I see no impact that he made, only the impact of men acting (usually to the detriment of humanity) in his supposed name. We have no way of knowing what he taught, nor when he lived. Even those church fathers could not agree.

No the church fathers could not agree. It would be much easier if we had his diary. But nothing was writen about him untill at least 70 years after his death. That is where faith comes in. If you do not belive i respect that. I also agree that much has been done in the name of God, in any form that man has worhshiped him wich is evil and ungodly. The roman games, the crusades, the holicost, and the modern Jihad. None of these things are Godly but men claim that they are. This is a sad truth but it is true.

for a very limited portion of the Hebrew scriptures, we have outside documentation, for the new testament we have nothing!

What about Josephus's historic records? Records which record Jesus as the Christ and having died for our sins and was resurrected? Or John the Baptist being beheaded? Or about James the Just who was killed by Herod to please the crowd?

Josephus was a Jewish general in the Jewish war against Rome back around 66 A.D. Jesus Christ supposebly died between 30 and 33 A.D.

God bless

but strangely, Josephus didn't know about the walking corpses, the earthquake, the rending of the veil, or the eclipse. by contrast he records an earthquake in cleopatra's time.

Ah....and what would his fellow Romans think of him if he did go in depth? Wouldn't this bring up some curiosity. But Josephus wasn't writing about Christians, he was writing about Jewish people so that the Roman culture would know more about the Jewish culture. If you read his preface, this was for a better understanding of the Jewish people. Christianity would go too in depth. How could Josephus just mention the Messiah without even going in depth about it??? But he did, he mentioned Jesus as Christ, died on the cross, and arose three days, which is a start of Christian faith. Josehus didn't go much further than that though? For the saviour of his people, you think he would go in depth since he confessed that Jesus was the Christ....as any Jewish person would, he should have written more. Just some food for thought....and no, its not that the didn't believe it himself, otherwise he wouldn't have called Jesus the Christ (which means Messiah).

God bless

yes, one would think that he would go into greater depth, wouldn't one.

I wonder why he didn't.

Pardon me, but most all of you sound wildly ignorant and/or completely in the dark on the subject of the Christain religion and Jesus. It would take to long to respond to all your quieries, doubts, rumors and opinions. So all I ask is that all of you that read this and have posted responses take the time to have an intelligent discussion with a local pastor. After all, don't you want your questions and doubts answered? I would hate to have to live not knowing what would happen after I die. There are a lot of misconceptions that are commonly used by atheists and skeptics for why Christianity can't be true but 99% of the time it's because of faulty understanding. It's true that when a person tells a story and another person tells a story facts can get distorted, but did you ever consider that God knew ahead of time what would happen, planned for it, and delievered his masterpiece, his word to us just as he intended? Also look up how the "Dead Sea Scrolls" were found and circulated. Coincidence? Regardless, Jesus summed up everything up that anyone needs to know into a basic foundation under which each person should live, if by nothing else; love your neighbor as yourself, and love God with all your heart and soul, and accept Jesus as the son of God who died for our sins on the cross.

email me with questions rotholz1@umbc.edu

And you sound like your typical arrogant fundamentalist who knows nothing outside of the Bible. Facts are an anathema to religious automatons like you.

As for being ignorant and in the dark ... How Christian of you. I spent fifteen years as a Christian--three of those years in a hellish deconvervsion. I am well-versed in Christian apologetics. I have also studied my former faith on a collegiate level. I have a Bachelor of Science (History and Classics) from Ball State University. My area of study--Greco-Roman culture, Early Christianity, and the Middle Ages. Don't think I'm in the dark regarding religion--particularly Jesus and the origins and evolution of Christianity.



And you're calling us ignorant?! Is this how you find the truth about Christianity--ask a bias pastor? Very interesting. I think I will take the scholarly approach and seek answers by using in-depth research, reason, and a critical eye.

Sean

Welcome Preacherbill to the UM forum.



Thank you!

PreacherBill, thank you for your refreshing honesty. If I had known more Christians like you, I might still be a believer myself. Kudos to you!

Sean

I might have stayed a believer!

Yes thank you for your honesty SIR.

Zandore your jesus loves little children link its horrible...Mainly because its humanitys fault the children are in this state, here people are making multimillion dollar movies and there are people still STARVING in this world- yet average people like me give to charity...true battlers. I dont blame God or Jesus for the state the world is in and neither should you, what a shame you had to resort to so little as that site has nothing going for it besides pictures of these poor helpless children that WE watch rot that WE dont help, thats how much WE love the children, not Jesus.

omg-i didn't know it was a link!yeah, pretty horrible. i think zandore needs to read "When Bad Things Happen to Good People", a book by Harold Kushner.imho

Zannie , interesting how christianity plays on the sympathy of its followers to line its pockets, Ramster, its common knowledge they do this, did you ever notice the kids hair are cut and styled on those commercials??Can afford a hair cut but no food??Thankyou for the site Zannie maybe it will raise awareness, Ramster its always a very good idea to know about the charity you are giving too, the food ones they rarely get the food they can't get into the countrys. namaste Sheri

Yeah i wish i could directly give to them, i dont know how much i trust charity networks honestly...Maybe i dont understand the process of rebuilding but like billions of dollars were donated after the asian tsunami and apparently some are still homeless or have a tiny hut with limited resources. I am with "Care International". The link that Zannie had up was just sad in terms of its sort of pointing its finger at Jesus for all the wrong in the world, when it was such opposite- when Jesus taught nothing but good...and most are doing the exact opposite in the world right now, its always bothered me how Hollywood can spend millions to produce/make movies and how the cast of friends make $1 million per episode- in their day) - but charities strive off average people like me...Its so unjust and unfair

I always put t.v. charities with televangelists, and John Edward. I guess if you have some proof thius one or that one is real, then that's different.

How is it odd for everyone to come from adam and eve? It's proven by science that almost everyone alive comes from ONE man. They call him "scientific adam".

And then again ... might not.

Z, leave that link up! God supposedly created us. HE is responsible for taking care of us--particularly helpless little children! HE is the parent--obviously a sh*t-poor one! If HE doesn't want the responsibility of caring for HIS creation--or listening/ignoring to the millions of prayers begging HIM to save the starving children--HE should never of created us in the first place! And please nobody respond with the lame "free-will" crap!

Sean

Umm excuse me? Here are skeptics and non believers saying "Oh we dont believe in God, we take responsibility of our lives, we can think for ourselves and do our own thing, but when it comes down to the poor it is Good old GODS fault? Quit your whining. God did create us in my opinion and how the world is at the moment is our fault, completely our fault. We are selfish and careless if that wasnt true the world would be much much better. That link points the finger at Jesus, when it was Jesus himself who encouraged charity- it is OUR responsibility to take care of ourselves and each other...You avoid the fact we have governments swimming in money, multi million dollar movies (to make), dirt rich people that simply dont help out? People that can truely make a difference probably use the same excuse you do..."Oh leave it to God" when they have the POWER and the wealth that God granted them to use to help their brothers and sisters...One of the most important things in religion is to GIVE GIVE GIVE....and the people that can Give...DONT give- its a slap on the face when people like you say "Its Gods Fault- let him deal with the poverty" when hard working people like me on little wage strive to help others because i feel its my duty to help fellow man when braggers like yourself can blame it on a God you dont think exists?I blame nothing on God...If we'd stop judging God we'd have nothing to blame him for...So lets start "taking responsibility of our lives" as Skeptics love to use, and take the responisbility to help those in need.Its not Gods fault we've ruined his very gift to us.

First, I was a devout Christian for fifteen years and sponsored a child through a Christian organization. I had to stop my monthly donations because the money wasn't reaching the child, it was being siphoned off along the way. And god continuously ignored my pleas to help these poor children. Somewhere along the line HE should have stepped in and done HIS F***ING job and made sure things got done! Second, stop trying to pass the buck. This is typical of fundies. It's the fault of us filthy sinners, not my glorious loving god. HE bares no responsibility whatsoever. BS! A parent does not abandon HIS children--no matter what! HE can at least help a little!



I NEVER said, nor implied, such an asinine thing! It is up to us to make a difference ... because their is no one else to rely on.



As do I. I have little to no wage--still I give when and if I can. And I'm heading to a nursing home within the next two years--at the ripe old age of thirty-eight--to live out the rest of my days. So if you would like to know the true miseries of life, GIVE ME A CALL!!!

Bragger, eh? What a lovely Christian response! Thank you for reminding me why I fled the Christian religion in the first place! And I don't blame something that's not there. The fault lies with us.

Mate you make no sense...Why are you talking as a believer when you are not one? Even if you "were" one you've lost that perspective now. Im saying that with all the money in the world God shouldn't have to help these people, it is our responsiblity it is our duty to help them, thats the whole meaning of brother and sisterhood. The fact is the money is there, these people dont HAVE to be starving and it is peoples fault that the world is still like this...Its barely the generous that are rich i will tell you that much. God does help these people in a way, if you look at it...the most religious...the most God loving people are those that are poor and needy. Its amazing that despite their suffering they still have faith in God...Some people suffer and its horrible, but have you realised that the most poverty struck people have the most FAITH. The people that have had it so easy in life have forgotten about God, they've become so fast paced- so unlikeable. Yet people struggling everyday, people that are hungry and homeless have hope and faith in God, while most people spoiled with materials appreciate nothing of what they have, and in the end that puts them away from God- maybe everything they've had in this life, will mean absolutely nothing in the next. Gods job is done in this earth, it is in our hands...his children...its our responsibility to help each other out, and i dont blame God one bit for anything in my life... You say you dont blame whats not there(God)...but you clearly are...As i said religion is all about giving - God gave us life...If we have money to throw around on stupid special fx/films and on overpaying actors- then we have money to give to the poor- the problem can be solved so quickly...yet whats stopping the ones that can afford it? Greed and selfishness thats what...and im not a fundie, im very moderate actually!

And if one uses DNA tracing to determine human origins, then Eve needed to live 100,000 years before Adam.

And you obviously have problems with comprehension. I was not taking like a believer.



It is also your god's responsibility. Did HE not make manna fall from heaven to feed HIS followers in the desert when they were desperate? Did HE not feed HIS children? Yes! If then, why not now?

I understand what you are saying, Sean. These are questions I have often asked of myself, and God. I got no answers from either.

I think that each person is entitled to follow whatever personal belief gives him comfort and confidence. Belief is like love, it can never be wrong, it is only personal.

I am sorry to learn about your condition. Would it be too sensitive to ask what the problem is?

I read somewhere that "manna" is actually a natural phenomena, a residue left by locusts, a substance similiar to honey, which appears every morning in parts of the desert, a white fluffy substance that evaporates at sunrise, if not gathered, even today. regardless whether true, the lesson I would get from that is "things fall down to the ground to help us every day, and we have to notice them.

I would like to read more about this. Where would I look for the information?

There have been laboratory experiments indicating that if carbon and hydrogen entered the atmosphere from some cosmic event, they would combine in the form of "snow" and be carbohydrates . . . . an edible substance. In the tail of comets, for example, carbon and hydrogen are common elements. There is some evidence that planets have residual "tails" also containing these elements. The snowflakes created in laboratory conditions tasted sweet and if fallen in a wide area would appear white as snow which could explain the origin of the term of "milk and honey."

After years of resting on the earth, these "snowflakes" would be absorbed into the soil and the chemical composition would reverse, that is, carbohydrates would become hydrocarbons, or oil.

What is interesting about this concept is that it could explain the formation of oil deposits in a form much more believable than the remains of dinosaurs, etc. At the same time it would support the existence of mannah.

Ram God made everything under the sun right? So how is it mans fault then?


Question....How do you profess to know me well enough to tell me what to think? What to believe?
I am not upset just shocked!


Love the God that created (supposedly) the suffering?

NOT ME!

For now I will. I was planning on it anyway.



The flip side to that is blaming the bad and never the good on the devil. Both good and the bad.....
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Read the above verse^
Our fault.....

I have to agree with ramster over seanph big time. They say their in charge of their own life and they have good morals and help people because THEY want to, their first being hypocritical and secnod putting themself above others.

They say all this, then sit on their ass and when people starve, blame it on God to make Christians look bad. Oh wait, but I thought you don't need God to help people? Why the hell aren't you out there helping?

And who are, 'They' Zero? Are you watching all these people to know that because they are not Christian they are not helping out.

Are you one of these people who believes it is only the Church who is helping the poor and under priveledged. You know good Christian groups like the Red Cross, who are not choosy who donates money. I donate money. I donate time and yet I am not Christian. And there are a lot of non Christians on this site who also do a lot to help out.

You make some huge assumptions about people you don't actually know, don't you.

Amen Kismit!



I am in charge of my own life, help when I can simply because it is the right thing to do--period! I don't help others because I want brownie points to get into heaven--a reward--to please some invisible deity. And where did I even remotely suggest such a ridiculous thing? I am no better than anybody else and never implied that I was.



Nice language Mr. Christian.

Ephesians 5:4 (New International Version) 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

James 1:26 (New International Version) 26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

And god has a MAJOR responsibility in taking care of HIS creation--particularly children. If HE sees a child in distress that nobody is helping--or can't help for whatever reason--HE should come immediately to that child's aid. No excuse for not intervening when no one else can--none!

As for the Christian god looking bad ... HE does a fine job of that himself. Read the scriptures. His bloodthirsty behavior was the main reason I fled organized religion in the first place.



I don't. And I do whatever I can, whenever I can. But, as I mentioned in my prior post, I am limited because of little income and my physical condition. I was left quadriplegic at the age of seventeen--twenty years ago last week (I'm 38). My health is failing, and within the next two years, I will be heading for a nursing home to live out the remainder of my days. Again, though, I do what I can--particularly for the disabled community.

i've said it before and will now again, sean. this forum should be retitled "Christians versus people who can think independently and not like little robots". If I were ever in my life to consider their religion, and stumbled onto this website, i would have lost interest. Godd is the source of all things, but plays little direct part in the creation after its formation.

Well said, G!

Almost Gideon perhaps it should be retitled " Pushy evangalical people versus independent thinkers while good people who call themselves Christians cringe."

I don't care what religion anyone is, as far as I am concerned it's all the same thing. I am only concerned when people start making silly unsubstantiated remarks towards others becuase they don't agree with their opinions.

Wow Zero, I'm with sean and Gid and KIsmet, for the record i am a vegan (to make sure more grain is available to the most everyday of my life) that is my core reason, because I wanted to be the difference and many of my non religous friends do this also, I personally don't play the blame game, i look around i see what is needed for the betterment of all and I find a way that works for me and fits into my life style and do it, its natural, nothing mysterious just who I am and many others, that includes christians my best friend is a christian she gives alot of herself , My other friend is a mormon he helps so many homeless people not for his religion but because its who he is, I've suggested this before there is alot of things to learn on this site there are amazing people why not ry and learn , i learn from everyone even from you Zero. namaste Sheri

Look i hear everyone and what theyre saying and there are indeed valid points and people are angry that the state of the world is how it is...and they want to blame God for it okay then...i will put my opinion down in point form its heeps easy.

A) The most God loving people are the ones currently suffering, while the ones that forget God are the ones that have all they want and need.

There is MORE than enough money for these starving helpless people to be helped by many people...Yet no one WANTS to help.

C) Religion is all about giving, and i agree non religious people give and thats great! Yet from a religious point of view God wants us to give and to help each other and we have more than enough resources to be helping them, so why arent we? I dont understand it.

D) Jesus was a great example on how charitable people should be and he loved the children and in the Biblical stories there was no one else to help, no millionares and way people could bring the poor aid thats why God helped, now theres us...who can make a difference by many different means and we're just not doing it.

I know were helping out and were just average people, but how about the big shots, the multi million and billionares? The extremely rich givernments? Why cant anyone print a crapload of money ? Its just paper with print on it, and help them. Money doesnt grow on trees- it is MADE and we can make so much money to help so many people, but i guess some want to see the world have "lower" classes, it must give them a sense of security that they are better off than others...Shame really.

rammy, may i recommend you study economics.

Ramster On point A) of your post can you go into alittle more detail?? Thanks sheri

soooo ramster, if I work my butt off, and make some wise investments in order to provide my family with some of the luxuries of life, that means I've 'forgotten god"?

And, because of the above, I should give everything to the poor in order to 'get back to god'?

In that case, shouldn't you sell your fancy computer and give the proceeds to the poor? What are you doing for the less fortunate?

And, just for the record, I donate to several charities, and donate my time and skills as well. I don't do it because god or my church tells me I should. I do it because it is the way I am, and because it is the right thing to do.

I also second the notion that you should study economics, as well.

Here's some new food for thought:

In the book of Genesis, the serpent had arms and legs and could talk. He decieved Eve who in turn decieved Adam which means he was probably more intelligent than them. Now, Adam was a name used for mankind if you read in the book of Genesis.
Now, when God confronted the serpent, he caused the serpent to crawl on his belly and eat dust for all his life.

Now, for a scientific thought....Dinosaurs were once the dominant species on earth, and now mankind is. Many believe that dinosaurs were reptiles, as the snake is. If all this matches the Bible's explanation, the what the book of Genesis was saying is that mankind became the dominant species once the dinosaurs bit the dust.

Maybe thats why there isn't many records of dinosaurs in historical records....man was too busy being the dominant species

This would make sense of the whole tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. Also, before the flood, man was recorded to live an average of over 800 years. After the flood, the oldest they got was 200 somewhat years....

What do you think?

God bless

Hmm... Think about Adam and Eve:

If they were both white how can there be Hispanics, Black, Asians etc???

I guess in the same way that wolves became collies, cockers and chihuahuas.

No offense intended blue, but I think that is stretching your religious document a tad to cover the facts as known to date.

And, if your theory was correct, then wouldn't there be MORE historical documentation? I mean, dinos were rather large, and it would take quite a bit to 'dominate' one, no? I would think there would be massive tomes and volumes written of that titanic struggle, but thats just me.

Blue that story makes no sense unless you look at it metaphorically, meaning the adam and eve story is the birth of original thought and choice ( the origianl blessing), the birth of the relative world, dualism right and wrong, It contains the explination of this truth of which we experience as the the realm of the relative,The bible in my opinion is a place to start, the first mountain if you will but not the whole truth or the literal truth, many things contain some bit of truth. Evolution contains the truth of we evolve and grow become more of what we are, the big bang has its truth, it doesn't explain it all but it has its place as does the bible it tells us alot of what we aren't. Just my humble opinion namaste sheri

Sherri The worlds poorest nations are the biggest followers of God...You often hear homeless people talking about God, basically the ones suffering are the ones that dont forget god. I'm pretty sure im right anyways.




Nah not at all. Do Government officials work their butts off? Actors with millions under their name work their butts off? Not more than you or i - i assure you that. If you read what ive said in another post i said that God wants us to love our SELVES and each OTHER. Jmpd im pretty sure i didnt mention your name when i was saying that the rich just dont give.



You're writing your own story here...Im saying God wants us to give, no not everything...he wants us to be comfortable but if you have the opportunity to change someones life then by all means do it. Im sure any great God would support this no? I strongly believe in brother and sisterhood.



I make a difference when i can, i give monthly proceeds to CARE International of whom are currently helping people in Africa and in January next year i am joining a charity titled "Save The Children" of which i will be helping kids in Asia. I'm very proud of what im doing actually, i dont see many people as young as i even having a second glance at the world around them, many at my age are too wrapped up in themselves to care about others...I even had my own mother say "Look you have to be comfortable first, think about you first if you cant afford it dont do it". The fact is i can BARELY afford it, and as i do it because it makes me feel good i can only imagine what i'd do if i were actually rich. So yeah im doing more than most people my age to help those in need.



Sounds good to me...but im sure God is greatful for it. Its a Godly think to do in my opinion, its supported and encouraged and nothing but goodness comes out of it. You say you dont do it cause God wants you to- you do it cause its the right thing to do - but doesn't righteousness come from God?



No thanks for your kind offer.

I think you have the right idea (not related: but Eve bowed down to the devil in the Apocryha, not to mention she also jumped off a cliff before God ressurected her again).

Adam was made of dust or earth. Adam means "Of the Red Earth". In a lot of cultures adama, aw-dawn, ah-dam (Sumerian, Akkadian)mean life blood, blood clot, flesh, etc. So in my opinion, the snake was not eating literal dust, but flesh for the rest of his days.

Many scholars believe that the calendar was different up to a certain point. One month was equivalent to one year, etc. So Moses would have been 75 in our calendar.

To me, it's a metaphorical story to begin with. But if you'd like to take it literally, ethnic features can be affected by certain climates such as mountainous and desert regions.

http://www.carm.org/questions/Josephus.htm
Josephus, first century Jewish historian wrote about Jesus. The life of Jesus is real recorded history.

ok-big secret-divide by twelve. the "years" are months.
Adam lived 930 months=77.5 years.
Seth lived 912 months=76 years.
Enosh lived 905 months=75.4 years.
Enoch was 30 when "God took him .
Methusaleh, who died in the flood, was almost 81.
Noah did well at 950=79 years.

for those born after the flood, this formula doesn't work.


after the flood, divide by two:

Sarah died at 63.5 years.
Abraham lived 87.
Joseph was only 55.
Moses was 60.


After the Torah, it's pretty much normal.