nooo... i don't think they existed..maybe on another planet or dimension...
the only thing close to dragons existing is dinosaurs.
Full Version: Dragons.
Frogfish you little baby. I have said where the information came from in over 100 posts. Many other people are able to comprehend this. And many of the sources came from the greatest Catholic theologians, who being a child, you probably don't even know. But even a 14 year old child should be able to grasp this. Are you retarded? It must be the only explantion why you cannot comprehend these things.
Incidentally, you probably do not understand this as well, but no one is supporting your position, they are only harrasing me because they are athiests, which I suspect you must be too, since you are unable to comprehend that all of these things I am saying come from scripture. If the dragons in the bible are not real, then your paganized greco Roman angels, and none of the rest of it can be either. In fact it is already common knowledge among real biblical scholars that the winged spirit angels are not in the Bible, they are actually one of the many Roman catholic adoptions of pagan Roman mythology. A hundred people will tell you that in the spirituality forums here. No one has challenged these ideas of the biblical dragons from the religious standpoint because it is very clear and undeniable. They only challenge it from an atheist standpoint in which to them dragons are as fake as angels and God as well.
And you have never made a scholarly argument at all. In your little child's mind you don't like the idea, so you just deny it. A dozen other posters here have said the same thing. Everyone has seen your immaturity and made fun of you. It will just continue as long as you interupt these discussions with your childish prattle. You are just a little kid with no idea what you are talking about, and no desire to check on the things I have said because then you would know I am right. It is obvious you only want attention, but but you are too much of a child to understand that the only attention you are getting is the universal acknowledgment you are just an immature little kid with absolutely nothing to offer in these discussions. We can only hope you don't pick up your toy dinosaurs or something and your parents punish you by restricting your computer "playtime".
You are contributing nothing to these discussions. I don't know why a moderator doesn't just ban you. They shouldn't let little children like you on adult forums anyway. Some, like you, are far too immature to be here.
Incidentally, you probably do not understand this as well, but no one is supporting your position, they are only harrasing me because they are athiests, which I suspect you must be too, since you are unable to comprehend that all of these things I am saying come from scripture. If the dragons in the bible are not real, then your paganized greco Roman angels, and none of the rest of it can be either. In fact it is already common knowledge among real biblical scholars that the winged spirit angels are not in the Bible, they are actually one of the many Roman catholic adoptions of pagan Roman mythology. A hundred people will tell you that in the spirituality forums here. No one has challenged these ideas of the biblical dragons from the religious standpoint because it is very clear and undeniable. They only challenge it from an atheist standpoint in which to them dragons are as fake as angels and God as well.
And you have never made a scholarly argument at all. In your little child's mind you don't like the idea, so you just deny it. A dozen other posters here have said the same thing. Everyone has seen your immaturity and made fun of you. It will just continue as long as you interupt these discussions with your childish prattle. You are just a little kid with no idea what you are talking about, and no desire to check on the things I have said because then you would know I am right. It is obvious you only want attention, but but you are too much of a child to understand that the only attention you are getting is the universal acknowledgment you are just an immature little kid with absolutely nothing to offer in these discussions. We can only hope you don't pick up your toy dinosaurs or something and your parents punish you by restricting your computer "playtime".
You are contributing nothing to these discussions. I don't know why a moderator doesn't just ban you. They shouldn't let little children like you on adult forums anyway. Some, like you, are far too immature to be here.
QUOTE(nogard @ Nov 17 2005, 08:34 PM) [snapback]937354[/snapback]
Yes i do.
I did not mean the whole book, but he statements inside it, especially the one where it said that a roman emperor hosted a comitee with all the big heads of cristianity, and changed the bible to in corporate the paganist symbols and beliefs into it, so there would be a bigger support from pagans.
Yeah, that was Constantine. No value to this thread, though, but hey.
Istanbul was Constantinople. No value to this thread either, but had to say it.
QUOTE
Frogfish you little baby. I have said where the information came from in over 100 posts. Many other people are able to comprehend this. And many of the sources came from the greatest Catholic theologians, who being a child, you probably don't even know. But even a 14 year old child should be able to grasp this. Are you retarded? It must be the only explantion why you cannot comprehend these things.
Incidentally, you probably do not understand this as well, but no one is supporting your position, they are only harrasing me because they are athiests, which I suspect you must be too, since you are unable to comprehend that all of these things I am saying come from scripture. If the dragons in the bible are not real, then your paganized greco Roman angels, and none of the rest of it can be either. In fact it is already common knowledge among real biblical scholars that the winged spirit angels are not in the Bible, they are actually one of the many Roman catholic adoptions of pagan Roman mythology. A hundred people will tell you that in the spirituality forums here. No one has challenged these ideas of the biblical dragons from the religious standpoint because it is very clear and undeniable. They only challenge it from an atheist standpoint in which to them dragons are as fake as angels and God as well.
And you have never made a scholarly argument at all. In your little child's mind you don't like the idea, so you just deny it. A dozen other posters here have said the same thing. Everyone has seen your immaturity and made fun of you. It will just continue as long as you interupt these discussions with your childish prattle. You are just a little kid with no idea what you are talking about, and no desire to check on the things I have said because then you would know I am right. It is obvious you only want attention, but but you are too much of a child to understand that the only attention you are getting is the universal acknowledgment you are just an immature little kid with absolutely nothing to offer in these discussions. We can only hope you don't pick up your toy dinosaurs or something and your parents punish you by restricting your computer "playtime".
You are contributing nothing to these discussions. I don't know why a moderator doesn't just ban you. They shouldn't let little children like you on adult forums anyway. Some, like you, are far too immature to be here.
Incidentally, you probably do not understand this as well, but no one is supporting your position, they are only harrasing me because they are athiests, which I suspect you must be too, since you are unable to comprehend that all of these things I am saying come from scripture. If the dragons in the bible are not real, then your paganized greco Roman angels, and none of the rest of it can be either. In fact it is already common knowledge among real biblical scholars that the winged spirit angels are not in the Bible, they are actually one of the many Roman catholic adoptions of pagan Roman mythology. A hundred people will tell you that in the spirituality forums here. No one has challenged these ideas of the biblical dragons from the religious standpoint because it is very clear and undeniable. They only challenge it from an atheist standpoint in which to them dragons are as fake as angels and God as well.
And you have never made a scholarly argument at all. In your little child's mind you don't like the idea, so you just deny it. A dozen other posters here have said the same thing. Everyone has seen your immaturity and made fun of you. It will just continue as long as you interupt these discussions with your childish prattle. You are just a little kid with no idea what you are talking about, and no desire to check on the things I have said because then you would know I am right. It is obvious you only want attention, but but you are too much of a child to understand that the only attention you are getting is the universal acknowledgment you are just an immature little kid with absolutely nothing to offer in these discussions. We can only hope you don't pick up your toy dinosaurs or something and your parents punish you by restricting your computer "playtime".
You are contributing nothing to these discussions. I don't know why a moderator doesn't just ban you. They shouldn't let little children like you on adult forums anyway. Some, like you, are far too immature to be here.
As I have said over and over again, if you look at my links, that iks proof AGAINST dragons. But you are scared too, you know those links hold the truth, not your imaginary scriptures...I have heard of those Saints Much earlier than you have....I actually know what they did, unlike you, who make up your facts...Give me a link that shows Aquinas and Augustine said that...Oh I forgot, you do not have any links. Seraphims and Cherubims are angels, as every single bible ever written in the history of the world has shown...show me one...name it! Ezekial proclaimed Cherubims and Seraphims as humanoid "angels" since the earliest text. Even if there is one odd-ball bible out there, there are still a million more against dragons..you have it mixed up DC...angels are not the mistranslations, DRAGONS ARE!
QUOTE
are far too immature to be here.
I wonder what you consider this is then:
QUOTE
Frogfish you little baby. I have said where the information came from in over 100 posts. Many other people are able to comprehend this. And many of the sources came from the greatest Catholic theologians, who being a child, you probably don't even know. But even a 14 year old child should be able to grasp this. Are you retarded? It must be the only explantion why you cannot comprehend these things.
Incidentally, you probably do not understand this as well, but no one is supporting your position, they are only harrasing me because they are athiests, which I suspect you must be too, since you are unable to comprehend that all of these things I am saying come from scripture. If the dragons in the bible are not real, then your paganized greco Roman angels, and none of the rest of it can be either. In fact it is already common knowledge among real biblical scholars that the winged spirit angels are not in the Bible, they are actually one of the many Roman catholic adoptions of pagan Roman mythology. A hundred people will tell you that in the spirituality forums here. No one has challenged these ideas of the biblical dragons from the religious standpoint because it is very clear and undeniable. They only challenge it from an atheist standpoint in which to them dragons are as fake as angels and God as well.
And you have never made a scholarly argument at all. In your little child's mind you don't like the idea, so you just deny it. A dozen other posters here have said the same thing. Everyone has seen your immaturity and made fun of you. It will just continue as long as you interupt these discussions with your childish prattle. You are just a little kid with no idea what you are talking about, and no desire to check on the things I have said because then you would know I am right. It is obvious you only want attention, but but you are too much of a child to understand that the only attention you are getting is the universal acknowledgment you are just an immature little kid with absolutely nothing to offer in these discussions. We can only hope you don't pick up your toy dinosaurs or something and your parents punish you by restricting your computer "playtime".
You are contributing nothing to these discussions. I don't know why a moderator doesn't just ban you. They shouldn't let little children like you on adult forums anyway. Some, like you, are far too immature to be here.
Incidentally, you probably do not understand this as well, but no one is supporting your position, they are only harrasing me because they are athiests, which I suspect you must be too, since you are unable to comprehend that all of these things I am saying come from scripture. If the dragons in the bible are not real, then your paganized greco Roman angels, and none of the rest of it can be either. In fact it is already common knowledge among real biblical scholars that the winged spirit angels are not in the Bible, they are actually one of the many Roman catholic adoptions of pagan Roman mythology. A hundred people will tell you that in the spirituality forums here. No one has challenged these ideas of the biblical dragons from the religious standpoint because it is very clear and undeniable. They only challenge it from an atheist standpoint in which to them dragons are as fake as angels and God as well.
And you have never made a scholarly argument at all. In your little child's mind you don't like the idea, so you just deny it. A dozen other posters here have said the same thing. Everyone has seen your immaturity and made fun of you. It will just continue as long as you interupt these discussions with your childish prattle. You are just a little kid with no idea what you are talking about, and no desire to check on the things I have said because then you would know I am right. It is obvious you only want attention, but but you are too much of a child to understand that the only attention you are getting is the universal acknowledgment you are just an immature little kid with absolutely nothing to offer in these discussions. We can only hope you don't pick up your toy dinosaurs or something and your parents punish you by restricting your computer "playtime".
You are contributing nothing to these discussions. I don't know why a moderator doesn't just ban you. They shouldn't let little children like you on adult forums anyway. Some, like you, are far too immature to be here.
and this:
QUOTE
Frogfish, the Cherubim and Seraphim are described in the Bible as "frightening and terrible".
They are SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY LITTLE FROGFISH!!! Seraphim means a fiery flying serpent in Hebrew. That's the language the Old Testament was written in, but maybe you didn't know that too, as I keep forgetting you are just a little kid who has never seriously studied these things. These creatures are supposed to burn cities and eat people, they are not supposed to be cute and fuzzy. I think you watch too many cartoons with their cutesy creatures.
People do not want their notion of heavenly creatures to be terrifying. Like you, they stupidly think it is all harps and halos. This is why many people won't like my book, like you, they don't want to know the truth about the bible, just the pleasant, "edited" "Walt Disney" version. Seraphim and Cherubim are NEVER referred to as angels in the Bible, they are called either by their formal names just said, or as "dragons" or as "creatures".
With your ignorant logic the angels of the bible must be just as nonexistent as you claim the dragons in the bible are. In fact the angels must be even a greater fantasy, for at least people all over the world universally believed in dragons, while only a very few cultures believed in "angels", and the angels you believe in with swan wings were only believed in by the pagan greeks and romans until the catholics corrupted and changed the bible. Real angels looked just like normal young men, period, no pagan 'roman wings that the Roman Catholics perverted with Bible with.
There is nothing in the bible that says Satan had a human form, you just watch to many bad bible movies (and religious cartoons of course). The only descriptin of Satan in the entire bible is that of a dragon, or a serpent if you add the New Testament, but in Greek serpent means dragon as well. If you actually read the bible it says Satan "took" Jesus and "placed him" on the temple pinnacle. These words only make sense if he has a huge creature that physically grasped Jesus, flew to the temple and "placed" him there. He wasn't "beamed" there like Star Trek, the Bible doesn't say this, but it is a cheaper special effect for Bible movies than creating an animitronic 50 foot long dragon.
Instead of watching cartoons all Saturday morning, Frogfish, why don't you actually look up all of these things I have been telling you. Actually, I think you are afraid too, because everything I have said is really in the Bible, and all of the CATHOLIC literature I have mentioned such as the Summas of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.
But I bet before I mentioned these names of the greatest Catholic theologians (that coincidentally confirm the existence of dragons, and that they are heavenly creatures), you didn't even know who these people were, or that Biblical texts like Baruch and Enoch that clearly mention the heavenly dragons, even existed. (Of course, the familiar Bible mentions dragons too, at least a dozen times, but possibly not your heavily-edited Pravda-catholic verision that has been corrupted to say only what the pope wants you to read). But how could you know these things, you obtained all of your information about the bible from sunday school and religious cartoons. Obviously you are still too little to learn about the BIG SCARY DRAGONS that are in the REAL bible. If your mommy told you about them, you would have nightmares that they are hiding under your bed or in your closet. Why don't you grow up a little, instead of making yourself look like an ignorant little child every time you open your mouth on this forum.
One thing they should have taught you in Sunday School of how evil and ungodly it is to be prideful. And you are undoubtedly the most prideful, conceited, arrogant and egotistical little boys I have ever heard rant. You will never admit you are wrong, even when it contradicts your own religion as I have proven. No wonder you are so terrified of the heavenly dragons, for their job is to punish sinners, and one of the greatest sins is pride. And worse still, you are contradicting the word of God. I guess the "dragons" are going to have a lot of "fun" with you!
They are SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY LITTLE FROGFISH!!! Seraphim means a fiery flying serpent in Hebrew. That's the language the Old Testament was written in, but maybe you didn't know that too, as I keep forgetting you are just a little kid who has never seriously studied these things. These creatures are supposed to burn cities and eat people, they are not supposed to be cute and fuzzy. I think you watch too many cartoons with their cutesy creatures.
People do not want their notion of heavenly creatures to be terrifying. Like you, they stupidly think it is all harps and halos. This is why many people won't like my book, like you, they don't want to know the truth about the bible, just the pleasant, "edited" "Walt Disney" version. Seraphim and Cherubim are NEVER referred to as angels in the Bible, they are called either by their formal names just said, or as "dragons" or as "creatures".
With your ignorant logic the angels of the bible must be just as nonexistent as you claim the dragons in the bible are. In fact the angels must be even a greater fantasy, for at least people all over the world universally believed in dragons, while only a very few cultures believed in "angels", and the angels you believe in with swan wings were only believed in by the pagan greeks and romans until the catholics corrupted and changed the bible. Real angels looked just like normal young men, period, no pagan 'roman wings that the Roman Catholics perverted with Bible with.
There is nothing in the bible that says Satan had a human form, you just watch to many bad bible movies (and religious cartoons of course). The only descriptin of Satan in the entire bible is that of a dragon, or a serpent if you add the New Testament, but in Greek serpent means dragon as well. If you actually read the bible it says Satan "took" Jesus and "placed him" on the temple pinnacle. These words only make sense if he has a huge creature that physically grasped Jesus, flew to the temple and "placed" him there. He wasn't "beamed" there like Star Trek, the Bible doesn't say this, but it is a cheaper special effect for Bible movies than creating an animitronic 50 foot long dragon.
Instead of watching cartoons all Saturday morning, Frogfish, why don't you actually look up all of these things I have been telling you. Actually, I think you are afraid too, because everything I have said is really in the Bible, and all of the CATHOLIC literature I have mentioned such as the Summas of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.
But I bet before I mentioned these names of the greatest Catholic theologians (that coincidentally confirm the existence of dragons, and that they are heavenly creatures), you didn't even know who these people were, or that Biblical texts like Baruch and Enoch that clearly mention the heavenly dragons, even existed. (Of course, the familiar Bible mentions dragons too, at least a dozen times, but possibly not your heavily-edited Pravda-catholic verision that has been corrupted to say only what the pope wants you to read). But how could you know these things, you obtained all of your information about the bible from sunday school and religious cartoons. Obviously you are still too little to learn about the BIG SCARY DRAGONS that are in the REAL bible. If your mommy told you about them, you would have nightmares that they are hiding under your bed or in your closet. Why don't you grow up a little, instead of making yourself look like an ignorant little child every time you open your mouth on this forum.
One thing they should have taught you in Sunday School of how evil and ungodly it is to be prideful. And you are undoubtedly the most prideful, conceited, arrogant and egotistical little boys I have ever heard rant. You will never admit you are wrong, even when it contradicts your own religion as I have proven. No wonder you are so terrified of the heavenly dragons, for their job is to punish sinners, and one of the greatest sins is pride. And worse still, you are contradicting the word of God. I guess the "dragons" are going to have a lot of "fun" with you!
and all the other 479 posts that ever had the misfortune to be posted on this thread and waste the time of all these good people...Again, just because you are wrong doesn't mean you have to take out your anger on me...You act like a 3 year-old, pssssh. I AM just as mature as everyoe else here DC...just look at your posts. I am as smart as anyone else, everyone is more mature, and more smarter than you, the only thing you have showed us all is your hatred of anyone younger than you...you have shown no evidence, as a true scientist...you should not even consider yourself a historian...you disgrace the field of history. You disgrace the human race with your little usless, amusing, posts...Ha, I should be banned? Everyone on this forum has been more polite, more helpful, and more useful, more intelligent, and more contributing than you have...from SaRuMaN to the newest member....You are the most vile, disgusting, putrid human ever...you definetily are the most obnoxious and rude.
If I were you DC, I would take those as complements, as I have not even scratched the surface, but I shall not waste my time with this..
Your attacks are amusing DC, I love to see how much much lower you can get every day....so far, you have no end...Keep it up!
Because if your goal has changed from trying to convince people to believe your rubbish to trying to demoralize frogfish, it is not working..
It just shows me and everyone else on this forum that, in fact, you are not the "high respected" historian, or the "classy intelligent scientist", but no more than everyone else here.
I rest my case, Frogfish's "potty-mouth" baby ranting speaks for itself....... now the only question is when will the moderators ban this retarded 14 year old with the mentality of an 8 year old who is not mature enough to be on an adult forum.
It's funny how dozens of other people, knowledgable about Judao-Christian theology, see where I am coming from with this research into the dragons of the Bible. It is very clear to everyone else except the confirmed atheists and the one little retard. This is evident from the many intelligent adults who have commented favorably on these findings in the posts here and on other UM forums where we are discussing this subject. It is only one little immature, foul-mouthed child who is afraid to look up anything I have said, because he will find out that it is all true, (at least from a scriptural point of view, of course).
It's funny how dozens of other people, knowledgable about Judao-Christian theology, see where I am coming from with this research into the dragons of the Bible. It is very clear to everyone else except the confirmed atheists and the one little retard. This is evident from the many intelligent adults who have commented favorably on these findings in the posts here and on other UM forums where we are discussing this subject. It is only one little immature, foul-mouthed child who is afraid to look up anything I have said, because he will find out that it is all true, (at least from a scriptural point of view, of course).
DC, I agree totally. He's just acting like a fourth grader. And this is coming from the most immature mind on this forum... Maybe he should take a breather, come back when he's, like, in college, hopefully by then, he'd move out from his mother's bassment and stop being a StarWars fanatic.... 
Seriously, would you two stop fighting? All you do is b*tch and complain about each OTHER now, not each other's oppinions, and everyone has a right to there opinions. Plus. I believe DC is right, there where possible Dragons, but they might have died over the oceans of today, and we can't find fossils...
Seriously, would you two stop fighting? All you do is b*tch and complain about each OTHER now, not each other's oppinions, and everyone has a right to there opinions. Plus. I believe DC is right, there where possible Dragons, but they might have died over the oceans of today, and we can't find fossils...
You all are quite conceited are you?
Weel, i'll be unlike DC and actually give true facts and links.
http://www.foreignword.com/Tools/dictsrch....les/f_40_70.htm
Yes, they mean fiery sepents, but thta is because of the burning sensation of venom...in another word, they are snakes, not dragons.
Second, the second part describes them as angels, not dragons.
Weel, i'll be unlike DC and actually give true facts and links.
http://www.foreignword.com/Tools/dictsrch....les/f_40_70.htm
Yes, they mean fiery sepents, but thta is because of the burning sensation of venom...in another word, they are snakes, not dragons.
Second, the second part describes them as angels, not dragons.
QUOTE
I rest my case, Frogfish's "potty-mouth" baby ranting speaks for itself
Then I wonder what you have?
QUOTE
not mature enough to be on an adult forum.
Then why are you on? You are certainly not polite enough to be on..want me to go on?
QUOTE
I rest my case, Frogfish's "potty-mouth" baby ranting speaks for itself....... now the only question is when will the moderators ban this retarded 14 year old with the mentality of an 8 year old who is not mature enough to be on an adult forum.
It's funny how dozens of other people, knowledgable about Judao-Christian theology, see where I am coming from with this research into the dragons of the Bible. It is very clear to everyone else except the confirmed atheists and the one little retard. This is evident from the many intelligent adults who have commented favorably on these findings in the posts here and on other UM forums where we are discussing this subject. It is only one little immature, foul-mouthed child who is afraid to look up anything I have said, because he will find out that it is all true, (at least from a scriptural point of view, of course).
It's funny how dozens of other people, knowledgable about Judao-Christian theology, see where I am coming from with this research into the dragons of the Bible. It is very clear to everyone else except the confirmed atheists and the one little retard. This is evident from the many intelligent adults who have commented favorably on these findings in the posts here and on other UM forums where we are discussing this subject. It is only one little immature, foul-mouthed child who is afraid to look up anything I have said, because he will find out that it is all true, (at least from a scriptural point of view, of course).
Lets see how many facts and pieces of evidence he gave in that post...none. Same as is whole stay here at UM. lets see how much of the post is focused on making the totally wrong point of "I am smarter than frogfish, and more mature...nah nana nah na!" 110%.
Hmmmmmmm
Enough of the petty squabbling, swearing and name calling, the next person to post an insulting remark will be receiving a message in their mailbox from me.
DC, if you look at the links I have provided, and one by Mindfreak, there is plenty of evidence against dragons.
You claims that the Catholic Bible and angels are mistranslations right? How are you so sure that your texts are not mistranslated themselves, or that dragons are a whole mistranslation? They could easily of been mistranslated once a person saw a terrifying demon or Seraphim angel.
You claims that the Catholic Bible and angels are mistranslations right? How are you so sure that your texts are not mistranslated themselves, or that dragons are a whole mistranslation? They could easily of been mistranslated once a person saw a terrifying demon or Seraphim angel.
QUOTE(Daughter of the Nine Moons)
Enough of the petty squabbling, swearing and name calling,
Thank you MA'AMWith respect MF
QUOTE(Mind_Freak2012 @ Nov 20 2005, 08:23 AM) [snapback]940517[/snapback]
MF this is from your link:
QUOTE
Because angels are unseen spirit-beings their means of
flight must remain a mystery. We cannot know by what means of
movement a "spirit" is dispatched upon its errand.
All of the reference I seen at this web site was from the Bible.flight must remain a mystery. We cannot know by what means of
movement a "spirit" is dispatched upon its errand.
Also:
QUOTE
LUCIFER-MICHAEL-GABRIEL
Three celestial princes are named in the Scriptures: Lucifer ("son of
the morning")--Michael (Hebrew, "who is like God")--Gabriel ("mighty
one").
Did you know that the original Bible was written in hebrew?Three celestial princes are named in the Scriptures: Lucifer ("son of
the morning")--Michael (Hebrew, "who is like God")--Gabriel ("mighty
one").
Did you know that Lucifer is a latin name?
How did a latin word/name get into an ancient hebrew religious document?
Just a thought!
Okay Frogfish, if you have now finally discovered that Seraphim means a fiery flying serpent, now go to the description in Isaiah which states they also have wings, arms and legs. I think most people would call a winged, fiery serpentine creature with arms and legs a dragon. At least this is what the greatest catholic theologians called them. The hebrew word we translate to dragon is Tannyn. This is the creature that also swallows Jonah, another swallows moses in Talmudic literature, it is the creatures that sing praises to God in Psalm, just like the singing Seraphim dragons in Isaiah. The fiery part is not because of their bite, it is because they attend the heavenly altar fire, which they keep lit with their fiery breath. They touch a burning coal from their fire to the lips of Isaiah. The fiery venom is based on the description of the Seraphim that punish the Israelites in the wildnerness. The exact same term for them is used in this passage, but some people would believe God commanded normal pea-brained snakes to punish the Israelites, and not the reptilian Seraphim servants. This is still a point of debate, but the fact remains the exact same translation is used to indicate a reptiloid creature in both instances, NOT a winged Greco Roman human diety as most Christians have perverted the scripture.
If it makes you feel better to call them fiery serpents/Seraphim instead of dragons that is your perogative. However the Bible calls them both dragons and seraphim. For example, the Seraphim of the Egyptians are usually just winged cobras, although sometimes they have arms and legs making them more of a dragon. This is another reason why some modern theologians try to hide the fact that the Seraphim are winged fiery serpents. Since these creatures also guard Egyptian Gods, they don't want their congregations to think there is a connection between pagan religions and the Christian one. It is the same thing with the serpents and dragons that guard "trees of life" in different cultures all over the world. Some Christians do not want to admit that their Cherubim are exactly the same thing as the serpent-dragons in the pagan religions but it is really undeniable.
But you can look at it too ways. You can try to cover up the fact as most christians have done, which only makes them look foolish and dishonest or you can concede that many different religions may have the same "truths", and one of the undeniable truths of them all, is that dragons are guardians and servants to the higher God or Gods in religions all over the world.. Any college student of comparitive religions know this. They also know that some of these "dragons" are good, and some are bad in the various religions. Technically Satan is not "bad" at all in the Old Testament, as Jewish theologians will tell you. but his role changes in the new testament, largely because of the connection with the ficticious lucifer mistranslation, and the heavy influence of Zorastrianism with its "Bad dragon" Ahriman, who get bound in chains and cast into an abyss just as St. John plagarizes as the fate of Satan in the book of Revelations..
The same thing applies to Cherubim. On the sacred menorah of the Jerusalem temple, they are winged dragons in the classical sense, when they are "covering Cherubs" in some ancient Christian Church mosaics, depicting Gods "living throne" of these creatures, they can appear as either dragons, winged serpents, or just huge serpent, just as the Cherubim that guard heaven in other early chruch mosaics. Why do you think there are all the dragon-like gargoyles decorating Medieval churches, they are "guarding" the chruch, just as the dragons that guard the gates of heaven, the gates of Sheol, the garden of Eden (which is why there are dragons guarding sacred trees in many other cultures as well, and the Covering Cherub dragons around the throne of God. This was all done by the earliest Christians, irregardless of how attitudes may have changed later. It is archaeology and cannot be disputed.
Now when we come to the New Testament, the translation of the Greek "serpent" can mean either a little normal snake, a giant supernatural snake that is a servant to the Gods (in both Christianity and Pagan Greek theology), or a more conventional winged dragon with arms and legs (Ketos). People who do not know this are puzzled why Jesus told is disciples to be "Wise as serpents". Did he mean a normal snake? Of course not. He could have only meant a heavenly dragon, which would have been understood by both Jewish and Greek audiences. This is why Athena is also potrayed with a huge guardian serpent or dragon, they were symbols of wisdom, and many dragon legends throughout the world reflect this as well.
As previously stated, nowhere in the bible does it describe Satan, other than as a "dragon". This strongly suggests he was either a Seraphim or Cherubim, and not a Humanoid angel. The connection with a mythical fallen angel called "lucifer" must be completely dismissed for as Zandore stated in his latest post we now know this was only a mistranslation of a passage referring to a foreign king and not a fallen angel. But also, with that realization, a serious Biblical scholar is forced to reexamine the role of Satan in the Bible, and it is possible that a reappraisal is due, but this is not the subject of this thread, but rather the dragon "form"" of Satan, and other Biblical creatures recorded numerous times in the Bible and related Judao-Christain literature.
If it makes you feel better to call them fiery serpents/Seraphim instead of dragons that is your perogative. However the Bible calls them both dragons and seraphim. For example, the Seraphim of the Egyptians are usually just winged cobras, although sometimes they have arms and legs making them more of a dragon. This is another reason why some modern theologians try to hide the fact that the Seraphim are winged fiery serpents. Since these creatures also guard Egyptian Gods, they don't want their congregations to think there is a connection between pagan religions and the Christian one. It is the same thing with the serpents and dragons that guard "trees of life" in different cultures all over the world. Some Christians do not want to admit that their Cherubim are exactly the same thing as the serpent-dragons in the pagan religions but it is really undeniable.
But you can look at it too ways. You can try to cover up the fact as most christians have done, which only makes them look foolish and dishonest or you can concede that many different religions may have the same "truths", and one of the undeniable truths of them all, is that dragons are guardians and servants to the higher God or Gods in religions all over the world.. Any college student of comparitive religions know this. They also know that some of these "dragons" are good, and some are bad in the various religions. Technically Satan is not "bad" at all in the Old Testament, as Jewish theologians will tell you. but his role changes in the new testament, largely because of the connection with the ficticious lucifer mistranslation, and the heavy influence of Zorastrianism with its "Bad dragon" Ahriman, who get bound in chains and cast into an abyss just as St. John plagarizes as the fate of Satan in the book of Revelations..
The same thing applies to Cherubim. On the sacred menorah of the Jerusalem temple, they are winged dragons in the classical sense, when they are "covering Cherubs" in some ancient Christian Church mosaics, depicting Gods "living throne" of these creatures, they can appear as either dragons, winged serpents, or just huge serpent, just as the Cherubim that guard heaven in other early chruch mosaics. Why do you think there are all the dragon-like gargoyles decorating Medieval churches, they are "guarding" the chruch, just as the dragons that guard the gates of heaven, the gates of Sheol, the garden of Eden (which is why there are dragons guarding sacred trees in many other cultures as well, and the Covering Cherub dragons around the throne of God. This was all done by the earliest Christians, irregardless of how attitudes may have changed later. It is archaeology and cannot be disputed.
Now when we come to the New Testament, the translation of the Greek "serpent" can mean either a little normal snake, a giant supernatural snake that is a servant to the Gods (in both Christianity and Pagan Greek theology), or a more conventional winged dragon with arms and legs (Ketos). People who do not know this are puzzled why Jesus told is disciples to be "Wise as serpents". Did he mean a normal snake? Of course not. He could have only meant a heavenly dragon, which would have been understood by both Jewish and Greek audiences. This is why Athena is also potrayed with a huge guardian serpent or dragon, they were symbols of wisdom, and many dragon legends throughout the world reflect this as well.
As previously stated, nowhere in the bible does it describe Satan, other than as a "dragon". This strongly suggests he was either a Seraphim or Cherubim, and not a Humanoid angel. The connection with a mythical fallen angel called "lucifer" must be completely dismissed for as Zandore stated in his latest post we now know this was only a mistranslation of a passage referring to a foreign king and not a fallen angel. But also, with that realization, a serious Biblical scholar is forced to reexamine the role of Satan in the Bible, and it is possible that a reappraisal is due, but this is not the subject of this thread, but rather the dragon "form"" of Satan, and other Biblical creatures recorded numerous times in the Bible and related Judao-Christain literature.
But Dragons dont have human faces and limbs, as "Cherubim" and "Seraphim" were described in Isahiah and Ezekial.
Also they were multi-winged, unlike dragons.
Also they were multi-winged, unlike dragons.
QUOTE(frogfish @ Nov 19 2005, 05:41 PM) [snapback]939220[/snapback]
And you must go to college to learn how to spell and type.
Wow, didn't I just prove your whole statement wrong? Sorry, looks like I don't need your offer...
First of all, yes the "slavery-issue" is true in that sense that the winners of the civilwar wanted it that way, but from the beginning it had nothing to do with that... Ecomony... That's the reson of all wars.
And about my poor english I apologize. However, as you might be able to read in the left colon it says I'm from a country named "Sweden", that's in Europe (if you didn't know). And over here we don't have english as a native language - hence my misspelling. But at the age of 14 I could not only swedish (which is our native tounge) but also english and german... How many languages can you speak and write? AND how good are you at those? Plz do answer this, because I do not take this attack from you lightly... It's really outraging that you start to criticize my language since I have not done anything to you! THAT, kiddo, shows your inmaturity rather well I'm afraid... As we say here, Fall på eget grepp... Pucko
Furthermore, DC has truely provided solid evidence. You've been quoting the bible all along - the american version at that too! - while DC's gotten to the original source and read it in hebrew, if I understand it correctly, which provide a far better source than your bible. AND he's gone to other sources as well, and this really speaks in his favore. If you could give us (well, me in this case) just as good evidence and say that you've been looking through several sources in the original language I'd be forced to believe you as well. But this you have not!
BTW, Zandore is right regarding "Lucifer". That's a latin word for "Light bearer/bringer" and was added to the bible later on. And I think that jews don't have a thing called Hell (but I am not quite sure about this), and therefore Hell was invented by christians, whom also toke the Devils apperence from the pagan greeks. The Devil with the goat legs and horns is taken from the greeks satyr (do not know the english spelling), I guess you know what mythological creature I'm speaking of? He's playing the flute...
QUOTE(draconic chronicler @ Nov 19 2005, 07:04 PM) [snapback]939665[/snapback]
Frogfish you little baby. I have said where the information came from in over 100 posts. Many other people are able to comprehend this. And many of the sources came from the greatest Catholic theologians, who being a child, you probably don't even know. But even a 14 year old child should be able to grasp this. Are you retarded? It must be the only explantion why you cannot comprehend these things.
Dragon dude, who the hell do you think you are? Obviously, for one so "well schooled" in the ways of the Bible, you certainly don't practice what you preach. I'll spell that out a little more clearly for you, with some logic.
The Bible tells people how to be good and kind, and to treat each other with respect. You have done anything but that. You have resorted to some very immature comments meant to hurt and offend, comments I believe wouldn't come from a "writer" or one schooled in the ways of the catholic church, as you claim to be.
I don't want to have to e-mail a mod, they have better things to do, I'm sure. So please do us all a favor, and leave. The option, of course, will hopefully be permanate bannage. I'll keep my fingers crossed on that one.
PS Frogfish, I 'm with you.
hechtal: for your information frogfish isn't a saint either... He's attacking everyone! But I have to agree that we all should set aside all this BS...
QUOTE(draconic chronicler @ Nov 20 2005, 07:09 PM) [snapback]941337[/snapback]
irregardless of how attitudes may have changed later.
I'm looking forward to the book and all, but regardless of what you heard, "irregardless" is a redundancy. It doesn't need the negative prefix "ir" (not a word anyway)...
QUOTE(Vidgange @ Nov 21 2005, 03:10 AM) [snapback]941871[/snapback]
shows your inmaturity rather well I'm afraid... As we say here, Fall på eget grepp... Pucko
And I think that jews don't have a thing called Hell, and therefore Hell was invented by christians
To begin with, this is an English speaking site. And hell is not a Christian invention. Christians were hardly original anyway. Sheol is considered one of the primary sources of the Christian hell.
"Sheol" is a Hebrew word used for the abode of the dead. It is thought of as a place situated below the ground (e.g. Ezek. 31:15), a place of darkness, silence and forgetfulness (Job 10:21; Ps. 94:17, 88:12). Although the dead in sheol are apparently cut off from God (Ps. 88:3-5), he is not absent (Ps. 139:8), and is able to deliver souls from sheol (Ps. 16:10). It is sometimes translated as "hell"; however, it is not seen as a place of eternal punishment, and its use in the New Testament (e.g. Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:27) suggests a meaning relating simply to the power of death."
edit:http://www.dpjs.co.uk/hell.html
I'll translate my words: Fall on your own grip, more or less...
No, I agree Christians weren't specially original at all. They just stole from other religions, which every religion have done since the beginning of time... What I meant was merely that Hell don't exist for jews as it does for Christians. It really is a fact that Christianity has stolen and altered alot of what's written in the Bible... But if you are a "hardcore-fan" of the bible and very religious it's hard to see and acknowlegde that...
No, I agree Christians weren't specially original at all. They just stole from other religions, which every religion have done since the beginning of time... What I meant was merely that Hell don't exist for jews as it does for Christians. It really is a fact that Christianity has stolen and altered alot of what's written in the Bible... But if you are a "hardcore-fan" of the bible and very religious it's hard to see and acknowlegde that...
QUOTE
Hell was invented by christians
If that's what you meant, it really contradicts this statement.
Problem with translation perhaps
Well alright - you got me there! you got me gooood! 
Maybe they didn't invent Hell as a place and thought, but I do believe that they formed it the way we now think of it: with fire and eternal punishment with a Devil running around. Hell as we know was invented by the Church to keep their minions at bay... Can u say so?
Maybe they didn't invent Hell as a place and thought, but I do believe that they formed it the way we now think of it: with fire and eternal punishment with a Devil running around. Hell as we know was invented by the Church to keep their minions at bay... Can u say so?
Vid, the Jews also fell prey to false, foreign beliefs, and this is admitted in the Bible, but not nearly on the wholesale scale of the Christians, who lifted whole passages from Zorastrian mythology and and still regard it "divinely inspired scripture", all because some Pope decided which scriptures would be left in, or left out of the Bible. Most people are just discovering that fact now.
The hebrew resting place for the dead was Sheol (which in the Book of Enoch was also guarded by serpent-headed, sharp toothed Cherubim dragons, as was other precincts of heaven). Later, after Alexander conquered the land and it was inundated by Greek culture, the Jews also adopted a kind of punishing Hades called "Gehenna", but it was reserved only to torment pagans, not Jews.
The Christian Hell then is a combination of the Jewish Gehenna and Greek Hades but to the popular Christian mentality everyone who does not believe the way they do is destined to suffer there. Jesus may not have even believed in this pagan hell. His curious mention of an immortal "worm" that torments sinners with fire may allude to the heavenly dragons, for like in medieval europe, dragons were sometimes referred to as "wyrmes" in Jesus' time.
Compare this with the Apocolypes of Baruch, in which an angel states tht the heavenly dragons devour (the souls) of the wicked, and later the angel states that the "bellies" of the dragons themselves are the punishment of hell, not some mythological place under the earth. This was understood by many ancient and medieval people, as reflected by their impression of hell as a dragons mouth, as can be seen scupted on the facades of many of the great (Catholic) Cathredrals of Europe. This idea finally lost precedence with the popularity of the book Inferno by Dante, with is mostly based on Greek mythologcial ideas rather than Christian theology.
Frogfish, the seraphim are NEVER described as having a human face in the Bible........ period.
The ONLY place in the bible in which Cherubim may have a human face, is the strange description in Ezekiel, where the word was misused, becasue he is destribing a wheeled chariot. We know there are mistakes in this scripture because Talmudic sources confirm that God would not want one of these four symbolic faces to be a Bull, but a Cherub instead. This proves that this "Chariot" is not a "Cherub" and also that the Cherub's face could not be like a humans, one of the other four creatures in the chariot vision, becasue it would not be different from a human's face.. We know from a multitude of other sources that the cherubim looked like serpent-dragons, which is why sacred trees are guarded by such creatures in many cultures including the hebrew one. Also when God is described riding the Cherub-dragon in psalms, it doesn't mention the strange wheels of Ezekiel, or a creature with many faces. It is just a great, winged dragon-like creature, with fire spewing from its mouth and smoke from its nostrils in typical dragon form. And like I said before, in all the old CATHOLIC illuminated bibles, when this Psalm is illustrated, the Cherubim is always depicted as a DRAGON, even in the POPE's personal Bible which I have seen with my own eyes in the Vatican library. In fact, there are sculptures of DRAGONS all over the vatican. Do you know why Frogfish? It is because it was the personal heraldic family emblem of SEVERAL POPES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! Would the Pope have the symbol of the devil? No, because it is only you who have these ideas of dragons being "evil", not the Catholic church. If you knew more about your own religilon you would know that God not only sends dragons to help or punish the Hebrews but they are even sent to help at least one Christain Saint. Saint George does not even slay a dragon in any of the official church literature. A Medieval french storyteller just added this to the story over 1000 years after the real St. George lived! But the fairytale was very popular and brought money to the Church, so they happily added this fairytale to the real story of St. George. I think that's why St. George was discredited now. Too bad, the real St George was a brave Roman soldier who died a martyr rather than deny his Christain relgion, a story that has nothing to do with a medieval knight slaying heavenly creatures that in the Old Testament destroyed whole cities and armies. But then, the whole dragon story was dreamed up by an ignorant story teller with no idea of real Christian theology.
The hebrew resting place for the dead was Sheol (which in the Book of Enoch was also guarded by serpent-headed, sharp toothed Cherubim dragons, as was other precincts of heaven). Later, after Alexander conquered the land and it was inundated by Greek culture, the Jews also adopted a kind of punishing Hades called "Gehenna", but it was reserved only to torment pagans, not Jews.
The Christian Hell then is a combination of the Jewish Gehenna and Greek Hades but to the popular Christian mentality everyone who does not believe the way they do is destined to suffer there. Jesus may not have even believed in this pagan hell. His curious mention of an immortal "worm" that torments sinners with fire may allude to the heavenly dragons, for like in medieval europe, dragons were sometimes referred to as "wyrmes" in Jesus' time.
Compare this with the Apocolypes of Baruch, in which an angel states tht the heavenly dragons devour (the souls) of the wicked, and later the angel states that the "bellies" of the dragons themselves are the punishment of hell, not some mythological place under the earth. This was understood by many ancient and medieval people, as reflected by their impression of hell as a dragons mouth, as can be seen scupted on the facades of many of the great (Catholic) Cathredrals of Europe. This idea finally lost precedence with the popularity of the book Inferno by Dante, with is mostly based on Greek mythologcial ideas rather than Christian theology.
Frogfish, the seraphim are NEVER described as having a human face in the Bible........ period.
The ONLY place in the bible in which Cherubim may have a human face, is the strange description in Ezekiel, where the word was misused, becasue he is destribing a wheeled chariot. We know there are mistakes in this scripture because Talmudic sources confirm that God would not want one of these four symbolic faces to be a Bull, but a Cherub instead. This proves that this "Chariot" is not a "Cherub" and also that the Cherub's face could not be like a humans, one of the other four creatures in the chariot vision, becasue it would not be different from a human's face.. We know from a multitude of other sources that the cherubim looked like serpent-dragons, which is why sacred trees are guarded by such creatures in many cultures including the hebrew one. Also when God is described riding the Cherub-dragon in psalms, it doesn't mention the strange wheels of Ezekiel, or a creature with many faces. It is just a great, winged dragon-like creature, with fire spewing from its mouth and smoke from its nostrils in typical dragon form. And like I said before, in all the old CATHOLIC illuminated bibles, when this Psalm is illustrated, the Cherubim is always depicted as a DRAGON, even in the POPE's personal Bible which I have seen with my own eyes in the Vatican library. In fact, there are sculptures of DRAGONS all over the vatican. Do you know why Frogfish? It is because it was the personal heraldic family emblem of SEVERAL POPES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! Would the Pope have the symbol of the devil? No, because it is only you who have these ideas of dragons being "evil", not the Catholic church. If you knew more about your own religilon you would know that God not only sends dragons to help or punish the Hebrews but they are even sent to help at least one Christain Saint. Saint George does not even slay a dragon in any of the official church literature. A Medieval french storyteller just added this to the story over 1000 years after the real St. George lived! But the fairytale was very popular and brought money to the Church, so they happily added this fairytale to the real story of St. George. I think that's why St. George was discredited now. Too bad, the real St George was a brave Roman soldier who died a martyr rather than deny his Christain relgion, a story that has nothing to do with a medieval knight slaying heavenly creatures that in the Old Testament destroyed whole cities and armies. But then, the whole dragon story was dreamed up by an ignorant story teller with no idea of real Christian theology.
Ok frogfish.
Ever thoughtthat your angels were not angels?
DC, ever thought that your dragons might not be dragons?
When Ezekial described the angels, he might not have seen what he described. He said they had wings. How would you describe something you would havenever seen before?
The only wings that they knew back then, were those of birds. If your angel was an airplane, then why couldn't Ezekial call it's wings "wings"? It flies, and it has flat things sticking out of it.
Ever thoughtthat your angels were not angels?
DC, ever thought that your dragons might not be dragons?
When Ezekial described the angels, he might not have seen what he described. He said they had wings. How would you describe something you would havenever seen before?
The only wings that they knew back then, were those of birds. If your angel was an airplane, then why couldn't Ezekial call it's wings "wings"? It flies, and it has flat things sticking out of it.
Perhaps all of it is folklore and nothing else. No need to read more into it.
I am sorry, I just saw this thread and I realise this was posted long ago, but...
Elephants being raped by Dragons?
Ranger: We found another one.
Ranger 2: Hips Broken?
Ranger: Yup.
Ranger 2: Damn those Dragon rapists, damn them to hell!
I seriously hope you don't really believe that dragons rape elephants.
QUOTE
Frogfish, I have been to India many time and they do have many types of dragons there. I have several Indian dragon god statues in my collection. In fact, many of the ancient historians refer to india as being one of there favorite places, and this, in fact is true, for they enjoy raping elephants.
Elephants being raped by Dragons?
Ranger: We found another one.
Ranger 2: Hips Broken?
Ranger: Yup.
Ranger 2: Damn those Dragon rapists, damn them to hell!
I seriously hope you don't really believe that dragons rape elephants.
I hate when dragons rape elephants. Its just not right.lol
Exactly, and it adds insult to injury because Elephants 'never forget.'
QUOTE(Mr Ed)
I seriously hope you don't really believe that dragons rape elephants.
Did you read the whole post? Or at least a certain persons post QUOTE(ericraven2003)
I hate when dragons rape elephants. Its just not right.lol
SEND OUT THE KNIGHTS IN SHINNING ARMOR!
Zandore, the success of Knights in shining armor against dragons has been greatly exagerated, which is why no dragon bones have ever been found.
As for dragons raping elephants, there are many accounts of travelers in anceint and medieval times of dragons "embracing" elephants though they incorrectly speculated they are "fighting" (though in truth, the elephants may be fighting, come to think of it). There is even a poem from the Roman poet Lucan from the time of Nero about dragons and elephants.
Rape may be too strong a word. Some elephants may in fact, enjoy the experience, and perhpas the dragons mark the willing ones and reward them with "treats" for their cooperation.
As for dragons raping elephants, there are many accounts of travelers in anceint and medieval times of dragons "embracing" elephants though they incorrectly speculated they are "fighting" (though in truth, the elephants may be fighting, come to think of it). There is even a poem from the Roman poet Lucan from the time of Nero about dragons and elephants.
Rape may be too strong a word. Some elephants may in fact, enjoy the experience, and perhpas the dragons mark the willing ones and reward them with "treats" for their cooperation.
Now I have heard it all 
Noe that DC is bothering. It's like cats raping camels (or the other way around)
I do not think that dragons were so keen on reproducing with other species that might totaly not resemble their kind.
I was also expecting more replies on my last post, so i'll just spill it all out.
Ezekial said that the seraphims had four faces, and as far as i know, during WWII, pilots painted faces onto their plaines. Also, dragons roar, as do the engines of planes.
I do not think that dragons were so keen on reproducing with other species that might totaly not resemble their kind.
I was also expecting more replies on my last post, so i'll just spill it all out.
Ezekial said that the seraphims had four faces, and as far as i know, during WWII, pilots painted faces onto their plaines. Also, dragons roar, as do the engines of planes.
QUOTE(indeed @ Nov 21 2005, 10:17 PM) [snapback]943261[/snapback]
Now I have heard it all indeed!.......
Lapi'che
QUOTE(Jeenuh @ Oct 29 2005, 06:17 AM) [snapback]908244[/snapback]
Quick question.
Did dragons ever exist?
me and my boyfriend are arguing about it, he's convinced they did.
also they have to be FIRE breathing dragons!
Read dragonalagy, it's helpfull!
Nogard, you are mixing up Seraphim with Cherubim. That passage about the 4 our faced wheel vehicles uses the word Cherubim but as I mentioned in a previous post this is probably a mistake. This is the ONLY reference to Cherubim is such a strange context. every where else they are described as huge winged creatures with only one face, and it is the face "like a serpent" with sharp teeth.
Maybe Ezekiel is describing a UFO as von Daniken thought, but I think it is a heavenly chariot. Hebrew war chariots of Ezekiels time were drawn by four horses, and here we have four "faces" or aspects.
As for the dragons trying to create offspring by fornicating with elephants, I doubt that. It was probably for simple gratification. Remember that all of the angels in the bible are male, and that some of them got into trouble for having sex with women. And quite amusingly, this small incident evolved into the so-called "war in heaven with fallen angels and all of that, but it never happened. The heavenly dragons were apparently all male also, so had to find "other means". As far as the elephants, I am just going on what the legends say of dragons "embracing" them. You must use you own imagination.
Maybe Ezekiel is describing a UFO as von Daniken thought, but I think it is a heavenly chariot. Hebrew war chariots of Ezekiels time were drawn by four horses, and here we have four "faces" or aspects.
As for the dragons trying to create offspring by fornicating with elephants, I doubt that. It was probably for simple gratification. Remember that all of the angels in the bible are male, and that some of them got into trouble for having sex with women. And quite amusingly, this small incident evolved into the so-called "war in heaven with fallen angels and all of that, but it never happened. The heavenly dragons were apparently all male also, so had to find "other means". As far as the elephants, I am just going on what the legends say of dragons "embracing" them. You must use you own imagination.
QUOTE(draconic chronicler @ Nov 21 2005, 05:58 PM) [snapback]943026[/snapback]
Zandore, the success of Knights in shining armor against dragons has been greatly exagerated, which is why no dragon bones have ever been found.
LMAO!
That has to be the most asinine post I've read from you. So, what you're saying is, the reason no dragon bones have been found is because the Knights of old were bad at doing their job?
I thought you said they were angelic creatures. I had no idea Knights could kill angels.
QUOTE
As for dragons raping elephants, there are many accounts of travelers in anceint and medieval times of dragons "embracing" elephants though they incorrectly speculated they are "fighting" (though in truth, the elephants may be fighting, come to think of it). There is even a poem from the Roman poet Lucan from the time of Nero about dragons and elephants.
Once again, you've twisted the facts to fit your assumptions. To the Romans, a dragon was a giant snake, and not the mythological monster being discussed here. The accounts you mention are simply exaggerated stories of pythons. Pliny's story tells of a python wrapping itself around an elephant, crushing the life out of it, then being killed itself when the elephant fell over. It has nothing to do with rape.
QUOTE
Rape may be too strong a word. Some elephants may in fact, enjoy the experience, and perhpas the dragons mark the willing ones and reward them with "treats" for their cooperation.
QUOTE
As for the dragons trying to create offspring by fornicating with elephants, I doubt that. It was probably for simple gratification. Remember that all of the angels in the bible are male, and that some of them got into trouble for having sex with women. And quite amusingly, this small incident evolved into the so-called "war in heaven with fallen angels and all of that, but it never happened. The heavenly dragons were apparently all male also, so had to find "other means". As far as the elephants, I am just going on what the legends say of dragons "embracing" them. You must use you own imagination.
I see where you're coming from. The elephant was asking for it....
Source, I am surpised you did not understand my comment, but I was implying the knights merely lied about slaying dragons, or the stories were invented long afterwards as I stated on the post about St. George. If we accept the Bible as the word of God, then yes, dragons are immortal supernatural creatures that cannot be killed by men, just as the fossil record bears out, despite the firm belief in these creatures around the world for thousands of years of recorded history. For as I said before, if anyone actually killed a dragon, its hide and bones would be worth a fortune, just like Narwhale horns sold as "unicorn" horns.
Zandore, for someone who "likes" dragons as you claim, I am surprised how little you know about the dragons recorded in historical sources. Perhaps you interest extends only to modern fantasy, but most of these writers are wholly ignorant of the subject.
As for Roman dragons, you are completely wrong. The poem by Lucan about the elephants and dragon mentions the dragon flying over africa on huge wings. Yes, zandore, WINGS. Obviously if it were just a "big snake" as you say, they wouldn't have wings, right?
Also, one of Rome's most famous monuments (Augustus' Peace Monument), portrays a very detailed dragon with long serpentine neck, conected to a broader body with wings and great clawed feet. Obviously not a snake. The dragon that swallows Jonah in many examples of early Christain art from the Roman period are also dragons with clawed feet and usually wings. And the list goes on and on.
But yes, regular serpents without legs are also associated with the Gods. The supernatural snakes in Roman art usually have a beard-like appendage. But because winged dragons and serpents are both reptiles connected to the God's, it is possible for there to be some confusion in understanding this, even as we see in the Bible, as many posts on this subject have commented on.
Modern writers, like the source you mentioned, automatically claim that the dragons "embracing" elephants are merely referring to pythons, which in real life, would never try to constrict an elephant. They automatically imagine everyone in those timese were stupid, but this is not the case, they were keen observers of the natural world. But as you can see, these modern writers are wrong. The Roman poet Lucan, and other sources refer to winged flying dragons embracing elephants that have nothing to do with pythons.
So why are the dragons embracing the elephants? They are not trying to eat them, so use your imagination, and remember, that dragons, like angels, all seem to be male, yet like the angel story in Enoch , apparently have sexual urges despite their heavenly status. Few living creatures would be as "compatible" in size with dragons as elephants, and here we have all of the elephant and dragon "contact" legends, from Rome to India and beyond.
Zandore, for someone who "likes" dragons as you claim, I am surprised how little you know about the dragons recorded in historical sources. Perhaps you interest extends only to modern fantasy, but most of these writers are wholly ignorant of the subject.
As for Roman dragons, you are completely wrong. The poem by Lucan about the elephants and dragon mentions the dragon flying over africa on huge wings. Yes, zandore, WINGS. Obviously if it were just a "big snake" as you say, they wouldn't have wings, right?
Also, one of Rome's most famous monuments (Augustus' Peace Monument), portrays a very detailed dragon with long serpentine neck, conected to a broader body with wings and great clawed feet. Obviously not a snake. The dragon that swallows Jonah in many examples of early Christain art from the Roman period are also dragons with clawed feet and usually wings. And the list goes on and on.
But yes, regular serpents without legs are also associated with the Gods. The supernatural snakes in Roman art usually have a beard-like appendage. But because winged dragons and serpents are both reptiles connected to the God's, it is possible for there to be some confusion in understanding this, even as we see in the Bible, as many posts on this subject have commented on.
Modern writers, like the source you mentioned, automatically claim that the dragons "embracing" elephants are merely referring to pythons, which in real life, would never try to constrict an elephant. They automatically imagine everyone in those timese were stupid, but this is not the case, they were keen observers of the natural world. But as you can see, these modern writers are wrong. The Roman poet Lucan, and other sources refer to winged flying dragons embracing elephants that have nothing to do with pythons.
So why are the dragons embracing the elephants? They are not trying to eat them, so use your imagination, and remember, that dragons, like angels, all seem to be male, yet like the angel story in Enoch , apparently have sexual urges despite their heavenly status. Few living creatures would be as "compatible" in size with dragons as elephants, and here we have all of the elephant and dragon "contact" legends, from Rome to India and beyond.
But what I'd like to know is how other sources, exept the bible, think of dragons... The biblical dragons have been under discusion for quite some time, and I'm entirely with DC on that since he has laid out very good facts and sources. He's done a rather good detective work and dug out some good texts - original texts. That's what historians do: digging up facts and analyze them.
But how is dragons looked at in the rest of the world? That's what I wanna know. I've grown tired of the biblical references, so now I wanna hear something else.
But how is dragons looked at in the rest of the world? That's what I wanna know. I've grown tired of the biblical references, so now I wanna hear something else.
Vid,
I am putting the most emphasis in this work on the biblical dragons because virtually half the world population acknowledges the bible as the word of God, so when dealing with creatures suspected of being only a myth, the bible is the most unimpeachable source.
Of course, if the biblical dragons are "real" they would still be seen by other ancient peoples who would draw their own conclusions. The book does get into all of that too. For example, the Persians feared and hated dragons in their religion/stories and claimed that the God of the Bible was a dragon as well. Why? Perhaps it was because the Persians were the enemies of the Jews, and dragons were sent to punish them on occasion. For example, a governor of Babylon was reported to be eaten by a dragon in his bed, after he persecuted the Jews living there. And this is claimed to be in answer of prayers to God.
Dragons generally have a "bad" reputation in Northern Europe, but consider, if you were a real, heavenly dragon on a furlough, and were free to harm pagans and unbelievers where would you go? Wouldn't Northern Europe be a good choice? Due to the inactivity in winter, and their cattlle based economy, and diets filled with milk, cheese and meat, Northern europeans were probably the fattest humans in the ancient world, and lived in highly flammable houses made of wood with grass roofs. And the most significant part of their culture was feasting and becoming helplessly drunk in their great mead halls. So it is no wonder there are all the legends about dragons attacking these people. Why eat a stringy little chinaman, which to a dragon, a German or Viking would be like the richest candies....... fattening and usually filled with alcohol.
And most important, in these northern lands there were no historians, scientists or recorded history for centuries, so dragons were free to entertain themselves there, until finally, these peoples became Christians, and they too then were "off-limits". This is perhaps one of the reasons the warlike pagans of Northern Europe accepted Christianity so quickly, and why during this period there was an influx of Saint stories indicating Christianity had power over the dragons that terrorized the Northmen.
I am putting the most emphasis in this work on the biblical dragons because virtually half the world population acknowledges the bible as the word of God, so when dealing with creatures suspected of being only a myth, the bible is the most unimpeachable source.
Of course, if the biblical dragons are "real" they would still be seen by other ancient peoples who would draw their own conclusions. The book does get into all of that too. For example, the Persians feared and hated dragons in their religion/stories and claimed that the God of the Bible was a dragon as well. Why? Perhaps it was because the Persians were the enemies of the Jews, and dragons were sent to punish them on occasion. For example, a governor of Babylon was reported to be eaten by a dragon in his bed, after he persecuted the Jews living there. And this is claimed to be in answer of prayers to God.
Dragons generally have a "bad" reputation in Northern Europe, but consider, if you were a real, heavenly dragon on a furlough, and were free to harm pagans and unbelievers where would you go? Wouldn't Northern Europe be a good choice? Due to the inactivity in winter, and their cattlle based economy, and diets filled with milk, cheese and meat, Northern europeans were probably the fattest humans in the ancient world, and lived in highly flammable houses made of wood with grass roofs. And the most significant part of their culture was feasting and becoming helplessly drunk in their great mead halls. So it is no wonder there are all the legends about dragons attacking these people. Why eat a stringy little chinaman, which to a dragon, a German or Viking would be like the richest candies....... fattening and usually filled with alcohol.
And most important, in these northern lands there were no historians, scientists or recorded history for centuries, so dragons were free to entertain themselves there, until finally, these peoples became Christians, and they too then were "off-limits". This is perhaps one of the reasons the warlike pagans of Northern Europe accepted Christianity so quickly, and why during this period there was an influx of Saint stories indicating Christianity had power over the dragons that terrorized the Northmen.
QUOTE
The Roman poet Lucan, and other sources refer to winged flying dragons embracing elephants that have nothing to do with pythons.
The dragon that was embracing the elephant could of been eating it. Dragons are huge, therefore they need a loot of food. It is a poets job to over exadurate, and use beatifull words. It also might of been a mistranslation from latin to english, just like in the bible. So far you have only stated one source, but if you will give me more examples, i might believe you.
yeah I believe they did exist... well maybe not fire breathing but none the less they did
QUOTE(draconic chronicler @ Nov 21 2005, 07:58 PM) [snapback]943026[/snapback]
Zandore, the success of Knights in shining armor against dragons has been greatly exagerated, which is why no dragon bones have ever been found.
OK then "SEND IN THE BLACK KNIGHTS"!
QUOTE
As for dragons raping elephants, there are many accounts of travelers in anceint and medieval times of dragons "embracing" elephants though they incorrectly speculated they are "fighting" (though in truth, the elephants may be fighting, come to think of it). There is even a poem from the Roman poet Lucan from the time of Nero about dragons and elephants.
You are basing this on a poem? QUOTE
Rape may be too strong a word. Some elephants may in fact, enjoy the experience, and perhpas the dragons mark the willing ones and reward them with "treats" for their cooperation.
DC I got just the job for you......An author of fiction and fantasy
Elephants that like to get raped!
QUOTE(draconic chronicler @ Nov 22 2005, 07:15 AM) [snapback]943794[/snapback]
Zandore, for someone who "likes" dragons as you claim, I am surprised how little you know about the dragons recorded in historical sources. Perhaps you interest extends only to modern fantasy, but most of these writers are wholly ignorant of the subject.
I said I LIKED them not believed in them.
Elephant rape must be stopped, I never knew that dragons were such unscroupulous scoundrels.
the funny thing about this thread is the title...dragon..and whats written after that? get it (little too easy)...is this handy work someone who wish to support some elses work and believes...the thread starter hasnt been seen after the first post? thats funny...isnt it!
I wonder when this thread will end. It just keeps going around in circles, I hope eventually someone will turn this Roller Coaster off.
NOGARD
No, he saw the "angels"
QUOTE
Ok frogfish.
Ever thoughtthat your angels were not angels?
DC, ever thought that your dragons might not be dragons?
When Ezekial described the angels, he might not have seen what he described. He said they had wings. How would you describe something you would havenever seen before?
The only wings that they knew back then, were those of birds. If your angel was an airplane, then why couldn't Ezekial call it's wings "wings"? It flies, and it has flat things sticking out of it.
Ever thoughtthat your angels were not angels?
DC, ever thought that your dragons might not be dragons?
When Ezekial described the angels, he might not have seen what he described. He said they had wings. How would you describe something you would havenever seen before?
The only wings that they knew back then, were those of birds. If your angel was an airplane, then why couldn't Ezekial call it's wings "wings"? It flies, and it has flat things sticking out of it.
No, he saw the "angels"
QUOTE(Mr Ed @ Nov 21 2005, 03:00 PM) [snapback]942592[/snapback]
Exactly, and it adds insult to injury because Elephants 'never forget.'
LMAO!!!!
Ed that was too much. Love your new bottom quote too.
Lapi'che
That is an hilarious sig quote
yes it is! 
I hope someone didn't beat me to this...
There was an Animal Planet special on dragons a few months ago. It was VERY interesting. It proved it was entirely possible for dragons to have existed, and evolved for certain habitats (jungle, water, etc). They even could explain dragons breathing fire.
It seems very plausible that dragons might have existed since practically every early culture had dragon or serpent monsters.
Breathing fire + Flying: Sacs of methane would relieve some of the dragon's weight, allowing it to fly. Also, a dragon could excrete the methane gas into his mouth, where his teeth would crunch against flint and produce flame. Therefore breathing too much fire would make the dragon unable to fly. The dragon would regain methane by digesting food.
It was really a excellent show if you like dragons.
Edit: Oh, in the show the dragons had average animal intelligence, not mythical intelligence
There was an Animal Planet special on dragons a few months ago. It was VERY interesting. It proved it was entirely possible for dragons to have existed, and evolved for certain habitats (jungle, water, etc). They even could explain dragons breathing fire.
It seems very plausible that dragons might have existed since practically every early culture had dragon or serpent monsters.
Breathing fire + Flying: Sacs of methane would relieve some of the dragon's weight, allowing it to fly. Also, a dragon could excrete the methane gas into his mouth, where his teeth would crunch against flint and produce flame. Therefore breathing too much fire would make the dragon unable to fly. The dragon would regain methane by digesting food.
It was really a excellent show if you like dragons.
Edit: Oh, in the show the dragons had average animal intelligence, not mythical intelligence
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