Im not trying to challenge the concept of gravity at all. Im trying to point out that we can see gravity because of the definition of gravity.

The definition of gravity (choose anyone you wish) states that there is a "force" or "attraction" between two objects (actually it occurs between way more, but for simplicity...). That is the key to the definition. That force exists whether I am standing on the floor or falling to it.

Gravity does not just happen when something falls toward the Earth.

And if you state you can "see" gravity, one could claim they see the "force" of God in all things becuse the definition of God allows for it/him/her/they to be all encompassing and broad.

I was trying to explain it in a way so that everybody could understand. But if you really want to challange the concept of gravity, we can in another forum. I was a physics major. Gravity is still not fully understood, Stellar. You cannot "see" gravity. No one knows why gravity works as it does, they only know that it works AS it does.

The difference is that a church is not god. The attraction exerted on the book, bringing it down to the ground, however, is gravity.

On a sidenote, the mod really ought to close this thread sometime soon. It is so long and unwieldy that simply reading it to catch up takes hours.

Your reasoning makes little sense. By this statement of yours, you should rather say that the book is gravity.

A church may not be God, a tree may not be God, a newborn baby may not be God..... but is there an unseen force called God surrounding it?

Just a thought.
That's new. Locking a topic because it is too successful

Regards, PA

All this talk about 2 guys kissing is getting me hot!

The Illusion of Gravity
The force of gravity and one of the dimensions of space might be generated out of the peculiar interactions of particles and fields existing in a lower-dimensional realm
By Juan Maldacena


Three spatial dimensions are visible all around us--up/down, left/right, forward/backward. Add time to the mix, and the result is a four-dimensional blending of space and time known as spacetime. Thus, we live in a four-dimensional universe. Or do we?
Amazingly, some new theories of physics predict that one of the three dimensions of space could be a kind of an illusion--that in actuality all the particles and fields that make up reality are moving about in a two-dimensional realm like the Flatland of Edwin A. Abbott. Gravity, too, would be part of the illusion: a force that is not present in the two-dimensional world but that materializes along with the emergence of the illusory third dimension....continued at Scientific American Digital

I think he was just saying that by seeing the book fall you're seeing gravity, as gravity is the force that pulls the book to the ground. Somethin like that XD

What proof do you offer that he is not real....

and what proof do you have of 'him' (outside of your own head, that is)....

thus gods are a construct, and illusion, a misunderstanding, a product of the pineal gland, but not any more real than a dream.

Didn't they teach about General Relativity when you where a physics major? Gravity, as it is currently known, is the warping of space-time by mass-energy. Although we are still not sure how gravity might be fused with Quantum Mechanics, that basic bit I just mentioned has been tested scientifically.

We can't even proove that their are other dimensions though. O_o

well, if a theory with holes is not correct then you should throw out that bible!

I'm not sure what your post is even trying to imply. It didn't refute one thing I said. And what about General Theory of Relativity would you like to know? The warping of space-time by energy-mass, while tested, is still only a model to explain the effects of gravity. Quantum mechanics can be tested and proven as well, yet the two theories do not work togethor. Or were you not aware of that?

I was pointing out that the warping of space-time is the best existing model (that I know of) for explaining what gravity actually is, since it has been tested and experimentally is correct.

I thought my post was pretty clear that we have yet to find a way to merge Quantum Mechanics with gravity under General Relativity. Why did you think I said otherwise?

Here's a point; and one not often explored here...It doesn't really matter if God exists or not. Not one jot or iota..
The belief in God's existence sparks numerous debates, problems and threads on this forum, but the simple fact is just this..
It's the belief in God that sparks the faith in people, and the disbelief that sparks the controversy..
The point is; throughout the history of this planet God has either existed or has not.
Those who believe draw strength from that, and those who don't find their mettle in proving otherwise, but at the end of the day; who cares?
Everyone is free to believe as they will,and no amount of evidence or arguing will change that in an individual until the time is right for them..
So why bother with the arguments?
Instead why not use the time you spend arguing here to let someone you care about know you love them?
If you're the religious type you've just upheld the tenets you're supposed to and you're a credit to your faith; and if you disbelieve in God totally you will have proved that Atheists aren't heartless and can make the world a better place..
That would pack in more pure meaning than any seventeen inch post full of quotes than you could ever possibly post on here..

Now I fully expect this post will be ignored and not commented on, as it bespeaks good sense; and preaches love and tolerance for everyone. I was prepared for that when I wrote it...
But if even a small sentence of it drills into your skull then my battle is won..

Those who believe draw strength from that, and those who don't find their mettle in proving otherwise...

Here's a point; and one not often explored here...It doesn't really matter if God exists or not. Not one jot or iota..
The belief in God's existence sparks numerous debates, problems and threads on this forum, but the simple fact is just this..
It's the belief in God that sparks the faith in people, and the disbelief that sparks the controversy..

Are you implying quantum mechaincs is flawed because it does not incorporate "gravity under General Relativity"...? I'm sorry, I realize that science notices effects in the universe and creates models to explain those effects. The models are tested and called "true" even if they clash with another model that is called "true"... such as is the case with General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. And you are right: I basically said that we still don't fully understand gravity. I hope this doesn't sound mean, but if you really do, perhaps I could see your thesis or paper. It would have to tie in with Quantum Mechanics because the reality is that the world functions by the pecularities in the quantum world. You realize General Theory of Relativity does not cover the Strong and Weak Forces, right? I hope this isn't coming off as being combatitive, because I'm not trying to be.

Ok, before any of you religious people come in here and start saying how I'm going to go to hell, and turned into salt or whatever, read this WHOLE thing.
(Some of the things I say here may have been posted in replies to other topics)

I believe that God is completely made up. Throughout many thousands of years and civilizations all over the globe, societies have had a God or gods. This is because they have no better explanation for misunderstood things. "There was an earthquake!!! God is angry!" "Our crops grew tall this year!!! God is pleased!" "This lady woke up from a coma!!! It's a miracle, God saved her!" And so with the common belief that god controls everything we have accepted his rule and everything he does is right. "My grandma dies!!! God did that for a reason!" and so on.

The reason that civilization made God or gods was to keep everyone in line. So many more people would resist stealing and murdering if they thought they would go to hell if they did so. Everyone would be a better person if they thought they would go to heaven for it. God was created to help people stick together and prosper. And I don't think it was a bad thing! Society might not have advanced past what middle eastern poor people have now if they didn't make it, so it was a great idea to conjure that illusion up!

And isn't it convenient that there is no way of proving any of this stuff. Is there a heaven, only the dead know. Is there a god, same answer. How do I know there is a God? You just have to believe....... That last remark is what really bugs me about religion. You just have to believe. What are we believing in? are we believing the priest that there is a God? How does HE know?? He believed a different priest and here is how the telephone game starts. You start out saying "oh Ted has a funny face", and it ends up as "Green books taste like toe jam!" There is no credibility. Religion is worse! It has gone on for thousands of years!

The ancient greeks would have sworn on their lives that there were really manticores, cyclopses and chimeras, but no we know they don't exist. And the same thing happens with christians and angels. maybe they don't see them as frequently, but they believe. If there really is a god, then the bibles MUST be false. This is a quote I got off of comedy central (tv) and i think it is true while funny. I'm not sure it is really a quote though because I don't remember it word for word. "The bible says God doesn't want me to do my sister, but it also says that adam and eve created all humanity and if they had kids, there would be no one else for them to do! Someone had to bang their sister."

I might have forgotten some stuff, but I am tired and it's like midnight here so if you Christians want to attack me now, go ahead, I'm sure there is plenty of stuff in there for you to find holes in, but once you point them out to me, I WILL fill them in.

And that is string theory.

Ah, you are wrong about allot of things here.
You see, the proof is all around us, demons and angels are as real as the back of your hand, for you see, it's like this, so many times have mental illnesses been confused with demons throughout all of society since the word was defined. But if you really want to find out, you should ask other people that have been there and know about these things, they will tell you some interesting stories and most of them have played and tampered with evil and dark things such as ouija boards, but I can't prove it to you, like you want us to, all I can do is give you a reference, you can't prove that god exists, you can't prove he doesn't exist, it is as simple as that.

That's made my day. Think I'm going to go ask a demon to take over my body and see what happens... You're all the one that was trying to summon a dark and evil spirit last night. *puts up pothead filter*

That to me, an Atheist, was very beautiful and has turned me Agnostic.

Love is not even close to the power of such a being. You Christians suppose that this Being was somehow incarnate in a man-you are not even close to comprehending the true mystery!

his only message to the world was kindness and understanding

His message to the world was Forgiveness!

(and some say there is no 'value' in that)

Joc, Why would there be a need for forgiveness??