so far it seems dragons are just myths and legends, IF theyd did exist then they must have been some large creature or a large bird that looked reptillian that must have died out quite recently, just we havnt found any skeletons or bodies, the fire part of the myth is most likely from some farmer that accidentally burnt down his crops and blamed it on a draggy ;o

I agree with all the sceptics here. If there is no God there is no dragons. But if God exists, dragons can be very adequately explained, far better, than an absurd theory that people all ovr the world believed in exactly the same kind of flying reptilian creature with similar behavior on opposites sides of the world. And what bones could they find to think they are flying creatures. Pterosaur skeletons are some of the rarest fossils. And why would the people everywhere immediately think these bones belong to reptiles, when so many dragon legends come from places where there are no reptiles, or just tiny snakes and lizards. An why would all of these different peoples think that dragons are either gods or servants to gods. These sceptics have a great deal of "faith" in such a weak theory.

"Real" scientists like Carl Sagan could not dismiss the world-wide dragon phenomena nearly as readily as all of the "fake scientists" here. But he had a great mind and most of the people here are little more than "monster and alien enthusiasts".

they varied differntly throughout the earth...


Just like you...First, Carl Sagan wouldn't even have to deal with that notion that dragons exist because he is not a Monser enthusiast like you...If we are foolish, you are even more for your absurd ideas...there is no proof dragons existed except in "christianity"

no bashing here, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and as long as their "proof" has been validated by scientific institutions, then don't argue, most of what has been said i can find in college's library, use the bloody library more than the internet for info, sure it takes longer but it is well worth it.

It'd suck to be a dragon, they'd burn their tongue all the time, and all their food would taste bad.

I have it on good authority, Rep, that they do not burn their tongues. The hydrogen gas fire, in fact, is ignited by a small gobbet of phosporous, "sneezed" from a gland in their nostrils much the same way as other reptiles expell excess salts in their bodies. No fire is actually created in their mouths though it would seem so, unless under close inspection.

So they sneeze fire? Ouch. That's like... 50 times worse than smoking....

No they spew the gas like a jet through the notched rostral scale on their muzzle, the burning phosphorous sneezed from their nostrils just ignite it. It is the same priciple people use to spew fire from their mouths with flammable liquids, but no fire actually comes out of their mouths.

may we see this "authority"?


Sneezed?
*I like the way this day is starting out!*


How would one do a "close inspection" on a creature that does not exist?


I know the perfect line of work for you to get into......

Okay, I'll tell you a story.

Say Mr. Phosphorus lived inside Mr. Dragon's nose. One day Mr. Dragon had the sneezles, so Mr. Phosphorus was sneezed out.

This story has two endings.

Ending one:

Mr. Phosphorus reach the tip of the dragon's notrils, and then he spontainiously combusted! This was due to a chemical reaction from a substance on the tip of the dragon's nose.
This burnt Mr. Dragon's nose, seeing as the fire was not out of his nose yet.


Ending two:

Upon leaving Mr. Dragon's nose, Mr. Phosphorus spontainiously combusted with the Earth's atmosphere. THis is not due to the oxygen components of the air (they don't react) or the Carbon Dioxide (CO2 doesn't support combustion), but the Nitrogen. That is about 72% of the air.
Due to this, Mr. Dragon realised he had quite a problem, seeing as though he had been breathing in Nitrogen all this time. As he realised this, science took effect. He breathed in some Nitrogen and all the Phosphorus in his nose, throat and lungs set alight. The end of Mr. Dragon.



Okay.. that story made me sad

not true, most of the nitrogen in our atmosphere is stable n2 compounds, in other words nitrogen like to pair with other nitrogen and does so before becoming the gas that makes up our atmosphere. so, mr. dragon has nothing to worry about, that and he would have adapted to this fact, its not like he just magically appeared. that is to say if he was a "real" creature to begin with.

With N2, Phosporus wouldn't react in he first place...

Be careful Frogfish, in the last couple days on these UM forums you demonstrated your complete ignorance about the bible, about dinosaur classification, and now chemistry.

LOL, and apparantly you are an expert dragon-catching bible-teaching paleontologist.

DC, learn to read...It seems you do not know anything about cheistry. N2 is what we call an INERT GAS. Inert gases do not react with any other element under normal circumstances...therefore, it would be impossible for a dragon to breathe fire. The phosphorus wouldn't have anything to react to! Don't argue with me about chemistry...I certainly know more than you by he way you talk...

Also, what about dinosaur classification? Don't lie DC, it is a sin....and if you knew about catholicism, which you don't, you wouldn't lie...

Its time to shut up now...We all know you are no better than anyone else on this forum...from the newest newbie to the Administrator..

Ah, well the DC's theory about sneezing phosphorus is incorrect... thanks for the info

And I'm glad that Mr. Dragon is okay

i'm sorry ...i'm newbie here.......i see picture of dragon at gallery it say "dragon flying at tibet sky"........that's be a good evidence that dragon was exist
.......thx

The Chinese, Japanese and Koreans did not read the Old Testament yet came up with their own mythology and beliefs surrounding dragons just fine. Years and years before (if you believe in) the existence of Christ. (and adding in an edit - "Chosen" ones? "Into the fold"!?? What's up with that? Makes it sound like Christians are the only ones with the guiding light and everyone else is fishing in the dark. That is so .. hmm. can't think of something polite to call that...)

Seraphim and Cherubim are categories of angel. Never knew them to be considered dragons. The Devil has been (Rev 12:3-4), but angels?

I guess I’m not really adding anything new here. Just thought I’d post. This is interesting.

Welcome DKNY...remeber...90 percent of most picture are unreliable....as that one is.

Well, the whole world has a universal fear of reptiles....dino bones would account for those "monsters" Also, in almost every religion, the "demons" or evil presence could fly...Dino bones+fear of reptiles+flight of "demons"=flying dragons....also, remeber not all dragons spew fire.

Welcome Lucky to the UM forum!

oops, never looked at Lucky's postcount...

WELCOME

When ever I see a name that does not look familiar I look at the post count and date joined.

Actually Lucky go to the Jewish Enclyclopedia online, and it will tell you what the word "Seraphim" means. But if you have read my posts you will see that it means a fiery, flying serpent, another way of saying a dragon, and in other places in the bible they are simply referred to as dragons as well. Cherubim are also referred to as dragons in various scriptures, as well as ancient Jewish and Christian artwork.

The Roman catholic church "turned" these creatures into implausible winged human "angels" base on the model of the pagan Roman Gods. In the old testament, no angel has wings nor are they "spirits". They eat food and look exactly like regular men.

Some Christian sects now try to cover up these obvious facts. My book presents an overwhelming amount of evidence that winged reptilian creatures we generally know as "dragons", were once an intregal part of the theologies of both Judaism and the early Christain Church. This doesn't make the dragon's real however, if the God/religion is false. But if the God is real, it could explain why cultures all over the world believed in dragons.

Yes, virtually every culture has dragons, but if they are supernatural creatures (as the lack of physical evidence suggests), they can only be from one religion/entity source, and the other cultures merely observed then and drew their own conclusions as to how they fit in their belief system.

Christians were influenced by Hebrew and Greek ideologies, and yes dragon myths appeared throughout the world at about the same time. DC is not saying christians are the best only saying that dragons in the Old Testament, written in Hebrew, mention dragon-like beings.

Actually, the only thing really "obvious" here, is that indoctrination works. Heh. I'm gonna point you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERAPHIM - for the stuff I was taught in my philsophy of angels class, which, "obviously" had a very unJewish slant to it, since I never learned about Enoch until tonight (on account of it not existing in my bible). Wik says that Seraphim is/are: "one of a class of celestial beings mentioned once in the Old Testament (Tanakh), in Isaiah. Later Jewish imagery perceived them as having human form, and in that way they passed into the ranks of Christian angels." See also the celestial heirachy and the meanings of fire as: a way to God, holy cleansing, and enlightenment.

Also, "They resonate with the fire symbolically attached to both purification and love. The etymology of 'seraphim' itself comes from the word saraph. Saraph in all its forms is used to connote a burning, fiery state. Seraphim, as classically depicted, can be identified by their having six wings radiating from the angel's face at the center."

I think we all draw our own conclusions as to how things fit our own belief systems. Also, what book is it you speak of? I'm curious. And, why only once source? You mean a Christian sources, or a Jewish one? Or something else entirely? I think you lost me.

christianity's old testament is derived from the Hebrew texts,
and Jew is technically a racial slur, look it up.

Seraphim, roughly tranlates as one of flames.

Last time I checked, Jew was just short for Jewish.

[CONSPIRACY] Almost every culture had some kind of god [/CONSPIRACY]

Therefore, due to your logic, the first created god, is the only one plausable.

Looks like the Sumerian reptile gods are looking over us now.

All hail Anu!

Yes, in my Friend's Theology class (CC)...Seraphims are part of the Heirarchy of Angels. I learned that to in cathecism.

I agree with DC on some of the cases here. For instance, Seraphim is derived from the Hebrew text. However, it has a mixed meaning, depending on the scholar. Some like to derive it from the VERB "saraph" which means, " to consume with fire" while others, derive it from the NOUN " saraph" which in DC's case, means " a fiery and flying serpent ". Both meanings are found in the bible, but none can be classified as correct, it's more or less that persons take on the teachings.

And yes Seraphim are a celestrial order of Angels, the most powerful. The Hierarchy of Angelic beings goes in this order.

The Seraphim
The Cherubim
The Thrones
The Dominations
The Virtues
The Powers
The Principalities
The Arch-Angels
The Angels

I googled "seraphim" and clicked feeling lucky and this is what I found:

www.newadvent.org

hmm, well their ya go , pretty much what I said lol.

Obviously, most people this day and age don't want to translate "Seraphim" as it was originally intended, but there is abundant other information that proves the serpent-dragon translation is the the most accurate one. Here are just a few, my book has many more, as well as actuall Jewish and early Christiian depiections of the heavenly dragons.

1. Isaiah DOES NOT allude to a human form, he merely says the creatures have wings, arms and legs, exactly like the earliest Sumerian , Jewish and Early Christian depictions of heavenly dragons.

2. Isaiah mentions the Seraphim being the heavenly chorus, The book of Psalms mentiones "dragons" singing praises to God. The two of course are the same.

3. Since these are creatures, the Noun seraph meaning firery flying serpents is more correct than the verb to burn. The EXACT same word is used in describing the firery flying serpents sent by God to punish the Hebrews, to there can be no doubt which word was intended.

4 The book of Enochs translates "Seraphim" from the Greek as "dragons"

5. The guardian Cherubs in Enoch are described as dragons, with serpent like heads full of sharp teeth..

6. God flies on the back of huge Cherubim dragons in two different Bible verses.

7. The Guradian Cherub-dragons of eden, are carried on throughout the world in other tree-guarding dragon legends.

8. The creature sent by God to swallow Jonah was orginally a dragon *(tannyn). NOT a fish or whale.

9. God sent a dragon to swallow Moses for not circumcising his Son, but the dragon releases him when his wife quickly does it. YOu can see the spot where this was removed fom the bible, but appears in parallel Jewish writings.

10. Jesus told his disciples to be "wise as serpents", though the orignal meaning was dragons. (In Greek the same word can be used for both). Who would tell anyone to be as wise as a snake?

11. Satan is refered to as a dragon because that's what he was. The bible never says he was a human-like angel, and if he were, he would have no power, becasue angels are only messengers and can even be out wrestled by humans (Jacob), like the dragons, they are physical beings, not spirits. Both eat food and some angels craved sex. (Understand that there is no such thing as the fallen angel Lucifer, this is now known to be a mistranslation. Satan was actually testing Jesus just as he tested Job, but as a huge dragon, had the power to conquer human kingdoms and offer them to Jesus.

12. The Persians believed the Jewish God was a dragon, probably because of the dragon servants that sometimes punished them.

13. Cherubim dragons are seen on ancient depictions of the 7 branch menorah, exactly as they also decorated the ark of the covenant (no depiections of this still exists though).

14, The symbol of the Hebrew tribe of Dan was a Dragon.

15. The proto-Eden story of the Sumerians on which the Hebrew one was based included a talking, winged dragon who served a higher, human like God, and offered Adama eternal life on the Gods behalf (very easy to see after 1000 years of oral tradition this became the Hebrew Eden story)

There is much more than this, but it gives you an idea. It is really beyond any dispute, even the early Christians knew this as indicated by their art, and numerous books and religious texts no longer contained in the Bible (Enoch is just one of many).

Many modern Christians simply freak out and refuse to believe this becasue they are so hung up by "appearances". They want their angels to be blond haired blue eyed Swan winged nordic Giants, because the original Roman Catholic church used the the pagan Roman model for all heavenly creatures, not realizing the Cherubim and Seraphim were dragons. However, many of their greatest scholars like St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine knew this as can be seen from their writings. All of the fire spewing punishment stuff in the bible can be connected to these creatures, exactly like many contemporary world-wide dragon legends.

The book should be to the publisher before Christmas for anyone interested in learning more.

None of that nonsense is true in the Catholic Bible...
#5 and #10 could be snakes..wise evil creatures

Can you actually go talk to the guy who first translated this stuff and find out for sure? You know that the original Cinderalla had slippers of fur, right? But translators mixed up "fur" for "glass" hence the existence of the story we tell our children now...

Other comments:

1. He says it has a face, and that face has since been assumed to be human. I could see a face in a cloud, but that doesn't make the cloud human. I'll give you that.

2. Gimme a psalm that proves this. (I don't believe in "of course" when it comes to this kind of thing.)

3. How do you know one description is "more correct" than another? But there IS doubt as to which definition is the preferred one, or else we wouldn't have a debate on our hands.

4. I'll believe you.

5. I have to take that on faith too, not having Enoch to hand.

6. Which verses?

7. Where's the proof of this statement? Where did this come from?

8. Where is that written, aside from here?

9. Why do you think this particular information was removed from one version but kept in the other?

10. How do you know this? You like "obvious" and "of course" and "no doubt" but you don't really illustrate very clearly where these ideas have originated to help your readers come to the same conclusions you have.

11. I don't know about Lucifer, but am I going to have to wait until this book comes out to find out exactly how it's known Jesus fought a dragon?

12. I'll take your word for it.

13. If no depictions exist, how do you know it existed as you describe?

14. I believe you.

15. Right on. Most stories have been borrowed/taken from earlier belief systems. Hence, the reason Easter moves every year, although there must have been three specific days Christ lay in a tomb somewhere...

And last, show me the works by Aquinas and Augustine that prove your claim here. Is this also in the book? Really wanting this book now....

Yes but did you read all of the web page?

DC
I asked you in a different thread.....Just what Bible are you using for your Biblical information?

maybe they though dinosaurs were dragons...or something

Yes, didn't tell me anything I didn't already know.

Zandore, The Best known bible before modern catholics and fundies started rewriting it is the King James, ironically a "catholic" bible with at least a dozen specific mentions of dragon. When it was written, most europeans still believed in dragons so had no reason to change the scripture. Plus, the writings of the greatest Catholic theologians recognized the heaenly dragon servants, so there was no reason to edit the dragons out until more modernn times. But even here, for every "dragon" passage I research, I seek confirmation in the original Hebrew scriptures. The word for dragon in Hebrew is Tannyn, and it is used in all these cases. Although when a dragon's specific title is given then Cherubim, Seraphim, Destroyer is also used.

I am not going to waste a lot of time looking up every scripture for the benefit of this forum. They are all in my book, along with ancient depictions of the dragons on Jewish Temple ornaments, ancient Chistian church mosaics, illuminated manuscripts, etc. I assure you I have no intention to "invent" anything, for all the material will be subject to scrutinity and verification from all religious quarters. I can say that Biblical scholars you have read the manuscript can find no fault in it, but more intelligent people like this don't freak out and go crazy over the true appearance of heavenly creatures as certain members of this forum, and are glad to have read it as it does solve some of the bible's mysteries.

Jesus never "fought" a dragon. But if you read the "so-called" temptation account, knowing Satan is a dragon, the wording makes more sense. For example, Satan "took" Jesus to the temple as if physically grasping him, and "placed" him on the Temple pinnacle. It doesn't allude to any magical mumbo jumbo "beam me up scooty" type of nonsense, you see in all the Jesus flicks. Jesus called him a devourer of men and warned his disciples likewise, and there are additional instances in Jewish literature of God sending dragons to devour people besides the Jonah and Moses accounts I have already alluded to.

Even though its hard for me to say he is right.....DC is correct about Dragon's in the bible but some scholars believe that the dragons are instead Dinosaur's .

http://reptile.users2.50megs.com/bib/b102099a.html

There are some references on this page to passages that mention Dragon & Serpents, Welcome DC,

The Bible mentions two creatures that seem remarkably similar to the dinosaurs, the leviathan and behemoth, in Job chapters 40-41. It is the view of Creation scientists that all the “dragon” myths came from real contact between human beings and dinosaurs. The Bible tells us that all animals were created around 6000 years ago and co-existed with human beings. That would explain how all human cultures have myths about giant reptiles – because they actually saw them! The “fire-breathing” aspect of a dragon is most likely a myth, but the universal legends of giant reptile points to real contact between human beings and dinosaurs.
That is not my Quote i got it from Bible Questions Answered

The KJV....That one I am most familiar with. Outside of revelations (being about the future) there are only six times where dragons are mentioned.

I think you just said it here! Just trying to sell your book.

$$$$$

In the book of Job, both Behemoth and Leviathan are listed alongside a number of other animals that are clearly mundane, such as goats, eagles, and hawks, leading many Christian scholars to surmise that Behemoth and Leviathan may also be mundane creatures. The animal most often proposed for Leviathan is the Nile crocodile.

Like the Leviathan, the Nile crocodile is aquatic, scaly, and possesses fierce teeth. Job 41:18 states that Leviathan's eyes "are like the eyelids of the morning". Some have compared this verse to a crocodile's eyes, which rise out of the water before the rest of its head, invoking the image of the sun rising over the horizon.

The major difficulty of this view is that in Job chapter 41 Leviathan is described as breathing fire like a dragon. Proponents of this view respond by claiming that this is a poetic description of the crocodile's fierce hiss. They support this statement by showing that horses have been described as "snorting fire" since ancient times.

Another difficulty is that the crocodile does not seem to fit the descriptions of Leviathan given in other Bible passages, e.g. it does not have multiple heads. However, if (as some have suggested) Leviathan is a generic term for any sea monster, then the creatures described in Isaiah and the Psalms may be different, possibly mythical, creatures.

Suggestions as to Behemoths identity include the water buffalo and the elephant, but the most common suggestion is the hippopotamus.

A more unusual proposal is that the Behemoth is a dinosaur. The Apatosaurus is usually proposed since Behemoth was said to have a tail "like a cedar".

Leviathan
Behemoth

why close yourself to information that has been thoroughly researched and confirmed by having those with experience to review it he has done what every researcher should try to do, have "experts" in that field review the work and say what they think and apparently, he has met no resistance, except here.

Do you mean DC? I'd just like to see a couple of "expert" names thrown into the mix so I can look the dudes up for myself and read what they think on the subject. Right now I only have DC's take on it and without any research methods mentioned or any reference material other than the KJB, it all just looks like a fever dream for someone who's never seen anything like this anywhere before (aka, me).

If a single book could be THE truth, there'd only be one version of Bible (for example - mine's the New International Verson). So if DC's book is taken for A truth there must be other authors that have also seen the dragon's fire and written of it, in a positive light or otherwise. It'd just be interesting to compare what DC says with what's already been written. That's all.

If you were to read all of my posts on the subject, you would see that I have mentioned many more sources than the Bible. There are many more in the "Spirituality" section. No discussion of religion will ever provide conclusive "proof" of anying related to the supernatural. But I have conslusviely proven that various heavenly "creatures" of both Jewish and Early Christian theology are what we could call "dragons" by todays standards. But why should this seem so astounding, when virtually every human culture also believed in dragons, and most often placed them in their theologies as creatures of great wisdom, supernatural abilities, and servants to their Gods or the Gods themselves. Does this mean dragons must be real? No, no more than any other god or diety, though of all the dieities around the the, none are more universal than dragons. It is curious indeed that so much theology and legends could be based on nothing more than a few bones, or even the highly unlikely event that a few walnut brained dinosaurs miraculously servived extintction. But even if this were the case, why would people all over the world regard such an animal with benificent, god-like qualities?

[b] I've said before,if there were Dragons,great,if not , oh well just another old wives tale or one good pass along from generation to generation, none the less, there is nothing wrong with believing in dragons....or Bigfoot, lockness or unicorns ; why? because who is it Hurting? not me..

and im sure its not hurting anyone else, im sure we all have something funny or strange we believe in..

But this is exactly what you are trying to do....that and sell a book you are "writing".


Why should it seem so astounding?

HMM.... Let us see
WAIT! I don't remember seeing anything but your posts for references. Why is that?


True and even though I like dragons that does not make them real


European dragons (according to legend) were good?

That's what I find the most fascinating - not whether or not such a creature was ever flesh and blood (or whatever) but that the myths of dragons exist in so many cultures. Did everyone get their belief in the Dragon from the same original source (Sumerians was it?) or did they all arrive at such an idea independently? Why fire breathing flying ones here, and more reptilian snake-like over there.. What about this ountry's past, those people's experiences that would create such different creatures but end up calling them all by the same name?