^ a bit harsh but oh well.

~~

the bible is a trilogy like lord of the rings. and the lord of the rings is written so much better than the bible, and is more believable.

What about Star Wars and Harry Potter?

Ive said this a million times before- the Bible hasnt fully been uncovered or "explored". What i mean by this is that a lot of what the Bible is lies beneath the ground...Only recently have some amazing finds by archaelogists and scholars debunked skeptical views of the Bible...A lot of skeptics claimed certain characters were "mythical"- when things that supported their existance came up (King David/Solomon)- their mouths were shut tight...When many skeptics claimed certain places were "mythical" then POW! Guess what? A important place in the Bible is found to be true (Pool Of Siloam) and again skeptics were hush about that...Then there were certain events that skeptics claimed simply never happened and were myth...until....you guessed it- archaelogical evidence pointed to the Bible being correct (Jerusalem being an "Empire" 10th century bc- and not a run down place with a few huts).

Basically all im saying is that the Bible is still being uncovered, and skeptics run from one corner to another- but eventually you are going to be circled and will have to swallow your pride...below are some links for skeptics to down on.

BIBLICAL POOL OF SILOAM FOUND!

KING DAVIDS PALACE UNCOVERED!?

Israel Finkelstein concluded that David and Solomon, if they existed at all, were merely "hill-country chieftains" and Jerusalem a poor, small tribal village. He claims that the myth of King David was the creation of a cult of priests trying to create for themselves a glorious history.The scientific methods for his assumptions, called a "lower dating" which essentially pushes archaeological evidence into a later century and thus erases all evidence of a Davidic monarchy, were laughed off by traditional archaeologists.
Today it's become fashionable to say there was no David, no Solomon, no Temple, no prophets. But suddenly the facts on the ground are speaking, and those outspoken voices are stammering."

KING SOLOMANS GATE AT TEL GEZER PROVES HIS EXISTANCE!

The Bible just keeps proving skeptics wrong, dont worry the skeptics will move to another "myth" in the Bible which will be unearthed and uncovered- cant wait for the next exciting discovery

and yet nothing miracle-y has ever been proven, no records of jesus. apart from records written 200 years after jesus's supposed life and death, so what if the bible records some history, most religious books do. but then those religions place those historical moments as if their god did it, and so forth.

but i'm not at all surprised historical events are recorded, to bad the jesus within the bible has no written proof (as in written proof of his time era) has ever been uncovered. and i truly doubt it ever will, until someone decides to make a mock written note bearing the name jesus of nazerath.(sp)

Thats just the thing...! Many scholars and skeptics believe that King David and Solomon were fake/false/lies/myths- but then archaelogists uncovered proof of their existance...yes its findings ARE a miracle...for the Bible. The exact same thing will happen for Jesus...so many believe he was "mythical" yet just as what happened to David will happen to Jesus...breaking evidence will emerge that will force many to accept not only a historical Jesus...but a biblical one.

These people that were meant to be taken SERIOUSLY plain doubted the existance of Biblical people, places and events...Yet many times they have been proven wrong. Thats a fact. So how many more times are you going to follow these so called "big-shots" who keep getting corrected by their own weapons and tools? The Bible is being uncovered as i said. You doubt there will be proof of Jesus...i bet you doubted there would be proof of David or Solomon or a 10th century Jewish Empire...but guess what? Proof emerged and you can no longer doubt...but accept the facts.

Rammie, as I have pointed out over and over….no competent scholar has ever made a statement that the Pool never existed. Something this unimportant would not even be on the event horizon of a historian, archaeologist, or scholar. Even then, the existence of a pool that probably figured into the day-to-day mythology and superstition of the Jews of ancient Judea would have no impact at all as evidence of Jesus existing (the normal reason for your trotting out this tidbit of data). There would be no reason for a competent scholar to deny the existence of this pool, but they might say that it’s location was unknown….a different thing to everyone but an apologist. We need to reiterate that what you keep calling “King David’s Palace” is not accepted as that. In fact more and more it is looking to be a Jebusite public building and a century or so too old to be anything to do with David. As for the Gate’s of Solomon – you do realize that the website you linked is about a 1971 dig? Since then there have been several revisions to the pottery dating by competent Israeli, British and American Archaeologists, resulting in a re-dating of this gate to the 12th century BCE, during the Egyptian period of occupation. If you are going to try to use archaeology and history to “prove” your god, you best use up-to-date material (oh, that’s right, up to date material tends to disprove those things you want to prove).

Mako the pool was a better than "average" discovery for a number of reasons that i wont get into as its too late. You say that its not King Davids Palace- notice i put a question mark next to my link claiming that it MAY have been found- yet you saying it is being shown to be a Jebusite public building is inconclusive...Different sites are saying different things so we should just wait it up- but one thing is for certain it debunks claims that Jerusalem was a run down dead town with a few huts (that you didnt seem to have an opinion on) and shows that it was part of an empire with greater buildings as the Bible stated. Mako i have to ask if you believe that King David never existed ? In my opinion thats pretty dense because most serious scholars agree (well now at least) that he did exist...the archaelogy and history isnt "proving" my God at all...yet it is proving the Bible to be more TRUE than you think.

ANd I assure you, both those numbers are incorrect. I don't know American statistics, but in Australia, according to the most recent census, it's supposed to be 60% Christian. Only 2% attend church. Of that 2%, how many are not simply SUnday Christians who don't care the rest of the week. Of that remaining 58%, how many are Christians and just do not think a church is for them.

The point is this - no one knows the true numbers, and you can make statistics say anything you want. Did you know in 2001, President Bush had an approval rating of over 93% - The highest approval rating in it's history!

Regards, PA

Since I am now convinced you are purposely ignoring my point, I will no longer respond to this. As I said, if you so choose, suggest the debate with the organizers

Regards, PA

zandore:



I couldn't help but to notice your aphorism. Evolutionist....egh? Despite the brilliance of science, evolution has major flaws. Too many to mention on this site. Yet, I respect your viewpoint.

My purpose for posting was not consumated to persuade aetheist, scientologist, satanist, or EVOLUTIONIST to accept my point of view. My response was merely dedicated to the title of this thread.

I am often perplex by the response of those that have differing viewpoints than your own. Some are capable of an intelligent debate. Whereas, others are more susceptible to take the easy road out by making ignorant (non-intellectual) statements.

If you don't believe in the BIBLE. Why are you posting on this thread?

what contradictions are in the Bible??? I havn't seen any.

God bless

lol, don't worry. Neither have I

oh noes.... not another trip down the bible-contradictions lane!

for brevity here are some:
- a loving, merciful god: john 4:8 vs jeremiah 13:14
- a peaceful god: romans 15:33 vs exodus 15:3
- kings 14:6 vs exodus 20:5
- james 5:12 vs herbrews 6:13-16
- john 10:30 vs john 14:28
- genesis 7:2 vs genesis 7:8-9
- mathew 27:5 - bs acts 1:18
- matthew 27:36,50 vs luke 23:46
- mathew 1:16 vs luke 3:23
- 2 samuel 6:23 vs 2 samuel 21:8

there are over 100 contradictions noted depending on what source one uses, but a search for the old contradictions thread is probably a better idea.

Oh god... I'm glad I'm going to the range this weekend to shoot something thats not alive, because the frustration I'd develop from dealing with some of these fanatical ignorant preachers would put me over the top.

Ask zandore - he seems to think there are 300+

And I just looked at some of those. No contradictions there. I could post specifics if you wish. But as you say, it's offtopic. If you insist, just let me know.

Regards, PA

well, until zandore gets here:

resolve just one:
john 8:15 - jesus says "you judge by human standards; i pass jugement on no one."
john 5:22 - "moreober, the father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the son,"

please, that's easy.

Context: John 5 is speaking of the future coming judgement when all will be judged, the living and the dead.



John 8 is speaking of the judgement that the Pharisees make about him, and Jesus says that he does not make such judgement:



This is what I meant when I said to zandore that if he only posts a couple of verses before and after the passage that he uses, the "contradiction" usually falls apart. Jesus is talking of completely separate forms of judgement.

Regards, PA

I will leave this to zandore, PA. I am not the bible interpreter.

PA define contradiction??? namaste sheri

No worries

Knowing his current form, zandore'll just make a joke at some point that I've written and pretend he got the better of me. All it takes though, is to just look at the passages in context - i mean, it's fairly straightforward when you look at the two passages I posted for ya's.

Regards, PA

Look at how many people have replaced the living word of God that is spoken to them in their heart for a book.
The beast is the bible and is the anti christ.
IMLO

Shorter Oxford English Dictionary

Contradiction: 1. The action of contradicting or opposing. 2. Declaring to be untrue or erroneous; affirming the contrary; denial. 3. A statement that contradicts another. 4. A state of opposition in things compared; variance; inconsistency. 5. A statement or phrase containing contradictory propositions or terms. 6. A contradictory act, fact, or condition. 7. A person made up of contradictory qualities.

Choose your definition.

PA interesting all die because God is good!!! Gods will the same as saying no responsibility, Wanting to know the truth, wanting to know the truth only as you understand it So you agree with everything that falls into your paradigm of understanding and reject everything that does not and this you call learning this you call being open to teachings yet how can you be open to teachings except the teachings you have decided are truth (the bible in my definition this is contradictory. Namaste Sheri

You have to take the Bible as a whole, not be segregating it into little parts. Not by taking one verse here, one verse there and saying "look, it says this". FOr the skeptics, that may be something as annoying as the passage above in this thread (John 5, John 8), trying to debunk the Bible somehow.

When it is done by the believer, that is when things can get really ugly. This is the stuff fundamentalism is made out of. Fanatics, fundamentalists, terrorists, bombers. Whatever you choose to call them, the effect is the same.

But the Bible itself, as I said, read in context with itself, and interpreted through itself, is (for me at least) God's divinely inspired word. It is not contradictory, nor self-defeating. It is lovely, beautiful and complete. But it must be taken in the context of it's whole, not it's parts.

Regards, PA

oh, I know I'm rambling. Sorry. I just couldn't be bothered going back over my post and editing it for ya's. You're just going to have to deal with it

i agree with you PA, it is all or none. now if only you had the whole bible....

If only. But to steal a line from my new favourite scifi show, Firefly: if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak!

PA in its entirety as a whole the bible is contradictory, Can't we simply agree that lifes mysterys couldn't possibly be defined or covered in the bible that sacredness may be in many places??? That the "truth" is as you understand it, the greatest barrier that you and I have is you think you already know all there is to know, its not possible, I have no problem that you find comfort in your constructs that religion works for you but this constant this is right this is wrong are simply labels that are used to define the material and yourself not anything more serious than that, maybe things are both right and wrong after all there is a relative world. Now I'm rambling namaste Sheri

We can agree to a point Sheri. We can agree that we both have different ideas, and that ultimately we do not know if i am right, or you are right, or both are right, or neither are right. We can agree that both our belief structure's bring comfort and joy and peace and whatever other adjective you choose to insert. We can agree that we each respect the other's choices no matter that we do not agree with them. We can agree on these and more besides.

But I do not agree that the Bible is contradictory - imo, it is not, plain and simple. I do not agree that I know everything there is to know. I admit that I do not know everything. I do continue to look and search for those answers that I lack. At this point in time, that search is conducted through the filter of my belief in God. Will this be the same in ten years or twenty or fifty? I can't say - I am not clairvoyant. If my belief stays the same (and I cannot see it changing any time soon), then I will still have religion. But in that ten or twenty or fifty years from now, whatever happens I will expand and grow. Religion (or should I say my Faith) is not this stifling box that you think it is. It does not stagnate, but allows me to grow and seek new horizons. It allows me to breathe and to see beyond the end of my nose. Beyond the end of tomorrow.

My Faith is simply my opinion. I believe it is right, and whether I am or not, that belief will not change.

Hope this helps a little.

regards, PA

It has to be at least part fiction. I mean in one part he takes one of Adams ribs to create Eve, and men do not have on less rib than woman. And also there had to be some serious incest in that family if Adam and Eve where the only ones on earth.

I tend to lean towards evolution, but I also believe in reincarnation so I guess I am just a walking contradiction.

PA very nicely put , It seems we might be building a friendship getting to know each other. and you are actually more open that you seem at first glance. namaste Sheri

Thanks Sheri.

hello pumpkin,

i see the "adam and eve" not as a symbol of the first humans, but as a symbol of the beginning of the tribes of the jews.

the Tenach is a book of rich symbolism and colourful language, not to be taken literally.

I have only one problem with the jewish laws.
My grandma is Jewish and my father is Jewish
but since my mother is Catholic and am not concidered
Jewish. What a dumb rule to have. Not that I care now
I have no religon, but as a kid it hurt.

Pumpkin welcome to UM I love your avatar and I have a question are you a NIP TUCK fan?? If so I already like you ( excuse the momentary distraction i apologize to the starter of this thread)

Actualy I am a Charmed fan :0)
I can never decide who I love more
good (Leo) or bad (Cole) so I kind
of switch back and forth. Thanks for
the warm welcome...... I am just getting
warmed up :0)

Kat

Ah yes charmed, i like Julian myself namaste Sheri

Sadly, many historical things are "true"- as true as it can be, regarding them mostly being stories-around-the-campfire forwarded and altered by generations.
They are implemented primarily to make the religious details more believable, nothing else. Since it is written by many different men over ages, is it impossible to determine the accuracy in every detail.

Just remain criticising and don't trust everything they "teach" you, and you should be fine

loving and merciful can quite misinterpreted by many. For example, it is love and mercy to do what God did to Jerusalem, why? For the sake of future generations that had to be born of those thick headed rebels. How often did God lament for His people to choose the right path and they chose only hate toward eachother and those around them? Alot.

A peaceful God is a God seeks not to doom all, but to bring them to salvation. If they don't want to accept His salvation, they bring doom on themselves; for only eternal life and peace can be found in God. This is by confiding in Christ Jesus, who is the Prince of Peace.

Pay more attention to some of Jesus's parables, you will learn much about God's character. Take the parable of the vineyard for example. The master sent servants out to tend to a vineyard. When the harvest season came, the master sent servants out to collect from the servants over the vineyard. When they arrived, the servants killed them. Again the master sent more and more, and the other servants killed them each time. (I know this is a fast version.) Atlast, the Master sent his only Son saying, "Surely they'll listen to my Son." But the servants killed him. Then the Master went down to the vineyard himself and dealt with the servants according to his judgement and vengence.

Didn't these servants not have ample opportunity to give the Master what was his? Yes, but they sought out to do for themselves with what was the Master's. Repeatedly, God had mercy and sent out prophets to get the people of Israel to get on the path to life, but they continuously chose the path to death. Then God sent Jesus, in whom eternal life is found, and they killed Him as well. Did not the people diserve the death they earned in 70 A.D.
They did just as much then as they did when Babylon came. But, then again...who am I to judge God's vengeance.

God bless

Just in case the bible was a true story, then 99% of the world is screwed..

if the Bible is a two fold meaning, then we are either 99% screwed or 99% saved. There is much that still isn't known about God and his character. Just because people are sinners (like we all are!), it doesn't mean that we should cease to hope. For love was the new command we were given in order that all God's commands be fulfilled. Love they God. Love thy brother. This means love with a love that Jesus loved us, putting everything on the line even unto death for the wellfare and happiness of another.
Now, if gay people love God, can't help the way they feel, but continue to persue God's will no matter what, I wouldn't say they deserve hell or eternal damnation. No they deserve what most hateful law abiding Christians don't deserve, eternal life. For, if we love with a godly love, then all who are unworthy can attain an outstanding understanding of God's undieing love and unending mercy. We all got problems, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

God bless

or 99% bored with this friggin old arguement.

Have fun

i could understand that.

I will not be on for the next few days. Here is a link for you to look at: Jesus loves the little children


My grandson is one of these "children'" that Jesus loves so much that he decided that William (4 years old now) was to be born with spina bifida (< a link to read about it). Needless to say he is having problems right now and is in a coma.

I WILL be back to finish/continue this .

Have a nice day!

My thoughts and positive energy goes with you and William, old friend

I will tell him Mako.

The bible can speak for itself. It is full of contradictions. I say that as a minister and a biblical scholar. Whenever a text is translated it nuances are lost and meanings change. It is also improper to examine the bible as a complete work. Everything must be examined in its context. The first five books of the Old testament tell the story of the early Israelites. The later books tell the history of their kingdom as they recorded it, or they are morality stories to try and help refine the lessons laid down in the earlier books. The New Testament are the stories told by the followers of a Rabbinical teacher named Jesus. The important part of the bible is not its factual accuracy it is the faith that it inspires in countless people. But remember it is not the literal word of God. It is the inspired word of God. That means that thousands of years of human frailty and bias has entered into it. It also explains why some aspects of the bible contradict others. The point of the Bible is to help us examine our own faith and to try and be a mirror for each of us to view our lives in. Now this is not my church so I wont preach. I just want to emphasis that to a believer Fact is not necessary for Truth. So read the bible, read the Koran, read the other books of faith that are out there and try and find the one which speaks to you if you are looking for answers. Not every religion is right for every person. Why else would God reveal to us so many aspects and diversities of God.

first, let me welcome you to the UM forums preacherbill. May your experiences here be pleasant, and may you make many new friends.

Second, let me say I enjoyed your post, especially the last two lines.

Thirdly, I think that some of the other believers will contest the statement regarding the factual accuracy of the bible. Some of them believe it is the literal word of god; others think that some parts are literal while others are not, and which is which at any time is fluid.

Still others will say that the words in the bible do not mean what they say, but rather mean something entirely different.

To say that you are in for an interesting ride, is something of an understatement.




good journey

Thank you for the warm welcome.

You don’t know the half of it when it comes to biblical debate.

Just some background. I am a seminary student and am in my last year of school, I am serving a church on internship right now and should be ordained next year. I have been a student of theology for 8 years now and have had many a good debate.
One of the biggest problems the larger church has is its inability to politely and honestly debate issues of theology and doctrine. By larger church I mean the whole of the church, which includes any denomination that claims to be Christian. I have found more openness and honesty in places such as this where everyone can say what they believe. The important thing is for us to continue to ask questions and reform our church. Let us all remember that Jesus was a trouble maker and a pain to the organized religion of the day. So as a good Christian I should follow his example. This looks like it will be a fun place to post and keep a lively discussion going.

You will find that quite a few of us here do not believe the aforementioned gentleman ever existed. Others believe that he was just a simple Rabbi in the wrong place at the wrong time. Only the Christians here accept that he was a trouble maker, the rest of us see mainly a copy cat religion that made it to the big times.

At this point if he existed or not does not matter. He has influanced the western religons of the day for over two thousand years. So if fictional he has had and impact, if real the same. You do not have to belive in him to respect the fact that he has made and impact.