dragons have always been portrayed evil, DC

Except Puff the Magic Dragon, frogfish.

And his friends, Yelekiah

Frogfish..frogfish...kid. He's saying that many of cultures have beasts that map together with common characteristics. That one post I heard you say just provoked me to write this more than anything I've ever seen in my life. You're what...13, 14? DC probably has about twenty more years rapped around his belt. To say they diffently don't exist and can't is the lines of the ignorant. A humans thoughts can't say anything doesn't exist or does. Also, I've never heard in my time here DC say specificaly "I think dragons exist and still do today" or anyother statement yet you decline his sayings to bias your opinion. This has probably already been stated but I don't care because I find it manditory.

Ok, having a Hindu father, I know about Hinduism, probably more than many others....So just stay out of that...Age doesn't matter with intelligence...I don't know where you got that notion....



I have...If I were you, i would actually read the threads...

"He's saying that many of cultures have beasts that map together with common characteristics."

yes, snakes and lizards do resemble dragons, but that doesn't mean hey are.

Your right Nadal, he probably is 13. That would explain a lot of things.

Zandore, I have had several books published already, all of them published in multiple languages, and one sold in many museums, but never with the object of making money. They are more a "labor of love". In "real life" I am a historian and museum director and don't need to crank out hack books to make money. In fact, publishing this one will probably cause no end of grief with all of the "Jesus-Nazis" who despise and attack anything that goes against their doctrine. The reason I have mentioned the book on this board was to get an idea of the interest and see if anyone can poke holes in the theories. So far, I have seen there is a lot of inerest, and the only ones really harrasing me are atheists who ridicule anything biblically-related, or juveniles, who know almost nothing about their own religion and make fools of themselves stating things that only compound their ignorance. If you care to read all my posts Zandore, you will see that I have quoted far more sources than the KJV. Since you really don't believe in any of this, I wonder why you continue your heckling. The KJV alone, and the original Hebrew it was translated from is more than enough to prove my points. But of course there is far more, and I have already mentioned many things. In fact, the last list in the crypto section mentioned serveral things not in the modern Bible, but scripural evidence nonetheless.

And no, Western Dragons were never "evil" until the Catholic church decided they should be and "rewrote" the bible to make Satan parallel the Zorastrian evil dragon Ahriman. In Greco Roman theology, exactly like Judao Christain, they were servant creatures of the Gods, guarding sacred places, being sent to devour enemies of the Gods, etc. Even in the classic Anglo Saxon tale of Beowulf, the dragon was a guardian and only attacked the humans after they stole part of the treasure it guarded. In modern times, Tolkien rewrote the same story, making the dragon evil, but like Frogfish they are both deluded, brainwashed catholics who have no idea that their Church was converted by its Greco-Roman converts from the teachings of a Jewish Rabbi to a mixture of pagan Greek and Zorastrian heresies that Jesus the Jew could only consider an abomination in the eyes of God.

As I said, Age does not reflect intelligence....for instance, DC is the most stubborn fool and idiot I have ever meet...he has not stated one word of proof, except for the Bible, which Zandore has said....an unreliable source...Unless someone already believed in dragons, I would marvel if someone started to believe from DC;s idiotic ramblings.

I do not consider 15 to be a kid.


The only thing DC has accomplished is to make a fool of himself by attacking me for his nonsense. yes, if you can't fool them DC, feel free to try to convince them I'm an idiotic...but just like all your other retarded nonsense, it won't work.


I wonder If you can recognize intelligence, because you have avoided every single point I have made against you...just thrown them out like the thick-skulled, one-dimensional conspiracist you are....


I would love to see youre sources, too bad you do not have any...


Use facts DC, F-A-C-T-S...not Opinion....opinion never gets you anywhere in a debate. First of all if you use religion as the only source, you have a very, VERY unstable basis...Second, your source is the most controversial, methaphoric book on Earth...remeber that!

Dragons could of just been derived from an earlier myth which represented them as evil, and the Bible then took that in. And that myth was based on Dino Bones, and Voila! the Dragon was born.

Thats a possible explanation/refutment for DC's theory. I bet others could find more.

It's also difficult to quote a book as "truth" when the book has been re-written, re-translated so many times, too. True?

I'm aware of the "colourful" past Christianity has, hence my hesitancy to follow it as a "faith" or belief system. Constantine and company had to build something around the beliefs that existed at the time, including feast days and holy days and all that. Which is why Jesus has a December birthday. It coincided with a day that was already earmarked for some type of holiday thing anyway. Handy, that. Taken as gospel truth, too. Christmas day. Gimme my presents...

I suppose the idea of dragons as evil would have something to do with reptilian behaviour of a sort anyway? Weird things, compared to us mammals... slimy, slithery things.. Can't be good so they must be evil...? Why did the devil come in the guise of a snake, anyway?

Enough of this 'zomg ur a kid lolol' stuff.
Yeah, he's 15. Yeeha. He's still bringing up excellent points. Just because he's 15 doesn't mean he's any less knowlegable.

Now, Nadal and DC, if age matters in an argument, all your points should be disacarded, as you're both acting like 2 year olds.

Grow up

As I have said many time Frogfish, no one can "prove" the existence of God or his angel and dragon servants. What I have proven, though I admit many biblical scholars alway knew it, including the greatest theologians of the catholic church, (whose names are meaningless to a child like you), is that the Seraphim and Cherubim of the Judaeo-Christian theology are not human-like "angels" but are winged reptilian creatures which both the bible and the catholic chruch have also referred to as "dragons". These are indisputable facts to anyone who bothers to check the original sources. And curiously, much of the rest of the ancient world also believed in these same Creatures as world wide legends confirm.
It is extremely curious that somebody who thinks himself a "Christian", even a child with little knowledge of the bible or his religion, would be so adamant in disbelieving in such such a major part of the Christian theology. To not believe in the dragons created by God is to not really believe in that God, and that the bible is a lie. In an earlier time it was a simple matter for the catholic church to keep its power over of the ignorant peasants with tales of evil dragons, but the church's own intellectuals and leaders knew the truth, as written in black and white. They recognized that dragons are part of the heavenly hierarchy, and write that such wonderous creatures (which in those days EVERYONE firmly believed in, was one of the great proofs of God's greatness. But these church writings, preserved and available for the common man to read nowadays, were only intended for other priests and theologians to read. The catholic church tried to prevent the common man from even reading the bible, that is why there was a "reformation" led by Martin Luther, but I am sure you have no idea what I am talking about. You see frogfish, you are one of the Church's unthinking peasant minions, exactly like those in the middle ages. They trained you well, for you have not bothered to read those writings that confirm everything I say. Instead you rant on this forum that I am making up all this stuff. Be assured little boy, I have made nothing up at all. The catholic church hierarchy, the Hebrew high priests, secular Bilblical historians all understand the the bible and related ancient religious texts state the the highest heavenly creatures of winged, fire spewing reptiles. They don't promote it because of the fear many people have for such things, BUT THAT"S THE WHOLE POINT KIDDO, GOD WANTED THEM TO BE SCARY!
The Bible clearly states "God created good and evil". Maybe he meant the dragons, for if you believe in the Bible's authenticity, God did command them to do deeds our modern sensibilities might consider evil (like wiping out whole cities, destroying the first born of Egypt, and possibly consuming a third of all mankind in the future if Revelations is true.)
Why don't you just go back to reading you dino kiddie books like raptor red you are so fond of, and stop cluttering this forum with your ignorant posts about something your brainwashing and programing make you incapable of understanding the simplists of Biblical truths. There are other, open minded people interested in these things, and wish to intelligently discuss them without the rude interuption of unruly children never taught to respect their elders.

And how old are you, Replacement?, 16? Anyone who could think frogfish brought up any point at all cannot be much more mature than him.

Sorry Frog I have to side with DC on this....the Chinese dragon is portrayed as good and benevolent, a good luck sign if you will.

I have to agree with Rep here. It's one thing to debate an idea's validity, and another to accuse someone of stupidity because of their age or assumed maturity level. Have a care, there.

I think I'm still going to disagree on the idea of dragons as DC describes their existence but I'm not going to mock the belief DC has in this theory. I don't have to agree with it nor believe it. It really makes no difference in my life what DC thinks about dragons. Fun to read about, though.

Its funny DC wants to belittle anyone who disagrees with his fairy tales.

I doubt you know anything about catholicism....Please look up the heirarchy of Angels...you will see that Seraphims are 6-winged, powerful angels, not reptiles.




Te only point you have made in that entire waste of the point is that I'm an adolescence and you're an "adult". Well, if you are certainly an "adult", start acting like one. You sure seem childish with you're " haha, sice I'm older, I'm smarter and you're dumb"... As I said...age doesn't matter...by the way you talk, I am DEFINITELY smarter than you are.



Oh, I'm sorry I'm posting the truth...I never knew I couldn't refute someone...
DC, if you don't like it, leave...I have just as much right as you have.



it will definitely be better than you're books


Sorry if I made you misunderstand me Zandore, I meant the in the Bible

Aaaaaaaannd... sometimes people just open themselves up for mockery...

Are you really going to stand where you're standing, DC, and claim Frogfish is a victim of "brainwashing and programing" when you're giving us so many reasons to think the same of you?

Said you: As I have said many time Frogfish, no one can "prove" the existence of God or his angel and dragon servants.

So what are you doing here if you can't "prove" this?

You say: It is extremely curious that somebody who thinks himself a "Christian", even a child with little knowledge of the bible or his religion, would be so adamant in disbelieving in such such a major part of the Christian theology.

Actually, if you're taking most of your theology out of the Old Testiment, all of that existed prior to Christianity and has little bearing on the life and death of Christ that Paul based his new world religion on. (see Colin Wilson - "Religion and the Rebel", p 142)

How do you dare stand there beaking about how you get treated around here and then say stuff like this: "There are other, open minded people interested in these things, and wish to intelligently discuss them without the rude interuption of unruly children never taught to respect their elders."

You don't have much respect for youth, either, so why on earth do you think you deserve any respect back?

I would like to "intelligently discuss" this stuff, but you're coming at this debate like you're the only one with the right answers and anyone who disagrees with your findings is deluded. We're not. It's okay if we don't approach the idea of Seraphim the same way you do. There's room here for both opinions.

and Age does not reflect Intelligence...you yourself proves that wrong (DC)

It is no point to even acknowledge the child, I gave him all the references from his own church and he hasn't bothered to read them.

I provide facts taken directly from ancient biblical scripturals and everyone else has only replied with personal opinions and gut feelings. I never said I can prove dragons exist, only that both the Jews and early Christians recognized them as a the highest heafenly creatures, and here there can be no doubt. I have quoted almost a doxen souces that plainly state this. But then I guess I could expect nothing more. fundamentalists believe the world is only six thousand years old despite all of the siceintiic evidence to the contrary. I see that I am dealing with the same kind of stupidity, and even fear, to look up the things that prove I am right.

If I have learned one thing from this, to put footnotes at the end of every chapter, for clearly, the average person is too lazy to look up anything on their own.

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium][size=2][color=#000099]
This is my very first post, so bear with me.
I thought this was a site for believers, prove me wrong will ya? You did. Just because you didn't personally see something with your very own eyes, or touch it. In this case, the latter is an exeption. That doesn't mean it does not exist. There is always something behind myths and legends. Though they may have been changed over the years, doesn't make the base fiction either.
I do believe they exist. I do not know of the fire part , and personally, do not want to experience it.

Okay... Oh good. a smiley exists for exhausted:

I have new appreciation for DC and his dedication to this dragon business. With help of a very entertaining annotated bible I did manage to track down several dragon related bits of the King James bible and compare them with my own New International version. I can't help but wonder, though, why it was decided to CHUCK every reference to dragons from my version of the bible* and instead refer, in those instances, to jackals and hyenas. There are no verses including unicorns (all wild oxen) nor the cockatrice (now just a viper) either.

Why oh why, do you think this stuff's been retranslated? Maybe because it's easier to believe that Jeruselem was beset and plagued by animals natural to the area, rather then dens of dragons (Jeremiah 9:11). Any claims to the existence of "fiery serpents" (Isaiah 14:29, 30:6) have been modified to regular plain old snakes/venomous vipers etc as well.

I went to see what Rahab (Isaish 51:9-10) was considered to be and discovered it's been either a dragon of the waters/ruler of the sea or guardian angel of Egypt. Or a demon. So, it's another one of those things that has many interpretations, like the bohemeth and Leviathan (called both a dragon of the sea, or simply monster of the sea rather than labelling it specifically, and is another creature whose existence as a real thing is debated).

* The only official mention of "dragon" by that name exactly was the one in Revelations (12:4, 13:1) with seven heads, 10 horns and seven crowns which, according to the prophesy, will be one of a number of creatures those left behind will idolize. The only reason this beast still exists in my version must be because of the last verses of the book itself - "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prohecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." (verses 18-19)

Who'd want that?

So, I say again... interpretations vary. DC, okay, you're cool, you're hip, you're probably spot on. But you do have to take into consideration that other versions of the Word are available and not everyone reads the same things into it that you do.

(now I'll actually go through the posts and see what I've missed since I posted last time...)

Let's look at part of Psalm 18 specifically, though.

David, overwhelmed and distressed is calling on God's aid and God comes to him:

"The earth trembled and quaked,
and the foundations of the mountains shook;
they trembled because he was angry.
Smoke rose from his nostrils;
consuming fire came from his mouth,
burning coals blazed out of it.
He parted the heavens and came down;
dark clouds were under his feet.
He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared on the wings of the wind." (18:7-10)

In the NIV there is no mention of cherubim being dragons, you see. Just that God takes them and flies. If anything might be considered the dragon here, it'd be God.

that is an interesting, interpretation, i see the creator as riding a creature of great power, that may be, by the way it is described as a dragon. Still cool.

i thought this would have died by now, but alas, it hasn't, so i will throw inmy two cents worth. The older versions of the bible hold several references to dragon-like creatures, as well as many other cultures and religious writings. And for those who say dragons are all evil, the European dragons, were seen as both good and bad, hence they were symbols of power; in China, they are beneficial, the emporer used it as his symbol; etc., etc.

And age is not of importance, however age determines how much one can learn and how they interpret that information, and coming out of adolescence myself, means i know that having my own beliefs challenged can be a frightening experience.

Intellegence is not how smart you are, but how you use the information you have at your disposal.

@Draconic Chronicler

You mentioned several times as fact, that it was recorded by witnesses, the rape of an elephant by a dragon. Could you point me to this document? I would also like to point out that Chinese dragons are not really similar to Western dragons. Chinese historians recorded dragons as events of celestial movements such as meteor showers. Frogfish is right, there are no animal in Hindu mythology that can be intepreted as dragons, except by vivid imagination. If you had statuette of a hindu dragon, could you post its image? The Cherubims and Seraphims were interpreted as winged bulls or lions by the ancient Levant people, i've no idea why you think it means dragons.

The bible is hard enough to used to prove the presence of God, trying to use it to substantiatethe existence of dragons .

Seems I've started quite an argument.

Yes Lucky, you probably haven't read all of my posts, but yes, many bibles have edited the dragons out, and young frogfish is a good example why. It is much easier to simply say all "dragons are evil" because Sataniel happened to be one, " even if it contradicts the Bible (which it surely does). What you have found, is only the tip of the iceberg tough, as my book reveals.

As for the David and Cherubim verse, several ancient illuminated manuscripts referring to this verse show God as a king riding on a fearsome fire spewing dragon. But in these cases, he is too dignified to straddle it like fantasy book "dragonrider", but sits on a throne that is attached to the dragon's back. I will include at least one original example of this in my book. There is no absolutely no question the original Cherubs were dragons. They are drawn in ancient art guarding the gates of heaven as winged reptilian dragons, and carefully described as such in the Book of Enoch, where the Seraphim are alos called dragons what this was always more definate by their very names. The ark of the covenant is gone, but authentic ancient depictions of the sacred 7 branch menorah show it also decorated with winged, reptilian Cherubim dragons. This is exactly why there are so many "sacred tree guarded by dragons" legends all over the world. They all stem from the orignal creation epic, but by the time the hebrews finally wrote their's down, the benificent dragon became the evil serpent.

On the other hand, the Zorastrian Persians stated that the Hebrew God was a terrible dragon. If there is a reality to these things, it may because the 'heavenly dragons" were free to harm the unbelievers. It is interesting that they credit the dragons to the Hebrews though, possibly becasuse of dragon retaliations of attacks on Jews. For example, Jewish texts mention a Persian governor of Babylon by name who was eaten alive in his bed by a dragon sent by God in answer to prayers because he was persecuting the Jews who lived there.

Lilmystick, I cannot prove dragons exist because as immortal heavenly creatures, there are no bones to prove their exisitence. But just like UFOs, of which we have no physical evidence, millions of people believe they are real, for over the centuries, everyone around the world believed they were real. I hope my book will do much to explain why the world believed in dragons. For if God is real, so must be his dragons.

Shai, there are many accounts and even an ancient Roman poem about dragons "embracing" elephants, and this can be seen in medieval beastiaries. Most accounts suggest they are merely trying to kill the elephant but I disagree, and explain what is really happening and why, in my book. There are certain souces of information which will only be explained in the book itself, and then you will understand why.

DW, my point about Frogfish's immaturity stemmed from his refusal to look up any of the sources I provided. Instead, he just continued to call me a fool and a liar and closed his mind to any of the information I provided. How can anyone converse intelligently with someone like that?


Don't worry Jeenuh, this dragon stuff was on several other threads before you even started this one. If you are interested, you may want to check out the archives, or access all of my posts. The other threads dragon threads are in paleontology and spirituality sections. These have become some of the hottest threads on UM becaue of the interest in dragons though.

Funny thing about dragons. I saw a show on the Discovery channel which portrayed what dragons would be like if they existed in the past. Really, it wasn't the hardest thing on Earth to believe.

Apparently paintings and murals done around the Dark and Middle Ages from places so unrelated as England, Asia, Africa, and even some Aboriginal art from Down Under showed very, VERY similar types of dragons that are approximated to be the same size.

Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not...

Then the misunderstanding was on my part....

Sorry Frog (I called my oldest that when he was young )
I thought you meant all dragons.

Do you have a "link" (that you can provide here on this forum) of at least one of these "ancient illuminated manuscripts"?


When making a statement like this you should provide a link to that information instead of telling us to "look it up yourselves" (it has a tendency to make you look bad).


But your statement^^ (quote before this one) says different.


But there are photos that are supposed to be UFOs and ancient cave paintings of them not to mention some of those old religious icons and paintings that you mentioned that portrays "classic shaped UFOs" (note DC the same sources you are using).


If you provided once what is wrong about posting the "links" a second time?


I have seen few if any online links in your posts.


Believe us....it is hard.


Yes they make for some good funny/fantasy reading

Thank you, Zandore. Saves me doing it...

Have you noticed that arguing with him is like trying to deal with a guy who believes Ebert has the only right interpretation of a movie and Roper, Berardinelli and everyone else listed at mrqe.com is not only deluded, but flat out wrong?

Art is always subject to interpretation. Those references to ancient art that "could be" aliens could also be the only remaining picts from a fictional story some ancient papa told his kids before bed... Angels with wings and halos as they are depicted in many churches and museum collections..dang..there was a reason they started being drawn like that. What was it.. dang. Had nothing to do with dragons, DC, so please don't weigh in.

The only point I was trying to get across to the guy is that other interpretations exist that bring the old beliefs into question. New translations that may be more accurate than older versions done so long ago. May be. I'm not saying they are. But please, DC, be open to the possibility that dragons are out of the new books for reason beyond "making it easier for the kiddies."

The arrogance you display here is disturbing and reminds me of the reason I'm not a practicing Christian of any kind anymore. That your way is the only right way when everyone else claims otherwise.

Thanks for illustrating the differences between Eastern and Western dragons, Shai_Hulud and DemonWatcher. Very illuminating and timely.

I can see how a celestial wonder like comets and asteroid shows could be considered dragons of a sort, considering what little knowledge there would have been about astronomy at the time.. Fires in the sky had to be the cause of something...

You were holding your own

Zandore, I'm not that good with computers, linking, and all of that. Plus I have done a considerable amount of research and will probably wait until the book is out before posting the images that will illustrate it.

It is not arrogance Lucky. I have researched a considerable amount of original source material and there can be no other conclusion. The scriptural evidence that establishes the dragons of the bible is no less convincing than that which establishes the human-like angels.
To me, the people who continue to deny these obvious facts are no less fools than if they claimed that there are no angels mentioned in the bible either. Dragons are an intregal part of the Judao-Christian theology for centuries, from the earliest times, though because they are unpalatable to modern Christians they are being rewritten out of it. You have discovered this yourself, and it really proves how "fake" many sects of Christianity really are. The Catholics thought they destroyed all of the copies of Enoch, for example, but it was discovered again in 1913 complete with Cherubim and Seraphim dragons. If you looked up all of the things I mentioned on previous posts, you would know it too. Does this prove dragons really did the the things the bible says. No, no more that anything about angels or anything else of a supernatural nature in the Bible. It only means dragons are "real", if the God that created them is real. But anyone who would suggest the overwhelming evidence is not there that establishes dragons being heavingly creatures in the minds of the ancient Bible writers, are just "tuning out" the solid scriptural and archaeological evidence. Ironically though, there is far more ancient universal belief in the existence of dragons, than the God, Jesus, angels, or anything else of a supernatural nature written in the Bible, yet this is the part some Christians wish to eliminate the most!

DC, all I will say is loom up the CATHOLIC HEIRARCHY OF ANGELS....Seraphim are not Dragons, they are Angels

You do not knw that Cherubim are Dragons, I have seen drawing where they are represnted like the Griffith...another powerful mythological creature

You just have to remeber that that was in Psalms, and not everything in the Bible should be taken literally...its a metaphoric book...Do you think the Parables really happened? How about Revelations?

See also over-bearing, haughty, disdainful, lofty, lordly, presumptuous, proud, supercilious, superior.

But I like you anyway. heh.

I hope you don't talk to everyone the way you talk to me. You know how offensive that'd be to just about everyone who claims to be Christian? Which sect is the true one? PM me about it, since it doesn't belong in here, and I don't particularily follow any of them anyway. Can't offend me if you want to elaborate.

I think it's probably beneficial to have numerous version of a book to refer to, considering the books reflect not just the time they are written of, but the thinking of the time, and also the thinking of those who've come after and done the translations. That people did decide to change some stuff, and I don't know when it got decided. Just that it was done.


And you know, this is the first thing I cheer about here. If God is real then dragons are real. If dragons are real, then so are unicorns and the cockatrice and since God does appear to admit there are other gods to choose from (but choose me, or suffer horribly), that frees up the possibility that every creature of myth has also existed - chimera, pegasus, the centaur, the minotaur. All of them. I think that's cool.


And I agree with you here, too. Yes, there's evidence right there in the KJV that people once believed that God had power over dragons. Call me a convert.

Do you think, though, that it's actual dragons they speak of in those verses, or are they witnessing something so far beyond their ability to comprehend it that they have to call it "dragon" on account of having no idea what else it could be?


Based on what I've learned so far of other cultural representations of dragons, I'll go with that too. It is pretty amazing that the same kind of creature/archetype pops up everywhere.

As to the bible stuff, I think it just goes to show that interest in the bible as something to study and learn and read is waning. Tranlators and the like might have chosen these particular verses to alter because changing them wouldn't change the meaning of the story as originally told. But, by eliminating the mythical, the end result is rather ordinary and bland, like oatmeal.

How many Christians read the old testament, though? (PM me about that, too, instead of in here). The bible seems to be the only book in the world that's treated like a buffet table. Take the bits you like and leave the brussel sprouts.. heh. (This is not a dragon topic though, so I won't say more about that.)

Who knew I'd ever agree with DC...Call Ripley's!

dc dont bring religion into this debate. you dont need religion to back you if you done research on dragons' do you?....some facts about dragons at How Reality Made Myth
real dragon in this world

Cherubims are not Dragons, this link Cherubim, The Pre-Biblical Origins of shows the possible evolution of their concept, from a Levant interpretation of the Egyptian sphinx to various form. There are also several ancient rendition of Cherubim and none of them looked Dragon like. The ancient form for Cherubim also does not mean Dragons but something else entirely. Also ancient Babylonian mytholgy does not identify cherubims with dragons, the murals on the gate of Ishtar clearly differentiates Cherubims(winged bull/lion creaures) as such, the gate depicts a dragonlike creature but that creature is clearly seperate from Cherubims.

Thanks for the site suggestion. This is good...

edit: really really good. Answered my art question in the process as well.. man..this is excellent..

Problem with the typical dipictions of dragons in books:

They show dragons as four legged creatures, with the wing joint right above the front leg shoulder. Therefore, thre is not enough muscle for the wing. If you look at bird muscle structure, their whole chest is packed with muscles purely dedicated to the wings. In the dragon case, the wing muscles will not be big enough because the front legs also require some muscles, and they are below the wings.

Also, if following the darwin rules, you would be saying that dragon evolved from six leged reptiles/ mamals. Bird's wings evolved from the front legs of the dinosaur. Bat's wings evolved from the front legs of a mamal.

How does a bee fly? Isn't it always the joke that it should be impossible for bees to get their bodies in the air, yet they still can...

There were lizards and mammals that had six legs?

(Unless wing evolution has nothing to do with legs...Archeopteryx comes to mind, or pteradons.. but this isn't the arena for those critters. )

I suppose it's all the fault of art anyway.

There is a square
There is a rectangle inside the square
There are two squares within the big square
There is a triangle above the square.
There is a rectangle on the triangle.

Pretend you're drawing what I've described here. Done?

Does it look like a child's depiction of a house with a door, two windows, a roof and a chimney?



If it does, you did it wrong.


*lol*


Hence the trouble with hearing/reading of something described and actually attempting to render it artistically. If no one can agree the thing exists, how can we draw it?

Excluding biblical creatures, (and Bruce Lee, but good one!) what dragon has ever been "correctly" illustrated? Since no one exists who can say "I saw one" and be believed, where did the western idea of a dragon as nogard describes it come from?

We could describe Pegasus the same way, yet he flew and helped defeat Chimera.

I guess we could argue that while we understand the mechanics of bird flight (muscular, etc) as being something different than the mechanics of glide flight (which just needs a high enough cliff or ledge and a long enough wing span), we really have no useful knowlege about dragon flight. To assume it'd have anything to do with way birds do it (they have hollow bones, btw..helps keeps the weight down) might be inaccurate.

I ask this in complete honesty; why such hostility to the idea that dragons may well have existed, especially since so many cultures, past and present believe in such a creature?
don't get me wrong it would be cool if they existed, but why so much hostility, especially from you frog boy?

even if half of what DC has researched is correct, that is still a volume of information that many of us would not touch for fear of learning something that challenges our current views and bias(schemas).

I thin i realy should read the whole thread, but the book that DC is talking about sounds realy interesting!

When is it going to be out, and were, and how much $ (about)


PS my nick is dragon backwards

Likely around Christmas.

my roommates nickname among others is Dragon, he has that on our door.

i can vouch for that.

besides, dragons have been described as both good and bad, even in europe.

This is off topic but I want to ask DC how he can use this train of thought to prop up his Dragons, yet totally disregards other creatures exactly the same (Bigfoot). Seems like a double standard to me


Yes DLOH I know you posted this but I have seen DC say exactly the same

greasy sweet,

however not every culture on earth believes in Bigfoot or creatures similiar, except maybe for extraterrestrials(ufo's), have such a wide spread belief in something that can span the decades, though the belief in dragons spans several millenia and continents.

I can say exactly the same for dragons



Sounds like Bigfoot to me

I beg to differ - try taking a look around the respected Scientific community to see how many of them actually devote personal and FUNDED time to investigating and experimenting with theoreticals out of science fiction. For example, quantum particle theory, quarks, teleportation, lasers - need I go on?

Science is an open ended stream of theory, thought and time.

Are we creatures of matter, light, or thought? YES

http://www.nidsci.org/essaycomp/gmatloff.html

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundam.../quantum-world/

http://www.theory.caltech.edu/


ANYWAY - people can Google and all that for themselves.;I think I am digressing somewhat from dragons...

You don't have to look further than Chinese Imperial records to find live walking chewing scaled dragons... not the flying or fire-breathing kinds though. But Fire-breathing - I won't rule out the possibility, rather the likelihood.

HOw is it possible for an animal to breath fire it would just explode itself in the action....and now way an animal could create fire.....uness u mean a robo-dragon then

If they do not, or have not ever existed, then why of all of the documented sightings, throughout the millennia? They may not breath fire, but that does not mean they do not exist.
I may sound like a diehard believer, but just because science can't prove it doesn't mean it's not true.
Look at evolution, and all of it's gaps, or even physics.

Where are the modern sightings? Santa has been sighted. Is he real?