Whoa may correct me, but the last figures I have seen show a 20% figure for Christians in the UK, Germany, France etc. Europe is no longer a Christian continent!

Man I wonder what they do on Sundays then?

Everything but go to church! LOL...seriously America is slowly heading that way, your religion has fallen from 87% in 1980s to 65% in 2003...

Churches were the emptiest they have ever been last christmas and its not getting any better. They don't draw in that many crowds anymore. Also people generally accept evolution and there is no real debate in in my old catholic schools about evolution, not even with the Religious education teachers.

I can clearly see a difference when it comes to religion in the u.s and in the u.k . I'm going to be honest with you now.. I've never heard anyone say that evolution didn't happen over here where I live. Evem going through two catholic schools. I've only heard if from mostly americans on this forum and fox news.

Football ( soccer ) is more important than religion on a sunday over here.

Mako it is because men do not understand God and never will. And men are prideful and will not believ in what they cannot understand.

I think it's because the idea of religion is evolving in some places. In others it's taking a major backslide. By that I mean in some regions people are turning more to religion. I don't know why that is. I guess I'll have to come up with some theory on that.

Or maybe their eyes have been opened to the truth about organized revealed religions.

I don't think God, or who or whatever is in control (I never said I didn't believe there was something) is meant to be understood. I do know organized religion just doesn't have it right.

Just think (I know you think the Bible is a myth) But if the people were to actually read God's word and not do as the church always said would it be so bad? I mean the Bible is not bad, It is only bad when taken out of context.

But there lies the problem. Anyone and everyone can use it to support whatever weirded out view they want to take. I feel it's a dangerous book in the wrong hands, and unfortunately that has happened too many times.

IMO, it's just a book. Probably one that gets quoted and used as an excuse too much.

101, That may be the reason you thinkyet consider this also many are no longer denying the obvious, The demands that religion attributes to a Diety are egomaniacal, insecure and tryannical , Diety has no needs and the god of religion isn't Godly in any sense of the word, there are those that would choose to beleive in a god that is less than there are many that are not willing to do it anymore, Therre are those that are not denying that religion is not the solutiion but the problem, maybe you cannot see that yet but someday when you are living in a world or your daughter is that is peaceful and tolerant and loving you will understand that the true heros are the ones that dared to stand up for the truth. Namaste sheri

I happen to disagree but that is expected. But as a Christian our God is not evil or mean. But of love and POWER. That is what a lot of people mistake the OT God(same God) as evil but is really just powerful. Who wants a God that is on the same level as them? I do not understand how someone could look up and admire a person who is the same as them

Thanks for pointing the truth out about how people are accepting evolution more everyday and the emptiness in churches..For that is the reason God is coming back. Just another sign right there that the end times are coming when the christian beleivers are loosing they're faith.

We don't need the bible at all to function from this point on.

Do you think a person can have good morals without believing in god. Of course !

I don't need the bible to tell me how to help people, I do that not because the bible says but because I feel its the right thing to do.

Do believers need a bible to tell them before they should help people? Would they help without the word from god?

Who has the moral highground?

The person that willingly helps people at his or own accord or someone that has to be told by a bible first?

To us Christian beleivers, our God has been here even before beggining of time and since Adam and Eve was put here on earth. Christianity and faith in our religion is not organized in our beleifs. It's easy to call it organized like it was made up if you don't follow it. That's just as easy as me saying your Deist God or whatever is organized. When was the religion made??? For I think anyone can say this much that the Christian religion has been here always.

Whoa, a person is not silly or anything. It is common sense to aid a person in need. A Bible is just a parables and stuff to help us understand why things may be wrong. Even if they do not seem wrong. Even if a person doesn't believe in the Bible God they can always read it for a different perspective.

That is where freewill to do things falls in. Bible is not here to make us do anything. It's a teacher to us like a teacher to a classroom. A child can sit and put 4 sticks together and take 2 away and say that equals 2. He learnt that on his own but he still needs a teacher to help him on his path to a education. Christians don't need a bible to know that murder and theft is a sin. But we need the bible to guide us to the path of righteousness.

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. "

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purge from Israel. "

oh yeah... follow gods words.... Sure lmao

"If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death
"
"Whoever sacrifices to any God, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed"


Sounds like words a person like saddam would use.

and theres more

That is just a few scrips you can use to say that God is a meanie head. But would you want to have your wife sleep with the neighbor> no. It was just a showing that adultry is bad and should not be done. Who would have commited an act such as that if they were going to be killed.

Starkalite, What you are witnessing is a growth in conciousness movement towards tht which is the truth the gloom and doom is simply religions attempt to keep you afraid and a member, but by all means you have the right to believe as you choose, if it works for you good for you Namaste sheri

Well we have a clash of ideas here 101 basically we clash over individual freedom and personal restriction, between human rights and So called Gods Laws. Right??? REally there is no clash because Love (unconditional) which is another definition of God is freedom in its essence , personal liberty, being equal are offshoots of that essence. Reliogn does not recognize basic human rights
and freedoms, it considers women less than Gay to be wrong and you are less than that which has created you, I would ask how does one admire that which says you are unworthy and less that and would punish you for not believing, in him in just the right way. Maybe thats a better questin that why would I iaspire to be the most loving and kind human I can be the most caring and peaceful because I choose to believe in only unconditional loving divine essence???Namaste Sheri

You pick and choose the good parts and leave the bad parts out.

Saddam was a dictator and so is the people that wrote the bibles. That bible is dictating what should happen.

Whoa I read all of the Bible and you do not just pick and choose. You read and try to understand.


Sherri, I don't think a person is born gay but that is a different subject. If God were to make men or women homosexual then why would it be wrong in his book. It only makes sense that two of the same sex cannot make babies. So why would they need to be together other then love. But why can't a person love a man if a woman and woman if a man? The reason people are gay is because they watch these movies with scenes of homosexuality and stuff. Society has made it acceptable so people think it is acceptable. I don't think it is what I would do-marry a woman. But if they want to it is alright I guess. This is my opinion.

But Love is what God is no matter what belief you have.

"I don't think a person is born gay"

LoL... I bet that soon or even now scientists can identify whether a person is more likely to be Homosexual from their genes. Certain factors may come into play like the environment while growing up and expression of them genes.

I understand its very difficult for you to understand being gay, but the church has no claim to authority on Being gay or not, You cannot watch someone homosexual and be gay, try it and you'll have your answer, You have to belive what you want 101 I can't do anything about that but the question would be is is it ever justifiable to treat another person of God as a mistake ??? Do you really beleive this about God???If so How can you say God is LOve ?? What is love to you 101???

Kate, To us Deists, the Creator has been here long before the beginning of time. He created space, time, the universe and all of its wonders, that is why we call him the Creator. Christianity is an organized revealed religion. Your religion is organized into congregations, conferences, bishoprics, etc; this is why it is called organized. Deism has no congregations, no church buildings or no larger groupings; therefore we are not an organized religion. Christianity is a revealed religion, in that you believe your God revealed himself to a group of people several thousand years ago. The Creator has never revealed himself to any adherent of Deism, we only know of him through observation of his creation. We are therefore not a revealed religion. Christianity came into being around 2000 years ago, based on Judaism which finally came into being around 560 BCE, making Christianity 2000 years old and Judaism 2500-2600 years old. Neither has been around always, probably neither will make it through the next 100 years. You seriously need to understand what religious terms mean before you attempt to refute a statement.

Whoa, it's not that they pick and choose, it is that they ignore that which is repugnant to them and does not meet what they think their religion is all about.

Girl, I have watched numerous porno movies with lesibian scenes and turned on by them. Also a person maybe gay because of masterbation and the love of their own bodies. They may like the way that the same sex looks and feels because they like the way they feel. (my theory) Have you ever really asked why a person is gay?

I do not think people are mistakes if so then would a handicapped ,deaf,mute,blind,retarded person be mistakes.

God does not want same sex engaging together because tehy cannot make babie on their own.

OFF TOPIC:

Recently, I had read that scientists, conducting an olfactory (scent) test, discovered that homosexual males respond physically to certain scents in the same manner as genetic females. The test involved sensors attached to the skull of the subjects to monitor brain activity in response to certain smells. The researchers discovered that certain parts of female and homosexual male brains responded in a similar fashion when exposed to the same smells. Heterosexual male brains did not.

I will have to dig up the info, and a site to confirm this. Just thought it appropriate to the quoted statement.




good journey

101 So you are uncomfortable because a Gay person cannot concieve??? Okay thats your issue but if a religon is justifying its treatment of others based on wht they have decide are Gods laws which they cannot be if we go back to God is Love and only love it wouldn't be god who has the problem but the writters of what they say God wants . It doesn't hold up for me, but thas okay to, I want to be known as a person who loves all no matter what I want to be known as a person that would take a stand for those that are pesecuted so I'm very choosy about the labels i attach to myself I would never want to be mistaken for an intolerant judgemental vengeful person. But thats me , also because of experience the truth I have found inside has guided me down the path oi unconditonal love, Yes 101 I have asked many gay people why they are Gay not one has said because they watched a gay porn, they say the same thing I was born this way, I would beleive them over the bible the bible has shown what its beelifs have caused they have been the biggest promoter of hatred towards then any other group i would not want to be associated with that. Namaste sheri

Read the same report, but like you, can't remember where.

The whole issue of being "Gay" is a religious one.
If it were not for religion would this be an issue?
For me ....who cares?
I live my life ....you live yours.
Since when is it called for that anyone can tell me how to live my life?
How many pedophiles are out there because "society" has deemed being gay immoral and so they go underground?
How many people have married knowing that they are Gay to live the life of a lie, because society tells them that who they are is wrong?
We each have our own issues and lessons to learn here, and it is too bad that we all judge another, when the only judge should be "the one'

Blessings

It sucks getting old, right partner?

the worst part is trying to get everything working properly each morning. Oh, the aches, pains, and weakness! Sucks is a mild word!

same old same old...i read the first few pages(i used to love these discussions )but can't read much more as i can practically predict whats going to be said and by who. i'll just say my 2 cents and then be on my way

it seems both sides have misconseptions of each other. believers. there are many different types of belivers, yet they're always grouped together by non-believers as fools who believe with no real reason, 'blind faith' and so on, and who 'just won't listen to sense'. i agree, to a certain extent. there are individuals who fall under that category, many infact. but, what can be done about it? that's just the way they are. if they're going to one day 'see sense' and question what they're told, they will. if not, they won't. these individuals are close minded. they're not open to any other possibilities. but there is a huge number of close minded atheists aswell, neither are they open to other possibilities. an open minded individual can either be a believer or non-beliver, it all depends on which they personally find to be more likely, or which one 'rings true' for them. when there is neither evidence for or against a concept, it's left open for your interpretation and you're free to to come to your own conclusion, by which ever means suit you. some don't take this option, rather, they believe what they're told.

i have no problem with athesists. i was one. could still be, or might soon be, or maybe will be in the far future, i don't know, anythings possible, in my opinion. i do however have a problem with individuals who look down on others simply because they have come to a different conclusion, and group all believers as 'foolish'. i have considered the possibility of god existing, and the possibility of him not, and i personally think it is more probable that he does. i do not need him to exist to feel better or safer in this world, i just think its more probable he does than doesn't. so you've come to a different conclusion? very well, i'm not bothered, so neither should you be.

i think i am a reasonable believer, i have no problem with people challenging my beliefs, i do so myself. and ofcourse they are unreasonable believers, just as there are reasonable and unreasonable unbelievers. its all down to the individual. some believe for certain reasons, some don't believe for whatever reasons. both are reasonable conclusions, as there is neither proof or evidence supporting either conclusion. its all good, aslong as you keep it personal..that means not forcing your belief down others throats, or shouting the oods at them for not agreeing with you. you can't unconvince the convinced. and its very seldom that you'll find an open-minded individual who'll hear you out and trully take in consideration your opinions. the fact is, neither can say they're the right one, coz neither can prove so, so why should they believe you? or you them? i believe you should always be open to consider, what's the worst that could happen?

I seen something on tv about this and read up on it. But I can't remember what channel or where I read it....

Well, this isn't what I was referring to, but:

E&S Interdisciplinary topic:
GENDER

SEXUAL DETERMINISM: Target Paper: LeVay, S 1991 Science, 30 August.
Certain neural structures apparently differ in homosexual and heterosexual men. There are differences in response to injections of estrogen (seen in German and SUNY studies in 1984) and Dutch researchers observed in 1990 that the suprachiasmatic nucleus of the brain was larger in homosexual than heterosexual men. Most recently, Simon LeVay compared 41 autopsied brains and discovered a difference between homosexual and heterosexual men in the interstitial nucleus 3 of the anterior hypothalamus.
Papers such as this renew, if not reinvigorate dialogue about biological determinism of human behavioral traits versus free choice. The report generated editorials and many responses from readers and ripples throughout the communities of scientists, health care professionals, and other interested groups. See (for example) The article by Bailey and Pillard in the New York Times: "Are Some People Born Gay?" (17 December 1991)

notes.utk.edu/bio/unistudy.nsf/

Hmmm, looks like Gays may actually be born that way! How will the Theists explain that away?

not all theists would explain that away. funny isn't it? i can believe in god and agree with scientists at the same time.

i believe people are born gay. i've never read the bible, and would never take it too seriously. if the bible said gay people were bad, i'd hardly believe so. in my opinion the bible is a book, written by men, and so it is corrupted to a certain point, as are all things made by man.

and yet!!!!!i still believe in god!!!! it's crazy, isn't it!!


maybe you should have said 'How will the extremist Theists that take the Bible literally explain that away?' ??

I think you are confusing theists and deists LIV.

As far as I am concerned, the three Abrahamic religions are nothing but cop-outs pure and simple. The Jews believed that they could pile up their sins on a scapegoat, and when released into the desert, the scapegoat died, taking their sins with it. Muslims seem to think, from what the clerics say, that if it happened, then Allah must have thought it was OK, since Allah allowed it to happen. The Christians have it both ways . . . Satan causes them to sin, and when they do so, they can get off the hook by praying and repenting their sins . . . and then go out and commit them anew. Cop-outs from responsibility all. If I, the atheist, does wrong, I have only myself to blame. There is no mystic entity which causes me to do wrong, only myself. Moreover, there is no mystic entity I can appeal to for forgiveness . . . I have to live with what I do. What is called "sin" in these religions is for the most part what other cultures recognized as unacceptable social behavior, and passed laws against. So, you religious, why could you think that a god can make everything better after you "sin"? What happens to the wreckage you leave behind when you "sin" or do others wrong? Does your God clean up after you too, and make the victims of your "sins" all better? Not in a pigs eye! Take a simple example: I abstained from promiscuity not only as a teenager, but as an adult because I couldn't imagine being the father of a child I wouldn't be involved in nurturing and rearing, in equal partnership with the child's mother. I either wouldn't or couldn't (as a married adult) do so unless I married the woman I made pregnant, and I wasn't about to get married as a teenager, and wouldn't have wanted to marry the women I could have been promiscuous with. So I abstained from casual sex. Not because I might be punished, but because it didn't fit my personal ethics standards I set for myself. At the same time Christians I knew were having having casual sex, and on rare occasions the girls did get pregnant, and either were sent off to have the baby in secret, which was then adopted out, to never know any nurture from the baby's natural parents, or the baby was aborted, which most often had significant and negative psychological effects on the girl who had been pregnant. Girls who had these babies and had the guts to keep them and take care of them (mostly by themselves, I might add), ended up in severe poverty. When they managed to get the father to marry them, the marriage was typically pretty much a sham, and they and their baby were soon abandoned. That is the wreckage I am talking about that is really the "wages of sin", the devastation of the innocent. Certainly, the single mothers had a part in it, but the babies which resulted didn't. But the Christians I knew who did this sort of thing felt that they were absolved . . . they blamed Satan for the temptation, and their God forgave them. As to what the consequences were to their victims, that was society's problem, not theirs. When your church leaders rise up and insist on adequate compensation for the victims of sinners before absolution of sins is given, and when you and your church leaders give up on the silly notion that "the Devil made me do it", and hold their followers responsible for their actions, I might listen to what you have to say. Of course, the church leaders would also have to do the same with themselves, so it is never going to happen, is it?

Source

So in the end one could argue that you are just as much an irrational thinker as Christians. Your belief of a creator is based soley on your personal observations using all your five senses, and that's it. Some could say you just have an overactive imagination, cuckoo for coco puffs.



Don't make the assumption that because I believe in Jesus, that the only proof I have is what's written in the bible. The main reason I believe in the Bible and Jesus, is primarily from the near death experiances. People were allowed to ask questions and recieve the answer to anything they could think of. One person asked if the bible was true, and the answer was of course yes. Some asked about Jesus, and again the answer is yes, he did exist as a person on earth, was crusified, and now is sort of the gate keeper for the afterlife. You must go through him to get to heaven.

If I had no knowledge of the near death experiance, I would not be a strong believer in God or Christianity. Never liked going to church much. I would assume everything science said including God probably didn't exist to be true. I haveen't seen God, or your creator. As far as I'm concerned we are all at different levels of spiritual understanding. It is not good for me to insult anothers belief, but we can still debate.

Its not good for any of us to insult anothers beliefs. Not because of 'political correctness', but rather because each of has to travel the path we've chosen. To me, one path is as good as another.



good journey

scooby so this near death experience did you speak to god and jesus? or did you experience something that you can not explain and give credit to god and jesus because it's the easiest thing to do to try and give yourself answers? I'm not trying to be funny i'd really like to know why you would automatically say i had a near death experience so there must be a god and a jesus....did you have no previous knowledge of them? could your mind have put them in because that's who it thought should be there? if you did see jesus did he look like he does in most churches? or did he look completely different?

First of all, how would I communicate with the microscopic fauna and flora in my digestive track? They exist because they were written into my dna; it wasn't like I suddenly spoke in a thunderous voice and said: "LET THERE BE MICROSCOPIC FAUNA AND FLORA IN MY DIGESTIVE TRACK!" I'm not the creator of them like God is the creator of us. So comparing that to God and his creations isn't a good analogy. And I obviously didn't create any mice......so comparing the connection of one of God's creations to another in an attempt to show why God wouldn't communicate with his creations doesn't make any sense at all in my opinion.

Secondly, you continue to refer to acts done in God's name. But that wasn't God that did those things, it was men. Like I already stated before God gives us free will. Which is why he doesn't stop every murderer from committing their crimes....if he did there would be no reason to give us the commandment that forbids it because we wouldn't be able to commit it. Just because people proclaim to be servants of God and work in his name doesn't make it so. If your going to generalize what a few men have done who proclaimed to do it in God's name........then you would have to generalize EVERY group religious or otherwise by what a few people have done that claim to belong to and up hold that group's ideals. That would mean everyone of the Islamic faith believes as the terrorists do; that every American agrees on the War in Iraq; that every Democrat is an adulterous because one leading figure was; or that every protestor advocates violence just because one rally turned to violence. In that way I would have to say your way of thinking is flawed. But I can see where you'd get the idea that God may be blood thirsty because of the actions of some men who claim to do what they do in his name. But the fact is, those actions were the actions of men, not God. Don't confuse the two.

Third, you say there is no evidence of Jesus..........but the fact that there are millions of people all around the world that follow his teachings would seem to suggest that somebody by the name of Jesus presented those teachings in the first place. People don't just start proclaiming someone is the son of God for no reason. Look, the Bible talks about all the places Jesus went......if he didn't exist (when the religion first started) people from those areas would be going around telling everyone that it was a fraud, that no one called Jesus ever came to their city.....but no one did that. You yourself gave the numbers of Christians during the Roman Empire, the odds seemed pretty stacked against Christians didn't they? It seems to me if the guy didn't exist the Romans could have extinguished the Christian religion pretty quickly, but they didn't. You also say even if he did exist there's no proof he was any different from any other magician or magical rabbi.... I say to you, show me anyone that can walk on water, feed thousands of people with only a few loafs of bread and one or two fish, bring the dead back to life, heal the sick (not just the blind and deaf and leapers; but someone who could also turn mentally disabled people whole), calm the sea, and then resurrect 3 days after his death.....and then if you find someone else who fits that description you might have ground for an argument against the authenticity of Christ. But until that time I'm sorry to say you don't.

As I said before, I will pray you one day recognize that the Lord is exactly who he is said to be: The son of God, the Messiah, The Alpha and Omega, The King of Kings, and Your Lord and Savior if you choose to accept him.

Thank you. And I pray that one day you will one day recognize the fact that the celestial in in YOU and YOU are in the celestial. And that you are in charge of your life, your destiny, and your afterlife.


good journey

Bingo!

Not true, not if the Christians truly have an understanding of the Gospel. It is preached that the devil can't make anyone do anything and that the blame for sin is yours alone. It is preached that the devil may try to tempt you and put ideas in your head if he thinks your vulnerable, but it is you who have the power over satan and only you can choose to sin, the devil can't make you do anything.

To be Christian is to literally admit you are a sinner, which everyone is. No matter how hard anyone tries to keep from sinning, they can't help but think or feel something in their heart that might be a sin from time to time. Jesus spoke that lusting after a married woman is the same thing as actually sleeping with her, which is why even if you don't physically sin most people do sin in their heart every once and a while no matter how hard they try not to. Jesus died for our sins so we wouldn't have to, one must truly accept him as their savior and must really mean what they say or think when they repent, other wise you can ask for forgiveness from dusk till dawn, but if you don't truly believe and mean it, it means nothing.

I just thought I would shed some light on that point of view....

Execellent JMPD1 You are so correct we all have to walk our own paths and as I walk mine I do feel its as good as anyon else's Well said!!!!

Because religion is like a virus, it infects people no matter what age they are.

But do we have a body of jeusus? NO
Do we have eye witnesses accounts? NO
The bible was written way afterjesus had died YES
Did some of the people live where jesus lived? NO!

Just because a book says something does not make it so. You have to look at the time when these kinds of myths were born. Very different world today. If a person starting spreading the word that jesus was in the middle east today we could easily see evidence because of communication and travel capabilities. That wasn't so then so you could stage events that never happend or alter the stories without a problem.

You can show us the book but where is the evidence!?!?! A million people praying in churches is NOT evidence. It's just a fictional BOOK!

The simple truth is that there is absaloutly no reason to start believing in god at this time.

Analyze all the worlds religions, they all think theres is correct, somehow god was speaking to usama and w g bush at the same time and he happend to be on both sides.

First of all there is no evidence for one god let alone 2 gods! I was watching this show and this christian guy on C4 looked at the bible and started to research it a lot. He found that the so called eye witnesses never even grew up where jesus lived. He also found many other problems with the bible. I'll find the a link.

If man couldn't use language or write a book then we can get somewhere. but most of us can ! Even if the book was protected by a shield or had some majical capabilities then that would be convincing. but there is nothing special about the bible other than its real old piece of fiction at this point.

Again, no reason to start believing in god. I see it as delusional, ignorant (some people) and denial. Also in most cases a lack of logical reasoning.

The Bible has no more credibility than lord of the rings for being fact.

Just an observation with my pitiful 5 senses, but it could more easily be said for those that take the unsubstantiated word (at least Deists study the real universe with our 5 senses and all the different sensors and instruments we have learned to make over the centuries in spite of the attempts of Christians to stop us) of a book written by Late Bronze Age barbarians that have been dead for 2600 years! As for NDEs, I can not see that they prove the truth of Christianity. Too many non-Christians have had them and report no meeting with Christ or no mention of him.


Actually, the answer is no, Archaeologists and historians can find no evidence to support the existence of the worship of YHWH (Jehovah) as the only god prior to 560 BCE. There is no evidence of Abraham, Issaac, or any of that ilk, no evidence of any of the Judges, none for Samuel or Saul, no evidence (none at all) of David or Solomon. Only with the establishment of the kingdom of Israel in the late 900s, early 800s BCE (nearly 200 years after the supposed United Kingdom) is there any archaeological evidence of the Hebrew people at all. It wasn’t until after the return from exile that there is any indication of monotheism being practiced by the Hebrew peoples (as I stated before). There is no contemporary secular (or religious) evidence of a historical Jesus. The gospels were not written until well over 3 generations after the supposed fact and by people without even eye witnesses to interrogate. Even though much was written during that period by the myriad of historians, essayist and political writers about other “magicians” who performed many of the same miracles as Jesus was supposed to have! Yet not one peep about a man that supposedly walked on water (a trick that is still being performed by Fakirs today), raised the dead (Apollonius did the same thing several times) or healing the sick (just like the faith healers today, a common occurrence back then).
There is no record of his being crucified and only one mention (very contested and around a century later) by any Roman historian. Otherwise, we can continue debating.