tip of an ever-growing iceberg of discreet 9/11 skeptics. Indeed, 9/11 skepticism appears to be almost universal among intellectuals who have examined the evidence, since there has not yet been a single serious attempt to refute the case developed by Dr. Griffin and such like-minded thinkers as Nafeez Ahmed and Mike Ruppert. As for the general public, polls have shown that a strong majority of Canadians (63%, Toronto Star, May '04) and half of New Yorkers (Zogby, August 2004) agree that top US leaders conspired to murder nearly 3,000 Americans on 9/11/01.

How, then, can the mainstream US media continue to ignore the story of the century? Perhaps the best answer was given by Dr. Griffin himself in the conclusion of his talk, and is worth quoting at length:



Dr. Griffinís speech given at the University of Wisconsin earlier this year, entitled "9/11 and the American Empire," was broadcast twice on C-SPAN. In late September Dr. Griffin was asked to give expert testimony at hearings sponsored by Cynthia McKinney and the Congressional Black Caucus investigating the 9/11 Commission Report. He is currently Professor Emeritus at Claremont College in California.

This weekend's events were sponsored by NY911truth.org, WBAI and the Muslim-Christian-Jewish Alliance for 9/11 Truth: http://mujca.com.

Kevin Barrett
Coordinator, MUJCA-NET
link

Sunofone,you never answered my question,is there a conspirasy theory or a hoax that you dont belive in.
You know,one that seems just a little bit tooo out there,even by your standards.

Why Im asking?...This goes in your file as credability,in this and all the other debates.

I doubt he believes magic beans actually grow into a giant bean stalks.

I doubt he believes Elvis is still alive and ruling the world from behind the scenes

I doubt he believes in a lot of conspiracies. The ones he and I focus on are the ones with documented facts.

Debunker, are you really that naive, or do you think I'm just paranoid. All your experts have been fed the same propaganda you have, no wonder they came to the same conclusion as the 9/11 commission. You were only allowed to know certain facts that supported the conspiracy theory that Bin laden was responsible.

We are obviously at different extremes.

What it really comes down to is this. You don't think they are capable of carrying out the deed, because of many reasons including you don't think they could keep everyone quiet.

I disagree, but am tired of arguing for the time being. Believe what you want, I think the truth will come out eventually. And it will support the inside job.

For some reason my quotes are not working so I am in black quotes are in blue.

[quote name='muddyfrog' date='Oct 21 2005, 05:30 AM' post='896416']
Of course I am not glad; you must be crazy? I was only gaging people's opinions of me. To see if we as "conspiracy theorists" are seen in a certain light... Which they are I must assume now.

-MuddyFrog
[/quote]

[quote name='MrVelvet' date='Oct 21 2005, 08:38 AM' post='896523']
3000 people died. And you're glad. How pathetic....Sad that you live here in the U.S..You don't deserve it...

This thread is no longer worth answering...
[/quote]

Im guessing you guys can't read...
oh well. Now look at the times those two posts were posted.
Ok so far so good atleast for someone with basic reading comprehension. Don't ignore me again.

SO since you guys didn't see the firsst time here you go again...
these quotes are from that first source that DEBUNKER put up

READ

[quote]
With all of its structural redundancies, "the World Trade Center was probably one of the more resistant tall building structures," McNamara said, adding that "nowadays, they just don't build them as tough as the World Trade Center."
[/quote]

OK but...

[quote]
Though the twin towers were not much taller than their famous uptown predecessor, the Empire State Building, the World Trade Center rose during the late 1960s, a new era of construction characterized by rapidly erected, lightweight steel structures rather than heavy masonry walls," explained Robert Fowler, senior engineer at the structural engineering firm of McNamara and Salvia.

"As the Trade Center was so much lighter in comparison to earlier designs, it was a watershed building in the history of skyscrapers," he added.
[/quote]

that seems a little umm well you know.
HeHe thx for the source DEBUNKER.

Here is another

[quote]
Newspapers and TV newscasts reported that the twin towers had been designed to withstand a collision with a Boeing 707. The events of September 11th show that this was indeed the case. "However, the World Trade Center was never designed for the massive explosions nor the intense jet fuel fires that came next—a key design omission," stated Eduardo Kausel, another M.I.T. professor of civil and environmental engineering and panel member.
[/quote]


Are these guys joking? "yes it was designed to be hit by a plane that had just wasted its last bit of fuel." <-- in an official sounding voice.


[quote]
Hot molten aluminum, suggests one well-informed correspondent, could have seeped down into the floor systems, doing significant damage. "Aluminum melts into burning 'goblet puddles' that would pool around depressions, [such as] beam joints, service openings in the floor, stair wells and so forth...The goblets are white hot, burning at an estimated 1800 degrees Celsius. At this temperature, the water of hydration in the concrete is vaporized and consumed by the aluminum. This evolves hydrogen gas that burns.
[/quote]


The temperature got to 1800 celcius?


[quote]
With a mass of about 500,000 tons (5 x 10 to the 8th kilograms), a height of about 1,350 ft. (411 meters), and the acceleration of gravity at 9.8 meters per second 2, he came up with a potential energy total of 10 to the 19th ergs (10 to the 12th Joules or 278 Megawatt-hours). "That's about 1 percent of the energy released by a small atomic bomb," he noted.
[/quote]


hmm.. so all of the buildings weight was at the very top? and all the 120 odd floors below don't really exist? ie. The stuff at the bottom has zero potential energy. and up from there. Who are these people trying to kid? Average height ahem... as in half the energy they are saying... Not all potential is kenetic either; You have friction and of course these people are using "pancake theory" so resistence of lower floors...

Now saying half the height is assuming something. It is assuming that the weight is equally distributed from floor 1 to floor 126. As some of you may know the lower floors have thicker, heavier, supports than those at the top. Just like they say:

[quote]
"At the bottom, the columns are much heavier and stronger and so they would have taken a much larger load."
[/quote]

So therfore the total weight, 500,000 tons is more concentrated in lower floors meaning that the center of mass would be lower than half way down. So the potential energy would be even less than half of what they say it should be.

The way they are saying it the entire bulding is at 1,350 feet compacted into a tiny ball then dropped.

This makes me wonder about them...

BUT don't trust me I know nothing about physics.. He He

So using their 278 megawatt-hours which if you take one more place it goes to 277.8, thne devide it in half you would get 138.9 megawatt-hours. So the real energy is less than that. Since they are not giveing me any waeight distribution measurments I can't tell you how much less energy it is. An estimate would be around 110 megawatt-hours, though that is an estimate so doesn't mean anything.

so Potential energy of WTC building < 139 megawatt-hours.

[quote]
Despite the expert panel's preliminary musings on the failure mechanisms responsible for the twin towers' fall, the definitive cause has yet to be determined.

Given the lack of firm conclusions regarding how the collapses occurred, the M.I.T. panel participants asked their audience to consider various theories they put forth.
[/quote]

how odd...


[quote]
McNamara opined that the position of impact seems significant. "They hit them at just the right place—about two thirds to three quarters of the way up. The earlier [truck bomb] attack showed that the explosion at bottom had little effect and that it's much easier to collapse a building from the top than the bottom.
[/quote]

So not only did they hit the towers they hit em in the exact right spot. They somehow knew where that was, then they somehow got their plane to get there. Yet they are terrible pilots.
Hmmm....

^^all of the above comes directly from your source debunker^^

THAT was not a quote hazzard...

It would have said muddyfrog not hazzard.

It was a clever way of turning it against you.
bold so you see it.


[quote]
To think that such an attack could have been perpetuated by our government is ludicrous and makes absolutely no sense to the rest of the world.
[/quote]

In a murder case the cop doesn't go "to the best of my knowledge..." But that is how 9/11 is.

-MuddyFrog

No it isn`t.
And all your pseudo science is blown away here,if you just can take the time and read it.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=1&c=y

Indeed they do. Except some folk are still in denial - unable to accept that anyone but a major western government could be capable of carrying out such an attrocity.....

Being from Europe my self,I have to tell you that this conspiracy theory is an American/anti Bush fenomenon.

No one outside the US takes this CT serious.

That just isn't true and you know it.

And your from...?

STALKER

Orpington in Kent, England.

However, you only need look at forums like this and you will see that people from all over the globe are skeptical of the official story, this isn't a phenomenom restricted to the US. The world is too small a place for this not to concern everyone.

I suppose the thing is, we know the Americans helped fund the IRA attrocities which killed hundreds of people in Britain, so on that basis, the Americans presumably think that any terrorist attack against America must also have been funded by Americans - from which point the road to conspiracyland lies wide and open..........