Also, if Morals are enough, then we don't even need laws, might as well toss those out the window too =D

You have a valid point to a degree, but laws are really for those individuals that have no morals, for whatever reason....probably a very small percentage of the population.

Laws are needed because not all people have the same morals. I may think killing someone if they kill a loved one is ok, you may not. So they just put out the law that if you murder you go to prison.

It's not exactly for the people with NO morals. Laws keep us in line(Even God's laws for the christians).




I always thought Atheist claimed the oposite. I_I

I don't really have any morals, I just follow two laws:
You get what you give, and do what you want, so long as it doesn't hurt anybody.

Murder was only an example. Like I said, if someone is only being guided by someone else, and if it werent for them, would do immoral acts, then they do have less morals.



I dont follow America's laws.



Exactly my point. Religion truely has nothing with morality (on an individual scale, it could, but religion as it is doesnt) yet he equated the lack of religion with immorality, therefor equating religion with morality.

[b]OOKK someone has something to say about my past . If you read my last post you would know that I dont do those things because I wouldnt want other people to do that to me. Also to address were I got not stealing from. When I was a little boy (most likely a baby but I cant really think back that far.) my mom told me " You shouldnt steal from others because you wouldnt want someone to steal from you. Treat others the way you would want to be treated. " so I guess thats were I got my way of life from in some aspect. But I had never been pressured to do this by anyone, I just dont like/enjoy/want to or am interested in doing stuff like stealling/ hurting others ect. I have never had to read a book to scare me into doing this because I just dont want to .

I keep myself in check because im my own man and am very capable of controlling myself. I have no need to think a big hand is going to come down and send me to hell if I do bad things.

Way do I have to worship anything??? Way do I have to be like you???

if i may add that religious people feel psychologically safer and healthier because they say that a higher power keeps them that way. in reality, it is thier brain that is working psyhchologically which keeps them safer and healthier. healthier also means morals too.

The laws of whereever you live. And if you don't, why the hell aren't you in prison yet XD.

And what's an imorral act to you, may not be to someone else. People have differen't morals in case you didn't know.


The book doesn't scare us into not doing things. It agrees with what we already knew before reading the book. I knew not to steal or be rude to others even before I read the bible. You're saying that most christians had NO morals and no type of guidance before reading the bible? O_o....... Close minded cough cough.

Zero, the bible isn't about morallity that is why I asked if you understood Morals Zero, The bible makes moral judgements based on what they understand of what God wants , so you see Morals could not be mandated because as its obvious around here Peoples ideas of what God wants change from post to post. Take gays for example a moral has been mandated on what religon thinks God's preferences are as if God cares what you do in your bedroom Religon is the only sytem saying God does they have decided not god but them that god deems this un natural behavior. The bible is nothing more than a book of laws based on what Man thinks God wants, if you were to actually ask what God wanted you would find that you are thinking very similar to the Non bleivers but you haven't asked yourself anything you haven't questioned, you only ask the questions that religion has the answer for, Thats not questioning thats mimicing. namste Sheri

ya ya.. god didnt fax the bible to earth lol.. he didnt write it. man did.. AND altered it over time too!

My moral on gay people: They're kool people(Gay guys are fun to hang around for some reason) but I'm not kool with being gay myself and wouldn't care for my children to be gay.

My knowledge on what God thinks about it: It's wrong to be gay.


As you can see, the bible did no change my morals, Sherri. But thanks for the post ^^

God didn't deam it unatural. It IS unatural. Sex is to reproduce and keep the human race going(Although I like to use it for pleasure, hehe) and you can't do that with a man and a man. That's a whole nother subject let's not get back on the gay subject again.


I had morals before I read the bible, then after I read it, my morals remained the same.

And you can't act like your morals come from ONLY you and that nothing or no one else affected your moral beleifs. And sense something has bound to have altered your moral beleifs, why down on some people who DO get some morals from a book? Isn't that close minded? Saying bad things about people with different beleifs/morals than you?

the bible has always been used by clergy men as a book to teach lessons, just like using cinderella to teach about being fair and nice. it is annoying when they seemingly do this over and over again but don't admitt to it.

What's wrong when giving young kids examples when showing them what's "bad"?

c what i mean?

another example

Zero the gay thing was an example of Morality being mandated, Humour me Zero , In the event Religion was in need of being trans formed could you see any way this would need to be done or are you satisfied with tthe job Religon has done so far??? Besides blind faith and blind trust why do you beleive the bible to be infallable ?? Namaste Sheri

Example of what? O_o.......... I'm not using the bible to teach anyone anything. O_o.....

The only thing I've been trying to get through was THE BIBLE DOES NOT ALTER MY PERSONAL MORALS WHAT SO EVER. I follow God's laws. Just like I follow America's laws. America's laws do not alter my morals just because one law is to not steal. I already know stealing is wrong, I don't need a law or a bible to tell me, but I still follow God's laws because I respect him.

wrong post

What are morals to you if i didn't know how would you explain it to me without what it isn't?? namaste sheri

I've already said that ealier. Are you sure you read my posts? =(...


I'll be nice and say it again. It's basically personal beleifs on what's wrong and what's right.

It sure is easier to believe God is made up. That way, we don't have any moral responsibility. We can do what ever we want. But really, if God was REALLY made up, then why wouldn't everyone just do whatever they want? Why does an Athiest still abide by a code of moral conduct? If the only thing in life is myself and my own pleasure, then why don't I step on every single toe I possibly can to get it?


I don't believe the pretext that it is easier to believe one thing than another, in general. Through years of thought and study I believe that there is a power behind the many relationships in nature beyond our daily understanding. The idea, however, of a God who would design a universe by these laws only to transcend them as well as create us only to stand in judgement of his own creation is ridiculous. I am so totally in agreement with Einstein on this that it isn't even funny.


Ah, that's why the people in power allowed religion to exist. Infact, there has never been any society which has not allowed any form of worship whatsoever.

wrong, it is officially against the policy of the Chinese government to have a religious belief. Due to widespread Buddhist beliefs and temples though, this is obviously not seriously enforced but more likely used against dissidents.


You speak as if Chritianity is the only religion.

So do you. Personally I follow the tenants of Buddhism, but believe that both Christianity and Buddhism are positive and useful when followed in a thinking, evolving, evaluating kind of way.

Everyone would be a better person if they thought they would go to heaven for it.[/i]

Sorry dude, gotta say that this is not a well thought out opinion. Look around you, I assume you are American. Most people in the US are Christians and look at the things that are being done in their name around the world, not to mention by their own companies and in thier own communities. Lots of room for those who believe in heavenly rewards to improve yet they still don't.

Interestingly enough, Rabinnical Priests have been copying the scriptures for over 4000 years letter for letter.

So you use a Hebrew text as your Bible? Cool! Or do you not realize it was not the Hebrew nation who created the King James version?


As God as my witness, I have actually witnessed what could only be described as an Angel. I was not asleep, I was not on drugs, and I was not alone. I was in my parents room, kneeling on top of my sleeping bag. I felt a touch on my back from hands. I turned around and saw a being which shone like the sun, in a pure white light, though it cast no light in the room I was in. It had visable robes around it. I couldn't make out facial features, though it did have a head, and over all was shaped like a human. The light, though extremely bright, did not hurt my eyes. It was kneeling at the foot of my sleeping bag. I stared at it for at least 20 seconds trying to figure out what I was seeing. Strangely enough, as a young person plagued with nightmares, I felt no fear whatsoever at what I saw. Infact, the lack of fear I felt was perhaps the stangest thing of the entire experience. I turned aside to grab my mother and tell her what I was seeing, and in that instant, this "being" was gone. This experience was as real as me sitting here typing this post. And how am I meant to explain this? Am I meant to lie to myself and say I didn't see it? Should I tell myself I was dreaming? Should I tell myself I was hallucinating? All I know is that at a young age, I witnessed a being that I cannot explain by any conventional means. Infact, if you can provide evidence of some widely known phenomena of this sort that I am unaware of, please do so. I'll hear you out. But here's how I put it together:

I felt physical touch.

I saw a being which had the body of a human, but glowed with an unexplainable light.

I felt no fear whatsoever.

It eventually vanished.

If you can think of a better explination than "It was an Angel", I'd be willing to hear you out.

Wow, I can't think of anything to say that wouldn't be conjecture, speculation, or rude.


I really hope you do not see my post here as any sort of an attack. I will not preach to you. I will however, discuss the subject/topic at hand with you. I'm sorry if Christians have attacked you before regarding this sort of thing. But you know, the Muslims have been getting a bad rap for suicide boimbings lately. But If you go to a mosque and talk to one, you'll find nothing but peace in them. Of course, all that we ever hear about are the extremists.....kinda like Christianity eh? I guess a few bad apples do spoil the bunch. And that's a very sad thing that we all can't just leave our prejudices behind. But I want you to know I do not wish to attack you in any way. All I want to do is to provide explinations or ideas that you may habe not considered, and of course, tell my side of things, and the way I see it.

For me, the bad taste in my mouth came not from the extremists (who seem to be more and more frequently found, a Senator recently said the hurricanes and earthquakes are God's punishment to the wicked) but the majority of Christian believers. Why all the superstition, and why such insistance that all others believe as they do or face imprisonment, or wars, or pain of death? I lived in America for most of my life, and my questions were not well recieved by Christians. I was not aggressive, but only wanted honest answers to questions. This is bordering on changing the subject so I'll go post the rest somewhere more appropriate.

Are you talking to yourself or quoting people? XD...


And it being an angel is a possibility so saying he needs to come up with a new explaination is kind of close minded.

That according to your God's laws is unnatural.
Biblically thinking you are just as "evil" and as "unnatural" as homosexuals!!!

zero where do you find these......."God's laws"?
An honest answer if you may.

I was told different. That the union between men and women is holy. I will find proof. Kay?

There is no other passage in the Old Testament or New Testament that adequately convinces us that masturbation is a sexual sin in itself. However, if we consider the mind concept that has been raised by Jesus in Matthew 5:27-28 then if we masturbate with thoughts of others (men or women) then we are sinning sexually. Consider Paul's words to us in 1 Corinthians 6:12. He says that "Everything is permissable, but not all things are beneficial " and his words to us in Galatians 5:22-23 concerning self-control" "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace....self-control." versus lust in Colossians 3:5. "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. "

sex and the Bible

This is where I found this. It was about masterbnation and other sexual pleasures we do.

Per Christian belief (Majority) sex outside of said union is a sin.
You break one commandment you break them all.


zero mast.....
I don't think that is what he meant!

Here is what you missed:
"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral" (Hebrews 13:4, NIV).

"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge" (Hebrews 13:4, KJV).


Some more for you:

Source


I am still laughing on that one....poor zero!

Hey I am just helping a bro out. You gotta do what you gotta do if you ain't married and a Christian.

wait till he sees what and how you helped him.....He's just a 17 year old kid!


OH man the poor guy!

Ewww I didn't realize he was so young. He will die. and get totally pissed at me. Oh well.

Ok! I'm new here but whatever... thought I'd reply to Insight anyway, even though his post is like ages old.
First of all, Rene Descartes said "I think therefore I am", not Shakespeare.
Now, as for your question about why atheists abide by a code of moral conduct - just because I am an atheist does not mean I have no ethics. I have my own idea of what is right and wrong, not because I'm worried about getting into heaven or anything, but because I've established by my own set of rules. And, yes, they are probably similar to yours, but I follow them because I want to. Nothing is forcing me to. No one every said that "the only thing in life is myself and my own pleasure". I don't think that. I am considerate of other people. I just don't believe in God. The two things are not incompatible.
Please don't quote scriptures, because I don't count them as I reliable source of evidence. If you're trying to prove the existence of God to me, then it makes no sense that you should quote something I don't believe in.
You don't need to be religious to be a 'good' person.
At this point I must interject to say that I resent what WongFeiHung said about "middle eastern poor people". I am Arab (well, half Arab - my dad is Moroccan), and poor people in the Middle East are not necessarily in that situation because they didn't make up religion. They do have a religion, it's just not Christianity. I doubt religion has much to do with your financial well-being.
Anyway, back to my reply to Insight's post.
Saying that the texts have not changed at all is RIDICULOUS AND UNINFORMED!! Religious scripts have been modified a great deal, not necessarily on purpose, but the Bible as it is now has undergone huge modifications. Not that it makes any difference; in my opinion, it's still all BS but whatever... WongFeiHung is right, look it up some time and you'll see for yourself.
Ok now you're saying that minotaurs and dragons existed? This doesn't give a very good impression of you as a reliable person with whom to debate religion.
Look I'm not going to get in that whole angel thing, because I'm sure I wouldn't be able to change your mind - but I don't believe it.
Ok so God never says anything about doing your sister. So incest is okay, but homosexuality isn't? Or was God too busy condemning gays that he forgot about the incest thing?
Good grief...

So as far as I'm concerned we're just cells, molecules and atoms. Once the electricity, the chemistry, stops working in your brain, that's it; no more. You're history. You can talk about fairness, but that's just something you made up. It's an idea. The universe isn't fair or unfair; it works by mathematics, physics, chemistry, biochemistry... Things happen; it takes a mind to come along and call them fair or not. You people are too frightened to admit how big everything else is, what the scales of the universe are, compared to ours; distance and time. You can't accept that individually, we're microscopic; here for an eye-blink. You can't believe you're not the centre of things, so you come up with all these pathetic stories about God and life after death and life before birth, but that's cowardice. Sheer cowardice. And because it's the product of cowardice, it promotes it; "The Lord is my shepherd". Thanks a f***ing lot. So we've to live like sheep. Cowardice and cruelty. But everything's okay, because we're doing the Lord's work. f*** the silicosis, get down that mine and work, n*****! Aw shucks; sure we skinned her alive and threw her in the salt pans, but we were only doing it to save her soul. Lordy lordy, gimme that old time religion and original sin. Another baby for perdition... sh**; original sin? What sick f***wit thought that one up? My best friend died two years ago and I didn't try to dignify it with what's supposed to be metaphysical angst; it's also known as superstitious sh**. He's dead, and all there is is what he left behind. Art, in Jamie's case. That's more than most get. And there's also how people remember him. Isn't that enough? Do I have to make myself feel better by insisting that "his soul is living on"? No, I don't. And you can call me defeatist or small-minded, but you're the small-minded ones. Just accept, for once, that you're insignificant. Once you do that, you can let it go if you want to. All your bullshit religious beliefs will disintegrate, and, trust me, you'll feel so much better for being a rational human being. It's a kind of catharsis. Remember when you found out that Santa didn't really exist? There's the initial disappointment but you learn to accept it. And YOU CAN STILL BE A GOOD PERSON AND DO GOOD THINGS. Being an atheist does not make you immoral. It just makes you rational.

Well the obvious truth is that having had both experinces i'm a much better person with out religon than with it and the people who I am inspired by are rarely religious, not to say there aren't good religious people but sooner or later the dogma gets in the way. You are kidding yourself if you think you are gonna become a valuble contribution to humanity by being religious, you'll contribute but not to the solution. Namaste sheri

Welcome Nadia88 to the UM Forum!

You will find several very fine upstanding Atheist's here.

Welcome to the funny pages nadia88. I am a fellow nonbeliever but not atheist. Was that a purge you wrote or what? I hope you got it all out on that one because the mods will be all over you with that language even with the ***'s. The religious community around here think they have the moral code in their little story books and that's where it began. Little do they realize that the CODE OF ETHICS were practiced long before their fable came along. We pretty much know right from wrong. We're supposed to learn it when we're young.

I hope you like it around here. We're all good.

Hey zandore I like your new avatar, he's cute but he won't stand still long enough to pet.

first off , i would tell you to goto hell that is "if" there was a hell. im guessing your pretty young maybe 14-21 ? when i was younger i used to think this way aswell. i sought evolution as an alternative answer to a supreme being.

now as for the quote you posted :

"The bible says God doesn't want me to do my sister, but it also says that adam and eve created all humanity and if they had kids, there would be no one else for them to do! Someone had to bang their sister."

now listen up jarhead, the bible was written by man. the fact of the matter is that the bible has been rewritten so many times over the last 2000 years that we really dont know fact from fiction. how ever i can tell you right now that this little story of adam and eve is purely fiction. you dont get blacks , chineese , hispanics etc. from 2 white people. this story is mainly an example of how god gave humans the power of free will. the power to take the fruit from the sacred tree.

Emperor Constantine, gathered many of the Christian groups together during the year 381 A. D. to organize the written books that had been written about Jesus the Christ during the previous three hundred and fifty years and had the ones that he wanted to include put into a bible that he called the “new testament”. He then declared himself the first “Pope” and his new bible became the one and only official bible of his new combined “Roman Catholic” Christian church. so like i said befor , we really do not know what is fact from fiction.

as for The ancient greeks swearing their lives that there were really manticores, cyclopses and chimeras. hell , our history on this earth is so clouded that there probably where these creatures around. scientist like to think they know everything and most of the time they are proven wrong at later dates in history. just look at the hollow earth theory or even global warming for that matter. global warming cannot be proven yet it is teached to this generation as fact. just watch , in 250 years there will be talk of a mystical creature that once walked the earth with 4 legs , had big ears and a long trunk.

i guess your entitled to your own oppinion which i think is a shame. even though you do not beleave or have any faith , god is not wraithful nor vengeful and would never cast away one of his creations to a hell we humans have created in our minds. i guess i would have to conclude my comment saying that your one lucky bast**d.

im upstanding

and i have morals. but i didnt need a book to give them to me.. or at least give me ideas on how to b

And you will find alot of very fine upstanding christians also =D. Why don't we all just get along and all agree to stop being so mean to eachother. Let's put beleifs aside for a second and say...


I LOVE YOU ALL! EVEN YOU SHERRI! =D

im stil kinda new here.. but this is spirituality VS skepticism.. lol.. we r SUPPOSED to debate.. to get along we would need to go to another forum! LOL!.. i doubt any1 has anything against u personally.. ppl just dont beleive the same thing. for all i know ur cool.. but i think ur beleifs arent. .lol.

We seem to have come full; circle recently. we've gone from some people claiming the Christian God is the only way, which is offensive to others to, God doesn't exsist, you shouldn't waiste your time, why be so pathetic as to believe in something that isn't true.

Which quite frankly is equally offensive. Let's try and remember that we cater to all religous groups here not just, Pagans or Jews or Athiests or Snake worshippers or what ever belief you may have, the rules state that you still have to respect the beliefs of others.

And Nadia welcome to U.M. but please do try not to swear in your posts.

lol.. swearing? this is totally off topic but (as u said) downing each others religion is offensive! and ur worried about a few bad words? i think swearing is part of speech whether u like it or not. and fyi, i RARELY EVER swear.. i just dont find it offensive.. isnt that part of freedom of speech? to b able to say what u want when u want how u want?

edit: and when it comes to religion i dont think any1 is trying to offend.. just trying to discuss or debate

The entire point of faith in God is faith. beliveing in something you can't prove.

Zero this is not personal towards you this is a debate forum , I disagree with religon, I don't know you as a person zero this I have said before its tough in this area you can't be sensitive , I'm addressing the beleifs not you presonally, Okay??? Zero its okayif you choose not to like me I'll be fine with that and so should you. not everyone likes everyone namaste Sheri

I was being serious... I was just a random thought so I posted it. Kinda having a spontaneous do whatever day =D.

You never told me that before! That is the same way I describe myself

Welcome kritic to the UM Forum.
May you stay sane!

It might not have been the best time to post like that so soon after a MOD made a warning about the same thing.

I love you zandore ^^

Lol, you're obviously not the observant sort are you? I mean you missed the rules you were supposed to read when you joined up, as well as the fact it's my job to re-inforce those rules. So if I say please don't swear, then you should possibly just breath a sigh of relief and be thankful I used my manners. That goes for if I say please control yourself or please be a little nicer to each other as well.


Also if any-one has neglected to read the rules before joining the forum rules are available at the top right hand corner of every page and Spirituality forums have there own guidlinesit pays to make your self familiar with these things.

Thank you Zero but do you think it is appropriate with the Bible being against homosexuality?

BTW: I am a male and normal (the way you put it) so no thank you j/k

I agree with the bible teaching that homosexuality is wrong, yeah. But God doesn't hate homosexuals. He loves everyone equaly, but everyone must pay for there sins so saying God punishes gay people as a way to proove he doesn't like gay people doesn't hold.


And wawa? Not that type of love silly! I just felt like being nice to people and telling them I love them! =P

I love Zandore too. He is my friend.

Hi Monster, I believe you are right. But we always try to prove stuff. Even 's

For you because of your religion homosexuality is wrong. One theory is it might be genetic (the jury is still out on that one) another is that a person's (gay persons) brain is "wired" different. In either of those cases your "God" would be the one to blame.
I my self do not care what a person's sexual orientation is just as long as they are a good person inside.

Keep talking like that and people will start to wonder about you and your orientation!