Actually i am serious joc Why the need for forgiveness in your opinion, Of all the thousands of silly beleifs the bible isn't one of mine I haven't found it serves me. namaste sheri

I know you are serious Sheri.

The state of mankind exists as far more than a 'religious' debate. The Mind of Man is all important. There is a cleansing of the mind, so to speak, that comes about when one forgives.
Forgiveness says: My hate is not going to be the driving force of my mind...rather it shall be governed by love. Forgiveness takes Negatives and turns them into Positives. Forgiveness extends hope to the unforgiven. You know Sheri...thought process is a giant revolving circle of sorts...sometimes we get so wrapped up in a certain revolution of thought that it orbits us right out of the realm of 'reality'. While on one hand it is a good idea to 'fly' with our thought processes...eventual self-destruction is almost certain if we don't keep at least one foot on the terra-ferma of our Mind.

Joc and the bible is "reality" to you HMMM, Forgiveness is a elementary understanding , Joc Healing is another word for forgiveness it can be a bridge that creates an enviorment of healing, its not rocket science it wouldn't need such a dramatic production as suggested by the life of Jesus to get that across,nor is the current understanding of Jesus very deep do you have children Joc if so, you have observed yourself the tool of forgiveness namaste Sheri

Actually Healing is the effect caused by Forgiveness.

In your opinion perhaps......

Forgiveness allows you to heal just about any psychological, emotionnal and sometimes physical problem you imagine inflicted on you Comforting can be another word for forgiveness along with healing, its not the effect of it, its very nature is healing and comforting. The understanding of forgiveness is primitive in the bible its so warped and distorted the original meaning of jesus's life has been lost(if he lived) If you have forgiven anyone you should understand its nature Just as love is freedom limitless and eternal its not the effect of love it is love. ( if you beleive in love that is) Namaste Sheri

The problem with string theory is that while it can bridge the gap between gravity and quantum mechanics, it also produces a whole lot of predictions that are extremely difficult to experimentally test, like the 'ten dimensions.'

Another problem is that there are five formulations of string theory
And it keeps expanding. They added Father theory (12 dimensions) a couple of months back.

what i was originally referencing is the theory of space being 2 dimensional with gravity and the third being an illusion.

I feel forgiveness because i can empathise with a person in a given situation through human compassion not because im trying to live up to the moral guidelines set by someone else’s example
and if Jesus ever existed at all he can take the credit for being the first hippy and nothing besides

This is actually something that we can soundly agree on.

It sounds like you have a bit of bitterness towards God and the Church, i may be wrong though. Okay, i've heard your view and understand where you are getting at.

Allow me to entertain you with some brain crunchers to work out your beef with religion and God. By these responses, I mean all due respect and no offense in any circumstance.

First off, i noticed that you aimed this debate toward Christians. I understand Christians are the main body of debaters here, but I'm convinced that athiesm is just rebellion against the Churches of the world for all the hypocritical things they've done. My question is, if you got beef with the Church, why aren't you calling the people out on thier hypocrisy? Why'd you forsake faith and blame their religion. Religion had nothing to do with how those people acted, it was all them. Their hearts were tainted from the beginning. Just because you believe Jesus came, it doesn't mean you follow him. I think you should understand that religion itself is pure, its the people that are unpure. They will blame anything for their foolish choices except themselves. They lust and seek out to be gods among people. Its human nature.

Second, I understand your reasoning for believing that God was made up. It seems logical. Could you be right, or could have God shown himself in many different ways to many different people to see how they would follow him? In the beginning around Noah's time, everyone knew of God. There was no set religion, but many men decided to follow their own desires and totally ignore God. It could have also been a telephone game (as you call it) down the generations of mankind until they forgot completely. Maybe people admired the aspects of one religion more than their own and then made their own religion. I dunno. I have faith, I believe, and I know in my heart that God exists.
Take the story of Noah for example. The asians, muslims, hawaiins, ect. all have their own story about a man on a giant boat escaping the flood waters that flooded the whole earth and killed all living things. Guess what, he had different names too. Who told this man that the flood was coming? God. in all cultures. It could be a good possibility that God exists, but everyone told the testimony from their own perspective.

Third, while it makes sense that civilization would have used religion to keep everyone in line, that excuse doesn't work anymore. Many different religions continue to thrive despite the rising number of nonreligious people and great tragedies. I also feel it is not our place to make excuses for other people's belief, since we have only one mind that is our own. No two minds are identical.

Fourth, if you want proof of God, you will have to look beyond earth and science. Look at love. Do you love someone? If you love them, that means that you will die for them. That means you would give up everything you worked so hard for to benefit the health and happiness of a brother, sister, wife, girlfriend, friend, or what have you. My point is that by loving someone, you are acting contrary to human and animal nature for you deprive yourself of what helps you survive for the survival of someone else. Why end your life after you worked so hard to be happy? It makes no sense to die if there is no afterlife. Death would then make living pointless. People must be just too intelligent to reason with that concept though.
There is also time. When did time begin? How did time begin? Where did time begin? Everything had to start from something. Everything had to come from somewhere. Before the big bang, where did the universe before that come from? And so on and so forth. Science cannot answer this very simple question. I say God. I don't need to know about God's origins because he tells me all I need to know. Just as a parent hides things from his kids to protect them or keep them on the right path, i see the same with God's origins.

Lastly, I believe that Adam and Eve were actual creations by God whereas humans were likened to animals. If you notice, Even had Cain first and then Abel. Cain killed Abel and was kicked out of the Garden of Eden before Eve gave birth to Seth. Cain complained about how people will seek his life when he was to be kicked out. Who would seek his life? It also says that Cain went to the East and got married. He had kids too. Who did he marry? You might want to ponder on the possiblity that in the beginning could have been the beginning of God's dealing with mankind. Heck, there could have been an ice age and then God decided to work with man. Why do you think there is a missing link between apes and man. Because man is God's creation that he made for his glory.

I am very eager to discuss this with you. If you see anything that misleads you, please point it out to me.

God bless

Great post! Scientists still don't know how the universe was created. But they still won't even consider a creator. Even though there's no evidence or proof of a creator, in my opinion so far it would be the only working idea of what created the universe. Something acting outside of our perception, created everything we now know.

thanks, its odd that none respond to the whole "how did time start" thing. I wonder why?

WHy should they? Science is not about jumping to conclusions.



"Opinion" is the key word.

If we can't find out how time began, how are we ever going to prove God doesn't or does exist? That's why it is a matter of faith.

God Bless

Nor does anyone else know, for sure. Scientists posit it came from a Big Bang, because that is what the evidence leads them to believe. It is possible they are incorrect and most scientists accept that as well.
Some of them do.

What most of them will not do is accept positions that are not in accord with the evidence.
This is the difference between religion and science, faith and evidence. They have different roles to play. Science seeks to explain how the laws of nature, (or God), work whilst religion seeks to discover why there are laws at all.


Arc

I believe religion is a personal relationship with God and other believers. Love would be that relationship. Not to question laws. For, if love was in practice, the laws would already be obeyed. The obedience of law is love, we all seek love, so we don't neccessarily seek to discover why there are laws at all. If you know your own heart, you may realize why there are laws in the first place.

God bless

What is this string theory all yall speak of?

Bluefinger I want to comment on some of the statements you made about the OP. Athiests aren't rebelling as you call it. They choose not to believe in fantasies and their beefwith religion is that the religious have a nasty habit of injecting their beliefs into a nonbelievers life, usually through government or forced belief in conversation.
Next, during Noah's time people believed everything was controlled by a god. Fables were the only way people communicated across the lands. That is why they are so simular not because they are true.
You speak of love as though the only way to truely know it or appreciate it is to know your god. That is not true in the least. I have been an N/B for many years and I know of and live with love every day. I don't need some man made entity to show me love. I look around me every day and I appreciate all that the natural world has to offer.
I have also heard you make mention of the time elements that you believe a god created. I am curious, if god created time then time will cease when the revelation is fulfilled? How can this happen when time is infinate? We all want to know how time began, but I think your answer is very simplistic and I don't think it's inception is quite that easily explained. But hey,whatever makes you happy

Check out this link. It does a pretty decent job.

okay, thanks for the reply.
An athiest may not see turning away from God as a rebellion, maybe more like a liberation from an order they see is useless. I know many athiests and most of them grew up in Christian homes and went to Church every sunday.
As I said before, don't have beef with the religion, have beef with the people. Because there are good believers as there are those that claim Jesus, but refuse to walk in His steps. The religion isn't the problem. The teaching itself can do nothing, only the person. Why refuse to call a man out on his hypocrisy? Would this not be easier than blaming a religion for the things he did. Nothing makes us make decisions but ourselves. Our minds and hearts are ours and no one elses.
I didn't say that only religious people love. I said true religion is love, love for God and love for your neighbor. I think you misinterpreted what I said.
Time doesn't cease when revelation is fulfilled. Revelation says it itself.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Time keeps going on, because God lives forever. Since God lives forever, then we who confide in him live forever as well.
God Bless

You are under the assumption that the book you follow hasn't been tampered with by man. We all know that it has. So that would make the interpretation of the book not of the words of your god but the words of people. Not to mention the sermons given every sunday in the interpretation of the clergy. Then there are the interpretations of all the people reading the book. What is the real story? Does anyone really know anymore? No wonder so many people are confused. This is one of the reasons some of us liberated ourselves from fairytale gods.

I see where you are getting at. But, if I were a god, i'm not but i'm just saying if i was, I wouldn't mislead my creation. If I was an inventor, I wouldn't send the invention without an instruction manual or a salesman to explain it. My point is, that I trust God enough to keep me in the right direction, so no, I don't think it was tampered with. I think the Church has taken and still takes plenty of opportunities to discern the false from the true.
I agree that, back then during the apostles' times, people wrote things in their names to mislead people, but I'm sure the apostles stood their ground and kept true teaching. Its up to you to choose what you think is right. Just because the thought of God doesn't work out for, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work out for others or even make sense to them.
The way I look at it is this.....If I was a greek in a latin providence and no one spoke latin in my family and none of the latin people spoke greek, then how would the latin people understand the greek people when they speak? They aren't in the same family and weren't born into that custom and language. The same goes with God.
God is a Spirit. If you don't have Spiritual eyes that only God can give, how will you see God. If you don't have Spiritual ears that only God can give, how will you hear him speak to you? This is symbolic, if you can tell me what I'm trying to tell you, but uncoded, then maybe I can speak further about this to you.

God bless

Does this apply to all of the Gods that existed both before and after the Christian God

you ask me about my religion, i tell you by my religion. I don't know what to say about the other religions and its not my place. God bless

Christianity is not the only religion on this dust ball called Earth. There are religions older than it is, does this apply to all of them also?

To the believer the religion/God that they follow is real, just as is your God is to you.

how many times do I have to repeat myself?

God bless

If you don't have Spiritual eyes that only God can give, how will you see God. If you don't have Spiritual ears that only God can give, how will you hear him speak to you?

Bluefinger I assure you at one time I was told how to see a god and how to hear a god but the truth found me and I know why I never heard or saw anything but tales of old. Once I got over the fear instilled in my psyche by the religious community including my family I realized that these stories were only repeated fables with lessons attached. I can't take them any more seriously than Harry Potter.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

AMEN Brother......

He who knows not Ahura Mazda is spiritually poor and temps damnation - Fargard 5:1

Amen Brothers

You know, I went from not believing to believing in the Bible, and Fear at no time was a part of my choice. It was a choice made purely out of Love - like Bluefinger said, true Religion is Love (thanks BF, well said )

Regards, PA

Same here. Fear has nothing to do with it. People just try to find all kinds of different reasons to make Christianity look bad don't they. O_o They must never sleep conjuring up these ideas.

You know zero you seem to have this knack for saying the wrong things. I don't need to lose sleep conjuring these things up. In my religious experiences I have been made to fear many things according to their dogma. Don't dismiss what I am saying because you might not have experienced the same. You are young and have much to learn. One day you will realize where I am coming from.

As I suspect....Typical Christian attitude (intolerance).

To these other religions.....Christianity is a false religion.

I believe in God as a spiritual being, there are a lot of things I don't believe in but God is not one of them.

People say things like - If there was a God then why are there so many bad things in the world.

My understanding is...For everything, there is an opposite, ie where there is a right there is a wrong, where there is good there is bad ect..! We are put on this earth and it is up to us what path we choose to lead whether it is good or bad.

ah becky's mom,

now there is no good, no bad, no, evil. these are all value judgements and are a matter of perspective. perhaps the best def of a god is it is a value judgement based on perspective. for just like good, evil, right, wrong, et al, they do not exist outside of the thoughts of those that utilize such constructs.

I went from Catholic to Agnostic... Now figure that one out.

how do you twist my words like that? I said that I can't speak for other religions, not that I condemn them. Is it that you misunderstood what I said, or do you just hear what you want to hear? As a Christian, I have NO obligation to look into other religions or even consider them. I don't have to open myself up to other religions either, because I am quite comfortable with mine, thankyou.
Good night and God bless.

Beautiful posts. I love them all. Everything is true when it comes to divinity: atheism, polytheism, pantheism, monotheism.

"ONE is all.... Deny not ONE while you live. The world is full of those who say they seek ONE. How is it that seekers always blind themselves first to their surroundings? Until they remove the film, they seek in vain. Do you wish a word of comfort? There is none. Do you wish a better road? There is none. Do you wish a Savior? There is none. For you, there is only ONE. You will make that do." p. 385.

"The juice of memory rises. When it spills will be the time of reversal. It is coming. Be ye prepared. Mighty shall be the roar, violent the rending, joyous the release." p. 164

"The foretelling time. The pages from the rear are in the fore. Sun-worshippers have taken their place. The ray of love is seldom perceived and often misunderstood as having flesh. The daybreak of the new morn is founded on the proper perception of the ray of love. Babes know it not- -neither man nor woman. The mystic alone knows the reality of this ray." The Word of One, "Doer

Like all holy books, the Bible is to be interpreted symbolically, not literally. It is the fundamentalists who take things literally, and give rise to terrorists and televangelists. To take it literally is to make a deliberate misunderanding.

To seek spirituality is good. To assume there is only one path is wrong.

All quotes are from the Word of One. == love, Cebrakon

I agree with most of your post, so don't think I'm picking on you. I'm just wondering if you can clarify something for me. If all ways are right, then the terrorist who straps a bomb onto himself and blows themselves up in a schoolbus is doing according to their beliefs. Most people, however, would onsider this a wrong path. Yet if all ways are right, then is this also right, is it not.

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

please judge your tree byt the fruit it bears, like your master taught. What about the christian right bombing abortion clinics?

Love life , Love your friends ,love your world , forgive your enemies The Beano p72 1976 edition ( uk comic) nice words means nothing I could quote many more from even more inane sources

Just two question who forgives god?

And religious people would you entertain the possibility you are wrong?
(Not asking you to say your are only concede the possibility you could be)

I ask the latter as im a non believer based on the evidence i see around me but in the spirit of science can appreciate and accept i could be wrong however remote that possibility is

Geez, GM, you just do not pay attention to my posts, do you. Like my master taught (and all saracasm aside please), a tree will be judged by its fruit, and those that bomb abortion clinics have been judged by their fruits.

Please, read your Bible again. The context of the passage is speaking to the individual, not the collective. Judge the individual by their fruits.

I seriously hope I do not have to post this again. Thank you.

Regards, PA

I feel I must step in here a moment. The fundies that are bombing clinics and hanging blacks and gays are the same as those muslums that blow themselves to smitherines. They are under the misguided impression that they are doing the right thing in the eyes of their god. As you religious believe, in the beginning there was only one tree and it created many different trees from the same seed.

It is not about me twisting your words but about you showing other religions the respect that you want Christianity to be shown.

No, sir, its not. I show them the respect I should be by leaving them alone. I don't try to convert them, so what else should I do? Should I read up on their religion and study their ways? No, I won't and don't have to. I have no obligation to seek out other religions and its not for you to impose that task upon me. Do you see where I'm getting at. You don't tell an apple farmer that he should plant oranges because you like oranges. Same goes with religion, I HAVE NO OBLIGATION to pay my respects to other religions by getting involved with their practices.

Why should I care about their religion?

God bless

bluefinger it's a shame that you don't enlighten yourself by understanding other religions. You might find out more about your own and yourself.

Blue that sounds a bit righteous You will only be dogmatic and rigid and leave your self no options mentally it can get very scary when you are so sure you know everything, it cuts you off from life and growth is slow if at all, this is only a suggestion and you do as you see appropriate for yourself, But you only need to look around and see the effects of a My way is the only way concept, its been devastating to say the very least, if we are to grow as a humnaity a starting place would be in knowing the differnt beleif structures that make up your world you live in and the willingness to let go of those that aren't serving the whole. Wisdom isn't because you know everything wisdom is becasue of and made possible by what you don't know. One who is confident in his beleive structure is undaunted by anothers, beleifs can only be changed if you decide they are you are in error if you think otherwise. Namaste Sheri

This is to scary for many who already have convinced themselves of what religion is to them.
It is within each right to do as they please, but I do agree that one should at least look at others before making a final determination.

Bluefinger, does your religion come from your parents, or have you made this determination all on your own?