The loch is throughly mapped. The biology of it is under constant study, due to the amount of human traffic and its possible impact on it. And, no, even if the dinos were smart enough to swim under the ships (Why would they do so? What in their experience would indicate that this was an intelligent thing to do?), there simply isn't enough space in the locks. Anything that might threaten the ships passing through, and yes, that most definitely includes objects 30 feet or more in size, is carefully monitored. The locks leading to the loch are not deep enough for anything to hide in. Remember, they get drained regularly.

Well, if all "natural" possibilities are ruled out, and people still keep seeing the beasts, perhaps there is a "supernatural" explanation. I don't know why this seems so shocking, considering over half of UM deals with the supernatural, and creatures that look surprisingly like "Nessie" are a part of virtually every world religion.

Maybe they put on Hawaiian shirts and Bermuda shorts and sneak through the locks disguised as American tourists?

It is certainly as much a possibility as Nessie being supernatural. Much like Bigfoot was claimed to be sometime last year.

The thing is that not all 'natural' explanations are ruled out. Many of them exist and do a perfectly good job explaining what people saw. The problem is that many people do not consider the faillability of the human senses and basic human psychology to be something so powerful that it can effect so many people so throughly, despite what the actual objective evidence of it supports.

Hi folks. Just joined and thought I would add my thoughts. I live in Scotland and over the years there have been a lot of theories concerning Nessie. Here are just a few of the more popular (most you probably know).

1/ Plessiosaur or other simillar prehistoric creature.

2/ Some kind of overgrown eel. Very plausible.

3/ Sturgeon. Didn't realise until about 10 years ago that these could grow as big as they do.
Can grow to lengths of 10 - 15 ft at least.

4/Most sightings are due to the different currents in the loch. When currents meet they
can create unusual wave formations.

5/Other normal occurrences mistaken for nessie, e.g. something seen from one viewing angle can be seen as 'nessie' moving through the Loch at the surface but at another angle turns out to be a number of birds flying just above the surface. (this was filmed and shown to be very good evidence until it showed you same thing as birds from different angle)

6/Natural objects coming up from Loch bed. Tree trunks full of gas which can come to surface with a lot of force breaching the surface.

There are many others of course but just remember that the Celeocanth fish was thought to have died out over 300million years ago until they were discovered alive and well in the 20th century. So there will no doubt be other species out there that we thought were gone (or new ones).

hey thinker! i think nessie maybe real. explorations were done by national geographic and at one time when they sent a sonar down at lochness lake, they detected something big move under their boat. an underwater submersible was sent, but the murkiness of the water was the hindrance in finding the "big thing" they detected. it might not be a dinosaur trapped in the present time but, something of a different specie that we still have to discover. archethiutis was proven to be true. one way or another, we could prove the existence of nessie in the coming years.

Well DC, you don't believe in demons, how come you believe in dragons...Shame shame to follow the logic of people who didn't even know what the stars were...much less dino bones

That's my opinion regarding alot of the cryptids, ghosts, demons, dragons, aliens, UFO's and conspiricy theories discussed here...

The premise of my dragon research Frogfish, it that if the God of the Bible is real, the "dragons" discussed in the bible, and related ancient scriptures as heavenly creatures are also real, and confirms why virtually every culture in the ancient world also firmly believed in dragons, not necesarily out of pure ignorance and superstition, but based on sightings of the real "biblical" dragons. But being supernatural creatures, they have left no fossil evidence -- only the inspiration for pictographs, petroglyphs, memories and legends of mankind over the entire world.

I find it curious that you purport to believe in the Christian God, yet dismiss the highest of heavenly creatures mentioned in the original Bible, before the religion was perverted by the pagan zoroastrian and Greco-Roman mythologies that largely molded the New Testament scriptures.

But back to Nessie, since this is the topic, if this creature is indeed one of the heavenly dragon-servants (of which several scriptures allude to their aquatic nature), it might explain why people will continue to see the creature, though it will continue to allude scientific detection as surely as "angels" do.

Your "demons" on the other hand, are not biblical in nature at all, but simply pagan Near Eastern and Greco Roman mythologies to explain mental illness, which the Roman Catholic church absorbed into its own theology, like so many other pagan ideas, in order to popularize their religion in a pagan world.

It is a shame this thread got highjacked!

im sorry but im not even gunna read this because nessie does ot exist they have done radar scopes and nothing has turne up and the first man to see nessie ws a drunk and a lier.the man who photographed nessie later addmited to sticking a fake head on a toy ubmeine or somthing like that.

so there he doesnt exist sorry

Not that I believe either but here at this link are the pictures that you are asking for. Just click on it and it will take you there.
www.nessie.co.uk/hunter1.html

By chance do you have proof?

there is no proof of nessie, or it would have been discovered.

Syow, you have no idea what you are talking about. There have been sightings of "Nessie" going back nearly 1500 years, not to mention sightings of similar creatures in many other more isolated lakes in the vicinity that have nothing to do with tourism. Such lake creatures inhabiting the region are in Celtic legends going back at least over 2000 years but we do not have accurate records about specific events since they left no written records until much later. Many "dragonesque" creatures are depicted in ancient British/Scottish art, jewelry, etc, that were probably inspired by sightings of these "lake monsters".

Yes, we now know that the "1933 Surgeon's photo" is a fake, but this does not dismiss the hundreds of eyewitness reports. There have been faked big foot photos too, but it would be foolish to dismiss every sighting because of a few fakes. And this goes for UFOs, and nearly every other sort of unexplained phenomena.

As for the thread being hijacked, that's just stupid. This forum is about "unexplained mysteries" and much of it deals with the supernatural. In fact that part of it is so popular that they formed a sister forum just dedicated to "ghosts". If you can't deal with discussions of supernatural phenomena, then UM is probably not for you.

This is kind of off topic, but without debating the existence of Nessie (I believe there is a possibilty she may exist but so far there doesn't seem to be any solid proof, all of the evidence has been proven scams...then again we still haven't explored the majority of the oceans yet so who knows) any "fans" may want to check out that new show "Surface." Purely from an entertainment point of view it's a pretty good show and I think Nessie fans would enjoy it.

this is cryptozoology(nessie) and palaeontology(dinosaurs and related topics) not supernatural ,dc. and to believe nessie is a real or Evolution'' needs atleast some real'' scientific evidence.

Jk, yes "Surface" is an interesting show.
Although they want to make it a big surprise, I think you will soon discover that the giant marine reptiles in "Surface" will turn out to be exactly what I have been talking about on this, and the dragon threads. They are the Leviathan, heavenly creatures also called dragons that according to scriptures are prophesized to devour one third of the world population in the "end times". I cannot prove it, but I believe the discussion of my book idea of the "heavenly dragons" a few years ago with some "hollywood types" inspired the screenplay. I need to get cracking now and get it to the publisher before the "heavenly Leviathan sea dragon" bit is revealed in Surface, which will generate much more interest in these theories. Only five weeks to go, I think.

Stay on topic then.

May I have a reference to these nessie sightings from 2000 ago, DC? (not from the bible)

DC, this thread is not getting hijacked...its called skepticism. Learn to deal with it..

There have also been sightings of Utah Raptors, Spiny Algyptus, T-Rex, and Megalodon going back 2-4000 years... But do we think they exist? Well, yes actually... I think Megalodon is still alive..

Kaze, now how could there be sightings of dinosaurs 2000 to 4000 years ago if dinosaurs were not even known until the 1840's when the name was coined? People apparently did see large carnivorous reptiles, but they usually called them "dragons". What they really were is the "unexplained mystery".

Frogfish, pick up any book on Celtic mytholgy and you will find legends about water dwelling "dragons" or "beasties" inhabiting numerous bodies of water in the British Isles. As for "sea dragons" in non biblical sources in the classical world, they are also extremely common. This best non-Christian sculpture of one is on the Peace Monument of Augustus in Rome. The Roman historian and naturalist Pliny the Elder discusses their habits. Being attacked by them was an accepted risk of sea travel. They are recorded as servants of the Greco Roman Gods just as they are the Judao Christain God, and sent to punish people. Their name Ketos, is the word which the scientific name for whales is derived, cetacens. But the ancients knew these were not whales, and depict them as a long necked reptilian beast, much like a plesiosaur but with clawed arms instead of flippers. Sometimes they are thought to be purely sea creatures, sometimes they are winged dragons that just happen to be in the water.

I dont mean they called them dinosaurs, I mean they saw them. Made sculptures and stuff. It really doesnt matter as I dont think they would be around now anyway. I'm pretty sure if nessie is real he's a dino.

I found some good pictures of the Ketos DC is talking about:

From the Trojan war

More Trojan war

However these do not look like dragons...

Vidgange,
You are right, those don't look like dragons. One was probably inspired by a shark or killer whale and the other seems to be nothing more than a large skull hung on a pole being used for target practice. Understand that art historians interpret the designs on pottery vessels with the knowledge they have, and often they are wrong. I cite several references in the book.
Many greek Ketos do look just like dragons though, just as they look much like the the archetype loch ness monster, with a reptilian head on a long neck connected to a larger humped body. The creature in virtually all ancient art that swallows Jonah is a true ketos-dragon, as is the one the the Augustus peace monument being ridden by Nereids. All of these images will be in the book, as well as ancient church mosaics depicting these dragons residing in heaven where they devour sinners in heavenly judgement scenes where they are the "covering cherubs" of God's throne, and sometimes are the living throne itself.

even "nessie professionals" admit that they just "believe" to get the money from tourists. the story behind the creature makes no sense anyway. i'd just give it up.

Ahhh, so you DO have references...what are they? Or are you just bluffing again?

I don't happen to have and Cweltic books, and the internet turns up pictures like Vids...

^^Good luck Frogfish


Never happen!

Frogfish, I have never bluffed about anything I have ever said on the UM forums, and certainly am not going to waste my time making special concessions to a rude and arrogant little 14 year old who conceitedly believes he is wise beyond his years. Quite the contrary, you made no response to many of my statements of evidence that proved the Popes and greatest minds of the Catholic Church acknowledged the existence of dragons as heavenly creatures, Popes displayed dragons as their personal heraldic emblems, their personal bibles depicted God riding on the backs of dragons which proves they were the Cherubim in scirptures that were being ilustrated, etc. Unlike you, I REALLY DO know what I am talking about, and you most certainly do not. I have stated numerous sources time and time again, but apparently that isn't enough for people too lazy or unable to look up the sources I have repeatedly stated. In the current subject of plesiosaur-dragon type depictions in the ancient world, I have stated several times the creature can be clearly seen on the Augustus Peace Monument. Here's a specific literary source if simply stating the name of one of the most important monuments in Rome isn't enough for your. Page 423 of Kaiser Augustus und die verlorene Republic, Phillip vom Zabern Press, Mainz Germay. I've been there and seen it myself. And just because I didn't post this picture you make the lie that I am making it up. I also stated they are on dozens of early christian artworks depicting the Jonah story that show the creature swallowing Jonah is not a fish or whale, but a long necked reptilian creature unlike any familiar animal in the ancient world. There is one embossed on sides of the Roman cavalry helmet from the River Wensum now in the Museum at Norwich, they are painted on walls in Pompeii, they are on many Greek and Roman monuments, and on dozens of pieces of ancient jewelry, one of the most spectacular is a Gold Scythian brooch in the Metropolitan museum of art.

Though you are apparently older, Zandore, you are as childish as Frogfish. If you are too lazy to look up the evidence I have listed time and time again, wait for the book but don't call me a liar. My object is not to post the whole book with all of its illustrations on this forum but to discuss this subject with other interested people who may have other information on the subject. I have said where much of my information comes from. If you both of you lack the ability to find these things on the internet or your local library, that's your fault, but please shut up about me making this stuff up. Everything I have stated is based on ancient sciptual and pictorial evidence and I have stated the sources in every discussion. If you just type "dragon", "seraphim", Cherubim, etc in your computer and go to every link, you will find most of my scriptural sources. If you look through hundreds of art history books, you will find most of the art I have discussed. Both of you stated from the beginning you don't believe there is anything to these studies, so you are not worth any more of my time.

The truth is, you are both such petty, malicious people, that you hope by continuously attacking me, you will create enough conflict and drama to close these threads about dragons, and dragon-like sea creatures/lake monsters, which has already occured through your efforts. Why don't you just get off these threads, since you have nothing to contribute, and let the people interested in these subjects discuss them peacefully?

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you serious? All of this coming from the most disrespectful, rude, arrogant, and self-centered person on the site!!! Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!

All we were asking for was referneces like ANY good scientist/researcher , not some stuck-up, childish, lazy man that his only goal is not to talk intelligently, but to insult others!

If you can't give referneces, everyone on this site will think you are a phony... some already do.


Oh no no no, I'm not asking for the references just for myself, but so that all of UM can see the truth...if there is any


What evidence??? Until you give references, you do not deserve to be called a historian and researcher, nor any other title. For all we know so far, you COULD be making this up.

No one expects you to do that!


Which includes references!


Picture please? Can't find any of those...maybe they don't even exist?

Same as above


Really? Than what does it make you? Oh, I know! Someone that doesn't have resources, and is too stuck up o admit that he doesnt have any. And that he is unwilling to share them with the rest of the world...


Hmmmmmmmm, by your lack of intelligent debate, refernces, and your knack of being adamant and changing the subject by attacking others, you don't


They also believed in Hell, which you don't. So in your mind, they're wrong about hell...In my mind, they're wrong about dragons

Its entertaining to see such a rude and stuuborn person to whine about how others attack him, and that he will not show his refernces...IF there are any

Guys can we just quit this pointless arguing to-and-fro now please, it is getting rather old, and if this carries on the thread may just end up getting closed.

Be civil please...

I'll stop...
All Historians and researchers give references...

Edit: Please note Richdog's above post and go back to the discussion at hand.
-Disinterested.

You still don't get it frogfish. Hell is NOT in the Old Testament scriptures that Jesus endorsed as the Word of God. On the contrary, DRAGONS are. This is why the Popes and greatest theologians of the catholic church acknowledged their existence as Heavenly creatures. As for Hell that is a different matter. That was ADDED so the Pagan Greek converts would have something similar to the Hades of their own theology. The same thing applies to all the Greek demons in the new testament that are never mentioned in the Old. They too were added to make christianity more familiar to its pagan converts. But the dragons were ALWAYS there, whether or not some Churches care to acknowledge it.

It is disturbing to see a 14 year old catholic boy who thinks he knows more about Catholic theology than the greatest theologians and Popes of his own Church, not to mention dismissing the Old Testament as well since it mentions dragons at least a dozen times. Maybe you better just become an atheist froggie, then it is very easy to deny the existence of the dragons in the Bible. You cannot have it both ways.

DC, can you drop your tired theological argument and address the subject in a real world way for a moment?

There is no physical evidence for the existence of a dragon-like creature living in Lock Ness. Several reasons have already been posted to confirm this.

And before you or anyone claims that eye witness accounts are evidence simply because the courts considers such testimony as legitimate, consider this; eye witness accounts of a crime are taken seriously because they deal with human beings. Believe it or not, human beings do exist (if you're doubtful of your own origins, then I suggest you take a walk outside. Those strange creatures walking on two legs and driving cars are what I'm referring to).

Nessie is simply a legend. The only place she exists is in that part of our adult minds that refuses to let go of childhood fantasy.

If you're still in doubt regarding my comment about eye witness testimony, then I suggest you research the Silver Lake monster of 1855.

well than SOURCE, do you believe anything? like UFOs, bigfoot, ghosts etcetc? Because they are just as probable as Nessie, and so is God. Do you believe in God? area there any evidence for him/her?

I'm not saying Nessie is an ol' dino, but maybe something else that really shouldn't be there, like sturgeons or big eels...

Source, it is not so out of line to suggest a supernatural origin for Nessie when people continue to see the creature despite less and less liklihood a "conventional" water-bound colony of creatures could be living there. If that is so absurd, why aren't you berating everyone on all of the spiritual/supernatural forums here, and the whole new sister site about ghosts? Or maybe you too have some kind of quirky emotional hang up over the idea of dragons, as sevral other people have already made quite evident.

Vidgange, I agree. It is quite amusing that millions of people firmly believe in the lost super culture Atlantis, when it it just a story related by a single person, who also firmly believed in dragons too(Plato).

But most of these same people will dismiss dragons, despite confirmation of their existence was recorded everywhere in the world since the dawn of mankind until today, including by the guy that wrote the atlantis story, not to mention the Bible, a book hundreds of millions believe is divinely inspired.

Using this standard, there is probably more "evidence" for the existence of dragons than for any other "phenomena" discussed on UM!

including hell


I can find several places where it is endorsed, and not just in Catholic bibles....want me too?


evidence is a subjective word

I think we should get back on topic on NESSIE!

Yes, I do, but it's not up for discussion in this thread.



I could be sarcastic and simply say you got that right, but I'll answer by defining each of those.

UFOs are unidentified flying objects, I've seen a few of those myself. Do I believe they are extraterrestrial in origin? No.

Bigfoot may be some form of undiscovered primate, but the evidence for it's existence is much too slim, so until one is captured or killed, my answer is no.

If you are referring to ghosts as spirits or some kind of supernatural entity, then no, I don't believe in them.

Nessie as a surviving dinosaur, no (see below).



No.



None that I've ever seen.



Though it's possible that some of the sightings were of large fish in the loch, for them to have been seen for such a long time would mean that there would have to be schools of them (either that, or a single creature with an extremely long lifespan). Extensive scans of the loch have shown that there are no large creatures living in it's depths.

I'd be thrilled if any of the unknowns you mentioned turned out to be real. But based on the evidence so far, I have to remain skeptical.

So, by your reasoning, if something cannot be proven by scientific methods, then the only course is to cloak it with religious beliefs? To me, that sounds as if your closing your mind and choosing to believe, whether proof exists or not.

Also, your statement, "...people continue to see the creature..." is faulty. People see "something" in the loch, but it has not been established that what they are seeing is, in fact, a creature. Several plausible explanations have been given as to what was sighted that have nothing to do with any creature.



This thread is about the possible existence of Nessie, not ghosts. You seem to be the only one who continues to put a religious/supernatural slant to everything.



Emotional hang up? LOL! I think dragons are an interesting myth, nothing more. If anything, it's your obsession with them that makes you seem irrational.

Exactly...religion is not a science...it's a FAITH. Faith is what makes religon so "believable". My priest even said God and Jesus will never ever be proven, but its the faith that makes it special.

.....OOFFFF! I just almost choked on a smoked oyster!!! LOL!


Lapi'che

Hahaha, I almost died when I saw that...

How do you explain the sightings of similar animals around the world?

Local to me we haveWallowa Lake which has as many sightings a year as Loch Ness. Chief Joseph himself told of Nez Pierce legends about the monster in Wallowa Lake - years before the white man ever came to the area. The man was trying to save his people at the time and last thing he would have wanted was to invite tourists to their ancestral lands. Even now the area is remote, even for Oregon. The bulk of tourism there are locals going fishing or camping.

That being said, I will buy that some sightings in some areas have been exaggerated for publicity, and I'm sure Loch Ness has had it's share.

Hey Piney, if you turn on the History Channel right now you will have another chance to see "Quest for Dragons" with the PHD anthropologist Dr. Jones, who descibed loads of dragon legends all over North America. Most of them fly, but also very much at home in the water, like the one Hamellar just mentioned. In every case they were reptilian creatures like the dragons reported viertually everywhere else in the world.

So do you still maintain your original comment that "there are no North, Native American dragon legends"? If so, you ought to see the show. He mentions many specific tribes and shows many artifacts and petroglyphs depicting "dragons" from all over North America.



If Nessie is one of these aquatic, but also flying creatures reported all over the world, it is small wonder they may not get a sonor reading of the creatures no matter how many times they look. It may simply leave the Loch if annoyed by all the activity.

Or maybe they don't exist

Hmmmmmmm, I wonder what tha big flying thing leaving Loch Ness is....Oh well...

What a shame. Another good thread gone to the dragons.

1) It is possible for larger fishs to liv in the loch (however some ought to have been cought sometime...). But this does not mean that they stay all year round; they might come and go through the locks and canal without anyone noticing - which has been proven!

2) There has been scans that's shown something big under the water, several times, that are not a group of fishs...

I don't think it's something like a dragon down there, but some form of life that shouldn't exist there as a natural piece of the enviroment. I think that nessie is a numerous of animals, such as seals, eels and sturgeons....

back on topic!

If you studied the subject more, Source, you would know that Nessie has often been referred to as a "dragon", particularly before people knew what a plesiosaur was. But the point is, all over the world winged dragons are also associated with living in the water, and this would explain why people continue to see these creatures despite the assurance of scientists who probably rightfully claim such a large water-bound group of creaturs were trapped there.

The only reason we know Troy existed is because it was in a greek fairy tale, and scientists scoffed that it really existed. But guess what, Source, it turned out to be true! Oh, and there dragons in that story too, though that part was never included in the movie versions.

Winged creatures are hard to see in the dark frogfish, even large ones. They don't have motors or running lights. I still find it very curious that you have the "faith" to believe in invisible demons and underground fiery hell ("borrowed" by the early christians from pagan cultures), because you think they are in the bible (not in the old testament for sure), yet you don't have the faith to believe in dragons that are mentioned many times in the bible, and unlike demons and hell, these same dragons have been reported in virtually every human culture since the dawn of civilzation. So should we throw out all the books of the bible that mention dragons? Also, are all your catholic saints "fake" too, since there are dragons in their stories? (I will agree about the St. George one being fake, as the dragon was added centuries afterwards). Oh and what do you think the sea monster "Leviathan " is? Unlike whales, it is covered in scales and spews fire. You are very inconsistent in you religious beliefs, picking only those parts of the bible you like, like people being tormented in hell. Fiery hell and invisible demon creatures are far less scientific than the notion of dragons which are part of the very same Christian theology, and unlike hell and demons, are believed in all over the world. St Augustine claimed that the huge and magnificent dragons regularly seen in his time glorified the great God that he believed created such wondrous creatures. He was one of the greatest "catholics" of all time, but you probably don't believe him either.

This thread is so far off topic I am surprised it has not been closed yet.

I agree.