Very interesting Gideon...These numbers are much easier on the ears than 950 years!
I second your opinion on this matter...time is misinterpreted in the 'holy books.'

How can an Atheist say bad things happening is God's fault when they don't believe in God? It shows that they admit it's all man's fault. God doesn't make man do bad things, man chooses to with something called free will. Simple as that. Now time to leave the topic. =P

Are you kidding you have answered your own question, lol namaste sheri

If that's so, then God created man less than a thousand years before the Israelites were taken captive by Egypt...... nah, I think the author was writing according to the already set calendar of his time, the Hebrew calendar.

as far as my post, it was just an observation, i'm not straying from doctrine or trying to prove anything. I'm just speaking an idea for gee-wiz. Also, on a more spiritual note, why did the serpent decieve Eve first instead of Adam? Because Eve was of the flesh of the man, which spiritually represented fleshly desire, seeing as the man wanted a partner of his kind, especially to mate with. The man was made from the dust of the earth with the Spirit from God's nostrils breathed into him, thus was Adam made from Spirit and flesh. I think the serpent knew that the woman would have sought to fulfill the pleasures of her husband by giving him knowledge and the ability to discern like God does.

Also, sherri, the reason why there was no documentation about the dinosaurs, because, supposebly, publishing books and records of the sort didn't occur until much later. Take the Koran for example: for years, the clerics sang the Koran out until Mohammed's child(or one of his descendents) was killed in battle, then they wrote it down. Same happened for the OT as well as the NT. Even so, I'm sure much of what they wrote down was probably destroyed in the flood. And ofcouse, we know the Torah wasn't written until after the Exodus out of Egypt.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

God bless

no-the formulae just refer to the life spans. the days of the creation each span billions of years.

Yes, Josephus mentions Jesus. However, most of that tiny paragraph is a known interpolation. And Josephus was not an eyewitness of Jesus or the events in his life. He--along with Pliny, Tacitus et al--were simply writing down what believers were saying. In fact, Josephus gives us practically nothing on Jesus while writing pages on many other messianic claimants--some of those claimants named Jesus.

Flauvius Josephus (37-100?), an important first century Jewish historian, wrote about Pontius Pilate in his important work, Antiquities of the Jews5. It is unimaginable that he should not have mentioned the trial and crucifixion of Jesus had they really occurred. It is evident that at an early date Christians were painfully aware of this fatal omission and took steps to correct it. Between sections two and four of chapter 3 of Antiquities there appears a short section, appropriately titled section 3, in which Jesus and the Christians are indeed mentioned. However, section 3 interrupts the natural flow of the text and appears to be out of place. When section 3 is removed chapter 3 makes more sense. Section 3 is an acknowledged interpolation6. Also, early Christian writers, such as Origen and Tertullian, frequently referred to Josephus without once citing this passage. They certainly would have done so had they been aware of it. Last, but by no means least, the passage was obviously written by a Christian which Josephus was not. It is interesting to note that in the sixteenth century Vossius7 had a manuscript of Josephus which does not contain the passage in question.

A second reference to Jesus is also found in book 20, chapter 9 of the Antiquities. Here it is said that by order of Annainas, James the Just, the brother of Jesus, and some others were stoned to death. It is extremely doubtful that Josephus would have made such a casual reference to Jesus without having said anything about him elsewhere. This passage seems to imply the existence of the earlier one therefore it has to be an interpolation also ....--L.W. Cable

Sean

I truly feel for you and your grandson zandore.

And that website is truly shocking. All those starving, malnourished children, when the U.S throws away enough food to feed all those and more besides. Maybe if the U.S cared a little more for people outside of their borders, those problems would not be there. Or if people stopped stuffing their own faces and gave a little to charity (obesity is on the rise you know). Or if those with much money thought about those who have little of it.

As Jesus says, look for the plank in your own eye before trying to remove the speck from your brother's.

That website shows me nothing but human selfishness and incompetence.

Regards, PA

ALL countries--including yours!--could always do more. That said, stop pointing your finger at the U.S. Didn't you just state: "As Jesus says, look for the plank in your own eye before trying to remove the speck from your brother's."?

Individual/private donations may be targeted in many ways. However, even though the charts above do show US aid to be poor (in percentage terms) compared to the rest, the generosity of the American people is far more impressive than their government. Private aid/donation has been through charity of individual people and organizations though this of course can be weighted to certain interests and areas. Nonetheless, it is interesting to note for example, per latest estimates, Americans privately give at least $34 billion overseas — more than twice the US official foreign aid of $15 billion at that time:

International giving by US foundations: $1.5 billion per year
Charitable giving by US businesses: $2.8 billion annually
American NGOs: $6.6 billion in grants, goods and volunteers.
Religious overseas ministries: $3.4 billion, including health care, literacy training, relief and development.
US colleges scholarships to foreign students: $1.3 billion
Personal remittances from the US to developing countries: $18 billion in 2000
Source: Dr. Carol Adelman, Aid and Comfort, Tech Central Station, 21 August 2002.

While Adelman admits that “there are no complete figures for international private giving” she still says that Americans are “clearly the most generous on earth in public — but especially in private — giving”. Hence these numbers and claims may be taken with caution, but even then, these are high numbers.

Sean

Thank you PA. It is something I would not wish on anyone.



As Christians say.....It is Gods will.


Maybe you forgot the tsunami earlier this year. Who sent aid? What about the earth quake in Pakistan? (Do you want me to name more?) You say that we do not care for others beyond our borders.....what about Australia? Using your logic the same can be said about your country then!


I have as much say so as you do when it comes to that topic and I agree with you.....so what can we do about it?


It shows me the Christian God's callous treatment of our babies and his complete lack of love for us in general.


BTW: As you see the MOD's took it off but do not fear

Thank you Sean!

Do you have the numbers for Australia PA?

Thanks sean. But you miss my point. I wasn't pointing fingers. I was using the U.S as an example. I realise that they are not the only country in the world, nor are the only ones not doing enough to help.

But this is sidestepping the issue. The fact is that 1st world countries have a surplus of food that gets thrown out every year simply because 3rd world countries are too poor to afford to buy it.

You words show you were pointing a finger at the U.S.

It is simply what is.



A hundred thousand die in the tsunami! A horrific event, and one that received worldwide support. A million die in Africa, and no one notices the difference.....



Indeed it can. I was just using the U.S as an example because most on this forum live there. It does of course apply to all countries and all nationalities. All humanity as a matter of fact.



It shows me something completely different.

Regards, PA

edit:


Ok, I'm sorry. I chose my words poorly.

Ignorance is bliss!

At least a few eyes here were opened by that link I had on just how much Jesus loves the little children....

Z, Australia — Economic Aid - Donor: ODA, $894 Million (FY99/00) while the U.S. gave nearly 7 billion. This does not count private donations or remittances. ALL could do a hell of a lot more.

Interesting article ...

November 1, 2003

The Privatization of Foreign Aid

Reassessing National Largesse

by Carol Adelman

TEACH THEM TO FISH

All in all, the United States is most generous. In addition to giving more foreign aid, in absolute terms, than any other country, it has long provided the most foreign direct investment to the developing world and generated the bulk of the world's research and development, spurring long-lasting economic development and saving lives through better food and medication. The United States also contributes the most militarily, guaranteeing the security necessary for growth and democracy. The big point -- that the totality of U.S. foreign assistance far exceeds U.S. ODA -- corrects the criticism that the United States is stingy in giving abroad...

http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction...details&id=3479

Yes zandore, and we all know you are correct and never use biased sources



That does not count America's population being many many times bigger than Australia either. Per capita, AUstralians were the most generous in donating to the tsunami relief fund you know.

But that is beside the point. I apologised for singling out the U.S, when I should have been broader in my statement. But I can see why you all would like to dodge the real point. If it gives you comfort to run away from this, who am I to deprive it?

Regards, PA

I can't believe this has turned into a competition on who's country donated more....come on guys catch a grip please

It doesn't matter how much was donated, any amount that has been given is still appreciated

What, that your god could give a damn about HIS creation? Who's been running?

Well I noticed the thing about the babies.

Well my friend has a son. He was born with celebral palsey. He is the most handsome young baby in the world. But he cannot walk or anything. He cannot use his left side. His mom asked me. Why me? I cannot raise a handicap child. It is so hard. I told her God only gives you what you can handle. and luckily she can handle it. She is able to take him to therapy once a week. She is able to be there for him. God does not allow someone to have an ailment unless they can handle it. God's grace is sufficient. We cannot help what we have but it can always make us or break us.

We can choose to make it good for our children and ourselves.

On birth defects and little children starving:

Ec.1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

HUH?

Can you tell me why you posted this scripture please?

We're not going very far with this and we cant...We can all be doing more to help each other, ive said it many times though i wont blame God for the state the world is in. We were given a gift and we are destroying it. In my opinion God has let things be and yes sh*t happens in life, but instead of pointing any fingers lets try to get pro-active and actually make a difference this is our world to love and to hold on to. Zandore im so sorry about the child honestly theres not much more i can say or do...Theres many things i could have blamed God about in my life trust me...my heavy asthma (i rely on steroid infested medication every single day), me getting severely bullied at school for 6 years (stabbed with scissors, punched, beaten, threatened), my cousin dying at 13 years old...theres so much that happens in life, but i dont blame God...I'd rather dismiss blaming God and/or thanking God for anything, i live and let live ... Gods vital role isnt in this life but the next.

Ramster, I don't see how a handsome young man as you would be bullied at all.

I was a dork. And I was picked on. But with boys it is so different.

I don't blame God either for the bad. I just thank him that I am here.


Great Post Ram.

there are many manuscripts that were left out of the bible like the child gospel of Jesus. there ae many more i can't think of them all right now but theres alot. i think most of the bible is based on evets that happened before the bible was even conceived. take sodom and gamorha for example, the bible was written years and years after this happened but they saw the ruins and decided it mst have been a punishment from god.

just for the record there is a medical case i remeber eading about that a woman had emaculate conception. What happened was that she was a hermphradite and she had impregnated herself somehow. i'm not sure on the details but it did say the girl was a virgin when she concived. just a little extra.

but i don't believe that jesus was the son of god but more likely just a cool guy with some really good ideas. and I think it would have been ok for mary to go visit her son.

And the whole hermaphrodite story wouldn't really matter necessarily. Because "virgin" in the original translation was just a young maiden, or an unmarried woman I believe.

Yea, it was simply a mistranslation from ancient Hebrew to koine Greek. The word for virgin in Greek is parthenos. In original Hebrew, the word almah means a young woman. The word bethulah in ancient Hebrew means virgin. Ol' Matthew, quoting Isaiah (7:14) from the Septuagint, simply got it wrong.

Remember, too, that Mark (70CE)--the first written Gospel--has no virgin birth story. Paul--the earliest of the NT books (15-20 years after the crucifixion)--mentions nothing of it, either. Both would have used such a powerful and miraculous event to bolster their message if, indeed, such an event had occurred. In fact, Paul thought Jesus to be naturally born ...

Galatians 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem under the law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

I think much of the Bible is allegorical in nature due to the unfamiliarity with what we know now...Basically there are some things contained in it that can be explained, and other things that are yet to be explained, but it was the best they could come up with at the time, and much of what we think of it is the best we can come up with to explain it.

I wasnt really a dork but i had one problem...i was TOO nice...Some people strive to take advantage of these people, so watch out

or we have misunderstand the creation. Like I said, the creation was written in a way that the Israelites would understand, however, much can be filled in between each verse, as if much was paraphrased. He said, "Let there be light." and there was light, however, the sun wasn't created til 3 days later. why? I go with the whole ice age theory or meteor theory, seeing as how if there was civilizations before Adam and Eve, not much was recorded of them by them. Perhaps this leads us to possibilities that God started over with us. Think about it, sky in between firmaments of water: it stopped snowing. No vegetation had sprouted: probably after so many years of freezing, they forgot how to grow... also on the third day, the sun, moon, and stars came out....three days after day and night were created, thus maybe the sky cleared up and the sun, moon, and stars appeared for the first time in years.
Ontop of that, the first time animals are mentioned, the Lord said, "Let the earth bring forth..." which perhaps could be that maybe animals came out of their warm caves to look at all the earth. Indeed, I believe the LORD created all things, I just think that this could be the beginning of His dealings with mankind. I'm just looking at possibilities.

God bless

ahh, the old game of re-interpretation!

there is nothing like taking current knowledge and applying it to older writings, is there? This is of course one way to keep ancient texts somehow relevent. Just keep revising them. Of course, you can't do this and also lay claim to any supernatural source for them.

actually, bluefinger has discovered the kabalah and apparently doesn't know it. there are entire volumes written about the the first two verses of Genesis, when the earth was created, then becomes formless and void! personally, I think the flood legends are based on the last ice age, which ended about 10000 years ago, which would be the right time frame, since our species remembers little before that. when the ice melted, large areas of "land" were resubmerged under the sea.

Hi 101!


Per Christian Bible/belief God made everything right?
The world....Adam and Eve.....good and evil.....drought (which kills crops).....birth defects.....just to name a few of the woes that are attributed to mankind.

Ram, I guess being nice does have it's downfalls sometimes.

Zandore, it is true that God made everything. But even with our shortcommings we can be examples. Some may think having a learning disability is a curse. But the only curse is the one you put upon yourself.

What is the Kabbalah? Isn't it like a Hebrew book of magic or something, I dunno. I'll check it out. I'm not trying to reinterpret it, I'm just opening ways to understand it. Because, we think to scientifically now to recieve that kind of understanding. I don't doubt that God is who he says he is and that he created all things, I'm just suggesting that there is much of the story we weren't told because we weren't supposed to know yet. Like, I refuse to think that anyone has God completely understood and knows his exact character and plans. I am open minded enough to receive God fully, I just happen to choose which way I go about it. Do you get where I'm coming from? I dunno, just fill me in on some of your views about it.

God bless

blue, check out:
http://www.kabbalah.info

take a look at the kabbalah and science area.

Shortcomings that the Christian God placed into the system? If God was perfect and everything he made he saw was good then where did the defects come from? If they (defects) came from man or the devil then Gods creations were not made good (shoddy workmanship). If they came from God him/her self then they were not good.

What makes a cleft palate bad? or not good. A child born without a limb not bad? The fact is one sees perfection in what they "see" as perfect. To me a "perfect" person is not one who is "beautiful" But one who is "emotionally whole" or they are what we would call"confident" I talk to people who are handicap. They feel badly just as us. To us the handicap person maybe more intune to what really matters. Not just walking or eating solids matters. But the love. God loves all of us. And the defects are what man call them. I call them art. God is an artist. Possibly he is a surrealist at times. Maybe if we would not worry about the so called "defects" we would be happier.

I agree with you 101, but by your post I see that you have not EXTENSIVELY work with handicap kids/adults have you? Both physically and mentally handicap? I can not say I have but I have work with a fair number of both children and adults.

No Zandore the only child I have been around is a child with celebral palsey. But he is an infant. But I have had friend's with cleft palate and lip. A friend whose child was born with cleft lip. It was just a beautiful baby. No more then that. I have worked with some "mentally challenged" children at my church. But none to the extreme. I know it is hard on the mothers and fathers. Even the friends. But how could a mother's love not be enough?

A mother and fathers love always helps.

Do a little volunteer work with handicap children.

I wonder where I could go and do that?

I will see.

Hospital?
Special education?
Just to start the list.

Thanks. I was thinking about that. I always wanted to work with mentally handicapped or special needs children. We have a school right down from where I work. It is sooo sweet to see the kids outside. From kindergarten to Highschool

101 you have a great attitude towards the disabled , IMO you would be an asset I hope you look into tit. namaste Sheri

Thanks Sheri

I always wanted to help people. I feel like I can help.

Simple. They were made good, then were given free-will(wich means they can be bad by choice).

I'm not sure, but I read somewhere that no one or thing was allowed to eat meat before the flood. So animals did not eat meat when they were on the boat.



Wow, I just read like 10 minutes ago how evolutionists contradict eachother and now I see it's true. Just the other day I read someone say that most of the changes are harmful. I think it might have been manapa who said it.

Afraid Of the truth?
We could set up a debate and let the Judges decide. I post a contradiction and you prove it is not.


How about you post here and Christians will try to proove how it's not a contradiction. After all, it is somewhat on topic.



Very nice and simple way of putting it. Why didn't I think of that. >.>


Here's something funny..

If the bible is fiction:
1) Many lives were lost in a senseless battle for religion
2) We were brainwashed by an imaginary character
3) Time was wasted learning it all these years
4) Our tax dollars went to an imaginary organziation

If the bible is actually FACT:
1) We better start behaving and pray pray pray
2) We better start behaving and pray pray pray
3) We better start behaving and pray pray pray
4) We better start behaving and pray pray pray

True both ways . Not to mention how dumb both sides would be. The bible is true, Atheist look like dumbasses, God isn't true, believes look like dumbasses. But if you think about it, in that case the Athiest get the draft. The christians only look like dumbasses while the Athiest look like dumbasses and have to repent.



Zandore, just like PA said, only Saint Nick. Not the fat ass santa that flies in a sled like you'd like to make it out to be.

So now you are saying the Bible can not stand on it's own?

It is now obvious that you're just picking at him for the hell of it. Taking everything PA says out of context. How childish. How old are you?







The thing I don't see disputed much is how amazing it is(at least to me) how the bible was written in differnt languages and by many different people and it still has accurate scientific facts. One: God said we come from dust(or something), science prooves this true, I think.



I disagree with the trinitarians here also. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that's it. He's in no way the same being as God.




You will see that the events transpiring in modern times closely depict events in the BIBLE. Yet, we still have doubtors among us.

Exactly. You know, I created a topic on the subject of bible prophecy that in my opinion is VERY clear today. And not many people had much to say about it other than "Not true!". The only 2 world wars in history happend recently, wich right after that happend many disease breakouts and starvation worse than there ever was in history. Of course their was wars long while back, but not world wars, of course there was diseases a long time ago, but not wide spread like recenlty, etc etc.. Revelations speaks of all the things that will show that the end is near, and it's not only that just one of these things happening that makes me beleive, it's the fact that they are all happening almost simutaneously compared to a long time ago, just like the bible said. Nation will rise against nation, many diseases everywhere, etc... All happening today. It's not like... 2K years ago a world war, then just recently diseases everywhere and earthquakes all over, that wouldn't make me believe at all.

BYE BYE

PS: Please shut the door when you leave.

Gotta give you credit for humor there. XD



Ive said this a million times before- the Bible hasnt fully been uncovered or "explored". What i mean by this is that a lot of what the Bible is lies beneath the ground...Only recently have some amazing finds by archaelogists and scholars debunked skeptical views of the Bible...A lot of skeptics claimed certain characters were "mythical"- when things that supported their existance came up (King David/Solomon)- their mouths were shut tight...When many skeptics claimed certain places were "mythical" then POW! Guess what? A important place in the Bible is found to be true (Pool Of Siloam) and again skeptics were hush about that...Then there were certain events that skeptics claimed simply never happened and were myth...until....you guessed it- archaelogical evidence pointed to the Bible being correct (Jerusalem being an "Empire" 10th century bc- and not a run down place with a few huts).

Basically all im saying is that the Bible is still being uncovered, and skeptics run from one corner to another- but eventually you are going to be circled and will have to swallow your pride...below are some links for skeptics to down on.

BIBLICAL POOL OF SILOAM FOUND!

KING DAVIDS PALACE UNCOVERED!?

Israel Finkelstein concluded that David and Solomon, if they existed at all, were merely "hill-country chieftains" and Jerusalem a poor, small tribal village. He claims that the myth of King David was the creation of a cult of priests trying to create for themselves a glorious history.The scientific methods for his assumptions, called a "lower dating" which essentially pushes archaeological evidence into a later century and thus erases all evidence of a Davidic monarchy, were laughed off by traditional archaeologists.
Today it's become fashionable to say there was no David, no Solomon, no Temple, no prophets. But suddenly the facts on the ground are speaking, and those outspoken voices are stammering."

KING SOLOMANS GATE AT TEL GEZER PROVES HIS EXISTANCE!

The Bible just keeps proving skeptics wrong, dont worry the skeptics will move to another "myth" in the Bible which will be unearthed and uncovered- cant wait for the next exciting discovery thumbsup.gif

Nice post. Another reason why the bible is more believable in my opinion. It still hasn't been fully "uncovered" but skeptics act as if it is and is 100% false.



Another great post. ::pats you on the butt, I mean back::



Me either.... Did I miss something? ::



I might take a shot at these.(Havn't even read them yet) But as for now I have to get some sleep.



Is there even a point to that? O_o....



What if adam had one more rib than men do these days =P. And about the incest, yeah so what? They were way more perfect than we were today. Awsome genes. They lived over 200 years old! It would probably be very unprobable that the kids would come out deform or anything given how close to perfection Adam and Eve were(or perfect).


By the way, did anyone answer PA's question about the dating of the bible? He said last time he asked it went ignored and I don't see any replies again this time around? At least swallow your pride and say "I don't know". If someone did reply, please quote it for me.



Well if you want to proove that, I think you need to do better than you have, zandore.



So you'd be a believer just because of the people and not what's behind the beliefs?


And if one uses DNA tracing to determine human origins, then Eve needed to live 100,000 years before Adam.

Ever heard of "Scientific Adam"?

Nice language Mr. Christian.

I believe in God, that doesn't mean that I don't curse. I know it's wrong but I still do it and at least I can admit that. =P




Another thought came to mind. Not sure how accurate it is but someone mentioned to me the other day(Might have been my mom, I forgot) that the bible speaks about in the end times the good people will have a harder time getting things in life while the wicked have it easy. I don't know about you guys, but I see that happening these days. I guess it's all a matter of perspective though.

Sherri The worlds poorest nations are the biggest followers of God..
Very true ramster, and it goes with what I said above.

I can't believe this has turned into a competition on who's country donated more....come on guys catch a grip please

Seriously XD.

That's nice, I forgot about the damn quotes. -_-



Read as best you can, I'm too tired to edit it.


EDIT: Fixed it anyway =P

The bible has been re-written how many times????

Another note about the word "day" in the bible. God told adam that he would die the same day that he ate the apple, but did he? No. That is more proof that "day" is not ment as an actual 24 our day. Adam lived for a loooong time before he died.




However many times it's been re-written. By the way, nice signature.

Thanks I LIKE my signature too

But since the bible has been re-written so many times, it's hard to know what to truly believe in!!