then the ability to use fire would make sense, to be able to get themselves off the ground would make more sense given their immense size, if they were biologically based creatures.

They sure are, I know a few.. Shh!
There is so much in the world that the human race does not know of.. its kinda sad. but its for their own good.

** i dont really look at this so if anyone wants to rply to my comment send a messege. thanks

Dragons actually might of been another creatures from another planet, extreemely intelegent and hag greater powers than us.

If a dragon would die, the others would take it away to be burried on its own planet.

yeah my roommate is a damn dragon, pardon my language.

Having a dragon as a roomate can suck, you know, they burn the drapes, don't replace all the Cheetos they eat, and go to the bathroom in my closet.

What is it with you and your extremely intelligent dragons?

First we had 'zippo, the wind-up sparking dragon'... But now, for your viewing pleasure ladies and gents..... it's Mysterio, Dragon from Another World! (small fanfare)

[Curtain draws back, appreciative oohs and aahs from the audience]

Wag from the audience: Er, where is it?

Nogard: Well, I just made it up.

Wag: The emperor has no clothes!

Nogard: Well, they're VERY intelligent.

Wag: Intelligent enough to use a spellchecker? Or do they have alien Hags as well?

Nogard:....

Wag: Besides, if they die and have to go back to their home planet, where are their space ships? Where's this space ship that you failed to mention?

Nogard: er, I, um. *ahem* Ladies and Gentlemen, the exhibit is now closed, if you can all go out the exits we'll be open again tomorrow with a NEW dragon that DOES NOT have a space ship. (glares at wag)

Wag (muttering while leaving): Thought he was going to connect dragons and UFOs there for a second....

...must ..correct....can't let...

Smaug's in the Hobbit. He had all the gold, that's where Bilbo got his Mithril vest from on his quest that Gandalf pushed him into with the Dwarves..


*sigh...*

Such a compulsion..

(edit: Rest of post was interesting and reflected what i'd said about mechanics of flight earlier with nice examples. Just couldn't let this boo-boo slide!)

well, I went to see the picture and, skeptic as I am, I'm just thinking it's a case of "Pictures never lie but eyes do". Just looks like a rock formation to me. That it happens to "resemble" anything is a rorshack kind of happening. Sure, it looks vaguely dragonish with the clouds in the way and all, but there are rocks that look like faces and elephants and whatever all else, all depending on how you look at it (vase/two faces, yeah?)

I believe there are some lizards that may have given rise to the notion of dragons. Perhaps a large, extinct cold-blooded creature that possibly even had flying abilities. I wouldn't bet on the fire-breathing kind though.

But of course, my knowledge on the subject is limited to AD&D It's shaky, at best

Regards, PA

quite interesting... topic is still on

I was gone to visit relatives who do not own a computer over the three day holiday, and see the dragon thread is alive and well.

I hardly know where to begin, but.....

Cherubim, the "form" of these guardian creatures continue to evolve, but the earliest depictions of this creature in Sumerian art from 3,000 BC is a winged, quadrepedal, reptilian dragon. The hebrews came from this region, and all of the reptilian descriptions in biblical literature confirm this was the creature they were referring to. The Sacred 7 branch menorah in ancient sculpture is decorated with winged reptilian dragons, strongly suggesting that the Cherubim on the Ark were exactly the same thing. The guardian Cherubim in the book of Enoch had serpent like heads full of sharp teeth. Several passages state they spew fire and brimstone.

Using the bible as a guide then, I suggest that the ignition system for a dragon's fire spew is phosphorous, which ignites when exposed to air. Brimstone is variously described as sulphur or phosphorous. It might ignite methane or hydrogen gas outside of the dragons body by snorting a bit out of a gland in the nostrils, exactly as iguanas snort out unneeded salts. Even if this is not feasible, several real scientists in different books and TV programs have presented testable ways it would be possible for a living animal to spew fire.

But this is pointless to the argument, for if they are heavenly creatures as the Bible attests, we can assume they possess some supernatural abilities we do not understand, including the ability to fly, much as other Biblical beings seem to have the ability to "levitate" such as Jesus in his accension. Perhaps frogfish believes this never happened either, and all of Jesus alleged miracles were simply "metaphors".

It is undeniable that Seraphim means a "flying, fiery serpent" in Hebrew. The exact Hebrew word useed in Isaiah is used earlier to describe the creatures God sends to punishs the Israelites, and even in Greek translations as well the Seraphim are called "dragons". Modern Christians who have translated the word in any other way are simply liars, who cannot come to grips that the hebrews and early Christians all acknowledged that dragons were heavenly creatures. The Bible plainly states this, other ancient bibical literateure not part of the modern bible also confirms this, dozens of examples of ancient Christain art confirm it. Why would a church make a huge mosaic floor depicting God on a seat of living Cherubim dragons if they did not believe this? Why is is the creature sent by God to swallow Jonah ALWAYS portrayed as a dragon in ancient Chirstian artwork?. Why do dragons sing praises to God in Psalms and do the same thing but are called Seraphim in Isaiah? In the Apocolypse of Baruch, dragons are clearly stated to reside in Heaven, and their purpose is to devour the wicked. There is no room for any other interpetation in all of these accounts.

It is rather amusing that a 14 year old kid thinks he knows more about Catholic theology than the greatest minds of his own Church who recognized that dragons were heavenly creatures, but stated so in chruch literature never intended for the ignorant masses of followers, who in those days couldn't read anyway, and they kept the bible in latin, never in the common tongue of the people, as was changed by the protestants during the Reformation of the 16th century.

Angels as well as dragons are never considered "spirits" in the Old Testament. This is a new testament allusion to the pagan Greco-Roman spirit creatures (demons, good and bad) that the early Christians believed in due to thier pagan upbringings. The "real" angels of the old Testament are always physical beings, indistinguisahable from normal young men, who eat food and do not have wings. The only winged creatures in a Biblical context are the Cherubim and Seraphim "dragons". For the Christians who have perverted the New Testament scriptures with so many pagan ideas, they should recall that Jesus endorsed the Old Testament as the true word of God, complete with its dragons.

Its rather amusing that a grown man believes in dragons.

and this topic is bout dragons?weird, i thought it was a sceptic convention

YES!

I like them but I do not believe in them.

well, what if i thnk that fairytales were true?



(my further coment might not all be relevant to this topic)(I, Personaly, am a great supporter of the summerian religion(i am not saying that i believe in all of it, but some stuff really screw around with your brain) and therefore, i belive in the nibiru or the twelfth planet theory. What if the inhabitants of the planet were dragons?



Isnt that what you could say for the dinosaurs too? Who knows how to put the skeletons together? It's not like they ever seen them. It's all guess work. Maybe educated, but there is still a 5%(about) chance of being wrong. Why cant i build my own theory on the existence of the dragons? What if i will be right?




Why cant they be???



i dint have a lot of time! I only use it when i write major reports.



who needs ships when they have magical powers?



Well you thought right

I mean not the ufo's that there are reports of in the present, but the ufos that there are reports of in the past. I mean like a couple of thousand of years back.

That's SKEPTIC, and when one makes ludicrous claims, we must try to bring forth....COMMON SENSE!

haven't you heard, common sense is dead. sad really, he got shot with the "truth" and well we know where that ended.

'Tis also amusing that you make claims involving the catholic Church, yet, you know nothing about their theology...

I know far more about it than you ever will little boy. That's why I have written a 600 page book about the dragons firmly believed in by the catholic church, and you never even heard about this until you started reading my posts. It is very clear that you simply have no idea about most of the things I am talking about, including the dragon-related writings of the greatest theologians of the catholic church. I hate to tell you this, but you really aren't going to learn about these things in your Sunday School classes.
There is so much overwhelming evidence that dragons are an intregal part of the Judao-Christian theology, including Catholicism, to deny this, you are essentially denying the authenticity of the rest of your religion.

Please go back to your kiddie dino books and stop interupting adults with you ignorant, pointless remarks. You have demonstrated time and time again that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and you have made no attempt to educate yourself.

Draconic Chronicler - is that book you wrote available in shops?

android,
It will be available at all the major book stores, though no guarantee they will stock it. You could order if from the internet, and there will Ebooks and a sample chapter. I will also have a website with additional information. I hope to get it wrapped up my Christmas, and will mention it here when ready.l

Lets please keep the name calling (from both sides) out of here.


Are these the same theologians that thought the world was flat and every thing revolved around the earth?


Did you know that the validity of the Bible is coming under question more and more in the past few years.


Pleas read the rules: UM Rules
You will see that this is an open forum. He Has just as much right to post as you and I do.


Just as you have "demonstrated time and time again" that you have zero tolerance for those that do not believe as you do.

He has also demonstrated time and time again that this is all about promoting a book.

I never thought i'd be this entertained by a post on "dragons"... this is great, froggy, DC, keep it up, this is great!


(though I do have to ask why you get so defensive over a 15 year old, kids will be kids.)




Mind Freak 20:12






PEACE

You? the Idolist? knows more about Catholicism....If you did, you would see my points and stop making a fool of your self... Go check out the Catholic Heirarchy of Angels...Plus, puting words on paper doesn't mean anything.....I could write a 1000 page book if I wanted too...its how others react to your ideas...


That is because you fail to open your mind to other ideas and points....Its useless to argue with a thick-skulled, adamant, naive "child" like you...


I see you fail to recognize intelligence and the word "leisure" and "fun"...
You have no concept of inelligence, I would love o see what you say to Mozart when he was 7, a child prodigy...I bet you would probably tell him to stop wasting others time, and piano is for "adults" ,not "kids".


And you have demonstrated that you are not open to others and their ideas, and that causes your ignorance and harshness towards others with excellent points...

Frog boy, you are the closed minded one, he is simply pointing out a different way to view your "religion", besides to believe that dragons exist and find written evidence of it is noy idolitry, idolitry is worshipping a symbol, which at last check christians pray to a statue of Jesus on the crucifix, am i not correct? By that, i am saying you young man are also a idoliter by definition. as we all are guilty.
(pardon my language here), what the hell does mozart have to do with anything, mozart was poor child and his parents exploited him. plain and simple.

Now both of you knock it off with the childish aruments, you are both acting immature, and give up the name calling would you.

::Pops up inbetween DC and FrogFish, holding TNT plundger. Cackles insanely, pushes it down causes explosion. Cackles more.::
Anyways! Now I silenced the two fighters. Dragon's where and where not real. They where there, but where not there.
Sailors found weird lizards, with tonuges that pop out of there mouthes, and where like. "OMFG!!11!! DWAGON!"
And how do you know Dragon's couldn't be three headed?
I am a believer of the dragons. If I could find one, alive, I'd probably blow it up like with DC and FrogFish. With out Dragons, we wouldn't have the following Dragon stars. Dudly the Dragon, Spyro the Dragon, La Chow Dragon, Drake the Dragon, Draco the Dragon, King Ghidorah, Oorchi the Eight headed Dragon, Manda, Godzilla, Rodan, Anguirus, Baragon, Puff the Magic Dragon, Fred the Dragon, and alot of RPG dragons.

Ghidorah and Oorchi, two famous multiheaded dragons, that if you go back to Japan's oldest beliefes, where gods. The golden dragon, Ghidorah, was a protector, but TOHO's movie buissness made him evil.

Dinosaurs could have interacted with Dragons. Just not very....well... as my... Second file explains... BUT!
Dragons and Fire: Possible, doubtfull, but possibly, it'd just didn't come out of there head if you know what I mean. 'Ring o Fire.'

Have you not been reading my posts? The points I tell DC, who just ignorantly pushes them away?


Not by the Catholics...idolism is worshipping something other than God...like Baal in the Old Testament



DC thinks children have no intelligence....
I think you are thinking of Beethoven...Mozart learned without the pressure of his parents...

God, just stop calling me a kid! Since whoever brought that up, no one listens anymore!

[quote]Have you not been reading my posts? The points I tell DC, who just ignorantly pushes them away?[/quotes]
i have, and all i see is childish bickering, you both need open up your heads to ideas that challenge, especially you Frogboy, you are a young man, you should have more common sense than this.
[quote]Not by the Catholics...idolism is worshipping something other than God...like Baal in the Old Testament[/quote]
yes even by catholics, and idolitry is defing as worshipping a symbol of a god or person.
[quote]DC thinks children have no intelligence....
I think you are thinking of Beethoven...Mozart learned without the pressure of his parents...[/quote]
he never said that, you are putting words in his mouth, and mozart died young in his early twenties, his parents did push him, Beethoven died in his late thirties, plus this man was partially deaf.

and no one has called you a kid in two weeks, but you are acting like an adolescent, just be more tolerant of others, and they will return it, what goes around comes around.

Read DC's post...




Yet, no one has looked up the Heirarchy of Angels...
My name is Frogfish, not FrogBOY...




Yes he did...
That's not the point, the point is that he was a child prodigy...BEETHOVEN parents pushed him to be LIKE MOZART


Look in the Bible, when Moses comes down from Mt Sinai....forgot the book...

Frogfish, you're younger than me. Kid. I'm FIFTEEN! OOOOOOOO!

Yet, I make more sense and argue more intelligently than you...instaed of making smart-alec remarks...

Y'all don't know when to stop...do you?

I usually use these as ammo, thanks for reloading for me. Smart Alec... Hm... SMART alec. Not something to be said to someone older than you. Is it?
Anyways, how could dragons fly? Go back to my "Ring o Fire" Theory. They flew by.... Gas releshed from the bowels.

I assure you that there is a joke forum in thise website...under General off-Topic Discussion

This is still good and all...but where is the FIRE in the arguments?
Frogfish, you are a kid, and no matter how much it bothers you when people call you one, you knew that by coming to this forum, people would judge and ridicule you (it's kind of a given when you want to state your own opinions). But i believe age doesn't matter. Just look at me, I'm 10.





Mind Freak 20:12







PEACE

OK, i'm not 10, but still...







Mind Freak 20:12







PEACE

Frogfish, i call you frogboy, because to me you are a boy. besides, i am jesting you, i like giving people who like to argue with me nicknames, makes it seem more friendly.
so don't take offence. and being smart-asses is what we are good at, dont go knocking our fun. relax and get that rod out of your butt.

Now dragons are supposed to be large, beautiful and ugly beings that either fly, or walk, they are intellegent, etc.

Ok ppl!

Stop it now!

Frogfish, if you will keep this up, i will have to report to the admin and the mods. This is not the place to be settling your differences. Just go and create a new topic "Frogfish Vs DC" in the General Off-topic Discussion section. Thes is a dragon Topic, not a fight Topic

You can comeback when you have somting nice to say.

Nd BTW, what happened to captain Cinquo? He still didnt critisize my latest on-topic *glare at Frogfish* post!

A little off-topic here, but you're mostly wrong. Christians do not pray to the crucifix (most don't anyway - I'm sure there will be some who do). Catholics pray to the Mother Mary, one reason I am not Catholic, but Christians pray to Jesus himself, without the need of bowing down to a carving made of wood or stone or metal.

Regards, PA

Edit: By the way Frogfish, you are punching above your weight. Giving a good go at it, but I think this might be a fight you're better to walk away from.

Frogfish,
It is probably because you certainly are a "kid" that you do not realize you are adding nothing to this discussion except derisive attacks that prove your immaturity, simply because you have it fixed in your mind from Sunday School that anything connected with dragons is "evil". Because of your beliefs, you have simply put down everything I say and claim I am making it up.

I have a right to be angry with you because everything I have said is based on careful research. Your remarks scoffing this research is the mark of a rude, ignorant person. You have already said you do not want to believe in any of this, so why don't you just shut up and let other people discuss these things witout your rude interference, since you have never contributed anything to these discussions.

Whether you like it or not, the Bible clearly states fire spewing, winged reptilian creatures (we now translate into the word "dragon") are in the Bible, and not in an allegorical sense, but as real, heavenly creatures. And there were many more references to these creatures before they were edited out as my research has proven. The greatest theologians of the catholic church accepted they were a kind of heavenly creature, and recognize Satan was one of these creatures in a very real, non-allegorcial sense.

You have made absolutely no points with your attacks. You really have no knowledge on this subject which you amply demonstrate every time you post on this topic. You simply don't like what I am saying so you are making pointless derogatory remarks because in your adoloescent mind you somehow think I am "attacking" your religion. If you really don't believe you are an immature little boy, STOP ACTING LIKE ONE, and maybe we will believe you.

Hey DC. earlier on in this thread u mention a book u've writtin about dragons. Whats the title and where can i find this book. I would like to read your thoughts on the subject, without having to read the arguments going back and forth in this thread.

Beserker,
Welcome to UM, and sorry about the rudeness of a few individuals who mindlessly attack anything that goes against their religious beliefs (including atheism).

The book is just getting ready to go to the publisher now. One of the reasons I have discussed it on these forums was to share ideas, and possibly get some insight from others. I am glad to see there has been a lot of interest.

I will announce the book here when it is available. If you want more information about these ideas, I believe you can access all of my posts without the derisive comments from the "peanut gallery".

I'll be sure to look 4 it. Do u have a title yet? (sorry about the sig still waiting to get it resized)

Beserker,
Title is not decided yet, as it will be the same as a website being developed which will have additional information, forum, extra illustrations, etc.

When ever someone asks you for info you say "you can access all of my posts" or something of that nature....Why not just answer it? How hard can it be? Unless there is a reason you can't!.

Yeah, usually i would have to agree with you about the immaturity, but this little "fued" made this whole topic great! I love when people defend their beliefs in an aggressive nature, it makes for good entertainment. Plus i do it sometimes too, when people say uneccesary things to me, or about me...I get all defensive, it's fun...








Mind Freak 20:12









PEACE

Historical accounts of dinosaur-sized animals are being dismissed as mythological because these animals are assumed to have gone extinct millions of years ago. We use "Dinosaur" in reference to a group of large reptilian animals as did the term dragon previously. reptiles can go a long time between feedings...

I'm sorry, i had to reply to this again... You haven't been here that long, and the more i read this post by you, the more i feel i need to ask: why do you sound like my middle-school teachers?
I don't think your a mod (unless you're using a different name), so stop treating people like kids (well some of us are) but, for having 33 posts here, you sure do feel like you own this place, huh? Now stop being bossy or i'll have to report you to the mods...
They were just giving there sides of view on the matter. They just didn't agree with each other, that's when arguments happen. And the arguments here aren't even bad, just disputes over which opinions are more logical.

This isn't military school, allow SOME fun. Plus, if the mods didn't like the way this was going, they would close it. Be sure of that!











Mind Freak 20:12











PEACE