Not entirely sure who this was aimed at, but that whole thing on your spelling - it was a joke. You know, you're supposed to laugh...... Err, maybe not. I apologize.



I grew up without religion. I converted to Christianity when I was 19. Does that mean i'm 100x happier? Oh I do hope so, I've always thought of myself as a happy person *dances a jig, and sits down again*

All teh best,

You don't need a christian for that, you're making a good job on your own.


Making it a "duel" between different beliefs adds nothing but bad.


Maybe it's because they're answering the same arguments?


Inferior: of low or inferior quality
Don't you mean superior? If so, what did you just do by calling christianity evil?



Yes, let's keep living in the 15:th century for a while. Let's not mind that the people who lived back then are mostly dead by now.


I'm sure that the people who lived in Russia in the 1920's and 1930's agree with that.


The same goes for a lot of skeptics. What's wrong with keeping an open mind? That only shows that they might not be as brainwashed as you say they are.


And here we go off the scale... Priests are there to give comfort to dying soldiers, not brainwash them.


Very good, I look forward to not see you in such a discussion again.


The existance of an afterlife is independent of the existance of a deity.

I'm not sure what you mean by that Zandore. I don't follow any belief system currently in place if thats what you mean. (Not a christian, Jew, Buhdda, or whatever).



Right on

Not all Americans are using evolution as religion, personally, I think evolution is a load of bull sh**. And the thing you popped about coming back as a monkey... that would be called reincarnation.

thats funny you don't believe in evolution but you probubly believe in a virgin birth and turning water into wine? parting the sea? walking on water? which of those seems the most likely?

From a purely proveable standpoint, each as likely as the other I'd say........

It was once believed that sarcasim was an excuse for the weak minded... this is an opinionated site, thats what these talks are about. A person states an opinion, their own, and it is talked about. I don't recall asking you to believe in what I believe in, or even pretend it is true... but I know one thing that a dieing man once told me, my father.

I asked him why he was happy, how he could praise the Lord after what had happened... "Car wreck"

"I would rather have lived me entire life, believing God is real and die to find out He isn't, than live my entire life believing God is false, and die to find out He is real."

That is what he told me before he died, and I live my life by that... and you don't have to.

That was a personal question and I am sorry for asking it but it struck me kind of strange that you said this:You are not Christian, know nothing of that religion yet you defend it as if it was your own.

That is very admiral of you. My hat is off to you.

Your dad told you that, huh?

Regardless, I couldn't even if I wanted to. I didn't choose to not believe in God. I simply came to the realization one day that I didn't.

iam a moron?... lmao whos the one defending something he has no connection to whatsoever...

also... iam sorry i did mean superior not inferior

if you believe in god thats fine with me i dont give a rats ass, but if you have to try to make someone else believe you your crap.. then we have a poblem , if you say get outta the past thats impossible as everysecond and ever minute you breath you become part of it even as you read this time has already passed...
so its not about forgeting about it but learning from it so that we can see that which we were blinded to in the begining...

investment... so you whole system of belief relys on investment? so in all this your doing this for something in return... so selfish of you i guess you will go to hell.

If god does exist.... and this is my real point of view... I dont believe he exists in Churches i dont believe that he exists in the bible/ i belive he exists in us as a form of conciousness that can make us think right from wrong... and we dont need a priest or pastor tring to interpret it to us. i think all churchs should be terminated and let people believe in itself instead of some idealist way of life because we arnt perfect just like our creator.

"YOU CAN DOOOOOOO IT" - the waterboy

Thank you Zandore. I appreciate that.



I may not be religious, but I have a respect for those who are.

I know for a fact that not all religious people are not unreasonable, stupid, or warmongers, and in fact a lot of them are very tolerant and understanding of others.

Do not thank me for stating something that I see as truth.

But if you are going to defend something I would suggest learning about it first, You may not like what you find. Said with respect to the Christians here.

Did we evolve from the apes, or did we devolve from Adam & Eve?

Nether....We evolved from "PRIMATES".

Zandore

How some people lack a sense of sarcasm...

If God is fake why do we feel our soul.
He may not be the old dude in the cloud with the beard but to dismiss the magic of Mother Nature,love,inner peace ,etc,we feel sometimes is wrong.
God is just the a metaphor for all things powerful,good and unexplained.I dont think we die and thats the end of it,our energy will carry on.
If space is infinate there is an endless result of what will happen to us when we die,it doesnt make sense for everything to just STOP.......

PS-Ive never been to church(only at weddings ) and arent even christened!

actually MK, I think this thread degenerated into a rebuttal of the Christian God and not the "there is no god"theme the original posting was about

The one thing that you always hear religious people saying to people who are atheists is "You have a closed mind and the only way you will learn is by openning up your mind". More often than not it seems as if the religious believers do not want to hear anything that could possibly disprove their belief of god. Since I read these forums I read alot of what many religions think about the subject of god. Although I do not agree with it, it doesn't mean I am going to tell them "No one cares about what you think" like people have posted in this topic. The first post is the posters opinion and to say something like "No one cares about what you think" is extemely disrespectful to someones opinion. The fact is that wong's theory is 99% more probable than all religious beliefs.

More often it is all parties who are closed-minded. Once you have a worldview (any worldview), you are close-minded to any other.

Regards,

Good one, PA, and all too true! Surprised you didn't it when I actually agreed with you?

Oh! How I'm tired of defending my beliefs! Go ahead and believe what you want to but don't shove your believes down everyones throats. Again I wil quote on of my own favorite quotes: If the world of the unexplained could be proven false with science and natural ocurances then life would be boring. It would be like everyone in this world being named Murphy.
I agree with Brother_werewolf like him I'm tired of all this debating and defending. I get that enough from my brother and my sister. I can't watch Syliva Brown on Montel without her snorting and rolling her eyes. And I don't go mouthing of to her.

I wasn't brought up with a religion, but I do believe in God Jesus Christ and the supernatural. I've seen and felt and sensed many things for the past last three or so years and a few before that. And I could tell you some of them that I do rememeber. But I don't have time to waste to tell all of them to you. You have your own opions and I have mine.

I don't believe that your attacking us believers and many who where brought up with religion But I don't want to defend myself again not on this site or in the real world. When it comes to the supernatural and the unexplained and even if it so happens to be a loving higher power: "shut up sit back and listen up."

dude you got that qoute off of some stupid show where the dude dresses up like a baby and talks about rotten chinese food. And the bible says adam & eve were the first people made by god not the only but nevermind i refuse to get angry I respect your opinion and disagree with it at the same time

[quote=TaintedDoughnuts,Aug 5 2005, 02:19 PM]
[quote=Nxt2Hvn,Aug 5 2005, 07:35 AM]Sad.. truly sad.. another fruit cake thinking he can join UM and change what every believes!!!    Just because they said so!
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Of course God is real! I just don't see how anyone can believe that God isn't real. Life would just be so meaningless and empty without God and Jesus in our lives. I pray for you that you will find out that God is real, and accept him into your heart.

Ok, I'm gonna tell you a TRUE story of something that happened to me.

I don't live the perfect "Christian" life. I try to, but I often stumble. Well, about 10 years ago I was really in a bad spot. I had absolutely no direction whatsoever. My entire life was in shambles. I didn't know what I wanted to do, or even why I was here on this Earth. Believe me when I say that thoughts of suicide WERE running rampant in my mind.

All I was looking for was some kind of an escape. The wild thing is that I was looking for an escape from the things I was using to escape. (drugs, alcohol).

I was in BAD. REAL bad.

I had no job. I had no home.

I was mad at EVERYONE in this world. I was mad at God Himself. "How could he let me get to this point?" I asked myself.

Well here is where it gets interesting. All you gotta do is simply talk to the MAN HIMSELF. I was at the point of no options. And I pulled my car over on the road and just broke EVERYTHING down.

I prayed.

And I got an answer.

My older brother of 10 years is a pastor of a Baptist church in mid-Michigan. We hadn't talked very much in years because of the distance between us. But out of the blue, it popped into my head. "Go and see your brother."

That was it. Nothing else. But I heard it LOUD AND CLEAR. I'm not saying I actually heard it with my ears. But I'm saying that I got the message. I don't know how. I just got the message.

So I listened..........................

I got up enough gas money to take the 4 hour trip to my brother's home. And I had called him beforehand asking him if it was okay if I went to see him. Of course he said he'd be elated to see me.

So I put the pedal down and was convinced I was doing the right thing. I knew that I needed to find something spiritual in my life. Yet I was still confused.

Halfway there, driving down highway 12, I started to wonder if I was just wasting my time. And I was asking all kinds of questions about everything, everyone, and why we are here.

Now THIS is the part that turned me.

I said, "I don't know who you are. It's hard to talk to you because I can't see you. maybe I'm just a Doubting Thomas. I don't want to be, but I can't help but be the kind of person that just needs proof sometimes....and I feel completely lost."

It was after I said this that, while still driving, I felt an overwhelming sense of utter peace. Like I had a hand on my shoulder.

And then I asked...out loud....."Who ARE you?"

At that VERY moment, while I was cresting a hill on the highway...there was a HUGE yellow sign on the side of the road. And in big black letters it said, "Who do you say that I am?"

I knew RIGHT then and there that He was listening to me. Because I'd heard that biblical passage before. Jesus asked that very thing to the apostles.

I pulled the car over again, bowed my head, and said the same thing that Peter did. "I believe you are the Christ. The Son of the ever-living God".

I believed it when I said it then. And I believe it when I say it now.

When I got to my brother's house, I decided to get baptized again. But this time as an adult with full awareness of what I was doing.

THAT was the best decision I've ever made in my life. Yes, I still stumble. Yes, I still do things that I shouldn't do. But I know who my Father is. And I try to do what He wants every day of my life.

[quote=Angelblue,Aug 11 2005, 01:41 PM]
[quote=TaintedDoughnuts,Aug 5 2005, 02:19 PM]
[quote=Nxt2Hvn,Aug 5 2005, 07:35 AM]Sad.. truly sad.. another fruit cake thinking he can join UM and change what every believes!!!    Just because they said so!
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Of course God is real! I just don't see how anyone can believe that God isn't real. Life would just be so meaningless and empty without God and Jesus in our lives. I pray for you that you will find out that God is real, and accept him into your heart.
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now that takes the <fruit> cake! relpy to a comment on people making absolute statements with a statement proclaiming your mythology to be THE truth.

please, the abrahamic god as described through the torah, the NT, and the koran.....

i see them about as valid as the science of alchemy.

MedicTJ I enjoyed your story but I don't beleive that any ephiphany would lead to the churches doorsteps, anyone who actually has had an ephiany not a hallucination in history has never come out of it saying I'm a true christian, the path would only lead towards the truth that resides in you , The Chritian beleif structure is built on Fear and control and the definition of God is Unconditional love. Maybe the church interpreted this for you and convinced you that Jesus is your savior Namaste sheri




Angelblue you may beleive in the bible God and thats fine in my opinion as long as its not harmful or invasive to others, The bible god isn't real its a construct of man. Namaste Sehri

Welcome Angelblue to the UM forum.

To you your God is real, But sorry to tell you that there are a fair number of people here that feel (Know) that your God is false or nonexistent. Let me ask you How do you know that he/she (Your God) is in fact real?

The bible god isn't real its a construct of man. Namaste Sehri

Prove to me Sherri God isn't real.

Peace, JuneyGirl

No, the church didn't interpret anything for me. This is a personal experience that happened to me and me alone.

Whether or not you choose to believe me is out of my hands. But trying to suggest something completely different than what actually happened to me is not only ridiculous, it's downright wrong.

I cannot speak for anyone but myself. I can only say that this experience for me was profound. It was not a hallucination in any sense of the word.

And for those that know me here, they know that I am one of THE BIGGEST skeptics on this entire website.

whatever works for you medictj.

i do think though that people's experiences have quite a bit to do with what they read into them. no doubt your previous knowledge of christianity made it the most likely outlet for explanation where a hindu (for example) would not have had such an outcome.

such is the way with the human mind.

Medic I'm reallynot trying to be mean to you but when you understand the nature of the mind you understand that your experiences come to be in large part filtered through our beleiefs so in otherwords God is gonna show up to you in the way you beelieve and understand. I beleive Hyper said the same thing , Religion is big buisness and wishes to stay that way, What keeps the doors open is people as yourself that deny what is actually happening is happening every religious person says the same thing NOt my church not my God that must be the muslims I would suggest reading the bible from beginning to end yourself objectively as if this is any old book I bet you'll be seeking a new definition of god. Namaste sheri

I know this wasn't asked to me, but I hope you don't mind if I interject

I have read the Bible through (multiple times), even before I was Christian. I do not seek a new definition of God, rather I believe you have a flawed view of the Bible God.

For curiosity, what do you mean by "objectively"? You mean with the predisposed belief that the Bible is wrong? I'm afraid when it comes to something such as the Bible, there is no such thing as objectively. There are only degrees of subjectivity.

Regards

Objectively doesn't mean to approach with a predisposed belief, whether that it is correct or oncorrect. Objectively means that one notes the claims that are being made and whether or not the claims are being supported through non-subjective means.

Of course, in the case of the bible, this would be meaningless. This is a book that was written long before the current standards of research were in place, and there is no reason to suspect it would contain all the references we would expect of a modern day book. Regardless, one can still objectively define the different elements within it. In Sheri's case, it would be an analysis of the character of God, which can be done by listing his various traits and actions and then using those to define a personality type for Him.

A reasonable thought. My anthropology teacher thinks pretty much the same thing. Which is why I dropped his class.

“It is common to assume that human progress affects everyone- that even the dullest man, in these bright days, knows more than any man of, say, the Eighteenth Century, and is far more civilized. This assumption is quite erroneous...The great masses of men, even in this inspired republic, are precisely where the mob was at the dawn of history. They are ignorant, they are dishonest, they are cowardly, they are ignoble. They know little if anything that is worth knowing, and there is not the slightest sign of a natural desire among them to increase their knowledge.'' -HL Mencken

Don't forget, you only have five senses to experiance the world with. Our eyes can only see certain wave lengths. Just because you and all the scientists can't see or measure somthing, doesn't mean it's not there. When you die, the veil of physical ignorance that we all have, is lifted, and you see the world how really is.

"As long as they possess a physical body, they can laugh contemptuously at spiritual truth, but once they have lost the body, then the real fun begins, for they immediately become disincarnate minds "up sh** creek without a paddle"."



What IF mankind did not evolve at all, but was created in a most perfect state, fell from grace, and has degenerated through the eons to now? What if we are actually descending downwards into utter ruin and chaos, instead of progressing upwards to some utopia? And what if mankind is so utterly blind to the real truth that it remains unseen or unrecognized?

God is real, the sooner you come to that realization, the better off you will be. If nothing else, do not deny him otherwise he will deny you.

If there is a God....Which one is real?
Who is the one to say which one's are the true Gods?

To deny any God first you have to believe in her/him/it. There are a fair number here in this forum that do not.

God denys you if you deny him?

Maybe you are saying that they will not go to Heaven because God does not know them. But God still loves them.

why would a loving caring creator give a damn if you deny him? shouldn't he take the high ground and say i don't care how much you don't acknowledge me or believe in me I love you and will stand beside you wether you like it or not? like a best friend or parent would do......

Maybe God doesn't want people who don't love him. I mean a parent knows their child loves them. But a person who does not love God why would they care if God wanted them to be in Heaven or not. They already hate him and do not believe in him? So why would they want to be there?

You think that all parents "KNOW" that there children love them? wow you must live in disney land!!!! Children are not obligated to love their parents and some don't it's that simple. But hopefully that parent won't care how much that child hates them or does things against them they will love them none the less and still be there when that child needs them even if the child tells them not to...this is my problem with the god that you believe in 101 you think he has conditions to his love and that is just so wrong.....how can you believe that? how can you follow a god that doesn't offer unconditional love?

My God offers unconditional love but people don't accept it. I do live around DisneyWorld lol. But no matter what a child says "I hate you" He is actually saying"I hate your ways of thinking because I am not geting my way" So no matter how you look at it God does love us unconditionally but to recieve it you must believe in him.

That doesn't sound like unconditional love to me. There's a condition. You don't pay homage to me you burn. That's pretty much it.

I don't know I never looked at it liek that. Probably because I always loved God and I do not care what the conditions are I just want to be with him for all eternity.

The point 101 is there shouldn't be conditions at all...Do you give your child conditions that if she doesn't do this or that you will no longer love her, worry about her and take care of her?

Good point bacca! namaste sheri

It's much easier to believe that there is no God or God is fake. If that's your way of thinking, it allows you a safety to continue living the way that you are. It allows you to sin, and not feel guilty about it. It allows you to be as promiscuous as you see fit with no accountability. Your rant did nothing to sway my beliefs, as I would expect that what I say may not change your beliefs. I respect your opinion, but as a Christian, I can't say that I agree with it. If you would like to talk about our differences sometime, please let me know. Always up for a good discussion.

No one said God doesn't love us but he does want people to follow him. But I would love my daughter no matter what even if she made bad decisions. But according to God's word a child should honor thy mother and father. And if a child is grew up with good morals like this they will not do bad decisions that would dishonor there parents.

I am not into Mencken too much, he is too Hobbean for me, I prefer the musings of Francis Hutcheson (even though he was a Christian clergyman). Mencken (and Hobbes) are too dismal and dark, portraying man as this slime-bucket type creature, whereas Hutcheson see man as basically good and does a pretty good job of proving it.

Since scientists use more than their 5 senses and can measure many many things that we can't see, hear, taste, or perceive, your statement is on rather shaky grounds. Whether or not there is a god really has nothing to do with measurements though. A true loving god would show himself to his beloved creatures, not lurk around in the manner of thief. He would have done this constantly in the past, in the present and would continue to do so in the future. It would not be an ambiguous exposure, one that only certain people could perceive, but instead one that all his creatures, from the lowest life form to mankind, could perceive and love! This is not happening and says much more than the lack of measurements that your god is but a figment, antique or not, of the collective imagination of the Judeo-Christian community.

Or not! It could be that the Christians would be the ones up the creek. There is first of all NO evidence of any sort of deity (as a Deist, I accept the possibility of a deity as equally strong and the possibility of no deity) and then there is the fact that there is NO evidence that the Christian god is the one true god! You guys might end up in the Shinto’s afterlife, with no descendents that know to worship and feed you. That would make for a lotta skinny, hungry, lonely Ancestors!

Or it could be that the Western culture is finally fully awakening from the long nightmare of the domination by the Christian religion. According to Hutcheson, the true God gave man the desire for personal, political, and spiritual freedom.

That is only a supposition of a limited mind (as we all are), unless you have some evidence for that statement that you want to offer at this time.

No harder than comprehending the medieval world that was run by the Christian Religion, pushing an illogical mythology on a large part of humanity in order to control and exploit the average man for the benefit of the nobility and churchmen!

We don’t know that God exists and even if he did, we don’t know which god exists. Mankind had purpose, truth, beauty, justice and love long before the Jews trotted their little War God out on the stage of world history. The only time purpose, truth, beauty, justice and love suffer is when a religion imposed itself forcibly on a people, as shown by the dreath of all of the above from 4th century Rome to 16th century Europe!

Actually if you look at the history, your god seems to be the darkness. By your book of mythology, HE has killed, killed and then killed some more, sometime arbitrarily. He has told his chosen people to perform horrendous atrocities, he has promised them rewards and then punished them, he admits to speaking falsehoods, to inventing evil and to inventing sin. Not what I would attribute to a god of light. Are you sure that YHWH isn’t another name for Satan?

I don’t know who these Satanist you are yammering about, they must really keep a very low profile, but I do know all the evil that your religion has perpetrated over the centuries/millennia and continues to perpetrate today. Maybe those you perceive as Satanists are actually just normal people that are showing the way out of the nightmare created by the fathers of Christianity.

Maybe man evolved, but had an evil force attempted to reduce him back to a bestial stage, with the exceptions of those secular and spiritual leaders, who profited from it. Wait, stop, I just described the Middle Ages again….Seems like since the start of Christianity’s demise (around the Renaissance), mankind has been slowly attempting to climb out of the bestial mould thrust upon him by the Christian Church. Being omnivores and hunters, we will never completely rid ourselves of the perchance for violence, but we can try to control it.

I agree that the Creator is real, however I am not worried that the very limited Bronze Age despot that Jews and Christians worship is real and I am not worried about him denying me….the non-existent has trouble denying anything.

After reading this I would have to say that I believe some of you have a wrong impression of God. The God you speak of, I don't believe that either. My God, the Father in Heaven, who sent His son Jesus Christ to die on a cross, is much different than some of the descriptions I have read here. I have read much of the bible and I think the person that started this topic about God being fake or made up, really has a misconstrued idea of who God is. Wanna know more, just ask. I would love to pray with you.