Well, Frogfish, I guess we have to prove your complete ignorance of the Bible for the 100th time. I know exactly what Ezekiel says about the Seraphim. He says they have wings (like a dragon), that they have arms/forelimbs (like a dragon), and that they have legs (like a dragon). He says absolutely nothing about them having human features, though there are several other passages that mentions their dragon-like qualities. Since when do humans have wings, frogfish?. Nowhere in the bible does it say angels have wings, only the Seraphim and Cherubim dragons. You keep ignoring the most basic point. Seraphim in Hebrew means a fiery and flying serpent. There is nothing to debate here. The catholic idea of winged angels is a complete fantasy inspired by the pagan greco Roman gods which they blasphemously added to the Judao-Christian theology.

As for one of the Summas of St. Thomas Aquinas he said of Satan: "This dragon which thou hast formed, he who was more excellent than all the rest, became the greatest in malice."

This proves that to St. Thomas, one of the greatest Catholic theolgians, that Satan was not a symbolic dragon, but a real dragon as Seraphim and Cherubim actually are, and it implies there were more of them than Satan, and that none of the rest were necessarily "evil".

St. Thomas knew this because he used the same ancient sources as I have found. For example, in the Apocolyspes of Baruch, Baruch asks an angel about dragons he sees in Heaven and the angel responds:
"The dragons devour the wicked, and are nourished by their bodies." Then the Angel later states that "The bellies of the dragons are hell".

This is probably the "Wyrme" Jesus talked about tormenting the evil, not some tiny maggot in imaginary Pagan Greek Hades, but tormented by the heavenly dragons.

Enoch describes the Cherubim with serpent like heads full of sharp teeth and huge glowing eyes like lanterns. Enoch also describes the seraphim as dragons.

Virtually every culture has Sacred Trees guarded by dragons. The Hebrews do too, only they call their dragons Cherubim.

In every illustrated ancient depiction of God riding the Cherubim, they are fire breathing dragons. Doesn't that make more sense than riding on the back of some kind of human angel. It almost seems obscene. Plus, no angel in the Bible has wings, they look like normal young men and are mistaken for men. Winged human angels are a Catholic imitation of pagan Greco Roman Gods.

In every ancient depiction of the creature who swallows jonah it is not a fish or whale, but a cherubim dragon, exactly like the ones that decorated the sacred 7 branch menorah, which is proved by ancient depictions of it. Why would they be on the holiest of Jewish temple furniture if they were the symbol of Satan? These dragons were also placed on the ark because dragons are fearsome guardians in every human culture. The praying winged angels on Sunday School arks are a complete fantasy for which ther is absolutely no shred of evidence.

Give it up frogfish, you have no idea what you are talking about, and the catholic church is feeding you a line of bull, because it is easier for them just to say "dragons are the symbol of Satan, and are evil, yadda yadda yadda." Do you really think they want to teach in Sunday School that the highest heavenly creatures are man-eating, fire spewing dragons? No, of course not, they are having enough trouble as it is with the boy-raping priests and silly demonic excorcism nonsense, not to mention the educated people of today that clearly see that the Catholic doctrine is filled with pagan Greco-Roman and Zorastrian theology, like your winged human angels taken directly from Pagan Rome.

How dare you call me an "idolator" for simply bringing to light a very interesting aspect of real Judao-Christian theology. It has nothing to do with idols. On the contrary, there is no question that the Catholic Chruch has more "idols" than every other Christian sect combined. Every car in Latin America has little idols of Jesus and Mary on their dashboards. I bet you have some of these idols yourself, since you claim to be such a good catholic.

From many of you posts, it is clear to everyone that you really think highly of yourself, like you are some kind of "boy genius". But your total inabilty to grasp any of this after hundreds of posts proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are just a "dumb kid", and the more you talk, the dumber you look. Change your call-name and stick to the dino section and people might forget you are a silly little kid with an enormous ego and no common sense. I normally wouldn't talk this harshly to a child, but you are really a foul mouthed little brat with no respect for your elders. I thought they would have at least taught you that in Sunday School.

wow, that fight just took and interesting turn, just keeps getting better and better doesn't it.

Very well said DC, with that, Frogfish, you demand respect, yet you give none in return or in kind.
Dragons are part of your heritage, believe it or not, it is true, don't be so closed minded kiddo, and get used to being called out on your age, becuase it will happen when you can't clearly atriculate what you want to say, with that said...

DC which texts, have you seen personally, in both hebrew and english?

Read the first chapter of Ezekial, in any Bible...The King James, the Protestant, the Adventist, the Catholic...anything....then you might get some common sense knocked into your head.



Or hell really exists...As I said...Read Ezekial...If you still can't find it, I'll quote it.....DOn't forget the links I posted a page back...


Why not....riding a dragon is just as obscene as riding a 4 winged powerful angel...



Ah, where is Mind Freak now??? How about you Nogard?
Hmmmmm...I'm pretty sure he just attacked me there (religiously too)...


First of all, I don't go to Sunday School...
Second I think you got it mixed around...your ego has a too strong control over you....you think you are the most high, the almighty, better than everyone else....you do not deserve to post...all you have said so far in your rude stay here at UM is deragatory marks at me, nothing more.....You are a coward, nothing else...Normally, I wouldn't talk like this to "one of your stature" (for all I know, you could be another "kid") but by your remarks and attacks, you deserve no more respect than a convict...No scratch that, a convict deserves more than you do...
I won't go any farther about DC's foolishness ( I could go on for days), But beeing as close-minded as "Freakhead" and "Nobrain" over there...they're going to start whining and saying "DC is perfect, you are evil...." and so on....

FROGFISH,
Back down now before your ego is badly injured it can't heal itself, you seem to lack the maturity required to hold a civilized discussion.
Wait, when did we start chastising the young-un here?

I told y'all that they wouldn't mind DC's endless attacking...but Frogfish? Noooooooooooo....if he says anything, its an attack...

Again...In the Bible, even Non-Catholic Bibles...
Seraphim are regarded as humanoid, six-winged "angels"
Cherubim are humanoid, four-winged "angels"

See my previous links.....

Froghead, I am not looking foolish, you are looking foolish for blabbing that whole that never closes. SHUT UP unless you have something good to say other than ranting on about how other people are looking foolish, and attacking you. You need to get your head checked out. I am not changing your words around either, what you say is what you say, and all of it is s***. Now grow up, and move on with your life.



plus you need to learn how to post!






Mind Freak 20:12












PEACE

i don't remember any links, besides the bible doesn't refer to them as humanoid, it refers to them as winged beings, not winged humans, and i have read that bloody book, even have a copy, and i have studied things of biblical nature in the past, and none of my questions were ever answered. so much for defending that thousand page sleeping pill.

Froggy
If you don't want people to attack you, stop opening up the whole in your face.











Mind Freak 20:12













PEACE

Look back a few pages please...

Read Ezekial 1:5-12

and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body.

from the NIV

Please all stop...and get on topic....if you were smart as you claimed, you would of gotten on topic

so what you are saying is that looked like a cross between the mythical chimera, and a mythical manticore, the latter one having the face of a man.

5"In appearance their form was that of a man,"

really at last check, that was changed during the dark ages, the last great editing of the bible (the last days of the templar knights). you put some much faith in a book that hasclearly and historically been shown to have been corrupted, by church officials.

These verses can be found in any bible.......

not any bible, remember some of them ( well most of them really) have undergone some sort of editing, to make them what we see, and besides you have not convinced me that all the angels are humanoid, becuase i know for a fact, that Greco-Roman mythology influenced the early christian followers, this has been written into history, and is as solid a fact as granite.

I believe in dragons. The mythical ones.

Nice job Mindfreak!!! Two new names!!!

Now for frogfish:

I am not online 24/7, as i am a grownup human being, who has more important matters to take care of than to fight with a little slimy croaking offspring. I realy think you should learn to respect people older than you, because they might have quite a bit o' influence over your life. Secondly, you should learn how to quote in a forum (it is realy hard to figure out where the quote ends, and where it starts. Thirdly, I heard enough of your angel poop, and I think you should really stop. And lastly, get a life. You seem to be spending more time on this forum a day than all of us put together. Dont you have school to attend to?

Have a good time in grade nine learning to respect the people around you.

Ta-ta!

And BTW Tadpole,

You should really read "the davinci code".

It has some interesting information relating to the bible, although it might be too much for your undeveloped brain to handle.

frogfish, or what ever you call yourself, you seem to be of two minds, one that can be mature, and the other is just like a kid, who thinks that his friend just stole his favorite toy, and fights about it all the time.
grow up a little, and when you get to college, you are in for a shock, no one thinks like you do, and if they do they do so from different circumstances.

I find it disgusting that members of this forum has resorted to name calling and personal attacks against Frogfish. Attacking the opponent instead of the arguement is a fallacy in logic and despicable aswell. The oldest source in the bible for Seraphims was given by the prophet Ezekial, the description mentioned in the Bible for Seraphims were non draconic in appearance. Several of the sources posted were pre-biblical or roman catholic. I have yet to see any source of information that says that pre christian jews believe angels are dragons.

you do know that book is a work of fiction, right?

ask DC, from what i gather, he has done extensive research into that, and the bible has been worked and reworked for centuries. and the original translations of the hebrew texts were in greek and latin, then much later on english, if you want the true translation have it go from Hebrew to english, then you may see what DC is tslking about, that and the texts you don't see are stored in the library in the vatican.

psssssssssh
Well, y'all have resorted to name calling, eh?
Well, I proved my points and facts, its up to you to accept or decline the truth...

By what I have seen, y'all will probably decline, as I have seen a "pushing aside facts" streak in here....

Again, I have no power over your weak opinions and brains, its up to you to accept the truth, and find your reward in heaven, or to decline the truth, pushing away your chance to be saved ( I think you already have pushed it away)....forever

Yes i do.

I did not mean the whole book, but he statements inside it, especially the one where it said that a roman emperor hosted a comitee with all the big heads of cristianity, and changed the bible to in corporate the paganist symbols and beliefs into it, so there would be a bigger support from pagans.

ah, sorry misinterpreted that.

you say we have weak brains and weak opinions, i say you have the same, dear boy. To insult someone like that, is both foolish and proves you are too young to have an intelligent conversation, discussion or arguement. You seem to lack the respect that those older than you deserve.

On the subject of dragons, which form do you all prefer, the modern images or the medieval images in the frescoes both in the vatican and around the world?

Hmmmmm...another one who readily ignores DC's deragatory posts...I see another streak here...

None of you will just accept facts, eh?
Not my loss...

why worry about it then. if it is not your loss why so much energy spent trying to convince others.

Ok, I am sorry about the name calling, but he has spent the last 5 pages telling uss that dragons are angels, and basicly repeating the same facts over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Shall we summ up then? Here's how I see it. There are a few schools of thought so far:

A lot of the board: Dragons don't exist/are mythical

DC: Hi! I'd like you to buy my book that I will advertise in every post I ma... er... I'm not sure if I'm saying dragons exist or not, I'm most definitely positively and absolutely unclear on this point, and will continue muddying the waters for some time to come. What I AM saying is that angels equals dragons. We worshipped dragons. It's all in secret texts and stuff that only my mate Benedict and I have been able to see in his private library. My point remains the same. We worshipped dragons, and the proof is in Ezekiel that some dragons turned up.

Captain Cinquo (interlude): I think that this argument has become somewhat ecclesiastical in that the question has moved from 'do dragons exist' to 'was everything in the bible a dragon?'. Personally, I'd really like to see us get a bit more back on topic.

Frogfish: DC is still stinky. I think he is a poo-bum. Have a look at this list. I can't find any dragons on it. It's from the church and stuff. I forget what I was arguing about before because I'm far too reactionary to the slightest insult (perceived or otherwise) that anyone makes about me. Oh yeah, Ezekiel has angels in it. Because they looked like people. That looked like angels. That looked like people. That looked like people. That looked like.... hey... did you just call me something? You wanna piece of me? Well do ya... punk?

Everyone Else: Oh, get on with it.

Nogard: Dragons are very intelligent. They might be in the bible. They might also have invented the ronson gas lighter centuries before we knew it existed and still hold the patent.

Captain Cinquo: Dragons may be saurians left over from the ice age in the similar manner to that theorised about the loch ness monster/ogopogo/morag/etc. I would enjoy some rational and intelligent debate on the subject.

I also have some other small observations.

1) Aren't Cherubim those little fat guys with ludicrously tiny wings and trumpets that hang around the corners of fancy maps and valentine's cards?

2) Isn't Ezekiel's description the world's first UFO sighting? (something about a 'wheel' if I remember correctly. Wheels within wheels).

3) Those things that hung around the Big Wheel of Ezekiel have been described in at least two of the books I've read as the supposition that these were astronauts wearing helicopter backpacks (four wings, whirling about, whichever way they turned etc).

******So STAY TUNED KIDS!******
Will the helipack-wearing astronauts defeat the dragons? Will they zap them with their seraphimo-laser rifles? Or will the draconic theory come to light and the dragons toast the pretenders with searing, cleansing flame?

Find out now on.... page 20-whatever of ..... "DO Dragons EXIST???????"

G'day mates! I'll just start with saying that I'm new too, just like our Captain... Anywho, I've been reading this thread (really interesting!), not all that close though. But for all I can see is that DC presents some AWESOME facts - and being a historian myself (uh, well a student anyway ) I can truely say that it seems like he's done his homework.
Understand this: as a historian you MUST find credible sources. If the source is closer to the actual event the better it is, and even better better if it's written down bu an eyewitness. Therefore the versions of the bible that's in everybodys homes today is rubbish, just because it's been translated many times, and (i guess it's a fact) sections have been removed.
But I don't understand why it's such a horrible thing if what we are used to call Angels infact would turn out to be Dragos... Would you mind explaining that Frogfish? I find that thought kinda cool But, If there in fact would exist dragons does NOT prove the existence of God - that's for sure!

But I have a quastion: what could have inspired the dragons amongst so many civilizations? I have seen pics of dinosaures-like animals on some stone carvings etc, could THEY have inspired the dragon image?

And last to DC: have you included other sources when you've investigated the dragons, except the Bible? like the Koran (is it spelled like this in english?) or some other mythological texts? Do you believe they did/do exist? And what is your books name? i wanna get my hands on that one!

EDIT: I'd just like to add that the chatholic churh have been VERY wrong for many HUNDREDS of years! For example: during the medieval time priest from the chatholic church did infact NOT live in celibacy and had quite a few children (hence the reformation). And everybody saying that the earth was round got burned for a very long time, saying that the earth was NOT the center of the universe meant being burned, not reading the bible or believe in God like the church wanted you to: burned... The list goes on... And now a-days the chatholic church refuse to acknowladge condom as a good protections against aids, due to this many million dies in Africa...

Frogfish,
I'm gonna let you in on a secret... age doesn't matter. I'm sure that there are people on this forum that are younger, or a little older than you, who don't get ridiculed for their age, because they don't have a tantrum when someone disagrees with them. And why are you still surprised that people are disagreeing with you, you have been saying the same thing for the last 5-6 pages. I will agree with what you said a little while ago, lets get back on topic, but please don't argue about the angels anymore...it's getting very old.










Mind Freak 20:12











PEACE

Vidgange,
Glad to see there is another reader here who understands the Historian's job. Yes, in "real life" I am a historian, with several published books in multiple languages, one for sale in the British Museum and numerous historical sites. None of these have to do with dragons, but my combined interests in dragons, paleontology, and myths and religion is what got me going on this project (plus a possible supernatural event I am not going to discuss here). Many people like the good Cap'n C probably have too short an attention span to comprehend these things. For example I never said "dragons were angels". The Bible is very clear that angels are immortal humans that look exactly like humans, eat food like humans and even have sex like human. However in the heavenly hierarchy there are ALSO references to non-human creatures with wings and other reptilian features that are called Cherubim, Seraphim and Destroyers, or simply "dragons" as well. For example the same creatures singing praises to God in Isaiah are called Seraphim, and in Psalms the singing creatures are called "dragons". But since we know Seraphim means a winged serpent, the two sources are in complete harmony. The title is not decided yet, but I will mention the book when it is out. Yes, other dragon legends around the world must be addressed because the whole point of this is that these same dragons were believed in everywhere in the world. But if we must pinpoint their origin, the Bible's creation story, with its remarkable parallel to the evolution of life on earth, must be cosidered. (Not the silly 6 day version, but the "long creation" version.
As for other cultures, I have recently posted on anthoer thread how the Scandinavian "Trickster" Loki has similar characteristic to the serpent-dragon that tricks Gilgamesh and Adam and Eve. Perhaps he was oriignally a serpent-dragon too, but evolved into a more human God just as few people identifiy Satan today as the dragon his is described in the Bible, but instead, as a pagan greek humanoid Satyr, or even just a guy in a black suit in old Twilight Zone reruns.

The Quaran is of little use in this study for it is clear that Mohammed merely borrowed stories from the Bible and gave them an arabic slant. There is however, a medieval Moslem painting of Mohammed ascending to heaven with the assistance of a flying dragon, so these ideas of heavenly dragon servants was understood by them as well.

Cap'n C, I'm guessing you must be a kid too if you really think I am wasting this much time trying to plug my book to the handful of people who read this forum. When people are interested I naturally tell them about the book, but my purpose here is to find knowledable people who can find contradictions or mistakes in my research, but so far none have been forthcoming..... just little kids who do not know enough about the subject to talk intelligently about it. But I have gotten some good info, not on this forum, but others on UM that have made this all worthwhile. None of my books were written to "make money". They are a hobby. I have a comfortable goverment job as a professional military historian which has allowed me to travel the world pursuit of my interests. As for Cherubim, the Catholics changed them from draconic creatures of the old testament, to Greco-Roman spirit creatures that looked like fat little babies. The biblical description of God riding a mighty winged Cherubim, with fire spewing from its mouth and smoke from its nostrils, is a far cry from the ridiculous notion he is riding on a giant human angel, or more absurdly, a chubby little baby angel. This is the absurdity of the catholic church, although as I have demonstrated, the top catholic theologians knew the truth about the Cherubim and Seraphim dragons, and it can be found in their writings, not to mention ancient christian monuments in which they are all depicted as dragons.

Yes that "thing" in Ezekiel sometimes believed to be a spacecraft, is most certainly not a dragon-cherub, but a "chariot" being drawn by four creatures (human, ox, eagle, lion). It has nothing to do with the draconic cherubs described in other biblical passages. But because god rides on dragon cherubs, the Ezekiel writer instead places him in a more "dignified" heavenly "chariot" because the noble warriors and kings of his time went to war in chariots driven by Four horses, this is why there are four entities, and the wheels, of course. Although the word Seraphim means a fiery flying serpent in Hebrew, the word Cherubim is believed to come from the word "Kiribu" an assistant/solider in a chariot that protects the king/noble. This is why the throne of the Jewish God, as well as Egyptian pharoahs and gods are flanked by winged dragons or serpents, to serve as fearsome guardians, like the protective guardians in chariots. This is the connection between Cherubs and Ezekiel's chariot, not the four, non-dragon creatures that drew the chariot.

Frogfish, grow up, or don't bother to post your childish immature ranting. But like Vidgange said, why do you have such hatred and rage over the idea that some of the heavenly creatures looked like dragons? Any real Christian should love this idea, for it demonstrates that a supernatural creature of the bible was bellieved in by virtually every world culture. You apparently believe in one of these dragons already, so why would that form be unique to just Satan? For someone who likes dinosaurs so much, (like most kids), I find it hard to fathom why you hate the idea of heavenly dragons. Because dragons are the most ancient, and senior heavenly creatures, it is likely they were developed from some kind of pterosaur or other now extinct giant reptile to serve God millions of years before humans would evolve, or the human like messenger angels would be required. I have made nothing up. Everything I have said about dragons and the bible is based on solid research, but I am not going to spend hours directing people to every source. That's why I've written the book, so people can find the sources in one place. That's why people write books, to consolidate disparate, scattered facts about a single subject, so the facts can be conveniently examined in one place by peoploe interested in that subject.

Dark Lord, I have gotten most of my Biblical dragon sources by researching every reference to dragons in virtually every online Christian and Jewish encylcopedia/dictionary, and with leads, then going to the original sources they mention. As far as the dragons depicted in ancient Christian artwork, I have lived for many years in Europe as part of my government jobs, and have visited virtually every museum, cathedral, archaological site I could find that has evidence of dragons, not to mention two free, all expenses paid trips to Iraq courtesy the US Army, which is where the earliest written references to dragons come from, and in stories in which the later old testament ones saw their origins sometimes more than a 1000 years earlier.

Hey DC,
I was just thinking about this, isn't it frusterating when you type like 4-5 paragraphs, and then someone just denies everything you said? I can only imagine how pissed i would be if someone kept doing that to me...
So, without ANY religion involved, what do you think about the existance of dragons (past or otherwise)?










Mind Freak 20:12














PEACE

DC, you must have something against children. Did they hurt you in some way?

Cap, Dragns most certainly do not exist on earth. There are humans almost everywhere, someone would have seen them.

off to work

Good summery!

DC:

Thank you.
you mentioned that you are a military historian, something i am heavily interested in, should i PM you for more info?

But if that was true, then dragons would of been alive together with dinosaurs...
The Cherubim and Seraphim ANGELS are found in protestant Bibles, the NIV, the King James, and others too....that must be a coincedence that proves something against dragons...

Now on the scientific side....There is absoultely no proof of dragons except in painting and legends....that doesn't mean Unicorns are real either....

Also, satan was not entirely a reptile....he could change forms...how do you think he confronted Jesus in the Desert?

Reptiles are considered evil...even today....

By who? By Christians. It is the way your religion has conditioned you to respond to them.

Reptiles are genraly considered evil by EVERYONE...why do you think people are afraid of snakes, not parrots?

not everyone is afraid of reptiles, ever heard of herpetologists, even in the past, there were men and women who spent time with such creatures their kids as well. it is true that for a long time, people in generql feared and hated these creatures, but they were also in awe of them, they had respect for such creatures.
Also humans fear what they themselves cannot fully explain or control.

I said Generally...But we can explain them, we still have put an "evil stamp" on reptiles...

Yes, I know what Herpetologists are...I kind of consider myself one...more like a mix between Herpetologist and Herpeculturist.

that is the same as me saying i consider myself an historian, though i am not for i lack the credentials, i am however a student of history.

yes, but I am crazy about reptile...I know a lot of them, and I do own reptiles (the culturist part)

what types do you care for specifically?

Frogfish, the Cherubim and Seraphim are described in the Bible as "frightening and terrible".
They are SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY LITTLE FROGFISH!!! Seraphim means a fiery flying serpent in Hebrew. That's the language the Old Testament was written in, but maybe you didn't know that too, as I keep forgetting you are just a little kid who has never seriously studied these things. These creatures are supposed to burn cities and eat people, they are not supposed to be cute and fuzzy. I think you watch too many cartoons with their cutesy creatures.

People do not want their notion of heavenly creatures to be terrifying. Like you, they stupidly think it is all harps and halos. This is why many people won't like my book, like you, they don't want to know the truth about the bible, just the pleasant, "edited" "Walt Disney" version. Seraphim and Cherubim are NEVER referred to as angels in the Bible, they are called either by their formal names just said, or as "dragons" or as "creatures".

With your ignorant logic the angels of the bible must be just as nonexistent as you claim the dragons in the bible are. In fact the angels must be even a greater fantasy, for at least people all over the world universally believed in dragons, while only a very few cultures believed in "angels", and the angels you believe in with swan wings were only believed in by the pagan greeks and romans until the catholics corrupted and changed the bible. Real angels looked just like normal young men, period, no pagan 'roman wings that the Roman Catholics perverted with Bible with.

There is nothing in the bible that says Satan had a human form, you just watch to many bad bible movies (and religious cartoons of course). The only descriptin of Satan in the entire bible is that of a dragon, or a serpent if you add the New Testament, but in Greek serpent means dragon as well. If you actually read the bible it says Satan "took" Jesus and "placed him" on the temple pinnacle. These words only make sense if he has a huge creature that physically grasped Jesus, flew to the temple and "placed" him there. He wasn't "beamed" there like Star Trek, the Bible doesn't say this, but it is a cheaper special effect for Bible movies than creating an animitronic 50 foot long dragon.

Instead of watching cartoons all Saturday morning, Frogfish, why don't you actually look up all of these things I have been telling you. Actually, I think you are afraid too, because everything I have said is really in the Bible, and all of the CATHOLIC literature I have mentioned such as the Summas of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

But I bet before I mentioned these names of the greatest Catholic theologians (that coincidentally confirm the existence of dragons, and that they are heavenly creatures), you didn't even know who these people were, or that Biblical texts like Baruch and Enoch that clearly mention the heavenly dragons, even existed. (Of course, the familiar Bible mentions dragons too, at least a dozen times, but possibly not your heavily-edited Pravda-catholic verision that has been corrupted to say only what the pope wants you to read). But how could you know these things, you obtained all of your information about the bible from sunday school and religious cartoons. Obviously you are still too little to learn about the BIG SCARY DRAGONS that are in the REAL bible. If your mommy told you about them, you would have nightmares that they are hiding under your bed or in your closet. Why don't you grow up a little, instead of making yourself look like an ignorant little child every time you open your mouth on this forum.

One thing they should have taught you in Sunday School of how evil and ungodly it is to be prideful. And you are undoubtedly the most prideful, conceited, arrogant and egotistical little boys I have ever heard rant. You will never admit you are wrong, even when it contradicts your own religion as I have proven. No wonder you are so terrified of the heavenly dragons, for their job is to punish sinners, and one of the greatest sins is pride. And worse still, you are contradicting the word of God. I guess the "dragons" are going to have a lot of "fun" with you!

Why do ppl fear reptiles and not parrots? Well, I'll try to explain this the best way I can... here it goes: crocs and snakes will kill ya! I have NEVER heard of a parrot picking some-one to death (though, that most have happend sometime, somewhere!) - and that's all to it! There's been experimants trying to explain this: sceintists got a little mouse (of some kind), which had never encountered with a snake, and neither had it's ancestors for over 100.000 years, and but it in a cage. They then put a second cage next to the mouses with a snake in... The reaction of the mouse? It got in defend mode! Why? It was still "programed" to fear deadly snakes - and I guess we humans works the same... We know that crocs are dangerous - I mean; look at them! sharp teeth, sharp claws... and therefore we don't cuddle with them! However this does NOT mean that they're considered evil! I have never met anuone thinking they're evil... creepy, yes, ecil, no... Btw ppl are more afraid of spiders!

Frogfish, you just have to realize that the bible have been tampered with, like most texts... There's no text in the world that's objective; all texts suffers from the authers point of view, experiences and childhood - even DC's! there are no books in the world that's completle objective!!!

We can take an example that's you're probebly more familier to then i am; the american civilwar... I'll probebly upset quite a few now, but may be as it is...
What's the main reson this civilwar broke out? Slavery? nope! slavery had nothing to do with the war at all! The northers (if i may call them like that) didn't give a sh*t about that. So why does it say so in every history book? because the northers won! First the US used the slavery for an ecxuse to get support internationaly. At this time UK damned slavery, and as the leading power in the world US said that they fought against slavery so they could the support they needed...

Now, have I made myself clear about how texts doesn't allways seem to be what they are - or have i made things even more difficult? Plz go to college and read history and u will learn what it means to look at a work with critical eyes...

Again, as I said before, It doen't matter if its Catholic, Protestant, or Adventist...SERAPHIMS AND CHERUBIMS ARE HUMANOID BEINGS WITH WINGS, not mthical purple dragons who play in clouds...You have watched Puff the Magic Dragon too many times...
It must mean something that only YOUR text is the only one in the world that appraises dragons, and still you do not dare to give us a source...I'm am thinking that you are a big phony, you have ceased your "intelligent" debate long ago....maybe you never even started it...You fail to give us links to your fantasy text, and the only thing in your posts are "attack frogfish"


First, you must know something on Christianity before you neter this topic, and by your comments you know none, READ THE BIBLE, IT CLEARLY STATES THEM AS ANGELS (Catholic, protestant, adventist, NIV, King James, Latter Day Saints)...of course, knowing your tatics, you are won't read it, and instead you'll keep up your barage of attacks
Also, see my links I have posted, something you phony has failed to do.



Give us links, or then you have no proof...wait, you DO HAVE NO PROOF.


That is the worst logic ever...Just because he placed Jesus somewhere else, doesn't mean he is a dragon! You should stop watching those SCi-Fi movies...Satan was once a heavenly Being, he was a powerful angel, he doen't need to be a dragon to move Jesus...Someone here must agree with me there...
DC: Oh, look! A dragon is moving that bird throught the sky!

No, DC, I havent watched any movies...But YOU should let up on Sci-Fi...for some reason, all your analogies go back to Sci-Fi movies...
I can see your frustrated by the lack of support and evidence you have, but that does not mean you have to take your anger out on others



I knew of them before you told me...Hmmmmm that whole post looks like an attck...DC where is your evidence? Oh, I forgot you do not have any


gain, I don't see any proofs of dragons in this part either...you seem afraid of angels...


Micah-el, I have a Panther Chameleon, 2 Ribbon Snakes, and a Baskilisk..
I want an Iguana, but we do not have a sunroom to keep it in (they need a lot of space) and I also want a Blood Python, but My mom won't let me...well, 3 more years until college, and then I can get one...


People are afraid of lizards too....Our fear of reptiles have been implanted in our brains, since our ancestors were probably hunted by some..
Why else would people swerve to hit a harmless garter snake, or hack the head of a Iguana? Human history has a reputation of makinmg anything scary reptilian..

Your thought about spiders is an opinion.


You are actually wrong there, The Civil War broke out because the South refused to give up slavery...In the Constitution, there is an article (exact article number slips my mind) that says slavery is allowed until a certain year...part of the Missouri Compromise. After that deadline, the soon to be Confederates never gave up their slaves...that created tension (plus previous tensions), and then the Civil War.


And you must go to college to learn how to spell and type.
Wow, didn't I just prove your whole statement wrong? Sorry, looks like I don't need your offer...

Run for your life. The dragon are coming. Myth. Say it again. They are myths with no basis in reality execpet for mistaken identity of dino bones.

Also on the SCIENTIFIC SIDE, THERE IS NO PROOF OF DRAGONS EXISTING.

Yes, DC, painting ares not considered proof..