Frogfish,
The writings of the greatest theologians in the catholic church agree with what I am saying, and you can find these things in exactly the same sources the Catholic Church used to rewrite their Bible. We now know that Lucifer was an translation mistake and never existed, just to show that you must use the original Hebrew scriptures instead of ones done by ancient Christian Romans who were unfamiliar with the language..

And it is much more than just the bible. There are dozens of other ancient christian and jewish religious texts besides the Bible, and they all confirm the heavenly dragons, and give us more information about them than just the bible. No to mention all of the ancient depictions of dragons in church mosaic, frescoes, bible covers, etc. You are living a fantasy to think these things are not an intregal part of Judao-Christian theology. The evidence is overwhelming, you can find it in you own Catholic Church, and you can find it on dozens of books and scholarly internet sites. In researching the book, these things have come from both the Jewish and Catholic online encyclopedias.

Before you continue embarrassing yourself showing how little you know about both the Bible and Catholicism, I recommend you do a little more research. But I think you are afraid to, becasue then you will know that everything I have said is true.

in India elephants are Sacred and worshiped by Hindu's.you say u been to India then how can you disrespect them.know this i have Hindu friends who aren't happy about that remark.
do research before stating any facts.

DK, your post makes absolutely no sense. What does the fact that Indians believe elephants are sacred have to do with several ancient eyewitness descriptions of dragons observed in the act of coiling their bodies around them in a probable attempt to fornicate? It has no bearing whatsoever. I am not writing a fictional story of my own invention, I am commenting on ancient accounts about dragons in many world legends as well as the Bible

It is also a fact that ancient armies used elephants in warfare and that many were killed in battle. Maybe theis would upset some Indians, but it is a fact, and it means no disrespect to state it.

I have many Indian friends too, and go there at least once a year, but this doesn't mean I should change or ignore these interesting, ancient accounts about dragon behavior, just becasue some people don't like some of the ancient accounts. My book attempts to explain the reason dragons have been recorded doing thiese thngs.

dc you say elephants were used in war..thats not rape, the word rape hold deeper meaning. and you visit india once a year,you should know so.whats ur believe in dragon to you.others have believes too.try not to step on others toes.

No historian will ever please everyone no matter how unbiased he is. Humans rape animals every day. Animals rape humans in some rare, usually erotic theatrical situations. I have a lizard that has tried to rape an alligator. These are facts. I don't know why elephants, above all other animals should be immune from recording the facts. If I should leave this out of my book just because it offends Indians, then I should leave out everything about the Biblical dragons because it will offend some Christians (like frogfish, evidently). I am sure this book will offend a lot of people who do not like their longheld beliefs challenged by new evidence.

Stop trying to sell your book. This is not Ebay or Amazon.

dc I'm not saying don't voice Ur views, but there is a way to state it better without being insulting to anyone.if you do have friends in india...try telling them dragons raped elephants. you find out .whats dragon and its power to you is the same with elephants to them.

Why shouldnt he try to sell/pormote his book here ? This is said to be one of the biggest sites about things likes this and it has something to do with the topic. So why is that so bad?

Some people will say that it is spamming. I have no problem though, I want to buy the book.

I'll take a copy also DC. I have a lot to learn in regards to the evidence of the exsistence of this ledgendary creature. To emphatically scream and yell, stomp up and down with clenched fist and state they never exsisted is just an example of pure ignorance...IMO that is

No. It is an example of common sense and logic.

no...it is ....no it isn't....yes it is.... no it isn't....yes it is

shanahan, that made no sense, use your brain...

DC, the dragons in indian mythology are all symbolistic, they are not real. And please no more crude and racial comments. Just an observation, you seem to disregard of of the Christian faith except where it says it supports dragons

it's called a joke...use your's

too bad I can't detect sarcasm in typing....duh

What is with all of the dragon stuff lately?

Aren't Dinosaurs cool enough?

yes, they are
ask DC, he started the craze...

no worries mate, but if my fingers are moving you can pretty much count on it....I can't help myself..it's a curse

what if they were creatures from another plane of existance. i know its pretty far out,but so are a whole lot of other things in the Bible.

no problem, my friend is like that too

false prophet, DC's theory makes more sense, no offense..

hm, dragons I think were left over flying dinosaurs I'm sorry if you don't believe but almost every culture had an image of dragon or something very alike and what's the chances of the happening?

200,885,475,214,870,421,244,224,124,875,211,247,842,200,400,544,245,875,455,145,542,742,224,211,441,488,844,284,482,288,288,288,288,288,110,200,281,428,824,284,288,248 multiply by 22222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 to 1?

sorry but I don't think all dinos died at once, and the flying ones lived for long.

been watchin' or readin' HitchHikers Guide have we, but i agree the chances are incredibly remote that dinos survived, or for that matter even the flying ones, however something had to influence the reptilian nature of the dragons, and please don't say snakes, lizards, croc, and alligators please. We don't know for sure what are ancestors really saw back then, so please don't make assumptions, they were likely as smart as we are and there fore would the difference between a rock and a living creature, if not, the our species should not have survived as long we did without some kind of guardian.

Alot of our ancestors thought the sun was a god. So no, they were not as smart as us when it comes to looking at something logically. I think mankind has a great imagination and back then they used it alot more.

I agree Dark Lord that it is ridiculous to think people all over the world came up with the idea of fire sprewing dragons, with other similar behavior and characteristics despite these different cultures had virtually no contac wit one anothert. They would also have had no idea the bones were even reptilian, when you consider that most of the largest animals they knew were mammals. What you said about "guardians" brings up an interesting point. Based on certain legends and religious texts, these dragons are probably responsible for the mysterious disappearance of the Neanderthals that competed with modern man, and possibly dangerous predators that may have threatened humans as a species. When Jesus said the dragon Satan was "lord of this world", it probably referred to the creator's assignment of this creature to oversee the development of mankind, and other Biblical passages allude to this. And true to this concept, dragon legends around the world refer to these creatures controlling the natural world and teaching humans agriculture, domestication of animals, etc.

Give me a break. So the dragons ate the neanderthals. Hmm. Well, just one more reason why your dragon theory sinks in the water.

I think you need a doctor.

I think the dragon myth comes from the findings of dinosaurs fossils by the ancient & medieval people.

Maybe...but i would love to see a big black fire breathing dragon!

Sorry for my english.

I think so too. On the History Channel there were dinosaur bones found in Greece, which could have given rise to mythological monsters.

That was a very good show.

check out the Salt Rock petroglyph, about a third down. sure looks like a chinese dragon!, horns, whiskers, front legs are visible, flowing body, split fish tail... no wings are visible though...
The Kanawha Valley and its Prehistoric People

just looks like an eel to me...

I dont mean to toot my own horn but i still think my post a few pages back was worthy on reading.....(assumes no one read it so no one comment on his simply REMARKABLE insight)

if however you all did read it and just didnt think it was worth discussing and decided to persist in the pointless DC etc debate......come on guys no matter what he aint gonna change his viewpoint so discuss something else


Rogue

(wonders if anyone actually reads his rambles)

Rogue, I've read your post again, and I agree with you in part. Dragons did indeed see there origins in the Mesozoic times, and the specific creature has not yet been discovered and may never be, for reasons you have correctly stated. New and bizarre dinosaurs are discovered every year and heres an example. Although the standard theropod dinosaurs do not look much like dinosaurs, if you took the relatively recently discovered Baryonyx, with its long, crocodile like skull, and very large forearms, then gave it horns, wings, and spines alone its back, it would be universally recognized as the classic, so-called Western dragon.

It is extremely unlikely Dragons could be mere animals. What other animal in the history of mankind has so many attributes of human-like intelligence? What mere animal has such a spiritual connection, positive or negative, even in our modern world? It can be clearly seen just in these discussions.

If dragons were only seen in one place, yes, some legendary monsters in the deepest Congo jungle, or deep isolated lake could be a real animal. But the dragons are reported in virtually every culture, all with uncannilly similar characteristics and human intelligence. If these were normal, mortal, flesh and blood creatures it is impossible to consider no trace of them would have ever been found. In Medieval Britain alone their recorded sightings and occasional attacks (usually stealing livestock and burning building if they are harrassed) are mentioned with such regularity, they seemed to be regarded little more than an occasional "nuisance" like a marauding campground bear today. People gained fame by claiming they have killed these creatures, but without a scrap of evidence. Though in many cases there were many witnesses who had seen the dragons in the first place, and when they finally left an ara, asume a hero may have killed, or at least drove it off. If a single dragon had ever been killed, or even if its body were to be found, it would have been worth a kings ransom, and still preserved today in church or royal treasuries. And proof of is mentioned now. Narwhale horns, for example, were believed to be unicorn horns and were highly treasured artifacts. Parts believed to have come from dragons were also treasured artifacts and preserved in churches often with some connection to a Saint myth. One very famous example is the dragon of Klagenfurt Austria, which in Medieval times was a great crowdbringer to the cathedral there. It wasn't even a dino, but a wooly rhino skull.

But you are right, to dismiss worldwide dragon legends to only bones is very naive'. It has no more logic than if someone simply wrote a good book about "flying saucers", and everyone in the world believed in them simply from the book. Who would believe that? Almost no one would. The reason LIVING dragons were believed in by the entire ancient and medieval worlds is people they were seen by thousands of people, far more probably than the UFO sighting that keep the believers in this field today.

There are many things science still cannot explain, UFOs today, and the even greater belief in dragons in our past. Many top scientists in many fields firmly believe in a spritual realm because they do not believe we are here only by "accident". The mystery of dragons is just one more of so many things that simply cannot be explained away as "our ignorant ancestors just seeing dino bones", by anyone but a person who worships, and has complete FAITH that their God "science" has all the answers.

A slight flaw in your reasoning....

Are there pictures of supposed UFOs?
Are there pictures of supposed dragons?

Is there supposed evidence (physical) of UFOs landing?
Is there ANY physical evidence (other than books of mythology) of ANY dragons?

I can continue with line of questions but are you starting to see your logic flaw?

Good point. I don't believe in either, but at the very least there is some physical evidence of ufo's. Nothing, I mean nothing for dragons.

At least you keep an open mind when it comes to something you do not believe in when it comes to scant evidence of it.

But by that logic how do you explain the massive gaps in the evolution of man?, there are literally millions of years where no remains have been found for the fossil record of humanity. One has to assume that early man was still walking the earth, just the super specfic circumstances to form a fossil, or the simple fact the people were eaten before they could become a fossil(which i feel is most likely overall) means that no evidence remains. Our are you claiming that mankind just stopped...and restarted a million years later?

Rogue(knows religion and faith will be the supposed answer for this question)


My wife is wondering why the only seemingly Pro dragon people here are arguing and as i just explained to her, i was trying to give food for thought to the non believers and a possible scientific reason for there existance but DC didnt take the bait, to add to his arguement and help him(i assume him ) convert the rest of the non believers.

At the end of the day they were so real just cos well they look cool and didnt you see there movie???? matthew sucked but Patrick Bateman rocked

Not related, but...Christian Bale?

You made some really good points and I think that this should be posted again
. This is a nice blaze you got here

What other animal in the history of mankind has so many attributes of human-like intelligence? What mere animal has such a spiritual connection, positive or negative, even in our modern world?
DC^^^


Sorry to get off topic but I think that just about all animals have a greater spiritual connection then humans. Also, ALOT of animals (out-side of humans that is) have/show attributes of "human-like" intelligence.

Not trying to start anything, just holding it down for the other animals out-side of humans .Someone has to so why not me

i am one that believes in ghost, witches, magic. i think that they existed once or one is still existing. maybe you brother is talking about dinosaurs. you need to ask him to prove it to you. by the way, how old is you brother?

There is no need to prove dragons did not exist. There must be proof that they did exist. There is not one shred of physical evidence.

except in the bible, which DC himself doesn't believe in...for the most part

same can be said of ufos, bigfoot, yeti, and many other cryptids, creatures and objects that have been seen for hundreds if not thousands of years.

That and ancient man did not force their environment to yield to them but lived with it. Lived off of the land like many peoples do today, yes primitive but far more intuitive and therefore more intelligent, only in a different form.

You are putting words in my mouth again Frogfish. Bearing false witness is a sin. With obvious concessions to science and common sense, I believe in the Old Testament books which Jesus endorsed as the authentic word of God, with all of its heavenly dragons.

What I have said, and you can hear the same thing in any college level comparitive religion class, is that very little of the New Testament is Jewish in origin, despite the fact that Jesus was Jewish. It is filled with pagan Greek and Persian Zorastrian mythology which Jesus never endorsed as the word of God. And how could a pious Jew endorse such pagan blasphemy?. But understand Frogfish, that many Christians can see beyond the pagan doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, added to, and contaminating Jesus' words, in their attempts to make their new religion popular with pagan Greeks, Romans and Asiatics. These are undisputable facts, as true as the fact that the original Hebrew scriptures state that the highest heavenly creatures are fire-spewing dragons.

You believe in the OT....One of the worlds most violent religions and it's most violent book!

You think it is still OK to stone your unruly child to death? It is a sad sad religion you follow.

Zandore, And don't forget the fire spewing, city burning, sinner-devouring, flying fiery serpents (Seraphim) of that God who boasted he "created evil". One of my favorite Biblical scenes is an early christian church mosaic in which God sits on a throne of living Covering Cherubs (dragons), with one in the act of devouring a sinner.

You have to remember that for centuries there was only one "chosen" people, and the rest of mankind was inconsequential. It was Jesus who sought to change that concept, and bring other peoples "into the fold".

Despite how distastefulness some concepts of the Judao Christian God may be to our modern sensibilities, there is no other religion in which the creation mythos so closely parallels the latest scientific understanding of the earth's creation, and evolution of life on earth (irregardless of what the "fundies" believe.) Was it just a "lucky guess" or divine inspiration? No other religion also offers a better explanation why virtually every world culture believed in virtually the same creatures we call dragons possessed with human speech, and other supernatural abilities. To build a world-wide belief system on a few fossil bones is quite an inadequate, cop-out explanation.

i've heard that the old cultures thought that they existed because of dinosaur fossils and roomers stared from the fossils

that may be true for areas where the fossil beds are on the surface, but what of areas where such beds can't be seen.

Typical self centered Christian comment. There are belief systems far older than Judaic/Judea Christianity and who's to say which one is right (as if one could be)?


Using which Biblical creation account?
If you selectively state the truth you can make it sound (evolution) like it supports creationism....





Tis better to build on a "few fossil bones" (physical evidence) then build a world wide belief system on a few old books of oral lore (imagination).....That is the ultimate "cop-out.



Traveling caravans? Traders? Just to name two ways.


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